CapRichard wrote:
I read this rule as: double potshots for all objective camper/long range support units. Yey.

 generalchaos34 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
"Fluff wise any human having the same to hit roll as a space marine is an absolute joke."

Fluffwise, the average sub-decade Battle Brother has the same to-hit roll as an Exarch who has done nothing but his path for millenia.

Fluffwise, some random sub-century Librarian chump has the same to-hit as Asurman, a pre-fall hero of the Eldar people who predates the Empire itself.

There just aren't enough ranges. Theres blind (6+), poorly trained (5+), well trained (4+), super-well-trained (3+) and heroic (2+). They need to jam every skill level possible into that small range.

Precisely, also its a game....so theres that too =P I blame the warp.

Now back to the meat of this board. I just noticed for 276 points your average repulsor loaded with storm bolters and onslaught/HBs is now going to average 24 Str 5 shots and 20 str 4 shots at around 24". Throw that on top of having a trailing Captain/Guilliman and the 10 man intercessor squad inside with the new Indomitous strategem and it looks like A LOT of things can die. Do it twice for maximum destruction for under 800 points. Id love to do this with a Valiant or a Gallant leading the way to REALLY mess with your opponents target priority.

Once those marines are disembarked from the repulsor. A Castellan realistically 1 shot both those targets without even allowing a saving throw. Yeah it's true that unit under the Gman buff can murderize a large swath of chaff units but it is simply unplayable in game terms.

Im beginning to think units like the Castellan are really removing the fun from this game.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
"Fluff wise any human having the same to hit roll as a space marine is an absolute joke."

Fluffwise, the average sub-decade Battle Brother has the same to-hit roll as an Exarch who has done nothing but his path for millenia.

Fluffwise, some random sub-century Librarian chump has the same to-hit as Asurman, a pre-fall hero of the Eldar people who predates the Empire itself.

There just aren't enough ranges. Theres blind (6+), poorly trained (5+), well trained (4+), super-well-trained (3+) and heroic (2+). They need to jam every skill level possible into that small range.

Precisely, also its a game....so theres that too =P I blame the warp.

Now back to the meat of this board. I just noticed for 276 points your average repulsor loaded with storm bolters and onslaught/HBs is now going to average 24 Str 5 shots and 20 str 4 shots at around 24". Throw that on top of having a trailing Captain/Guilliman and the 10 man intercessor squad inside with the new Indomitous strategem and it looks like A LOT of things can die. Do it twice for maximum destruction for under 800 points. Id love to do this with a Valiant or a Gallant leading the way to REALLY mess with your opponents target priority.

Once those marines are disembarked from the repulsor. A Castellan realistically 1 shot both those targets without even allowing a saving throw. Yeah it's true that unit under the Gman buff can murderize a large swath of chaff units but it is simply unplayable in game terms.

Im beginning to think units like the Castellan are really removing the fun from this game.

OFC they are - with all it's buffs from WL trait and relic it's easily a 1000 point unit. You get it for 600 points.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yeah you totally schooled me there...not even sure why that is relevant other than the fact I was right that they were OP and guard are still REALLY OP. You could literally give all tacs storm bolters for 0 cost and infantry would outperform them.

 fraser1191 wrote:

CapRichard wrote:
I read this rule as: double potshots for all objective camper/long range support units. Yey.

Yeah first thing I thought when I read the rule was: how would this have affected my last game? It wouldn't have

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is certainly a marine buff but it's the worst kind of buff. It just make the strongest marines stronger (DW) and doesn't help the bad units like tactical marines.

 Formosa wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Hey, since were all complaining about about being underpowered and under represented with bolter discipline, how about letting my Plague Marines fire their bolters as pistols in CC?

I quite like that idea

 Xenomancers wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Once those marines are disembarked from the repulsor. A Castellan realistically 1 shot both those targets without even allowing a saving throw. Yeah it's true that unit under the Gman buff can murderize a large swath of chaff units but it is simply unplayable in game terms.

Im beginning to think units like the Castellan are really removing the fun from this game.

OFC they are - with all it's buffs from WL trait and relic it's easily a 1000 point unit. You get it for 600 points.

novembermike wrote:
I'm not sure that the rule would make sense for Sisters thematically. Marines are the all range, all strategies, tactically flexible force. Sisters are the melta, flamer and bolter zealots that run at you and knock your teeth in. Giving them rules that promote sitting at 24" doesn't really seem consistent with what the army pushes.

 Asherian Command wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Sisters are far more common than marines. I forget if which novel in the Sisters omnibus goes into, but pretty much any world with an ecclesiarchy prescience will have sisters of battle present, possibly in great numbers.

They are shown as having the numbers and skill to overwhelm the local PDF with only some difficulty. If there are only a million or so marines, there are likely 10s or 100s of millions of sisters. Compared to the IG that's small but it's still a lot of nuns with guns.

I would say billions. Not millions.

There are trillions of guardsmen. Billions of sisters of battle makes sense considering how they are cast aside so easily.

To answer your Question Luciferian in terms of meta sisters have faith, no real good stratagems or characters currently apart from Celest, but they are somewhat playable. Hence my suggestion of giving them different types of bolter shells that are unique to them. (or also for grey knights *cough*)

kurhanik wrote:

novembermike wrote:
I'm not sure that the rule would make sense for Sisters thematically. Marines are the all range, all strategies, tactically flexible force. Sisters are the melta, flamer and bolter zealots that run at you and knock your teeth in. Giving them rules that promote sitting at 24" doesn't really seem consistent with what the army pushes.

Yeah, I'm fine with them not getting it, but considering Sisters don't have bikers, terminator armor, etc, they wouldn't be receiving one of the big draws of the rule.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yeah you totally schooled me there...not even sure why that is relevant other than the fact I was right that they were OP and guard are still REALLY OP. You could literally give all tacs storm bolters for 0 cost and infantry would outperform them.

OP? You were right? Nah fam you’re wrong on almost every level. Conscripts were amazing but not OP. When something kicks your butt in almost every game (which I’m assuming is your source of whining) that doesn’t make it OP, it makes it a good unit. When a unit single handidly wins all games is when it’s OP. Guard are in an amazing spot. As are orks, 1k sons, marines of nurgle, all of the eldar factions, tau.. all are in good standing. That’s a BIG chunk of armies there, better than some previous editions had. So stop being all upset and enjoy this game for once.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Played a game tonight using the beta bolter rule against a Guard / IK list.

My army is a Black Legion gunline. The relevant units are Abaddon, 3 Laspreds with combi-bolters and 3 10 man CSM squads with 2 lascannons each. It had a total of 24 bolters and 4 combi-bolters (counting the Talon of Horus, even though it doesn't have 'bolt' in the name.)

The beta rule came into play with units between 12 and 24 inches away. Immediate thoughts:

- The beta rule is useful, sometimes. These are still bolters and they are really only good against Infantry.

- Combi-bolters on vehicles are worth it. It was fun figuring out who to go after with them and they made a difference in several situations.

- Against Infantry / Tempestus, each CSM squad averaged 6 more hits and 2 more wounds a turn for units at full strength. Total, it worked out to 18 more wounds over 4 rounds of shooting (I rolled separately for the beta dice to keep track.) The extra wounds forced morale checks twice, the actual number of models that left the table worked out to be just under 30.

- Against a Leman Russ, the bolters got some hits but no wounds. Bolters, even when rapid firing, are terrible against T8.

- Against wounded Infantry squads, the Combi-Bolters got some work done. I did wipe out a unit with one and force a failed morale check with another. I was using them at the end of turns, once it was clear who needed the most love.

While the game went well, I feel like this was a best case scenario. My army doesn't really move, it sits back and shoots stuff up with lascannons. Once the Knight went down, my opponent was forced to push up toward my lines. It was a good situation for me and it's not going to happen every game.

Overall, my impression is the beta rule does not make much of a difference. The extra wounds and failed morale checks were nice but they were nothing game-changing. My beatsticks - Abaddon, the Daemon Prince and the Helbrutes - could have done the same work had they gotten into combat.

The one area where I think the beta rule is generally useful is against weakened units. Being able to use a combi-bolter to tack on another wound at the end of a turn is nice, I could see how Night Lords could put this to good use to maximize attrition.

The one thing I would change about the beta rule is to make bolters AP -1 when rapid firing. I know this sounds like wishlisting, but there were a couple situations where I was like, okay, I have 16 shots from this unit and they can't really hurt anything they can target. This rule addresses volume of fire at distance and I'm not sure that's the right problem to solve. The worst thing about bolters is that they don't do enough damage to anything but light infantry.

The last thing I wanted to say is this got me thinking about my list. Specifically, about replacing the CSM with Chosen with combi-bolters. The reason I've been using CSMs, besides stacking up lascannons, has to do with detachments and command points. I think I could deal with losing a few command points in exchange for double the number of bolter shots, but most of the armies I face are better equipped to deal with them. Hence the point about AP -1.

Kdash wrote:


Interesting write up and thoughts!
I personally agree though, on the vast majority of units (especially non-terminator infantry units) this isn’t really going to make much of a difference. Sure, it’ll give a few extra shots over the course of a game, but I don’t foresee it being something that can be relied upon to help the armies “get over the line”.

One thing I’m tempted by is a double combi-bolter Thousand Sons Rhino, with the Inferno Bolts stratagem. 74 points (and 1 cp) for 8 str 4 -2ap shots on a t7, manoeuvrable, base is pretty interesting. Sure, they don’t have the invuln, or All Is Dust, but I can see them doing work in some matchups.

But, for me, the main winners are bikes and Dark Talons/Flyers with Hurricane Bolters. The only downsides really, are that Bikes can’t get into buildings and Flyers can’t hold objectives.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Kdash wrote:


Interesting write up and thoughts!
I personally agree though, on the vast majority of units (especially non-terminator infantry units) this isn’t really going to make much of a difference. Sure, it’ll give a few extra shots over the course of a game, but I don’t foresee it being something that can be relied upon to help the armies “get over the line”.

One thing I’m tempted by is a double combi-bolter Thousand Sons Rhino, with the Inferno Bolts stratagem. 74 points (and 1 cp) for 8 str 4 -2ap shots on a t7, manoeuvrable, base is pretty interesting. Sure, they don’t have the invuln, or All Is Dust, but I can see them doing work in some matchups.

But, for me, the main winners are bikes and Dark Talons/Flyers with Hurricane Bolters. The only downsides really, are that Bikes can’t get into buildings and Flyers can’t hold objectives.

You only upgrade one of the combi bolters. It's a really really bad stratagem. Only really worth considering for a twin heavy bolter on a LR really.

 techsoldaten wrote:

kurhanik wrote:

novembermike wrote:
I'm not sure that the rule would make sense for Sisters thematically. Marines are the all range, all strategies, tactically flexible force. Sisters are the melta, flamer and bolter zealots that run at you and knock your teeth in. Giving them rules that promote sitting at 24" doesn't really seem consistent with what the army pushes.

Yeah, I'm fine with them not getting it, but considering Sisters don't have bikers, terminator armor, etc, they wouldn't be receiving one of the big draws of the rule.

I don't think it makes sense for Sisters to get Bolter Discipline for the following reasons:

1) Fluff - Sisters are normal humans with power armor. Space Marines are genetically augmented super soldiers with biomechanical enhancements tailored to improve their tactical efficiency. It makes sense all that engineering would result in a soldier who's handier with their basic armament.

2) Rules - Sisters have their own special mechanics, like Acts of Faith. It makes sense to differentiate between the armies to give each a unique flavor.

3) Points - Sisters are 9 points, Tacticals are 13 points. You can field a lot more Sisters than you can Space Marines. Giving Sisters Bolter Discipline technically nerfs Tacticals, while this rule seems to be aimed at improving the situation for Tacticals (and terminators, and bikes, etc.) It makes sense to focus on Space Marines given their current challenges on the tabletop.

4) It's Not About the Gun - The rule's name is Bolter Discipline, not Better Bolters. The fact the rule applies to bolters is not the point, it suggests a mastery of the weapon in combat. It's not supposed to apply to every single case of someone wielding a bolter, it's supposed to apply to those who have elevated the use over and above the weapon's ordinary use. It makes sense this discipline would be specific to certain forces.

Finally, while it's great that some people have a lot of enthusiasm for Sisters, the last thing anyone needs is another army that throws off game balance. Sisters are pretty tough as-is and I'm not sure I see the deficiency that makes it necessary to tinker with their rules too much.

Kdash wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Kdash wrote:


Interesting write up and thoughts!
I personally agree though, on the vast majority of units (especially non-terminator infantry units) this isn’t really going to make much of a difference. Sure, it’ll give a few extra shots over the course of a game, but I don’t foresee it being something that can be relied upon to help the armies “get over the line”.

One thing I’m tempted by is a double combi-bolter Thousand Sons Rhino, with the Inferno Bolts stratagem. 74 points (and 1 cp) for 8 str 4 -2ap shots on a t7, manoeuvrable, base is pretty interesting. Sure, they don’t have the invuln, or All Is Dust, but I can see them doing work in some matchups.

But, for me, the main winners are bikes and Dark Talons/Flyers with Hurricane Bolters. The only downsides really, are that Bikes can’t get into buildings and Flyers can’t hold objectives.

You only upgrade one of the combi bolters. It's a really really bad stratagem. Only really worth considering for a twin heavy bolter on a LR really.

Oops, 2 CP then. Forgot about it only affecting 1 weapon. As for it being “bad”, I agree in a small way, but, it all depends on what you’re doing with the rest of your CP and how many you have. Starting with 14CP isn’t unreasonable for a Thousand Sons army (pure, let alone Chaos Soup) so spending 2 only drops you to 12, and with those 12 you likely have more than enough for the main strats you want to pull off over the first 3 turns.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Kdash wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Kdash wrote:


Interesting write up and thoughts!
I personally agree though, on the vast majority of units (especially non-terminator infantry units) this isn’t really going to make much of a difference. Sure, it’ll give a few extra shots over the course of a game, but I don’t foresee it being something that can be relied upon to help the armies “get over the line”.

One thing I’m tempted by is a double combi-bolter Thousand Sons Rhino, with the Inferno Bolts stratagem. 74 points (and 1 cp) for 8 str 4 -2ap shots on a t7, manoeuvrable, base is pretty interesting. Sure, they don’t have the invuln, or All Is Dust, but I can see them doing work in some matchups.

But, for me, the main winners are bikes and Dark Talons/Flyers with Hurricane Bolters. The only downsides really, are that Bikes can’t get into buildings and Flyers can’t hold objectives.

You only upgrade one of the combi bolters. It's a really really bad stratagem. Only really worth considering for a twin heavy bolter on a LR really.

Oops, 2 CP then. Forgot about it only affecting 1 weapon. As for it being “bad”, I agree in a small way, but, it all depends on what you’re doing with the rest of your CP and how many you have. Starting with 14CP isn’t unreasonable for a Thousand Sons army (pure, let alone Chaos Soup) so spending 2 only drops you to 12, and with those 12 you likely have more than enough for the main strats you want to pull off over the first 3 turns.

With the price drops on havoc launcher also, it's nice to have the full combo on your rhino. 2 combi bolters + a havoc launcher clocks on 80 pts now, and it gives you 8 bolter shots and d6 str 5 shots. Because of that I don't think it's worth spending the 2CP on making only some of the rhino shots ap-2, especially when it's not really what the army is lacking to be honest. TSONS are very CP hungry, you want to be using command re-roll, cabalistic focus, Votlw and deamonforge every single turn.

The way I see the rhino now is the Tsons equivalent to the bikers squad. Fast, durable unit that can do a decent dakka output for 80 pts.

 NurglesR0T wrote:
Problem is if you made the Castellan 1000 points, no one would use it.

I think the Knights in general are very cool models and I have a few on my shelf - but they never should have made their way into standard 40k.

 Blackie wrote:

 NurglesR0T wrote:
Problem is if you made the Castellan 1000 points, no one would use it.

I think the Knights in general are very cool models and I have a few on my shelf - but they never should have made their way into standard 40k.

At very competitive levels sure, it would be out of the most broken and overpowered lists.

But there are people who use a 920 points stompa, and a 1000 points castellan would still outperform the ork super heavy by a large margin.

If someone loves the model the castellan would be played no matter what, because at that prices it wouldn't be trash. The super dude actually worths 900-1000 points so it would be an okish option in casual and semi competitive games. Which is IMHO the appropriate dimension for such units.