Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Karol wrote:
But how do you find points for running bolter armed models in a chaos list. You need the cultists chaff, and the rest of points are being eaten by the 3-4 princes and the 1ksons casters. a 75pts csm unit just does not cut it, and your not going to take 3-4 such units. one AC won't be efficient enough and 3-4 aren't good enough to be worth the drop in efficiency of the cultist chaff. Plus if you want under 100pts hvy weapons why not just take a dreadnought.

Honestly, you should be happy they even remembered to add Heretic Astartes to this rule. The fact that Rubrics aren't treated like terminators is probably not something they thought out, it's more likely it's just something they never bothered to consider. The primary goal of this rule was to improve Adeptus Astartes, the fact that Heretic Astartes got included at all is a minor miracle.

It wouldn't be the first time they didn't think of how a new beta rule would affect the Thousand Sons. Conveniently, that first example is also an example of GW recognizing the mistake and correcting it in the final version. They gave us that email address for a reason!

Isn't that what most GW rules are though? Most of them seem poorly thought out, just look at the current Stratagem abuse with warlord traits with Knight Titans.

Meh, I'd rather have a company that iterates on subpar new ideas than one that stubbornly sticks to the original regardless of its flaws.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Karol wrote:
But how do you find points for running bolter armed models in a chaos list. You need the cultists chaff, and the rest of points are being eaten by the 3-4 princes and the 1ksons casters. a 75pts csm unit just does not cut it, and your not going to take 3-4 such units. one AC won't be efficient enough and 3-4 aren't good enough to be worth the drop in efficiency of the cultist chaff. Plus if you want under 100pts hvy weapons why not just take a dreadnought.

Honestly, you should be happy they even remembered to add Heretic Astartes to this rule. The fact that Rubrics aren't treated like terminators is probably not something they thought out, it's more likely it's just something they never bothered to consider. The primary goal of this rule was to improve Adeptus Astartes, the fact that Heretic Astartes got included at all is a minor miracle.

It wouldn't be the first time they didn't think of how a new beta rule would affect the Thousand Sons. Conveniently, that first example is also an example of GW recognizing the mistake and correcting it in the final version. They gave us that email address for a reason!

"... and that’s before you consider the benefits to more exotic armaments like Inferno combi-bolters…"

I'm quite sure that they knew exactly what they were doing with thousand sons, and they didn't give full rapid fire to rubrics for a reason.

I mean, this is already a huge buff for thousand sons, i think that we don't need yet another one without seeing how good rubrics are now.

 Elbows wrote:
Tournament players need to occasionally remember that 90% of the 40K gamers don't run LVO lists each and every time they play 40K. Those people tend to use more than three entries from their codices, thus terminator, bike, and tactical buffs are actually worthwhile.

100% agree.

I was talking about the crusader getting some benefit from the new bolter rule and someone mentioned how the punisher is more effective in comparison. Yes it is, but it's a unit from a different book, from the most broken and undercosted army of this entire edition. I don't play AM, so that punisher being a superstar against hordes is irrelevant to me. Now one of the units I can actually field is clearly improved and may worth its points. Period. It doesn't matter if soups from WAAC players can have more effective tools for that job.

There is a lot of talk on other forums that Sisters should be getting this rule as well, which is frickin' hysterical. Apparently an unmodified nun with a gun should be equal to a genetically and bionically enhanced super human.

Also, am I right in thinking that this rule does not apply to Fallen Angels? They lack the Adeptus Astartes or Heretic Astartes rules.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
There is a lot of talk on other forums that Sisters should be getting this rule as well, which is frickin' hysterical. Apparently an unmodified nun with a gun should be equal to a genetically and bionically enhanced super human.

Also, am I right in thinking that this rule does not apply to Fallen Angels? They lack the Adeptus Astartes or Heretic Astartes rules.

They have faith Religion and guns typically go together.

"God and guns
Keep us strong
That's what this country
Was founded on
Well we might as well give up and run
If we let them take our God and guns"

Karol wrote:
But how do you find points for running bolter armed models in a chaos list. You need the cultists chaff, and the rest of points are being eaten by the 3-4 princes and the 1ksons casters. a 75pts csm unit just does not cut it, and your not going to take 3-4 such units. one AC won't be efficient enough and 3-4 aren't good enough to be worth the drop in efficiency of the cultist chaff. Plus if you want under 100pts hvy weapons why not just take a dreadnought.

The only reason TS will run cultist is to get more psychers and still keep TS detachment benefits.
TS have access to horrors who are more point efficient and provide more bodies with higher leadership.
Rubric can be really resilient because of "All is dust" and other buffs they can get. Their real problem is they don`t do nearly enough damage to be treat and are slow. If they can make 2 hits instead of one with -2 AP and are put in good position they can be really annoying.
In cover + all is dust they are +1 on save, of course you always fail on 1, but -1 means nothing to them and they have invul save.

I don`t think that will put them in tournament lists, but will sure benefit most of the players who like their cool models.

 vipoid wrote:

I think a big part of the problem is that every weapon in 40k is shoehorned into one of 4 weapon types. It seems like it would be much more logical to have 'Rapid Fire', 'Assault' etc. be special rules for weapons, rather than weapon categories.

That way, you can have weapons that don't fit into those 4 niches simply by giving them their own rules.

In this case, bolt weapons would replace 'Rapid Fire' with 'Bolter Drill'. Instead, we have this very awkward and messy switch.

It might also help if weapons had keywords.

+1 for this. It would require a significant change to the core rules though, which probably means an edition change, no?

Marin wrote:

Karol wrote:
But how do you find points for running bolter armed models in a chaos list. You need the cultists chaff, and the rest of points are being eaten by the 3-4 princes and the 1ksons casters. a 75pts csm unit just does not cut it, and your not going to take 3-4 such units. one AC won't be efficient enough and 3-4 aren't good enough to be worth the drop in efficiency of the cultist chaff. Plus if you want under 100pts hvy weapons why not just take a dreadnought.

The only reason TS will run cultist is to get more psychers and still keep TS detachment benefits.
TS have access to horrors who are more point efficient and provide more bodies with higher leadership.
Rubric can be really resilient because of "All is dust" and other buffs they can get. Their real problem is they don`t do nearly enough damage to be treat and are slow. If they can make 2 hits instead of one with -2 AP and are put in good position they can be really annoying.
In cover + all is dust they are +1 on save, of course you always fail on 1, but -1 means nothing to them and they have invul save.

I don`t think that will put them in tournament lists, but will sure benefit most of the players who like their cool models.

I pretty much agree with this assessment, I'd still be very shocked to see a list with Rubricae objective holders win a tournament, but since they're a legitimate offensive threat from your deployment zone now you're not totally shooting yourself in the foot for taking them. If you really hate tzaangors/cultists/horrors then there's an actual argument for taking Rubrics now.

But the list would be weaker and less optimaized. The few bolter shots one gains, do not balance out the droping of a 1-2 DPs or losing all the chaff. Now if 1ksons were 10pts each and you could drop 60-70 of them on the table and a castellan or some DPs with sorc support, now then they would be a legitimate threat. Right now they are just there to punish people playing elite armies. And am not sure those people need more punishment.

I cannot stress enough how busted Rubric Marines would be at 10ppm

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
There is a lot of talk on other forums that Sisters should be getting this rule as well, which is frickin' hysterical. Apparently an unmodified nun with a gun should be equal to a genetically and bionically enhanced super human.

Also, am I right in thinking that this rule does not apply to Fallen Angels? They lack the Adeptus Astartes or Heretic Astartes rules.

I can see why, but I think the more appropriate solution if they still have issues is points, this is really a bandaid to marines because GW is overcosting a 3+ soo much.
Basic bolter wielding power armour of all flavours need spacial rules to be casual play worthy, that's a sign of basic miscosting.

Ice_can wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
There is a lot of talk on other forums that Sisters should be getting this rule as well, which is frickin' hysterical. Apparently an unmodified nun with a gun should be equal to a genetically and bionically enhanced super human.

Also, am I right in thinking that this rule does not apply to Fallen Angels? They lack the Adeptus Astartes or Heretic Astartes rules.

I can see why, but I think the more appropriate solution if they still have issues is points, this is really a bandaid to marines because GW is overcosting a 3+ soo much.
Basic bolter wielding power armour of all flavours need spacial rules to be casual play worthy, that's a sign of basic miscosting.

I play marines, guard and sisters primarily, and all of them can be played in any casual setting without any issues. I can even play all of them to a somewhat competitive level, but at least marines aren't top of the line there, sure. But for casual play they're absolutely fine.

Yeah, rubricae at 10ppm would be crazy but they probably should drop a point or 2. If they do that, plus are ruled as terminators for the sake of these new bolter rules then we might actually see them a bit more. Seeing how cool those models are, how would that be anyting other than a win?

nekooni wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
There is a lot of talk on other forums that Sisters should be getting this rule as well, which is frickin' hysterical. Apparently an unmodified nun with a gun should be equal to a genetically and bionically enhanced super human.

Also, am I right in thinking that this rule does not apply to Fallen Angels? They lack the Adeptus Astartes or Heretic Astartes rules.

I can see why, but I think the more appropriate solution if they still have issues is points, this is really a bandaid to marines because GW is overcosting a 3+ soo much.
Basic bolter wielding power armour of all flavours need spacial rules to be casual play worthy, that's a sign of basic miscosting.

I play marines, guard and sisters primarily, and all of them can be played in any casual setting without any issues. I can even play all of them to a somewhat competitive level, but at least marines aren't top of the line there, sure. But for casual play they're absolutely fine.

I didn't see you couldn't play marines casually, the point was basic bolter power armour ie tacs suck, even in casual play.
They now suck a bit less.
They might actually contribute before they die as those ablative wounds.

PiñaColada wrote:
Yeah, rubricae at 10ppm would be crazy but they probably should drop a point or 2. If they do that, plus are ruled as terminators for the sake of these new bolter rules then we might actually see them a bit more. Seeing how cool those models are, how would that be anyting other than a win?

Rubricae eats Plague Marine's lunch.

Karol wrote:
But the list would be weaker and less optimaized. The few bolter shots one gains, do not balance out the droping of a 1-2 DPs or losing all the chaff. Now if 1ksons were 10pts each and you could drop 60-70 of them on the table and a castellan or some DPs with sorc support, now then they would be a legitimate threat. Right now they are just there to punish people playing elite armies. And am not sure those people need more punishment.

Lol if they made rubric 10 pts i will never play a game vs TS player.
Guard and cultist are the real offenders in the game, since they provide to much options for their coast and even can do dmg.
If they lower the range of lastcannon to 12, then suddenly marines will look amassing.

Ice_can wrote:

nekooni wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
There is a lot of talk on other forums that Sisters should be getting this rule as well, which is frickin' hysterical. Apparently an unmodified nun with a gun should be equal to a genetically and bionically enhanced super human.

Also, am I right in thinking that this rule does not apply to Fallen Angels? They lack the Adeptus Astartes or Heretic Astartes rules.

I can see why, but I think the more appropriate solution if they still have issues is points, this is really a bandaid to marines because GW is overcosting a 3+ soo much.
Basic bolter wielding power armour of all flavours need spacial rules to be casual play worthy, that's a sign of basic miscosting.

I play marines, guard and sisters primarily, and all of them can be played in any casual setting without any issues. I can even play all of them to a somewhat competitive level, but at least marines aren't top of the line there, sure. But for casual play they're absolutely fine.

I didn't see you couldn't play marines casually, the point was basic bolter power armour ie tacs suck, even in casual play.
They now suck a bit less.
They might actually contribute before they die as those ablative wounds.

Of course they suck. Currently they are pointed so that every antihorde weapon in game kills more marines than guardsmen (unless they have Raven Guard/Alpha Legion trait, but even then flamer is more efficient against MEQs than GEQs), while the high points per wound guarantees heavier AT weaponry is far more efficient against MEQs than GEQs because of the lower amount of wounds in the total pool. Morale is mostly non-existent because of all the mitigative effects available to various factions and even the cheap troops have quite low minimum unit size of 10. Many things would work much better if everything was scaled so that minimum unit cost was around 100 for basic troops.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
There is a lot of talk on other forums that Sisters should be getting this rule as well, which is frickin' hysterical. Apparently an unmodified nun with a gun should be equal to a genetically and bionically enhanced super human.

Also, am I right in thinking that this rule does not apply to Fallen Angels? They lack the Adeptus Astartes or Heretic Astartes rules.

Who wear power armor, carry and use heavy weapons just the same way as space marines, have actually better bolters, and treat their weapon as an instrument of divine retribution, and it's training as a sacred task?

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Karol wrote:
But how do you find points for running bolter armed models in a chaos list. You need the cultists chaff, and the rest of points are being eaten by the 3-4 princes and the 1ksons casters. a 75pts csm unit just does not cut it, and your not going to take 3-4 such units. one AC won't be efficient enough and 3-4 aren't good enough to be worth the drop in efficiency of the cultist chaff. Plus if you want under 100pts hvy weapons why not just take a dreadnought.

Honestly, you should be happy they even remembered to add Heretic Astartes to this rule. The fact that Rubrics aren't treated like terminators is probably not something they thought out, it's more likely it's just something they never bothered to consider. The primary goal of this rule was to improve Adeptus Astartes, the fact that Heretic Astartes got included at all is a minor miracle.

It wouldn't be the first time they didn't think of how a new beta rule would affect the Thousand Sons. Conveniently, that first example is also an example of GW recognizing the mistake and correcting it in the final version. They gave us that email address for a reason!

I'm not sure how this is relevant. You are looking at older editions and making justifications based on that. This beta rule is already significant buff to Thousand Sons. Positioning in general should become more meaningful, so giving units bonuses for staying stationary certainly makes positioning more meaningful.

In larger picture looks like GW has no idea what they want troops to actually do, other than work as CP batteries and screens, all the killing power is increasingly concentrated on few specialised units.

 harlokin wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:
Yeah, rubricae at 10ppm would be crazy but they probably should drop a point or 2. If they do that, plus are ruled as terminators for the sake of these new bolter rules then we might actually see them a bit more. Seeing how cool those models are, how would that be anyting other than a win?

Rubricae eats Plague Marine's lunch.

Rubricae are great when not faced with solid strength 2/d3 weaponry. Stuff like plasma melts them (though no easier than terminators, which is more a complaint of how undercosted plasma is). They are really good defensively overall but their lack of speed and damage potential is tough. Getting within 12" with a 5" move is not fun. The fact that they can only get the soulreaper in a squad of 10 is absurd. They are not bad troops but they're costly for what amounts to backfield objective holders in most games. At least SOT are stronger with this rule, the fact that those guys only have the same 5+ invuln as rubricae is mindboggling.

Ghorgul wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Karol wrote:
But how do you find points for running bolter armed models in a chaos list. You need the cultists chaff, and the rest of points are being eaten by the 3-4 princes and the 1ksons casters. a 75pts csm unit just does not cut it, and your not going to take 3-4 such units. one AC won't be efficient enough and 3-4 aren't good enough to be worth the drop in efficiency of the cultist chaff. Plus if you want under 100pts hvy weapons why not just take a dreadnought.

Honestly, you should be happy they even remembered to add Heretic Astartes to this rule. The fact that Rubrics aren't treated like terminators is probably not something they thought out, it's more likely it's just something they never bothered to consider. The primary goal of this rule was to improve Adeptus Astartes, the fact that Heretic Astartes got included at all is a minor miracle.

It wouldn't be the first time they didn't think of how a new beta rule would affect the Thousand Sons. Conveniently, that first example is also an example of GW recognizing the mistake and correcting it in the final version. They gave us that email address for a reason!

I'm not sure how this is relevant. You are looking at older editions and making justifications based on that. This beta rule is already significant buff to Thousand Sons. Positioning in general should become more meaningful, so giving units bonuses for staying stationary certainly makes positioning more meaningful.

In larger picture looks like GW has no idea what they want troops to actually do, other than work as CP batteries and screens, all the killing power is increasingly concentrated on few specialised units.

I'm talking about the psychic focus rule, which was 8th. Originally Rubricae were pretty seriously screwed by it because the idea that they're putting out a consistent mortal wound per unit is factored into their points cost, so when the people started emailing GW about the problem they fixed it by giving Thousand Sons (and Grey Knights, who were in a similar situation) a specific exception to the rule.

This isn't nearly as egregious of an issue, but I do think it's worth pointing out whether GW decides to modify All Is Dust to work with the new rule or not.

PiñaColada wrote:

 harlokin wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:
Yeah, rubricae at 10ppm would be crazy but they probably should drop a point or 2. If they do that, plus are ruled as terminators for the sake of these new bolter rules then we might actually see them a bit more. Seeing how cool those models are, how would that be anyting other than a win?

Rubricae eats Plague Marine's lunch.

Rubricae are great when not faced with solid strength 2/d3 weaponry. Stuff like plasma melts them (though no easier than terminators, which is more a complaint of how undercosted plasma is). They are really good defensively overall but their lack of speed and damage potential is tough. Getting within 12" with a 5" move is not fun. The fact that they can only get the soulreaper in a squad of 10 is absurd. They are not bad troops but they're costly for what amounts to backfield objective holders in most games. At least SOT are stronger with this rule, the fact that those guys only have the same 5+ invuln as rubricae is mindboggling.

I'm sure you are correct, but damage 2/d3 weaponry is also ruinous on Plague Marines, who similarly have a 5" move. On top of that Thousand Sons with inferno bolters are the biggest beneficiaries of this beta rule on the Chaos side, while the Death Guard legion trait of 18" bolter rapid fire (albeit with movement) is now much less special.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

Ghorgul wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Karol wrote:
But how do you find points for running bolter armed models in a chaos list. You need the cultists chaff, and the rest of points are being eaten by the 3-4 princes and the 1ksons casters. a 75pts csm unit just does not cut it, and your not going to take 3-4 such units. one AC won't be efficient enough and 3-4 aren't good enough to be worth the drop in efficiency of the cultist chaff. Plus if you want under 100pts hvy weapons why not just take a dreadnought.

Honestly, you should be happy they even remembered to add Heretic Astartes to this rule. The fact that Rubrics aren't treated like terminators is probably not something they thought out, it's more likely it's just something they never bothered to consider. The primary goal of this rule was to improve Adeptus Astartes, the fact that Heretic Astartes got included at all is a minor miracle.

It wouldn't be the first time they didn't think of how a new beta rule would affect the Thousand Sons. Conveniently, that first example is also an example of GW recognizing the mistake and correcting it in the final version. They gave us that email address for a reason!

I'm not sure how this is relevant. You are looking at older editions and making justifications based on that. This beta rule is already significant buff to Thousand Sons. Positioning in general should become more meaningful, so giving units bonuses for staying stationary certainly makes positioning more meaningful.

In larger picture looks like GW has no idea what they want troops to actually do, other than work as CP batteries and screens, all the killing power is increasingly concentrated on few specialised units.

I'm talking about the psychic focus rule, which was 8th. Originally Rubricae were pretty seriously screwed by it because the idea that they're putting out a consistent mortal wound per unit is factored into their points cost, so when the people started emailing GW about the problem they fixed it by giving Thousand Sons (and Grey Knights, who were in a similar situation) a specific exception to the rule.

This isn't nearly as egregious of an issue, but I do think it's worth pointing out whether GW decides to modify All Is Dust to work with the new rule or not.

Who is actually using the aspirings to cast spells? Every perils is 2d3 rubrics dead instantly. Noone is casting with their aspirings. They are basically sargeants with force staffs. Their only actual use is to help complete the psyker trio required for the cabalistic focus stratagem.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

Ghorgul wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Karol wrote:
But how do you find points for running bolter armed models in a chaos list. You need the cultists chaff, and the rest of points are being eaten by the 3-4 princes and the 1ksons casters. a 75pts csm unit just does not cut it, and your not going to take 3-4 such units. one AC won't be efficient enough and 3-4 aren't good enough to be worth the drop in efficiency of the cultist chaff. Plus if you want under 100pts hvy weapons why not just take a dreadnought.

Honestly, you should be happy they even remembered to add Heretic Astartes to this rule. The fact that Rubrics aren't treated like terminators is probably not something they thought out, it's more likely it's just something they never bothered to consider. The primary goal of this rule was to improve Adeptus Astartes, the fact that Heretic Astartes got included at all is a minor miracle.

It wouldn't be the first time they didn't think of how a new beta rule would affect the Thousand Sons. Conveniently, that first example is also an example of GW recognizing the mistake and correcting it in the final version. They gave us that email address for a reason!

I'm not sure how this is relevant. You are looking at older editions and making justifications based on that. This beta rule is already significant buff to Thousand Sons. Positioning in general should become more meaningful, so giving units bonuses for staying stationary certainly makes positioning more meaningful.

In larger picture looks like GW has no idea what they want troops to actually do, other than work as CP batteries and screens, all the killing power is increasingly concentrated on few specialised units.

I'm talking about the psychic focus rule, which was 8th. Originally Rubricae were pretty seriously screwed by it because the idea that they're putting out a consistent mortal wound per unit is factored into their points cost, so when the people started emailing GW about the problem they fixed it by giving Thousand Sons (and Grey Knights, who were in a similar situation) a specific exception to the rule.

This isn't nearly as egregious of an issue, but I do think it's worth pointing out whether GW decides to modify All Is Dust to work with the new rule or not.

Who is actually using the aspirings to cast spells? Every perils is 2d3 rubrics dead instantly. Noone is casting with their aspirings. They are basically sargeants with force staffs. Their only actual use is to help complete the psyker trio required for the cabalistic focus stratagem.

I`m sure most of the people are using their aspirings to cast spells.

Yeah, just make sure to cast Gaze of Fate before.

Rubrics with this change have definitely rised among the best elite troops in the game. Maybe the best.

They're a lot better off, no doubt. But no way in hell are they better than deathwatch veterans with stormbolters and stormshields. Slap in a singular terminator for access to a 2+ save and that unit is incredibly tough and has damage potential out the wazoo

5 rubrics in cover holding an objective are quite the immovable object, that is true. And now they can actually harass enemies enough to draw attention.

Especially in TS detachments they are also troops, no need to take them from your elite slots.

Point for point though, they are worse than scarab occults. A SOT is practically two rubrics glued to each other for the same points in literally all aspects. Only the SOT also gets a power weapon, free deepstrike, combi bolter on the aspiring instead of pistol, +1 armor save and the option for hellyfire missiles for 15 pts only.

The only thing rubrics have going for them is that All is dust on them actually makes sense, and that they can have cheaper MSU.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
5 rubrics in cover holding an objective are quite the immovable object, that is true. And now they can actually harass enemies enough to draw attention.

Especially in TS detachments they are also troops, no need to take them from your elite slots.

Point for point though, they are worse than scarab occults. A SOT is practically two rubrics glued to each other for the same points in literally all aspects. Only the SOT also gets a power weapon, free deepstrike, combi bolter on the aspiring instead of pistol, +1 armor save and the option for hellyfire missiles for 15 pts only.

The only thing rubrics have going for them is that All is dust on them actually makes sense, and that they can have cheaper MSU.

And that they are troops.