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Now up on WHC for everyone so you don’t need to buy WD:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/01/21/21st-jan-introducing-better-beta-boltersgw-homepage-post-4/

Does this mean an upgraded Rhino can now put out 8 shots at 24", or 10 for a Chaos Rhino?

There is something amusing about that

So, let's talk about a few oddballs here for a second:

Land Raider Crusaders now put 28 bolter shots (2x hurricane+1 Storm) at 24" and also 12 assault cannon shots that ignore moving and shooting. That's fun. I don't know if it's amazing, but it's certainly interesting, especially if the 24" RF range is making you feel old school and you want to pack a land raider full of termies.

company veterans on bikes are 40ppm for Storm Bolter/Storm Shield loadout. W3, T5, M14, 3+/3++, puts out 8 shots at 24". Pricy, compared to a deathwatch biker at 25, but -1 to hit and 3++ are big durability upgrades and they put out 1.6x the firepower for 1.6x the cost almost exactly (as compared to SIA vs GEQ).

Ironclad dreads now put out a dozen bolt shots at 24 rather than 6. Meh. I was thinking their little chainsword fist had a storm bolter on it too, but apparently it can only take a meltagun/heavy flamer on that arm. The same is true with all dreadnoughts, apparently - double combat arm dreads don't seem to be able to take double storm bolters, oddly enough.

Good buff on bikers and nice for DW as said. Not sold for everyone else.

Marine shooting guard:
2*2/3*2/3*2/3*4/13=18.23%
Guard shooting guard.
1*1/2*1/2*2/3*4/4=16.66%.

So slightly better in this cirmcumstance - but still well beaten with FRFSRF.

Does put another nail of regret in my auto bolt rifle equipped Primaris though.

If you have combi bolter(2x botler) do they get -1 to hit since it's a combi weapon(you fire both bolter -> 4 shots)?

Or does -1 to hit only apply if it's for example combi-melta/plazma/flamer...? And you fire both bolter and plazma...

 smurfORnot wrote:
If you have combi bolter(2x botler) do they get -1 to hit since it's a combi weapon(you fire both bolter -> 4 shots)?

Or does -1 to hit only apply if it's for example combi-melta/plazma/flamer...? And you fire both bolter and plazma...

You don't, a combi-bolter is exactly the same as a storm bolter in the rules, there is no "pick one profile" rules.

I too, am shocked anyone is confused by this. It's written pretty clearly. I mean, they could have included an example, but it's totally not required.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

cmspano wrote:
Lol. Go actually fight Catachans with Cadian backups and see how well your marines in cover do. Turn 1 you'll have 100+ dudes MMM in your zone. Turn 2 the 60 of them that survive plus their priests, platoon commanders, company commanders, harker, etc will put 200+ shots into you and charge you. 180 melee attacks later there won't be a lot of marines left. The whole time 15+ mortars willl also hit you as well as vultures, basilisks etc.

That giant mass of melee and buff characters is only going to cost about 700 points. There's still 1300+ points of artillery blasting you. They could easily bring 100 catachans, Harker, a couple priests, a few platoon commanders, a CC, and also 9 basilisks.

CC is 30 points, PC is 15 points. Harker is like 70 I think. Priests are around 50 I want to say. 400 points of guardsmen, 300 points for all the characters you need. 1300 points gets you a huge pile of artillery in guard.

Edit. Hell they could bring a few knights along with that if they wanted to.

And this ignores everything that marines have kicking around.

If you want to MMM as fast as you can bet that I'll walk on you and charge.

And let's take a really simply example - 30 DW SS/SB Vets, kraken bolts, and a Watch Master will kill 69 IS (or 83 with vengeance if you moved in range). So...go ahead and do that, because I guarantee you will face Deathwatch and you're not going to like it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ccs wrote:

Karol wrote:
Nice change. Good for stormbolters, DW vets are really becoming a nice unit. Meh about the beta status as everyone with a non marine faction will just not allow the rules to be in effect, but I assume they keep the change for CA 2019.

Now why GW didn't put this in CA 2018 is a more interesting question. Still very nice.

Pick whichever reason makes you feel better:
1) Because they thought of it about a month & a half ago/well past the deadline to get it into CA.
2) Because they need something to sell you in this issue of WD beyond pretty pictures.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Or they really do want to put these changes in the FAQs instead of CA and it wasn't ready for prime time. So they decided to put it out to stop some complaints.

Sure, that works as well. As does speculative reasons 4+. It's just fun to give Karol crap as he's always going on about GWs motives.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
There's also an article on WarCom, because of the leak. It's not like you have to own a copy of WD to use this rule.

Yeah, I know that. It's also up on the GW community.
Did they intend it to be there today? Does it matter?

I mean the Death Guard rule still applies right? As far as I can tell Inexonerable Advance acts on the first criteria of the new Bolter Discipline rule.

Sure, it means they're not quite as great as before compared to other marines but they can still move and get rapid fire at 18".

Please correct me if I'm wrong!

 master of asgard wrote:
I mean the Death Guard rule still applies right? As far as I can tell Inexonerable Advance acts on the first criteria of the new Bolter Discipline rule.

Sure, it means they're not quite as great as before compared to other marines but they can still move and get rapid fire at 18".

Please correct me if I'm wrong!

It's not clear, however I would say that it simply adds an extra option to the list, they get to fire twice at 18" in addition to the other rules. So if you move, you get to fire twice at 18" because Inexorable Advance applies, but you also get to fire twice at 24" if you didn't move or are a TERMINATOR, for example.

the_scotsman wrote:
It's not "Bolters are assault 6 S5 AP-3 Dd3, marines have 1+ armor, cost 10 points, T5 W3" of course Dakka has not come up with this buff.

Ouch.

 Crimson wrote:
No. Those guys think that attaching a bolter at the end of a long stick is a good idea. They obviously have no idea of how to use them.

Eh, bolter-on-a-stick isn't enough of a reason for this not to work, or the DW Guardian Spear wouldn't be called out as working under it...

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I immediately knew people would get this wrong. GW just can't catch a break, they really needed to add an extra clarification here because so many people are going to suddenly think bolters get 4 shots now.

An extra clarification beyond the "You do this instead of using the normal Rapid Fire rules" that it already says? Seriously?

I guess an example might not hurt, but we haven't seen the full WD article yet.

* * *

Given that half the Beta rule text seems to be explaining what a bolt weapon is, d'you reckon the rules team might regret not rolling out keywords (such as Bolt) to individual weapon profiles?

While it's a welcome change, it doesn't really do anything to encourage you to actually take Chaos Space Marines as Troops.

Cultists are still vastly more efficient.

I do find it kind of funny how the Watch Master's Guardian Spear just keeps getting better than the Custodian Guardian Spear.

 DoomMouse wrote:
Hmmm. This does seem to buff the strongest more than the weakest in my opinion. Can't see why you'd run a bolter tac marine with 2 shots at 24 inches when you can have a deathwatch vet with a SS and storm bolter and FOUR SIA shots at 30 inches.

On the whole, good change though.

TAC marines want to be camping an objective laying down a bit of supporting fire with their one heavy weapon and some bolters. Now that their bolters lay down better supporting fire up to 24" they are better at doing that and the one heavy weapon feels more like it fits in with everything else.

It is a little nudge rather than a massive rules change but it is in the right direction.

TAC marines are still not the heavy hitters in the list, never have been, never will be. Its just that they can contribute a little more now.

If I understand the rule correctly, technically it only works with Crimson Fists' bolter relic if that relic is taken by an Ancient, but not if it is taken by a Captain or a Lieutenant...

In the olden days rapid fire was shooting more if stationary.

torblind wrote:
In the olden days rapid fire was shooting more if stationary.

As anyone who has served in the military can tell you, when you are firing while stationary, you do not gain the ability to fire more accurately at long range. Instead, when you hold down the trigger the gun starts firing more bullets.

In fact, the only thing that makes your gun fire more bullets than standing stationary is when a guy runs at you waving a sword - then your gun starts firing FOUR times as fast!

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:
Part of me wonders....

If it does well, will The Custodes be FAQ'd to get included? I know they aren't Astartes but surely they are bolter disciplined too?

I'm just thinking baout the Praetors with the Hurricane Bolters that are Rapid 6.

Only if it applies to Sisters (of both kinds) as well - No I doubt it will happen.

the_scotsman wrote:

torblind wrote:
In the olden days rapid fire was shooting more if stationary.

As anyone who has served in the military can tell you, when you are firing while stationary, you do not gain the ability to fire more accurately at long range. Instead, when you hold down the trigger the gun starts firing more bullets.

In fact, the only thing that makes your gun fire more bullets than standing stationary is when a guy runs at you waving a sword - then your gun starts firing FOUR times as fast!

Argh.

More anti-cc rules, just what the game needs.

Standing still would (in real life) make those shots more accurate though. And since number of shots I'd always proportional to damage, it's not a horrible mechanic.

I have served, but we never practiced "shooting while walking", probably contributing to me surviving the thing and being here today.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:
Part of me wonders....

If it does well, will The Custodes be FAQ'd to get included? I know they aren't Astartes but surely they are bolter disciplined too?

I'm just thinking baout the Praetors with the Hurricane Bolters that are Rapid 6.

Only if it applies to Sisters (of both kinds) as well - No I doubt it will happen.

Or people will complain and they'll take it off hurricane bolters. Or they will, people will complain, and they'll leave it there because 24 boltgun shots out of a 90-pt model is still about 3x more expensive per shot than Guardsmen.

torblind wrote:
In the olden days rapid fire was shooting more if stationary.

Not sure if 4th/5th count as "the olden days" but yeah, back then you always got 2 shots at 12" and only got the 1 shot at 24" if you stood still. Which was dumb
"My bullet goes farther if I aim better" was nonsense, but "I get more hits because I aim better" makes a lot more sense.

-

 Galef wrote:

torblind wrote:
In the olden days rapid fire was shooting more if stationary.

Not sure if 4th/5th count as "the olden days" but yeah, back then you always got 2 shots at 12" and only got the 1 shot at 24" if you stood still. Which was dumb
"My bullet goes farther if I aim better" was nonsense, but "I get more hits because I aim better" makes a lot more sense.

-

2nd edition, I think it was stationary only but my memory may fail me

 Crimson wrote:
If I understand the rule correctly, technically it only works with Crimson Fists' bolter relic if that relic is taken by an Ancient, but not if it is taken by a Captain or a Lieutenant...

Err, none of those models can take the Crimson Fist relic bolter. Did you mean the Primaris versions?

However, you're right the Beta rule doesn't apply if you replace a Master-crafted auto bolt rifle or Master-crafted stalker bolt rifle, only if you replace a normal Bolt Rifle.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
If I understand the rule correctly, technically it only works with Crimson Fists' bolter relic if that relic is taken by an Ancient, but not if it is taken by a Captain or a Lieutenant...

Err, none of those models can take the Crimson Fist relic...

I am obviously talking about Primaris characters.

2nd edition was 2 shots if the Marine didn't move, yes. And it was only Marines, because they're just better.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 master of asgard wrote:
I mean the Death Guard rule still applies right? As far as I can tell Inexonerable Advance acts on the first criteria of the new Bolter Discipline rule.

Sure, it means they're not quite as great as before compared to other marines but they can still move and get rapid fire at 18".

Please correct me if I'm wrong!

It's not clear, however I would say that it simply adds an extra option to the list, they get to fire twice at 18" in addition to the other rules. So if you move, you get to fire twice at 18" because Inexorable Advance applies, but you also get to fire twice at 24" if you didn't move or are a TERMINATOR, for example.

Yes, that's how I'm reading it too. It certainly adds a (very slight) bit more tactical diversity to some units.

 Crimson wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
If I understand the rule correctly, technically it only works with Crimson Fists' bolter relic if that relic is taken by an Ancient, but not if it is taken by a Captain or a Lieutenant...

Err, none of those models can take the Crimson Fist relic...

I am obviously talking about Primaris characters.

Ah, right. I like apples. Obviously I meant I like oranges.

You're right the Beta rule doesn't apply if you replace a Master-crafted auto bolt rifle or Master-crafted stalker bolt rifle, only if you replace a normal Bolt Rifle.

I like how the Intercessor in the image accompanying the Community article doesn't actually have a weapon which would allow him to use the new beta rule...

It should hopefully help marines, but marines are now lacking exclusively against titan units and superheavy.

 BoomWolf wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
If these rules also buff DW. Nothing changes. Except we have DW vets dropping with 8 shots wounding on 2's with a 3++ for 20 points. GTFO.

You mean 4 shots, not 8. This REPLACES the RF rules, not adds to them. So SB Vets get 4 shots EITHER at half range or if Stationary. But never 8 shots.

Although I agree, the previous "best bolter bearers" will keep that title. But at least regular bolter Marines get a proportionately better bonus by comparison.
Because SB Vets aren't staying still and are likely within 12" of their target already, but Tac Marines can now just sit in cover happily.

-

I immediately knew people would get this wrong. GW just can't catch a break, they really needed to add an extra clarification here because so many people are going to suddenly think bolters get 4 shots now.

To be extra clear, you don't get 4 shots with a bolter, these rules REPLACE the normal rapid fire rule (which is double shots at half range). Marines now get to double shoot in half range, double shoot at full range if they stayed still, or double shoot at full range while moving if a TERMINATOR, BIKER, CENTURION or VEHICLE.

A Storm Bolter, being Rapid Fire 2, will now still at most get 4 shots, you'll just be able to get them at range if you stay still or are on a stable platform.

I really don't see how they could POSSIBLY be more clear about this.

The amount of people managing to feth up reading this made me lose another sliver of hope for humanity from the nothing that remains.

It's simply a matter of getting too excited and not reading it properly. Your reaction seems a bit ... over the top. For both of you.