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I'll post what I said in the power armor problem thread : I am thinking that marines in general are in a much better place.

This still doesn't address their lack in terms of firepower against heavy vehicles. Hopefully, they decide to nerf DW in some way that prevents them from being the most overpowered marine army ever made.

This still leaves terminators in a weird spot, but unfortunately, they are too expensive still to take even with their guaranteed 4 shots.

Bikers and the veteran bikers I suggested are now bonkers. (Veteran bikers with storm bolters and stormshields + twinbolt guns, 8 shots per a turn?!)

Ravenwing got far better as well, grey knights just need that rule on base on all of their units no matter what.

If I would add anything it would be if the model is within 1/4 range you may fire an additional time in addition to the other rapid fire range. So a Combibolter at 6" would be 5 shots, instead of just 4. (increasing it by 1 not 2!)

This unforunately screws over all the intercessor other options, specifically the stalker pattern and assault bolter which is now worse objectively bare any ranges.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
If these rules also buff DW. Nothing changes. Except we have DW vets dropping with 8 shots wounding on 2's with a 3++ for 20 points. GTFO.

You mean 4 shots, not 8. This REPLACES the RF rules, not adds to them. So SB Vets get 4 shots EITHER at half range or if Stationary. But never 8 shots.

Although I agree, the previous "best bolter bearers" will keep that title. But at least regular bolter Marines get a proportionately better bonus by comparison.
Because SB Vets aren't staying still and are likely within 12" of their target already, but Tac Marines can now just sit in cover happily.

-

I immediately knew people would get this wrong. GW just can't catch a break, they really needed to add an extra clarification here because so many people are going to suddenly think bolters get 4 shots now.

To be extra clear, you don't get 4 shots with a bolter, these rules REPLACE the normal rapid fire rule (which is double shots at half range). Marines now get to double shoot in half range, double shoot at full range if they stayed still, or double shoot at full range while moving if a TERMINATOR, BIKER, CENTURION or VEHICLE.

A Storm Bolter, being Rapid Fire 2, will now still at most get 4 shots, you'll just be able to get them at range if you stay still or are on a stable platform.

Wow - it's almost like they could have written it like you did and everyone would immediately understand. I see now what they ment - but it has about 3x more writing than necessary.

 Galef wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
I'd like a heavy bolter version, mostly because I love nothing better than kitting all my long fangs out will heavy bolters, they just look so cool.

You wouldn't need a separate rule for HBs. Just add a caveat to Bolter Discipline that allows ASTARTES to treat HBs as RF2 (b/c RF3 might be a bit much with all the rule combine)
That's 4 shots if Stationary or 4 shots at 18" with no -1 to hit.
Heck even if you had to move and weren't within half range, 2 shots that hit on 3+ is about the same as 3 shots at 4+, but you got to move

Done

-

How about we simplify things and just turn heavy bolters into RF2 weapons without the need for a special rule?
I mean, would it break any other HB user? is anyone even TAKING HBs these days anyway unless on a unit they otherwise want and are forced to?
All the benefits of your idea, without adding yet another caveat that changes things at random.


(I've said this change would be good before 8th even dropped, but with the new context its even more relevant)

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Also, for the vast majority of us shooting from the hip vs. being stationary and aiming better is plausible.

Hipfire, is anyways a no go with any weapon that has recoil really. (E.g Assult rifles or you know bolters). Exception would be lasguns since they would not really have recoil.

To my knowledge there is not one csm model atm that uses the fething ironsights.

No wonder my cultists did outperform them.

I like this rule. It helps SM bit doesn't make them stupidly broken.

I hope GW show the same level of support for other units that never see any play on the tabletop in a competitive setting. There's plenty of them.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I like this rule. It helps SM bit doesn't make them stupidly broken.

I hope GW show the same level of support for other units that never see any play on the tabletop in a competitive setting. There's plenty of them.

Storm guardians, assult marines, raptors, (do dakkaboys see play now )

WHy don't they add it so that any units with close combat weapons and a pistol gain +1 attack on charge or +1 attack. Got two close combat weapons +2 attacks, got the same type of close combat + 3 attacks.

 Asherian Command wrote:
I'll post what I said in the power armor problem thread : I am thinking that marines in general are in a much better place.

This still doesn't address their lack in terms of firepower against heavy vehicles. Hopefully, they decide to nerf DW in some way that prevents them from being the most overpowered marine army ever made.

This still leaves terminators in a weird spot, but unfortunately, they are too expensive still to take even with their guaranteed 4 shots.

Bikers and the veteran bikers I suggested are now bonkers. (Veteran bikers with storm bolters and stormshields + twinbolt guns, 8 shots per a turn?!)

Ravenwing got far better as well, grey knights just need that rule on base on all of their units no matter what.

If I would add anything it would be if the model is within 1/4 range you may fire an additional time in addition to the other rapid fire range. So a Combibolter at 6" would be 5 shots, instead of just 4. (increasing it by 1 not 2!)

This unforunately screws over all the intercessor other options, specifically the stalker pattern and assault bolter which is now worse objectively bare any ranges.

You are wrong. The last thing marines need is losing the ability to move to maximize damage. They are already forced to deploy in a MFing ball to do decent damage. This is basically a rule that will come into play so little it will be just like aggressors double shot mode basically never coming into play. Double shots if you stand still only really works with long range weapons and on durable units. Marines have nether with PA or a bolter. If it affects SIA DW can increase the range of their weapons and sterngaurd get get 30 inch range which is much more likely to be in range than 24" (considering most deployments start 24" apart). GW just so afraid to make marines actually decent.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Also, for the vast majority of us shooting from the hip vs. being stationary and aiming better is plausible.

Hipfire, is anyways a no go with any weapon that has recoil really. (E.g Assult rifles or you know bolters). Exception would be lasguns since they would not really have recoil.

To my knowledge there is not one csm model atm that uses the fething ironsights.

No wonder my cultists did outperform them.

I don't think this reasoning really applies to half-ton super-soldiers wearing armour with automatic stabilisers, and using a HUD with a weapon-linked targeting reticule showing exactly where the gun is pointing. If I remember correctly, the ironsights are actually meant to be a back-up to the autosenses, not the primary aiming method.

They can pretty much point the weapon wherever, know exactly where it is aiming, and know they can land shots around that point with a predictable margin of error. Marine shooting is better compared to a modern armoured vehicle than a modern soldier.

The new rules represent that increased ability rather nicely I reckon.

You are wrong. The last thing marines need is losing the ability to move to maximize damage

Where am I saying that? If anything i specifically mention intercessors being definably worse.

Regular tacts aren't going to see improvement at all even with this rule.

Sternguard, terminators, and land raider crusader are now far better. Tact marines no, intercessors? Yes, Intercessors are now far better with this rule.

Tacticals are dead long live the Intercessors.

 Asherian Command wrote:

This still doesn't address their lack in terms of firepower against heavy vehicles. Hopefully, they decide to nerf DW in some way that prevents them from being the most overpowered marine army ever made.

This rule change has a knock-on effect. 5 tacs with a heavy would fire the heavy and have a small handful of bolter shots. Now there is incentive, because all those spare bodies can be fully effective without moving too much.

This still leaves terminators in a weird spot, but unfortunately, they are too expensive still to take even with their guaranteed 4 shots.

34 points is pretty ok for a fistanator. Bolter Drill nets you a nice bit of extra dakka on 10 of them. I'm sure the are other combinations to be uncovered. Heretics certainly benefit more here.

Bikers and the veteran bikers I suggested are now bonkers. (Veteran bikers with storm bolters and stormshields + twinbolt guns, 8 shots per a turn?!)

Bikes were already capable of getting within 12", so what this actually offers them is flexibility of positioning, which incidentally is incredibly useful for harassment. What a day when bikes are viable.

This unforunately screws over all the intercessor other options, specifically the stalker pattern and assault bolter which is now worse objectively bare any ranges.

They will need a fix, but easy enough to counts as until that day comes.

nekooni wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
If these rules also buff DW. Nothing changes. Except we have DW vets dropping with 8 shots wounding on 2's with a 3++ for 20 points. GTFO.

You mean 4 shots, not 8. This REPLACES the RF rules, not adds to them. So SB Vets get 4 shots EITHER at half range or if Stationary. But never 8 shots.

Although I agree, the previous "best bolter bearers" will keep that title. But at least regular bolter Marines get a proportionately better bonus by comparison.
Because SB Vets aren't staying still and are likely within 12" of their target already, but Tac Marines can now just sit in cover happily.

-

I immediately knew people would get this wrong. GW just can't catch a break, they really needed to add an extra clarification here because so many people are going to suddenly think bolters get 4 shots now.

To be extra clear, you don't get 4 shots with a bolter, these rules REPLACE the normal rapid fire rule (which is double shots at half range). Marines now get to double shoot in half range, double shoot at full range if they stayed still, or double shoot at full range while moving if a TERMINATOR, BIKER, CENTURION or VEHICLE.

A Storm Bolter, being Rapid Fire 2, will now still at most get 4 shots, you'll just be able to get them at range if you stay still or are on a stable platform.

I really don't see how they could POSSIBLY be more clear about this.

The amount of people managing to feth up reading this made me lose another sliver of hope for humanity from the nothing that remains.

It's simply a matter of getting too excited and not reading it properly. Your reaction seems a bit ... over the top. For both of you.

At the same time, people who want to play wargames should be expected to be able to read 11 line of text and getting an accurate reading of the rules contained there! It's not rocket science. And i'm sure people feel like this is because of case like that that we get a constant dumbing down of the rules, so they're, I feel, correct to be angry like this.

This is a much more reasonable way to handle improving space marine that anything that was suggested in the "The Power Armor Problem" thread. There might be some problems with it, as with any rules change, but I'm grateful GW decided to take this with small buffs.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

This still doesn't address their lack in terms of firepower against heavy vehicles. Hopefully, they decide to nerf DW in some way that prevents them from being the most overpowered marine army ever made.

This rule change has a knock-on effect. 5 tacs with a heavy would fire the heavy and have a small handful of bolter shots. Now there is incentive, because all those spare bodies can be fully effective without moving too much.

This still leaves terminators in a weird spot, but unfortunately, they are too expensive still to take even with their guaranteed 4 shots.

34 points is pretty ok for a fistanator. Bolter Drill nets you a nice bit of extra dakka on 10 of them. I'm sure the are other combinations to be uncovered. Heretics certainly benefit more here.

Bikers and the veteran bikers I suggested are now bonkers. (Veteran bikers with storm bolters and stormshields + twinbolt guns, 8 shots per a turn?!)

Bikes were already capable of getting within 12", so what this actually offers them is flexibility of positioning, which incidentally is incredibly useful for harassment. What a day when bikes are viable.

This unforunately screws over all the intercessor other options, specifically the stalker pattern and assault bolter which is now worse objectively bare any ranges.

They will need a fix, but easy enough to counts as until that day comes.

Agreed to all point.

This is a much more reasonable way to handle improving space marine that anything that was suggested in the "Problem with Power Armor" thread. There might be some problems with it, as with any rules change, but I'm grateful GW decided to take this with small buffs.

Still doesn't address the chapter tactics, knights, etc. (Which is what that thread is about) Which has been the biggest problem for marines for a while this is a great rule but it would help marines till we get rules that supplement the units desperately needing it. This does nothing for the Non-bolters units at all, it makes base units great, but scouts are now an even more valuable troop unit, which is probably the opposite of what GW wants. (Which is easily remedied remove Adeptus Astartes Keyword from scouts and instead have Neophyte or a catchall which prevents scouts from having bolter drills, these are new recruits not veterans).

If they do similar stuff for 'veteran' and give them a special rule it will hopefully make marines far more valuable.

So my basic infantry choice goes up in price 17% and Space Marines now get twice as effective at maximum range...where most of my infantry can't even reach them. Nice.

SemperMortis wrote:
So my basic infantry choice goes up in price 17% and Space Marines now get twice as effective at maximum range...where most of my infantry can't even reach them. Nice.

Well, he wasn't bringing them in the first place, he's now swapping them in for some other, prebioisly wsy better infantry clearing option, if any. You need to compare it to them apples. That's unlikely a doubling in efficiency.

torblind wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
So my basic infantry choice goes up in price 17% and Space Marines now get twice as effective at maximum range...where most of my infantry can't even reach them. Nice.

Well, he wasn't bringing them in the first place, he's now swapping them in for some other, prebioisly wsy better infantry clearing option, if any. You need to compare it to them apples. That's unlikely a doubling in efficiency.

Plus marines aren't very efficient, to begin with.

 Asherian Command wrote:

This is a much more reasonable way to handle improving space marine that anything that was suggested in the "Problem with Power Armor" thread. There might be some problems with it, as with any rules change, but I'm grateful GW decided to take this with small buffs.

Still doesn't address the chapter tactics, knights, etc. (Which is what that thread is about) Which has been the biggest problem for marines for a while this is a great rule but it would help marines till we get rules that supplement the units desperately needing it. This does nothing for the Non-bolters units at all, it makes base units great, but scouts are now an even more valuable troop unit, which is probably the opposite of what GW wants. (Which is easily remedied remove Adeptus Astartes Keyword from scouts and instead have Neophyte or a catchall which prevents scouts from having bolter drills, these are new recruits not veterans).

If they do similar stuff for 'veteran' and give them a special rule it will hopefully make marines far more valuable.

I'm sorry, I was under the impression that hordes were the biggest problem. I mean, that's certainly all I keep hearing about in the 40+ pages about how terrible space marines are. This seems to help with that, especially when combined with the crimson fist chapter tactic, but I guess all that doesn't count (like any advantage SM get).

Also, it's hilarious how people get upset about scouts when that problem is 100% on the laps of the players. I remember the threads getting angry about Scouts because how dare scouts only be as good as a guardsmen, then GW made the change and SURPRISE, they end up invalidating tacticals! It was almost like scouts had a reason to be WS/BS 3!

Seems like a nice little buff - reasonably well thought out for a beta rule. In practice anything that isn't a SIA stormbolter is probably going to notice a defensive buff rather than offensive, as you are better able to hug cover (just like 2nd ed marines).

One point though - "The firing model remained stationary during its previous Movement phase" - how do you all think this interacts with movement in the psychic phase? Warptime is a move as though it were the movement phase, so is probably not a loophole, but gate of infinity seems legit. GK strike squad maxed out and using psybolts/astral aim might be good enough to get GK back on the table as a patrol allied detachment.

 Asherian Command wrote:

torblind wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
So my basic infantry choice goes up in price 17% and Space Marines now get twice as effective at maximum range...where most of my infantry can't even reach them. Nice.

Well, he wasn't bringing them in the first place, he's now swapping them in for some other, prebioisly wsy better infantry clearing option, if any. You need to compare it to them apples. That's unlikely a doubling in efficiency.

Plus marines aren't very efficient, to begin with.

Well they should be, but GW have too many Eldar fan boys. IG maybe top tier but that was either a mistake or coincidence.

This change may have made assault centurions a viable alternative to boltstorm aggressors. With hurricane bolters and double flamers they match aggressors that move while out of flamer range, and have nearly the same effectiveness as standing aggressors if they get in flame range. This isn't model per model, this is point for point. 3 assault cents have nearly the same shooting capacity as 6 aggressors but are better against nearly everything in CC because their drills don't get a negative hit modifier. If you can get them close, these dudes can wreck a bubblewrap and throw down some considerable hate on what is being wrapped.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Spoiler:

 Asherian Command wrote:

torblind wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
So my basic infantry choice goes up in price 17% and Space Marines now get twice as effective at maximum range...where most of my infantry can't even reach them. Nice.

Well, he wasn't bringing them in the first place, he's now swapping them in for some other, prebioisly wsy better infantry clearing option, if any. You need to compare it to them apples. That's unlikely a doubling in efficiency.

Plus marines aren't very efficient, to begin with.

Well they should be, but GW have too many Eldar fan boys. IG maybe top tier but that was either a mistake or coincidence.

The fact that there are tiers at all is the mistake. You should be able to take on any army with any other army and the deciding factor should be player skill.

 Luciferian wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

torblind wrote:
In the olden days rapid fire was shooting more if stationary.

As anyone who has served in the military can tell you, when you are firing while stationary, you do not gain the ability to fire more accurately at long range. Instead, when you hold down the trigger the gun starts firing more bullets.

In fact, the only thing that makes your gun fire more bullets than standing stationary is when a guy runs at you waving a sword - then your gun starts firing FOUR times as fast!

I can tell you quite the opposite. Not only does moving make for less accurate fire, it implies that you're moving to your next piece of cover or concealment. If you're doing things properly then you're doing so while your counterparts fire from their own supported and concealed positions; a favor which you immediately return as soon as you take a stable firing position so that they can then move ahead as well. There isn't a marksman in the world who would be equally accurate on the move as they would in some kind of supported firing position.

Not that this rule really represents accuracy, but there is no question that you are able to place more shots more accurately when stationary rather than moving through the open. Maybe you meant that being stationary does not increase your rate of fire?

I'm fairly sure Scotsman was being sarcastic here.

The Newman wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Spoiler:

 Asherian Command wrote:

torblind wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
So my basic infantry choice goes up in price 17% and Space Marines now get twice as effective at maximum range...where most of my infantry can't even reach them. Nice.

Well, he wasn't bringing them in the first place, he's now swapping them in for some other, prebioisly wsy better infantry clearing option, if any. You need to compare it to them apples. That's unlikely a doubling in efficiency.

Plus marines aren't very efficient, to begin with.

Well they should be, but GW have too many Eldar fan boys. IG maybe top tier but that was either a mistake or coincidence.

The fact that there are tiers at all is the mistake. You should be able to take on any army with any other army and the deciding factor should be player skill.

Never said there should be tiers but Eldar have 'always' been right at the top, more so than any other faction.

Once again GW doesn't think about scaling (Biker Vets with Storm Bolters) or other weapons (Heavy Bolters, Carbines, Stalker variants...), and moreover just sticks them to being a camping army like they already were designed as.

As others have said, it's not going to change things that much, but it's a step in the right direction. Hopefully the first of several small, incremental buffs to marines. Maybe we'll get one that helps them survive a bit more efficiently next. The biggest thing is seeing that GW is aware that there's a problem, and is willing to do across the board rules fixes.

I like these changes. Precursor to a new SM codex which I would expect if CSM get theirs as rumored.

I don't really like this beta rule, even if it might be fun to play in a casual one off game.
The reasons why I think is the whole
"ignore what rapid fire does"
Your creating a game-state where rules exist for rapid fire but are not used and also not applying to all instances of the "bolt" weapon.
I rather have a Bolt Type with it's own rules than this..., then all bolt weapons are FAQ to the bolt type.

That's part and parcel of GW rules unfortunately and one of my biggest qualms with the way 40K in general is handled (don't get me wrong, I enjoy the game, but my version is heavily house ruled). I do have a sneaking feeling though we'll see some more marine "fixes" if only to justify a new Marine codex in the next 12-18 months.

I really wish they would leave rules changes out of white dwarf. White dwarf should be a hobbying magazine and not a rules/points update like CA.

Now I feel like I have to buy this issue of WD to play marines.