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Can the Counter-Offensive Stratagem be used to effectively nullify the Vexator Mask?

e.g. let's say that I charge several Ork units - including a Warboss - with a Haemonculus (with the Vexator Mask) and 2 Grotesque units.

At the start of the fight phase, I use the Vexator Mask to make the Warboss fight last.

Once one of my charging units has fought, can my opponent use the Counter-Offensive stratagem to make his Warboss fight immediately?

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:
Can the Counter-Offensive Stratagem be used to effectively nullify the Vexator Mask?

e.g. let's say that I charge several Ork units - including a Warboss - with a Haemonculus (with the Vexator Mask) and 2 Grotesque units.

At the start of the fight phase, I use the Vexator Mask to make the Warboss fight last.

Once one of my charging units has fought, can my opponent use the Counter-Offensive stratagem to make his Warboss fight immediately?

It's not 100% clear, and every thread this question comes up devolves into semantics.

You have two contradictory statements, so as per the BRB you have to use TMIR to resolve it. Not a solution I like but that's how it is.

I normally am of the opinion that when faced with multiple restrictions the only legal solution is to take an action that breaks NONE of the restrictions. However in this case we have two mandatory instructions (Fight Last vs Fight Next) which result in a broken rule regardless of the action taken.

The long and short; ask the TO. In my region, they've always sided with the Vexator mask, using the wording of "eligible" unit. Not the way I read it (I read eligible to mean a unit that hasn't yet fought, and not particularly caring about the unit's timing as to when they can normally fight, since the stratagem over-rides that timing anyways), but them's the breaks. It's definitely sufficiently unclear that your TO's decision should hold.

BCB's work-around of "two things modifying the same event at the same time, the player whom's turn it is gets to choose the order they apply" is a fascinating one, and I quite like it, but again, seek TO approval.

That isn't my workaround, at least for this situation. These aren't two events happening at the same time, sequencing has no effect on this specific instance.

Man, I totally spaced on what TMIR stood for. "The Most Important Rule", so you're saying use a Hand of Fate roll for it? 4+ it works one way for the game, and 3 or less the other?

I percieve this as Counter Offensive states "eligible".

The fact that the character "must" fight last (please correct me if I am wrong with how the mask rule works) means that the warboss is no longer eligible as such cannot benefit from the stratagem.

But alas this is merely an interpretation, nothing to state my view is THE view. So from a RAW POV BCB is correct.

But you could argue the eligibility POV. Either way if you believe my interpretation and opponent other, dont argue. Just roll off and have fun until workshop clarifies it.

 Yarium wrote:
The long and short; ask the TO.

...

but again, seek TO approval.

I'm just playing at a local club - not a tournament - so I'm afraid this isn't an option.

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
The long and short; ask the TO.

...

but again, seek TO approval.

I'm just playing at a local club - not a tournament - so I'm afraid this isn't an option.

Even then, just asking another player for a third opinion may help.

 Valkyrie wrote:

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
The long and short; ask the TO.

...

but again, seek TO approval.

I'm just playing at a local club - not a tournament - so I'm afraid this isn't an option.

Even then, just asking another player for a third opinion may help.

True, though I was hoping to get something a little more concrete - so that whether or not my Vexator Mask works isn't dependent on who happens to be in the club that day.

My view is the Mask trumps Counter Offensive. If the unit MUST fight last then it is not eligible.

The issue though is that eligibility is never defined in game terms, which leaves an opening for push back. It's not going to be definitively resolvable unless there is a subsequent FAQ to clarify that definition.

 Stux wrote:
My view is the Mask trumps Counter Offensive. If the unit MUST fight last then it is not eligible.

The issue though is that eligibility is never defined in game terms, which leaves an opening for push back. It's not going to be definitively resolvable unless there is a subsequent FAQ to clarify that definition.

That is a reasonable viewpoint all things considered. It all comes down to what "eligible" means.

The Tyranid FAQ covers this, as the Vexator Mask and Paroxysm have the same effect.

Q: If a unit is under the effects of the Paroxysm psychic power,
can the Counter-Offensive Stratagem be used on it?
A: No, because it is not ‘eligible’ to Fight until every
other unit has done so.

ryuken87 wrote:
The Tyranid FAQ covers this, as the Vexator Mask and Paroxysm have the same effect.

Q: If a unit is under the effects of the Paroxysm psychic power,
can the Counter-Offensive Stratagem be used on it?
A: No, because it is not ‘eligible’ to Fight until every
other unit has done so.

That only applies to the Paroxysm psychic power and nothing else. Having "the same effect" means nothing given 8th edition's bespoke nature.

But it is a useful precedent for determining how to handle the Vaxator Mask and Counter Offensive.

 doctortom wrote:
But it is a useful precedent for determining how to handle the Vaxator Mask and Counter Offensive.

Don't mention the word 'precedent' around BCB

But I agree with the FAQ's answer. The unit is not eligible, so cannot be chosen to fight next.

(You could use this logic to argue that no unit is eligible to fight until all charging enemy units have fought, so the Counter Offensive stratagem never works...but let's not go down that rabbit hole.)