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PiñaColada wrote:
It's a decent enough buff but I'm wondering if it should've been that bolters get +1 to hit when they're in rapid fire range instead, then they'd move upfield a bit more.

That's....not bad. In fact, if you applied +1 to hit across all 3 Bolter Discipline conditions, it gives the same feel as the current iteration, but still encourages you to get in RF range as it's an even bigger bonus in said range.
It would also counter-act army wide -1 to hit penalties in a way

-

Banville wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
My termies wouldn't benefit from the rule as SW ones are purely melee oriented. I don't play primaris so no intercessors.

However the crusader now looks way more powerful as it can evaporate a full unsupported mob of 30 orks with a single round of shooting from 24''. 5 WG bikers also fire their 40 shots at 24'' which is a huge bonus. Other WG wouldn't benefit that much since jump packs dudes or embarked ones will likely fire within rapid fire range anyway. Rhinos are also buffed with their 8 shots from distance.

Grey hunters will benefit very little from the rule but still something.

How would a single Crusader kill 30 orks?

I said unbuffed orks. Which means no KFF, no painboy, and most importantly no other larger units or a warboss nearby. If a large squad takes enough casualties all the survivors run away unless the ork player invests 2 CPs to let them stay, and for an army that is largely dependant on CPs those 2 CPs matter. With average rolls the crusader should kill 15 orks but it will likely have some re-rolls from characters so it can actually kill even more. Re-rolling 1s to hit and wound, typical for a SW army and even more for other SM, means 20 dead orks on average rolls. Assuming the orks lost a couple of dudes to overwatch if they charged and or/the marine player rolled slightly above average and then investing those 2 CPs just for letting 5-6 dudes alive looks like a huge investment. Alternatively you may need just the bolters from a standard troop squad that doesn't have anything in range other than those surviving orks to finish them off. If you are ultramarines and have Guilliman it's even overkill on 30 orks.

Imagine 30 orks that arrived from deep strike, which is their typical tactics now, but if they do so they won't have the LD buff in the opponent's turn, as other mobs and warboss would be too far away. They charge chaff like scouts and then are riddled with bullets by the crusader. Before the bolter buff the crusader could have done that only in rapid fire range, not possible if those orks deep striked too far away from the tank.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Nurglitch wrote:
Heavy Bolters are already some of the most cost-efficient weapons for what they do.

....no?

Really for the life of me I can't come up with a unit that chooses to use heavy bolters in a weapon slot where there are other options besides maybe Leman Russes, who take them because the alternative is Heavy Flamer or Plasma Cannon...who are not exactly paragons of efficiency in 8th.

Cool. I'm just talking about how the numbers break down for the average number of wounds per points caused on targets like other Space Marines. The re-jigging of the points popped them down the list compared to Rhinos and Knights.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Creeping Dementia wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
They either shouldn't receive this buff, or they should cost more. Also, I feel that Stormbolters are generally underpriced, whenever there is an option to take a SB over a normal one, it is a no-brainer choice.

You realize that DW weapons cost more than vanilla Astartes right?

And the fact that Veteran squads, the place where you see most of the Deathwatch bikes and Terminators, don't actually have the Bike or Terminator keywords. So the buff won't actually apply to them. It will only apply to the Elite or Fast Attack versions, which are far less common in Deathwatch lists.
Deathwatch got much less of a boost with this than seen on the surface.

Oh wow, that's hilarious. Even if you Combat Squad them to isolate the Terminators they still don't benefit.

Well, that would be hilarious if that were the rule, but it isn't. There is no mention of having the terminator or bike keyword, it simply states if you are a terminator or biker, so DW vets in terminator armour or on bikes get the rule. I guess the bold is supposed to be a keyword (is there an actual rule that states this?) but it's certainly disputable at the moment.

Also, I think that DW should get the rule. You want a gatekeeper to stop horde armies dominating, especially with the new CA missions? Well, DW will be that gatekeeper. As it stands, it won't vastly affect most DW builds as they are typically vets with SBs that want to move. Granted, get them in cover on an objective and it will be tough to shift, but nothing wrong with that IMHO, not when paying 20pts per marine.

edit: nevermind, the veteran rules mentions them having the keyword under Mixed Unit

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Creeping Dementia wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
They either shouldn't receive this buff, or they should cost more. Also, I feel that Stormbolters are generally underpriced, whenever there is an option to take a SB over a normal one, it is a no-brainer choice.

You realize that DW weapons cost more than vanilla Astartes right?

And the fact that Veteran squads, the place where you see most of the Deathwatch bikes and Terminators, don't actually have the Bike or Terminator keywords. So the buff won't actually apply to them. It will only apply to the Elite or Fast Attack versions, which are far less common in Deathwatch lists.
Deathwatch got much less of a boost with this than seen on the surface.

Oh wow, that's hilarious. Even if you Combat Squad them to isolate the Terminators they still don't benefit.

Deathwatch kill teams actually benefit the most. If you add one Terminator to the team, or one biker to the team, the whole squad gets the TERMINATOR or BIKER keyword... So they can essentially double tap at all ranges with Bolters if you stick one Termie and/or biker in there.

Whilst the unit includes any Deathwatch Terminators, it has
the TERMINATOR keyword; whilst it includes any Deathwatch
Bikers, it has the BIKER keyword;

 Kcalehc wrote:

Whilst the unit includes any Deathwatch Terminators, it has
the TERMINATOR keyword; whilst it includes any Deathwatch
Bikers, it has the BIKER keyword;

Where are you pulling that from, FAQs?

 Kcalehc wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Creeping Dementia wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
They either shouldn't receive this buff, or they should cost more. Also, I feel that Stormbolters are generally underpriced, whenever there is an option to take a SB over a normal one, it is a no-brainer choice.

You realize that DW weapons cost more than vanilla Astartes right?

And the fact that Veteran squads, the place where you see most of the Deathwatch bikes and Terminators, don't actually have the Bike or Terminator keywords. So the buff won't actually apply to them. It will only apply to the Elite or Fast Attack versions, which are far less common in Deathwatch lists.
Deathwatch got much less of a boost with this than seen on the surface.

Oh wow, that's hilarious. Even if you Combat Squad them to isolate the Terminators they still don't benefit.

Deathwatch kill teams actually benefit the most. If you add one Terminator to the team, or one biker to the team, the whole squad gets the TERMINATOR or BIKER keyword... So they can essentially double tap at all ranges with Bolters if you stick one Termie and/or biker in there.

Whilst the unit includes any Deathwatch Terminators, it has
the TERMINATOR keyword; whilst it includes any Deathwatch
Bikers, it has the BIKER keyword;

they don't, only the individual models get the keyword...see Mixed Units.

 Blackie wrote:


I said unbuffed orks. Which means no KFF, no painboy, and most importantly no other larger units or a warboss nearby. If a large squad takes enough casualties all the survivors run away unless the ork player invests 2 CPs to let them stay, and for an army that is largely dependant on CPs those 2 CPs matter. With average rolls the crusader should kill 15 orks but it will likely have some re-rolls from characters so it can actually kill even more. Re-rolling 1s to hit and wound, typical for a SW army and even more for other SM, means 20 dead orks on average rolls. Assuming the orks lost a couple of dudes to overwatch if they charged and or/the marine player rolled slightly above average and then investing those 2 CPs just for letting 5-6 dudes alive looks like a huge investment. Alternatively you may need just the bolters from a standard troop squad that doesn't have anything in range other than those surviving orks to finish them off. If you are ultramarines and have Guilliman it's even overkill on 30 orks.

Imagine 30 orks that arrived from deep strike, which is their typical tactics now, but if they do so they won't have the LD buff in the opponent's turn, as other mobs and warboss would be too far away. They charge chaff like scouts and then are riddled with bullets by the crusader. Before the bolter buff the crusader could have done that only in rapid fire range, not possible if those orks deep striked too far away from the tank.

This makes a lot of not great assumptions. If you're deepstriking 30 naked orks then that Crusader is getting double tap on you anyway. It didn't magically become awesome - that's just bad play.

Nevertheless it isn't coming anywhere near killing 30 orks on it's own.

12 * .666 * .666 = 5.3
24 * .666 * .5 * .833 = 6.7

So, a 300ish point model just killed 84 points of boyz...(and a painboy and KFF cuts that in half)

I suspect someone has covered this already, but why aren't Rubrics on the same list with Terminators, given that they can move and fire with heavy weapons without penalty.

 Galef wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:
It's a decent enough buff but I'm wondering if it should've been that bolters get +1 to hit when they're in rapid fire range instead, then they'd move upfield a bit more.

That's....not bad. In fact, if you applied +1 to hit across all 3 Bolter Discipline conditions, it gives the same feel as the current iteration, but still encourages you to get in RF range as it's an even bigger bonus in said range.
It would also counter-act army wide -1 to hit penalties in a way

-

I was wondering whether a better improvement might have been something like 'Adeptus Astartes and Heretic Astartes add 1 to the Rapid Fire characteristic of all 'Bolt' weapons. So if a weapon was Rapid Fire 1, they would treat it as Rapid Fire 2. Rapid Fire 2 would become Rapid Fire 3 etc.

(I know that's not quite the right terminology, but hopefully you get what I mean.)

No it makes sense. It should also matter on distance, like if your right next to the gun 6" away you should be able to make an additional attack with that bolter So a Rapid Fire 2 becomes a 4 Attacks + 1 Attack.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:


I said unbuffed orks. Which means no KFF, no painboy, and most importantly no other larger units or a warboss nearby. If a large squad takes enough casualties all the survivors run away unless the ork player invests 2 CPs to let them stay, and for an army that is largely dependant on CPs those 2 CPs matter. With average rolls the crusader should kill 15 orks but it will likely have some re-rolls from characters so it can actually kill even more. Re-rolling 1s to hit and wound, typical for a SW army and even more for other SM, means 20 dead orks on average rolls. Assuming the orks lost a couple of dudes to overwatch if they charged and or/the marine player rolled slightly above average and then investing those 2 CPs just for letting 5-6 dudes alive looks like a huge investment. Alternatively you may need just the bolters from a standard troop squad that doesn't have anything in range other than those surviving orks to finish them off. If you are ultramarines and have Guilliman it's even overkill on 30 orks.

Imagine 30 orks that arrived from deep strike, which is their typical tactics now, but if they do so they won't have the LD buff in the opponent's turn, as other mobs and warboss would be too far away. They charge chaff like scouts and then are riddled with bullets by the crusader. Before the bolter buff the crusader could have done that only in rapid fire range, not possible if those orks deep striked too far away from the tank.

This makes a lot of not great assumptions. If you're deepstriking 30 naked orks then that Crusader is getting double tap on you anyway. It didn't magically become awesome - that's just bad play.

Nevertheless it isn't coming anywhere near killing 30 orks on it's own.

12 * .666 * .666 = 5.3
24 * .666 * .5 * .833 = 6.7

So, a 300ish point model just killed 84 points of boyz...(and a painboy and KFF cuts that in half)

Twin assault cannon: 12 shots, 8 hits, 6 dead orks (yeah average says 9 hits would cause 6 orks but 5.something doesn't exist in real games, is either 5 or 6 dudes and it's more likely to be 6 than 5).

Bolters (I assumed a storm bolter in the lot): 28 shots, 19 hits, 9 or 10 wounds (again, 9.5 wounds make no sense), 8 or 9 casualties.

Grand total of 14-15 dead orks.

Unless the crusader was in rapid fire range its damage output was way lower with the older rules. Note that those orks may want to assault something else, not necessarily the crusader so it might be out of rapid fire range. It actually happened several times with my SW that deep striking units were attacking units in my deploying zone but the crusader was too far away to be in rapid fire range.

Painboy and KFFs aren't that relevant as footslogging orks aren't that scary, deep striking ones are. And those ones don't have any defensive buffs. On the other hand offensive buffs on the crusader can be easily factored in since SM usually have characters that give re-rolls anyway. Against footslogging dudes now it can kill way more orks at distance.

The crusader just costs 266 points, and it's also useful to reduce the drops with its transport capacity of 16 models. It will get his points back in a couple of turns of shooting, three at most. A full mob of 30 orks costs between 210 to 225 points, according to what weapon the nob has. We're talking about matches against hordes armies, not against imperium or aeldari soups where there's only anti tank usually and enough firepower to 1-shot a knight.

I like the idea of exploding wounds on 6s, given how bolters are supposed to work. It also has the bonus of the occasional lone SM bumping his kill-count up to 4 wounds at short range. Plus it works for DTTFE and Dakka Dakka for exploding hits.

Crusaders definitely benefit, since they can stay safely behind infantry and skill get full shooting.

Tacticals, though, I'm not convinced benefit. This doesn't make them more efficient heavy weapons bearers, and they can't leverage this nearly as well as Intercessors.


I sort of felt that Intercessors were optimal for aggressive infantry while Tacticals could sit back and use their heavy weapon and stick to cover as defensive infantry, but with the ability to rapid-fire their bolters at all ranges and the 6" extra range, I feel like Intercessors are just going to push Tacticals out of every role, and do it by just trying to buff bolters to be silly.


I really just think that Tacticals need a point or two adjustment, because a 5 or 10 point adjustment [cumulative across the squad] would improve their efficiency as weapon-bearers, and more importantly, Space Marine supporting units need to be buffed or receive cost reductions. A Predator can't compete with a Armiger or Leman Russ Commander [which is now priced in the Predator's cost class], a Vindicator is just worthlessly non-threatening, and the Space Marine special infantry is expensive and easily destroyed, since thy have expensive weapons but no survivability bonuses.


I don't really like this buff, because I feel like trying to make Space Marines fit their cost is just not as ideal an end or an approach as making their cost fit their stats.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

You used 3CP at minimum to accomplish that. Hardly more respectable than Lascannons.

Expected damage from a twin lascannon is poor vs a wave serpent: 2.65 (with Lt and Cap) before the shield kicks in.

So sure, you have to spend a cp for the formation, another to elect and another everytime you want to use the strat. And sure, a WS isn't an ideal target (but it beats out expected damage from 4 lascannons, so hey as I said, respectable).

But in a standard 13/14cp marine army, that's not a bad investment to consider. It's not even the best strat/bolter combo to shoot at a WS (Siegebreaker Sternguards) but it's something that you would have laughed at before. That's what we're discussing, isn't it? What changes because of this beta rule?

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

I don't really like this buff, because I feel like trying to make Space Marines fit their cost is just not as ideal an end or an approach as making their cost fit their stats.

At this point, i am inclined to agree, this is well said.

13 points for 1 model that has no invulnerable save, 1 attack, 1 wound, and essentially 1 shot isn't good enough.

Personally I think there is plenty of design space but it requires a rework of the benefits provided by captains and lieutenants. If space marine INFANTRY, CAVALRY, BIKERs, and DREADNOUGHTs had innate reroll 1s to hit/wound/save, you could provide other buffs via HQs (for example, +1WS, or something) and suddenly they are absolutely worth their points. You could even give several options for buff auras per captain, similar to warlord traits, so that marines actually are generalists. (In this scenario it makes sense to take buff X, but in this game it's buff Y).

None of this will happen, of course, it's just fun to daydream.

 Blackie wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:


I said unbuffed orks. Which means no KFF, no painboy, and most importantly no other larger units or a warboss nearby. If a large squad takes enough casualties all the survivors run away unless the ork player invests 2 CPs to let them stay, and for an army that is largely dependant on CPs those 2 CPs matter. With average rolls the crusader should kill 15 orks but it will likely have some re-rolls from characters so it can actually kill even more. Re-rolling 1s to hit and wound, typical for a SW army and even more for other SM, means 20 dead orks on average rolls. Assuming the orks lost a couple of dudes to overwatch if they charged and or/the marine player rolled slightly above average and then investing those 2 CPs just for letting 5-6 dudes alive looks like a huge investment. Alternatively you may need just the bolters from a standard troop squad that doesn't have anything in range other than those surviving orks to finish them off. If you are ultramarines and have Guilliman it's even overkill on 30 orks.

Imagine 30 orks that arrived from deep strike, which is their typical tactics now, but if they do so they won't have the LD buff in the opponent's turn, as other mobs and warboss would be too far away. They charge chaff like scouts and then are riddled with bullets by the crusader. Before the bolter buff the crusader could have done that only in rapid fire range, not possible if those orks deep striked too far away from the tank.

This makes a lot of not great assumptions. If you're deepstriking 30 naked orks then that Crusader is getting double tap on you anyway. It didn't magically become awesome - that's just bad play.

Nevertheless it isn't coming anywhere near killing 30 orks on it's own.

12 * .666 * .666 = 5.3
24 * .666 * .5 * .833 = 6.7

So, a 300ish point model just killed 84 points of boyz...(and a painboy and KFF cuts that in half)

Twin assault cannon: 12 shots, 8 hits, 6 dead orks (yeah average says 9 hits would cause 6 orks but 5.something doesn't exist in real games, is either 5 or 6 dudes and it's more likely to be 6 than 5).

Bolters (I assumed a storm bolter in the lot): 28 shots, 19 hits, 9 or 10 wounds (again, 9.5 wounds make no sense), 8 or 9 casualties.

Grand total of 14-15 dead orks.

Unless the crusader was in rapid fire range its damage output was way lower with the older rules. Note that those orks may want to assault something else, not necessarily the crusader so it might be out of rapid fire range. It actually happened several times with my SW that deep striking units were attacking units in my deploying zone but the crusader was too far away to be in rapid fire range.

Painboy and KFFs aren't that relevant as footslogging orks aren't that scary, deep striking ones are. And those ones don't have any defensive buffs. On the other hand offensive buffs on the crusader can be easily factored in since SM usually have characters that give re-rolls anyway. Against footslogging dudes now it can kill way more orks at distance.

The crusader just costs 266 points, and it's also useful to reduce the drops with its transport capacity of 16 models. It will get his points back in a couple of turns of shooting, three at most. A full mob of 30 orks costs between 210 to 225 points, according to what weapon the nob has. We're talking about matches against hordes armies, not against imperium or aeldari soups where there's only anti tank usually and enough firepower to 1-shot a knight.

I sure hope you never have to play against a Leman Russ Punisher.

Karol wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:

torblind wrote:
unrealistic setting still requires plausible game mechanics..

Like psychic powers and beings made of magic and cobwebs?

I would say 1/10 of slavic magic lore works like that. Rest is sacrifice, often human and name magic. Seems very realistic to me.

The fluff for my 'soup' is, partly, an homage to stories, tales and sagas from Slavic folklore, with a specific focus on Marzanna, so I do know some amount about the subject and I would not say they are either realistic or plausible.

They are literally 'volshebnaya skazka', or fairy tales.

So why are your Guardsmen carrying lasrifles, they could just shoot heat from their noises, that's not plausible or realistic, but there are demons in the universe so its fine. Why are they in armor when their skin can deflect anything, except water?

Great new rule. It's not what I would have done, but since it extends to vehicles it goes along with what I've been trying out with my marines recently anyways. (Goofy things like running 10 Rhinos with dual Storm Bolters).

I'm really looking forward to playing more games with the beta-bolters.

. . .


The amount of misreading the rule earlier in the thread is bizarre.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Great new rule. It's not what I would have done, but since it extends to vehicles it goes along with what I've been trying out with my marines recently anyways. (Goofy things like running 10 Rhinos with dual Storm Bolters).

I'm really looking forward to playing more games with the beta-bolters.

. . .


The amount of misreading the rule earlier in the thread is bizarre.

Some people need to only read a rule twice to fully understand it. Some people need to read a rule 15 times to understand it. Other people need the rule spoon-fed to them.

Completely irrelevant. Bolter Marines aren't being used because bolters aren't good enough.

They aren't being used because Imperial Knights, Custode Jetbikes, and Blood Angel Captains are a thing.

 vipoid wrote:

 Galef wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:
It's a decent enough buff but I'm wondering if it should've been that bolters get +1 to hit when they're in rapid fire range instead, then they'd move upfield a bit more.

That's....not bad. In fact, if you applied +1 to hit across all 3 Bolter Discipline conditions, it gives the same feel as the current iteration, but still encourages you to get in RF range as it's an even bigger bonus in said range.
It would also counter-act army wide -1 to hit penalties in a way

-

I was wondering whether a better improvement might have been something like 'Adeptus Astartes and Heretic Astartes add 1 to the Rapid Fire characteristic of all 'Bolt' weapons. So if a weapon was Rapid Fire 1, they would treat it as Rapid Fire 2. Rapid Fire 2 would become Rapid Fire 3 etc.

(I know that's not quite the right terminology, but hopefully you get what I mean.)

Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I kinda wish this was what the rule was.
Bolt guns become RF2, Stormbolters/Twinbolters/Combi-bolters become RF3, Hurricane Bolters become RF7, etc.

It still encourages models to get within RF range, but clearly gives you more shots in the long run. And it proportionately benefits regular bolters more, since they do get to double their shots all the time (100% more), while Stormbolters only get a 50% increase.
IMO, this buffs the models that need it most (regular Marines) while still giving a marginal bonus to everything else.

The only downside (if you want to call it that) is that Intercessors would get a massive bonus with this version, especially DW Interseccors.

-

 Insectum7 wrote:
Great new rule. It's not what I would have done, but since it extends to vehicles it goes along with what I've been trying out with my marines recently anyways. (Goofy things like running 10 Rhinos with dual Storm Bolters).

I'm really looking forward to playing more games with the beta-bolters.

. . .


The amount of misreading the rule earlier in the thread is bizarre.

poeple will complain and twist to fit thie narrative, there are a few on th eforum that would complain a cut of classif marines to 6 points per model would not be enough since guardsman are better due to being a point cheaper at that point.

that said i too think its an odd fix but a good one

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Crusaders definitely benefit, since they can stay safely behind infantry and skill get full shooting.

Tacticals, though, I'm not convinced benefit. This doesn't make them more efficient heavy weapons bearers, and they can't leverage this nearly as well as Intercessors.


I sort of felt that Intercessors were optimal for aggressive infantry while Tacticals could sit back and use their heavy weapon and stick to cover as defensive infantry, but with the ability to rapid-fire their bolters at all ranges and the 6" extra range, I feel like Intercessors are just going to push Tacticals out of every role, and do it by just trying to buff bolters to be silly.


I really just think that Tacticals need a point or two adjustment, because a 5 or 10 point adjustment [cumulative across the squad] would improve their efficiency as weapon-bearers, and more importantly, Space Marine supporting units need to be buffed or receive cost reductions. A Predator can't compete with a Armiger or Leman Russ Commander [which is now priced in the Predator's cost class], a Vindicator is just worthlessly non-threatening, and the Space Marine special infantry is expensive and easily destroyed, since thy have expensive weapons but no survivability bonuses.


I don't really like this buff, because I feel like trying to make Space Marines fit their cost is just not as ideal an end or an approach as making their cost fit their stats.

It's not how marines are effective. It's where they can be effective.

It also depends on whether or not tacticals can be better than scouts.

+ Have access to special
+ They get 1 special & heavy per 10
+ 2+ armor in cover - scouts pay an extra point overall for this

A 5 man can cover a good portion of no man's land in cover when they're 6" back from the line. If you just need deployment zone spreads (less of a need since DS change) then pick scouts. Otherwise I can't see the hurt in 5 man PG squads taking up cover.

It's a bit of a no brainer for CSM since it's 75 points for 5 with an autocannon.

 Kcalehc wrote:


Deathwatch kill teams actually benefit the most. If you add one Terminator to the team, or one biker to the team, the whole squad gets the TERMINATOR or BIKER keyword... So they can essentially double tap at all ranges with Bolters if you stick one Termie and/or biker in there.

Whilst the unit includes any Deathwatch Terminators, it has the TERMINATOR keyword; whilst it includes any Deathwatch Bikers, it has the BIKER keyword;

That's not what the Codex says. It says:

For the purposes of determining what models a vehicle can transport, Terminators have the TERMINATOR keyword, Bikers do not have the INFANTRY keyword, and instead have the BIKER keyword and Vanguard Veterans have the JUMP PACK keyword.

Emphasis added. You've quoted the Index when an update was made to the unit when the Codex released.

The unit does not gain the keywords except for transport eligibility and model count purposes. Ergo, a Deathwatch Kill Team with a Terminator or Biker does not gain the full always on benefit of Bolter Discipline, nor does the added Biker or Terminator gain that benefit as they do not have the necessary key word.

All models in this unit will only gain the Rapid Fire bonus for being at half range or for standing still. Still a benefit - backfield camper with storm bolters instead of stalkers - much more flexible and effective.

Honestly, the biggest hit to the Bolter this edition continues to be its twin barreled brother. Never worth sticking with the original when a storm is that cheap.

 Bobthehero wrote:
So why are your Guardsmen carrying lasrifles, they could just shoot heat from their noises, that's not plausible or realistic, but there are demons in the universe so its fine. Why are they in armor when their skin can deflect anything, except water?

Is this aimed at me? If so, you'd be better off asking GW. They wrote the Imperial Guard the way that they are, I didn't. IMO, it's for narrative purposes. But again, you'd be better off asking the people who actually make the decisions, rather than some pleb on a message board.

My point is - and always has been - that GW aims for a thin veneer of plausibility, not realism.

Remember to just send well worded emails to the GW rules team, rather than tasteless complaining, asking about the interaction of this rule and mixed units in a Kill Team. They'll eventually respond if the whole Haarkan issue is any indicator.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Completely irrelevant. Bolter Marines aren't being used because bolters aren't good enough.

They aren't being used because Imperial Knights, Custode Jetbikes, and Blood Angel Captains are a thing.

Am not saying no. But lets say GW removed the smash captins from the game. doesn't matter if by making the gear not work, the stratagem work only on units and not single models etc How would the BA players suppose to play then? They would be like BT or SW. Almost a non entity.

The fluff for my 'soup' is, partly, an homage to stories, tales and sagas from Slavic folklore, with a specific focus on Marzanna, so I do know some amount about the subject and I would not say they are either realistic or plausible.

Cob webs and yeast as an anti septic are a well known "magic" cure to wounds. What is even stranger, when someone finaly did check if a mix of cobwebs of most common spiders in middle europe and bread work well for wounds, they found out that it actually does have a mild anti bacterial effect. One of the univeristies in germany even went as far as puting parts of spider DNA in to one strain of coli bacteria, and now are producing anti septic spider silk for bad healing wounds from burns etc.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Completely irrelevant. Bolter Marines aren't being used because bolters aren't good enough.

They aren't being used because Imperial Knights, Custode Jetbikes, and Blood Angel Captains are a thing.

No. The choice is between marines and guarddmen (or cultists). All those units require CP to function. IG fits that role well, because they are cheap and effective. If marines can be made to be more effective then you've cut away some of that gap.

3 bikes can carry a storm bolter and 3 twin boltguns for 65. With a 14" move and no need to be within 12" they can be places where it suits their durability and still shoot well. It's 55 points for a squad of IS with commander.

16 * .666 * .666 * .666 = 4.7 // GEQ dead

When sitting at 19" the IS can't move to get to RF range.

18 * .5 * .333 * .333 = 1 wound; nothing dead

Bikes are then free to move 14" to be within 5", unload (even 24" beyond the chaff), and charge.

I would say for only 10 points more that is a suitable domination of IS and you can still amp up the bikes with specials (at the risk of losing more points when they die). This rule impact affects way more than just how a bolter kills, but how well the enemy can retaliate. I'll restate my comment above - it's not about how; it's about where.