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This won't have a massive effect on my storm bolter vets since they are usually on the move, but it does give some more options which are always good. I think it may give me a little more incentive to use a few normal bolters as stationary objective holders.

One potential use I see is the DW captain in terminator armor. A captain with a storm bolter and Banebolts is quite powerful. Previously, I would give this to a a jet pack captain, but now that he gets the guaranteed range with the terminator armor, he should be a solid option.

Well in all honesty it also makes taking a 5 man Marine Squad with a Heavy Bolter and a Storm/Combi bolter Sgt a much more attractive choice.

Once they get parked on an objective they are fully effective out to 24 inches, and can provide a decent chunk of damage against infantry from that range. Not having a big incentive to close to within 12 inches to get the most out of the large number of bolters marines have to take will be a big impact on how they end up playing.

Not sure if it will make marines an actually interesting troop choice compared to say, scouts who can do the same thing and infiltrate to mid field so don't need to worry about spending turns moving into good position. Or cultists who are still cheap despite being nerfed, or the loyal 32 who are ubiquitous in imperial lists. but at least Marine troops will be slightly closer in the gap.

Part of me wonders....

If it does well, will The Custodes be FAQ'd to get included? I know they aren't Astartes but surely they are bolter disciplined too?

I'm just thinking baout the Praetors with the Hurricane Bolters that are Rapid 6.

 akaean wrote:
Well in all honesty it also makes taking a 5 man Marine Squad with a Heavy Bolter and a Storm/Combi bolter Sgt a much more attractive choice.

Once they get parked on an objective they are fully effective out to 24 inches, and can provide a decent chunk of damage against infantry from that range. Not having a big incentive to close to within 12 inches to get the most out of the large number of bolters marines have to take will be a big impact on how they end up playing.

Not sure if it will make marines an actually interesting troop choice compared to say, scouts who can do the same thing and infiltrate to mid field so don't need to worry about spending turns moving into good position. Or cultists who are still cheap despite being nerfed, or the loyal 32 who are ubiquitous in imperial lists. but at least Marine troops will be slightly closer in the gap.

Marines blow GEQ out of the water with this - even with FRFSRF. IS now have to come within 12" to be as effective. It's probably the cleanest solution for marines that doesn't break much and it's never been thought of here that I have seen.

There are downsides though - Black Legion and other RF become assault traits just hate it, for one.

Marine
2 * .666 * .666 * .666 = 0.59 // v GEW
2 * .666 * .5 * .333 = 0.22 // v MEQ

IS
2 * .5 * .5 * .666 = 0.34 // v GEQ
2 * .5 * .333 * .333 = 0.12 // v MEQ


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:
Part of me wonders....

If it does well, will The Custodes be FAQ'd to get included? I know they aren't Astartes but surely they are bolter disciplined too?

I'm just thinking baout the Praetors with the Hurricane Bolters that are Rapid 6.

They don't need it and it's good that they don't have it.

It's not "Bolters are assault 6 S5 AP-3 Dd3, marines have 1+ armor, cost 10 points, T5 W3" of course Dakka has not come up with this buff.

I also think this is a good opportunity to make Heavy Bolters RF for Astartes. Maybe RF2 would be best with this Beta?
Gives 4 shots (with no -1 to hit penalty) if they remain stationary, or shoot something at 18". No points adjustment needed

Vehicles and Attack Bikes with HBs could be interesting with this change
Would make HBs a worthwhile weapon again. I'm going to send this suggestion as feedback to GW.

-

the_scotsman wrote:
Oh, right, they get the downside of being slow with their Cataphractii armor but they don't get the 4++ invuln save that loyalists get with the exact same armor because reasons. I forgot that they also fethed that up in 8th along with their force swords becoming power swords.

Except they use Tartaros, not Cataprachtii.

Regarding Custodes, no, they should not be included. They are not marines, they are not even soldiers as much as they are warriors. Peerless duellists and general murdermachines, sure, but not in lockstep with each other like the marines are.

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:
Part of me wonders....

If it does well, will The Custodes be FAQ'd to get included? I know they aren't Astartes but surely they are bolter disciplined too?

I'm just thinking baout the Praetors with the Hurricane Bolters that are Rapid 6.

No. Those guys think that attaching a bolter at the end of a long stick is a good idea. They obviously have no idea of how to use them.

I think GW fundamentally misunderstands why Marines aren't good. This change is going to have a pretty minimal impact. Helps GK a little, buffs DW storm bolters a good bit but DW don't need buffs for anti hordes, they suck at anti vehicle. Small boost to primaris. Won't matter for TACs, they'll still suck. Biggest boost is probably for hurricane bolters on storm ravens.

Marines blow GEQ out of the water with this - even with FRFSRF.

Uh no they won't. 90 Catachans will still be racing across the board at 4ppm, getting 12 shots for the same price as a single marine getting 2 shots. Then when they get to melee they'll be doing 3 attacks each, rerolling 1's to hit, vs a marine's 1. Plus there's 3 of them per marine. Guardsmen will still outclass marines in every way.

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:
Part of me wonders....

If it does well, will The Custodes be FAQ'd to get included? I know they aren't Astartes but surely they are bolter disciplined too?

I'm just thinking baout the Praetors with the Hurricane Bolters that are Rapid 6.

As a Custodes player, I actually don't think they should get it. From a crunch standpoint, I want it bad, don't get me wrong, but from a fluff standpoint Marines and their Bolters are two peas in a pod. Custodes don't really have such a close identification with any of their weapons as a Marine does to his Bolter. This should stay a Marine special rule.

Now Custodes do need a few buffs (the FNP to mortal wounds needs to work outside the psychic phase, Allarus are too expensive still, Wardens need a stronger FNP, Telemon and Caladius need a small points decrease, e.t.c.), but not this.

 Crimson wrote:

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:
Part of me wonders....

If it does well, will The Custodes be FAQ'd to get included? I know they aren't Astartes but surely they are bolter disciplined too?

I'm just thinking baout the Praetors with the Hurricane Bolters that are Rapid 6.

No. Those guys think that attaching a bolter at the end of a long stick is a good idea. They obviously have no idea of how to use them.

Deathwatch Watch Master: *rapid fires enemy at 24"*

Nearby Custode: "Hey, how'd you do that?"

Watch Master: "Hmm, oh, that? Oh just, you know. I limber up, do my stretches in the morning. Get my warm-up cardio. Then I put on my armor that doesn't look like Donald Trump threw up on a Blizzard video game character and somehow I'm able to use this weapon better."

cmspano wrote:
I think GW fundamentally misunderstands why Marines aren't good. This change is going to have a pretty minimal impact. Helps GK a little, buffs DW storm bolters a good bit but DW don't need buffs for anti hordes, they suck at anti vehicle. Small boost to primaris. Won't matter for TACs, they'll still suck. Biggest boost is probably for hurricane bolters on storm ravens.

Marines blow GEQ out of the water with this - even with FRFSRF.

Uh no they won't. 90 Catachans will still be racing across the board at 4ppm, getting 12 shots for the same price as a single marine getting 2 shots. Then when they get to melee they'll be doing 3 attacks each, rerolling 1's to hit, vs a marine's 1. Plus there's 3 of them per marine. Guardsmen will still outclass marines in every way.

Just how fast do you think IS move? Either they're walking and shooting or they're running and not shooting. Don't forget to add the cost of the Commander to those abilities.

40 + 15 is an IS squad and a commander order

That's basically 4 marines vs 9 IS (sarge has no lasgun).

Marines kill 2.4 (9.6 points).
IS either move and FRFSRF for 0.5 to 1 marine (if not in cover), which is 6.5 to 13 points.

Marines in cover absolutely smoke them out. If you want to MMM instead, that's fine, but you're not getting shots off and not getting there unscathed. And don't forget morale. And if you flub your commander's advance roll you can outpace order range without VOX, which costs yet more points.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

cmspano wrote:
I think GW fundamentally misunderstands why Marines aren't good. This change is going to have a pretty minimal impact. Helps GK a little, buffs DW storm bolters a good bit but DW don't need buffs for anti hordes, they suck at anti vehicle. Small boost to primaris. Won't matter for TACs, they'll still suck. Biggest boost is probably for hurricane bolters on storm ravens.

Marines blow GEQ out of the water with this - even with FRFSRF.

Uh no they won't. 90 Catachans will still be racing across the board at 4ppm, getting 12 shots for the same price as a single marine getting 2 shots. Then when they get to melee they'll be doing 3 attacks each, rerolling 1's to hit, vs a marine's 1. Plus there's 3 of them per marine. Guardsmen will still outclass marines in every way.

Just how fast do you think IS move? Either they're walking and shooting or they're running and not shooting. Don't forget to add the cost of the Commander to those abilities.

40 + 15 is an IS squad and a commander order

That's basically 4 marines vs 9 IS (sarge has no lasgun).

Marines kill 2.4 (9.6 points).
IS either move and FRFSRF for 0.5 to 1 marine (if not in cover), which is 6.5 to 13 points.

Marines in cover absolutely smoke them out. If you want to MMM instead, that's fine, but you're not getting shots off and not getting there unscathed. And don't forget morale. And if you flub your commander's advance roll you can outpace order range without VOX, which costs yet more points.

Nope, every Guardsman ever is always getting Move Move Move and FRFSRF simultaneously while being in range of a company commander, straken, a priest, and...given the statement above...guilliman?

No, the tacticals would still lose to IS.

HOWEVER, they pretty darn well SHOULD. the IS are overpowered compared to every other basic infantry in the game, and are widely accepted to need at least 1 point increase (that means a whopping 25% for something this cheap.)

Heck, the IS are strictly better than several 5 point units even without counting their superior support options.

cmspano wrote:
Uh no they won't. 90 Catachans will still be racing across the board at 4ppm, getting 12 shots for the same price as a single marine getting 2 shots. Then when they get to melee they'll be doing 3 attacks each, rerolling 1's to hit, vs a marine's 1. Plus there's 3 of them per marine. Guardsmen will still outclass marines in every way.

I suspect you are not factoring some additional costs into those '4pt' guardsmen.

Lol. Go actually fight Catachans with Cadian backups and see how well your marines in cover do. Turn 1 you'll have 100+ dudes MMM in your zone. Turn 2 the 60 of them that survive plus their priests, platoon commanders, company commanders, harker, etc will put 200+ shots into you and charge you. 180 melee attacks later there won't be a lot of marines left. The whole time 15+ mortars willl also hit you as well as vultures, basilisks etc.

That giant mass of melee and buff characters is only going to cost about 700 points. There's still 1300+ points of artillery blasting you. They could easily bring 100 catachans, Harker, a couple priests, a few platoon commanders, a CC, and also 9 basilisks.

CC is 30 points, PC is 15 points. Harker is like 70 I think. Priests are around 50 I want to say. 400 points of guardsmen, 300 points for all the characters you need. 1300 points gets you a huge pile of artillery in guard.

Edit. Hell they could bring a few knights along with that if they wanted to.

 DoomMouse wrote:
Hmmm. This does seem to buff the strongest more than the weakest in my opinion. Can't see why you'd run a bolter tac marine with 2 shots at 24 inches when you can have a deathwatch vet with a SS and storm bolter and FOUR SIA shots at 30 inches.

On the whole, good change though.

Simply put - DW are flat out too good for their points. If there was a meta in which vehicals didn't exist. DW would literally be unbeatable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

cmspano wrote:
I think GW fundamentally misunderstands why Marines aren't good. This change is going to have a pretty minimal impact. Helps GK a little, buffs DW storm bolters a good bit but DW don't need buffs for anti hordes, they suck at anti vehicle. Small boost to primaris. Won't matter for TACs, they'll still suck. Biggest boost is probably for hurricane bolters on storm ravens.

Marines blow GEQ out of the water with this - even with FRFSRF.

Uh no they won't. 90 Catachans will still be racing across the board at 4ppm, getting 12 shots for the same price as a single marine getting 2 shots. Then when they get to melee they'll be doing 3 attacks each, rerolling 1's to hit, vs a marine's 1. Plus there's 3 of them per marine. Guardsmen will still outclass marines in every way.

Just how fast do you think IS move? Either they're walking and shooting or they're running and not shooting. Don't forget to add the cost of the Commander to those abilities.

40 + 15 is an IS squad and a commander order

That's basically 4 marines vs 9 IS (sarge has no lasgun).

Marines kill 2.4 (9.6 points).
IS either move and FRFSRF for 0.5 to 1 marine (if not in cover), which is 6.5 to 13 points.

Marines in cover absolutely smoke them out. If you want to MMM instead, that's fine, but you're not getting shots off and not getting there unscathed. And don't forget morale. And if you flub your commander's advance roll you can outpace order range without VOX, which costs yet more points.

Nope, every Guardsman ever is always getting Move Move Move and FRFSRF simultaneously while being in range of a company commander, straken, a priest, and...given the statement above...guilliman?

Get over yourself dude - some people expect their opponents know how to play their armies.

This really shouldn't be compatible with SIA.

If these rules also buff DW. Nothing changes. Except we have DW vets dropping with 8 shots wounding on 2's with a 3++ for 20 points. GTFO.

Leaves the assault bolters in a strange spot, not a popular choice I know but it makes bolter reivers even less appealing which is a shame because they needed help even before this change.

cmspano wrote:
Lol. Go actually fight Catachans with Cadian backups and see how well your marines in cover do. Turn 1 you'll have 100+ dudes MMM in your zone. Turn 2 the 60 of them that survive plus their priests, platoon commanders, company commanders, harker, etc will put 200+ shots into you and charge you. 180 melee attacks later there won't be a lot of marines left. The whole time 15+ mortars willl also hit you as well as vultures, basilisks etc.

That giant mass of melee and buff characters is only going to cost about 700 points. There's still 1300+ points of artillery blasting you. They could easily bring 100 catachans, Harker, a couple priests, a few platoon commanders, a CC, and also 9 basilisks.

CC is 30 points, PC is 15 points. Harker is like 70 I think. Priests are around 50 I want to say. 400 points of guardsmen, 300 points for all the characters you need. 1300 points gets you a huge pile of artillery in guard.

Given that you said reroll 1s to hit I am assuming you're bringing Yarrick.

So, in a Brigade I can get:

Yarrick
Straken
3x CCs

10x IS

3x PCs
1x Priest
Harker

3x Scout Sents

9x Basilisks
3x Mortar squads

that's just about 2k - you've got 15 points to put somewhere.

Definitely a tough nut to crack - you'd need 1100 points of SS/SB deathwatch vets with a watch master to take out the IS' in one turn.

You'd struggle to pull it off with marines. The biggest benefit of the deathwatch is the durability of the storm shields - you could basically kill the infantry and then spend the rest of the game just slugging it out with characters and the basilisks+mortars down less than a squad a turn.

 Xenomancers wrote:
If these rules also buff DW. Nothing changes. Except we have DW vets dropping with 8 shots wounding on 2's with a 3++ for 20 points. GTFO.

You mean 4 shots, not 8. This REPLACES the RF rules, not adds to them. So SB Vets get 4 shots EITHER at half range or if Stationary. But never 8 shots.

Although I agree, the previous "best bolter bearers" will keep that title. But at least regular bolter Marines get a proportionately better bonus by comparison.
Because SB Vets aren't staying still and are likely within 12" of their target already, but Tac Marines can now just sit in cover happily.

-

the_scotsman wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:
Part of me wonders....

If it does well, will The Custodes be FAQ'd to get included? I know they aren't Astartes but surely they are bolter disciplined too?

I'm just thinking baout the Praetors with the Hurricane Bolters that are Rapid 6.

No. Those guys think that attaching a bolter at the end of a long stick is a good idea. They obviously have no idea of how to use them.

Deathwatch Watch Master: *rapid fires enemy at 24"*

Nearby Custode: "Hey, how'd you do that?"

Watch Master: "Hmm, oh, that? Oh just, you know. I limber up, do my stretches in the morning. Get my warm-up cardio. Then I put on my armor that doesn't look like Donald Trump threw up on a Blizzard video game character and somehow I'm able to use this weapon better."

No, the real reason is that the watchmaster most likely actually has combat experience unlike the custard flask that sat around for 10'000 years.

I think they forgot fallen, they have not those astartes keywords.

Here is the online article if the OP wants to update:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/01/21/21st-jan-introducing-better-beta-boltersgw-homepage-post-4/

Karol wrote:
Nice change. Good for stormbolters, DW vets are really becoming a nice unit. Meh about the beta status as everyone with a non marine faction will just not allow the rules to be in effect, but I assume they keep the change for CA 2019.

Now why GW didn't put this in CA 2018 is a more interesting question. Still very nice.

Pick whichever reason makes you feel better:
1) Because they thought of it about a month & a half ago/well past the deadline to get it into CA.
2) Because they need something to sell you in this issue of WD beyond pretty pictures.

 Galef wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
If these rules also buff DW. Nothing changes. Except we have DW vets dropping with 8 shots wounding on 2's with a 3++ for 20 points. GTFO.

You mean 4 shots, not 8. This REPLACES the RF rules, not adds to them. So SB Vets get 4 shots EITHER at half range or if Stationary. But never 8 shots.

Although I agree, the previous "best bolter bearers" will keep that title. But at least regular bolter Marines get a proportionately better bonus by comparison.
Because SB Vets aren't staying still and are likely within 12" of their target already, but Tac Marines can now just sit in cover happily.

-

I immediately knew people would get this wrong. GW just can't catch a break, they really needed to add an extra clarification here because so many people are going to suddenly think bolters get 4 shots now.

To be extra clear, you don't get 4 shots with a bolter, these rules REPLACE the normal rapid fire rule (which is double shots at half range). Marines now get to double shoot in half range, double shoot at full range if they stayed still, or double shoot at full range while moving if a TERMINATOR, BIKER, CENTURION or VEHICLE.

A Storm Bolter, being Rapid Fire 2, will now still at most get 4 shots, you'll just be able to get them at range if you stay still or are on a stable platform.

cmspano wrote:
Lol. Go actually fight Catachans with Cadian backups and see how well your marines in cover do. Turn 1 you'll have 100+ dudes MMM in your zone. Turn 2 the 60 of them that survive plus their priests, platoon commanders, company commanders, harker, etc will put 200+ shots into you and charge you. 180 melee attacks later there won't be a lot of marines left. The whole time 15+ mortars willl also hit you as well as vultures, basilisks etc.

That giant mass of melee and buff characters is only going to cost about 700 points. There's still 1300+ points of artillery blasting you. They could easily bring 100 catachans, Harker, a couple priests, a few platoon commanders, a CC, and also 9 basilisks.

CC is 30 points, PC is 15 points. Harker is like 70 I think. Priests are around 50 I want to say. 400 points of guardsmen, 300 points for all the characters you need. 1300 points gets you a huge pile of artillery in guard.

Edit. Hell they could bring a few knights along with that if they wanted to.

And this ignores everything that marines have kicking around.

If you want to MMM as fast as you can bet that I'll walk on you and charge.

And let's take a really simply example - 30 DW SS/SB Vets, kraken bolts, and a Watch Master will kill 69 IS (or 83 with vengeance if you moved in range). So...go ahead and do that, because I guarantee you will face Deathwatch and you're not going to like it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ccs wrote:

Karol wrote:
Nice change. Good for stormbolters, DW vets are really becoming a nice unit. Meh about the beta status as everyone with a non marine faction will just not allow the rules to be in effect, but I assume they keep the change for CA 2019.

Now why GW didn't put this in CA 2018 is a more interesting question. Still very nice.

Pick whichever reason makes you feel better:
1) Because they thought of it about a month & a half ago/well past the deadline to get it into CA.
2) Because they need something to sell you in this issue of WD beyond pretty pictures.

Or they really do want to put these changes in the FAQs instead of CA and it wasn't ready for prime time. So they decided to put it out to stop some complaints.

There's also an article on WarCom, because of the leak. It's not like you have to own a copy of WD to use this rule.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
If these rules also buff DW. Nothing changes. Except we have DW vets dropping with 8 shots wounding on 2's with a 3++ for 20 points. GTFO.

You mean 4 shots, not 8. This REPLACES the RF rules, not adds to them. So SB Vets get 4 shots EITHER at half range or if Stationary. But never 8 shots.

Although I agree, the previous "best bolter bearers" will keep that title. But at least regular bolter Marines get a proportionately better bonus by comparison.
Because SB Vets aren't staying still and are likely within 12" of their target already, but Tac Marines can now just sit in cover happily.

-

I immediately knew people would get this wrong. GW just can't catch a break, they really needed to add an extra clarification here because so many people are going to suddenly think bolters get 4 shots now.

To be extra clear, you don't get 4 shots with a bolter, these rules REPLACE the normal rapid fire rule (which is double shots at half range). Marines now get to double shoot in half range, double shoot at full range if they stayed still, or double shoot at full range while moving if a TERMINATOR, BIKER, CENTURION or VEHICLE.

A Storm Bolter, being Rapid Fire 2, will now still at most get 4 shots, you'll just be able to get them at range if you stay still or are on a stable platform.

I really don't see how they could POSSIBLY be more clear about this.

The amount of people managing to feth up reading this made me lose another sliver of hope for humanity from the nothing that remains.

 lolman1c wrote:

 Hanskrampf wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
Do do marines now get 4 shots in half range and terminators get 8? Is it basically double the shots of what you would have got?

No, I also misread this at first.
It replaces the normal rules for Rapid Fire completely.

Ahh, doesn't matter then. Not as big as a buff i thought it might be. Was hoping my terminators could actually take on a sizeable tyranids horde.

Yeah, it works like this in a nutshell -

Tac marines - 2 shots per model at half range, and 2 shots past half range when stationary.

Terminators - 4 shots per model at all times.