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2019/01/25 21:27:15
Subject: Re:New Beta rule - GW Buffs all Marine BOLTERs
-Grey knights third-most: They have a lot of terminators that benefit, but their power armored troops (which make up the bulk of meta GK armies) are just like DW vets in that they tend to DS into position or pop out of a rhino, meaning turn 3 would be the earliest you'd even consider making use of the rule.
I don't see why starting on the table isn't an option. GK used deepstrike to get advantage out of those storm bolters, but are not forced to now. Additionally, the rule states "if the model remained stationary during the previous movement phase", which I take to mean that GoI will let you warp a unit and still shoot at full effect.
This is an important point and why this will have an impact that is hard to predict from the armchair. Most of the analysis done on this rule fails to challenge assumptions, like those who assume the use of these units won't change in the face of this new rule even though they kind of can.
And this applies to Deathwatch as well.
I think for me the reason I'm not assuming that the usage of most (not all) bolter-wielding models that currently deep strike is the 24" range on the guns and the "you must stand still" requirement. This absolutely changes the use case of Intercessors, who won't need to close to 15 but can fire across no-mans land at 30", but it would be very tricky to arrange an opportunity for a GK or DW storm bolter unit to be able to fire turn 1 with only 24" range.
That's the thing - SIA makes it 30'' at AP-1 as an option.
So if we agree that Intercessors have new value from being able to pump out good shooting at 30'', and it's deemed decent enough to employ them, then imagine a 3++ unit that fires double that while toting a couple Terminators to boost the basic save to 2+ for 4 wounds. Now you have a pretty durable objective camper that displaces that new use case for Intercessors.
2019/01/25 21:40:15
Subject: New Beta rule - GW Buffs all Marine BOLTERs
Vaktathi wrote: Thats one thing that has always puzzled me with GW and particularly Space Marines. HQ's are almost always geared to CC, not shooting. Why can't we have a Captain in Terminator armor with an Assault Cannon or Cyclone launcher. Why can't a Chapter Master avail himself of a Plasma Cannon or Heavy Flamer? We get all sorts of unique relic CC weapons, but the best we get for ranged is usually some minorly enhanced bolt weapon.
In actual combat you want your squad leader leading the squad not getting focused on shooting the enemy. You especially don't want them focusing on using a special weapon as they are almost guaranteed to lose situational awareness doing so (plus they are heavy so the new guy carries it). A good part of the reason you see many nations during WWII using squad leaders armed with sub-machine guns was keep the squad leader focused on what was happening and not putting bullets down range since a SMG just doesn't have the range a rifle does. I suspect in the early days of GW the designers knew that hence we have squad leaders mostly armed with short ranged/melee options. I am not so sure they know that now and just have the squad leaders like that because they have always been that way.
2019/01/25 21:41:11
Subject: New Beta rule - GW Buffs all Marine BOLTERs
Marmatag wrote: One thing this rule does, is it makes terminator captains or lieutenants with relic storm bolters actually interesting.
Because some of those guns are actually pretty good, and being able to pump out 4 shots at max range isn't half bad for 2 points. Especially since most of the time you really don't want your character in combat.
I'm not saying this makes them worth their points, but there's a choice here - if your character is sitting around being a bubble back bitch then you may as well put them in termy armor and take a shooty relic.
Thats one thing that has always puzzled me with GW and particularly Space Marines. HQ's are almost always geared to CC, not shooting. Why can't we have a Captain in Terminator armor with an Assault Cannon or Cyclone launcher. Why can't a Chapter Master avail himself of a Plasma Cannon or Heavy Flamer? We get all sorts of unique relic CC weapons, but the best we get for ranged is usually some minorly enhanced bolt weapon.
Best you got is the Raptor Chapter Master
And then Vulkan has a Heavy Flamer at least.
Honestly I'm still annoyed that the Fire Hawks special character doesn't have a hand flamer. That was like one of the primary benefits of picking that Chapter and he didn't even have that.
Someone brought up TH/SS Terminators being an appropriate counter to Knights, which is basically a lie.
What units in the Space Marine book are good at taking on a Castellan?
Imo, of the options in there, TH/SS Terminators are one of the more capable units in that arena. If you have other suggestions, I'm all ears.
For the cost, I wouldn't say very capable. Especially once the robots start stomping too.
Regarding options to kill Knights in our codex? Not a lot. In terms of at least degrading the profile, we have a couple of decent options, which is one of the areas the Predator Autocannon definitely shines.
Depending if you're space marines or chaos space marines my approach would be similar but slightly different. Either bomb a bike libby in and try to cast null zone, at which point it can be taken down extremely efficiently by lascannons, or stack +to casts on a sorceror and get it Death Hexed, then again, apply lascannons liberally.
Having actually faced the Carls Wrath Castellan myself in my last game for the first time, I wasn't super impressed. Sure, the thing basically downs whatever the heck it wants but it costs 600 points and sucks CPs faster than smashcap. I had my Tsons+daemons, he had the castellan plus catachan brigade. He used a CP to make it a character and give it a trait, another to give it the relic, then 6 on his turn to use the Raven strat and Oathbreaker Guidance (he went first) and to try and re-roll the damage roll that went through vs Ahriman to try and kill him, which didn't work. Grand total, he did 4hp of damage to Ahriman, 3 points of damage to my LOC which he went after with carl's wrath, and 4 damage to a rhino with the secondary cannons.
Good damage? Yeah, sure, it was fine. He could also have wiped a rhino with Cawls Wrath if he'd wanted to, or a double butcher cannon contemptor dread - going after the LOC with a 3++ was probably a bad move. But for six command points, I could have gotten better mileage out of a smash captain or some other better CP-sucker unit and paid way less than 600 points. Then, on my turn, he had to burn another 3 to get the 3++ when I started declaring anti-tank weapons at it, and it basically cost me nothing to draw that out. His turn, he burned another 3 and left himself with 3 remaining, still didn't manage to kill the LOC, and on my turn I got Death Hex on it and got it to the third bracket
The thing burned 14/15 command points in a matter of 2 turns, didn't manage to kill anywhere near 600 points of units, and with just one psychic power I was able to strip nearly all its defenses away, besides the admittedly annoying T8. And all this was while I was putting most of my attention and resources to killing all the damn guardsmen he had with the knight, I used a good chunk of my CP and psychic powers buffing up my pink horror and tzaangor blob to sort them out.
Null Zone is already hard to cast as is, and you have to get it into the 6" zone. It isn't a good power for a reason.
Also your opponent going after the 3++ Lord of Change with such weapons was silly.
Good ol' Slayer "I put 1000 points of antitank shooting into my opponent's 3++ save Castellan, oh your opponent putting his Castellan into your 3++ save LOC was dumb that's why you won this confirms my bias" Fan.
You're not going to hear me defend Knights in their current state, and I personally think they need to be rewritten. I'm just saying your opponent wasn't the brightest crayon in the box is all.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2019/01/25 21:45:49
Subject: New Beta rule - GW Buffs all Marine BOLTERs
True, I suppose you could use the +range sia on vets, I would wonder a bit how that would stack up against either stalker bolt guns or intercessors who could shoot out to 36" .
The thing that doesn't inspire me too much with campy vets is the fact that SS/Stalker load out already exists and was never hugely meta because even in cover with a 3++ a 20 point per wound t4 unit isn't hard to dakka down with cheap volume of fire.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2019/01/25 22:17:15
Subject: New Beta rule - GW Buffs all Marine BOLTERs
the_scotsman wrote: True, I suppose you could use the +range sia on vets, I would wonder a bit how that would stack up against either stalker bolt guns or intercessors who could shoot out to 36" .
The thing that doesn't inspire me too much with campy vets is the fact that SS/Stalker load out already exists and was never hugely meta because even in cover with a 3++ a 20 point per wound t4 unit isn't hard to dakka down with cheap volume of fire.
See, here's where I kind of think people get lost in the weeds. What is meta is irrelevant to 98% of the players in this hobby. We just had an example above of a guy using a meta list of Castellan and Catachan brigade wasting his shooting on a LoC. Clearly the best 'meta' choices aren't relevant if you're making poor decisions in the game. Likewise, the 'inefficient' campy vets may not have been hugely meta today, but we have like 2 real tournaments to gauge DW post CA18 on and they've been performing very well. I would say the community spends too much time letting tournament lists speak for them and not enough time actually giving things legitimate consideration.
The SS/Stalker load out lacked mobility and was limited to 2 shots per model with high AP. You now have the option for a 3++ 18 point model to pump out 4 rounds down range to kill everything that could dakka them down with cheap volume of fire before they even get into rapid fire range.
2019/01/25 22:50:57
Subject: New Beta rule - GW Buffs all Marine BOLTERs
the_scotsman wrote: True, I suppose you could use the +range sia on vets, I would wonder a bit how that would stack up against either stalker bolt guns or intercessors who could shoot out to 36" .
The thing that doesn't inspire me too much with campy vets is the fact that SS/Stalker load out already exists and was never hugely meta because even in cover with a 3++ a 20 point per wound t4 unit isn't hard to dakka down with cheap volume of fire.
DW vets have actually been putting up tournament results post CA.
2019/01/25 22:58:36
Subject: New Beta rule - GW Buffs all Marine BOLTERs
the_scotsman wrote: True, I suppose you could use the +range sia on vets, I would wonder a bit how that would stack up against either stalker bolt guns or intercessors who could shoot out to 36" .
The thing that doesn't inspire me too much with campy vets is the fact that SS/Stalker load out already exists and was never hugely meta because even in cover with a 3++ a 20 point per wound t4 unit isn't hard to dakka down with cheap volume of fire.
DW vets have actually been putting up tournament results post CA.
Yeah, of the deep striking SS/SB variety. The sit in cover with longrange guns variety did not show up. Admittedly as the poster above me pointed out, we've only had a couple tournaments to judge them off of so hey, maybe DW vets chilling in cover with storm bolters becomes the new meta thing! I don't know! That'd be an interesting change for sure, the first big shift we've seen in a while.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2019/01/25 23:06:50
Subject: New Beta rule - GW Buffs all Marine BOLTERs
the_scotsman wrote: True, I suppose you could use the +range sia on vets, I would wonder a bit how that would stack up against either stalker bolt guns or intercessors who could shoot out to 36" .
The thing that doesn't inspire me too much with campy vets is the fact that SS/Stalker load out already exists and was never hugely meta because even in cover with a 3++ a 20 point per wound t4 unit isn't hard to dakka down with cheap volume of fire.
DW vets have actually been putting up tournament results post CA.
Yeah, of the deep striking SS/SB variety. The sit in cover with longrange guns variety did not show up. Admittedly as the poster above me pointed out, we've only had a couple tournaments to judge them off of so hey, maybe DW vets chilling in cover with storm bolters becomes the new meta thing! I don't know! That'd be an interesting change for sure, the first big shift we've seen in a while.
They aren't a different kind of vet. All of these vets are SB/SS with termies, blackshields, bikes and vanguard vets. This just gives those same vets another trick with the exact same units.
2019/01/25 23:14:33
Subject: New Beta rule - GW Buffs all Marine BOLTERs
If the rule was modified to, in some way, affect all Marine bolt weapons in a similar manner, how would that change the internal balance of Marine units?
Maybe things like bolt pistols getting an extra shot full-stop, heavy bolters being considered rapid fire 2 for Marines, auto bolt rifles getting an extra shot within half range etc. Basically an equivalent damage output increase of an extra bolt shot in some circumstances.
ChargerIIC wrote: If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
2019/01/25 23:23:41
Subject: New Beta rule - GW Buffs all Marine BOLTERs
topaxygouroun i wrote: How about a unit of 6 chosen with combi plasmas + lord? That would be 28 bolter shots + 7 plasma shots with reroll 1's. Enter 12" and you get the 14 overloaded plasma treatment. The combination costs about 230 pts and fits in a rhino.
...where are 14 of the bolter shots from the Chosen/Lord combo coming from? A combi-plasma is a boltgun welded to a plasma gun, and the boltgun is still dealing with a maximum shot volume fo 2 per weapon, even under this rule.
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
2019/01/25 23:33:44
Subject: New Beta rule - GW Buffs all Marine BOLTERs
Haighus wrote: If the rule was modified to, in some way, affect all Marine bolt weapons in a similar manner, how would that change the internal balance of Marine units?
Maybe things like bolt pistols getting an extra shot full-stop, heavy bolters being considered rapid fire 2 for Marines, auto bolt rifles getting an extra shot within half range etc. Basically an equivalent damage output increase of an extra bolt shot in some circumstances.
I really like the idea of altering Heavy Bolters and pistols. Giving more shots to pistols will really beef up assault marines in close combat (and why arent they firing them wildly in close combat these days?). Heavy bolters are definitely a premier marine weapon that while cheap has not lived up to its full potential. Rapid fire 2 would go far to help it out as an assault weapon.
Of course, We can all still hope they will make a primaris marine with an onslaught cannon, because that would look amazing.
17,000 points (Valhallan)
10,000 points
6,000 points (Order of Our Martyred Lady)
Proud Countess of House Terryn hosting 7 Knights, 2 Dominus Knights, and 8 Armigers
Stormcast Eternals: 7,000 points
"Remember, Orks are weak and cowardly, they are easily beat in close combat and their tusks, while menacing, can easily be pulled out with a sharp tug"
-Imperial Guard Uplifting Primer
2019/01/26 01:26:13
Subject: Re:New Beta rule - GW Buffs all Marine BOLTERs
techsoldaten wrote: 2) The rules for Sisters are fine as-is, Marines have very serious problems. Pretending that's not the case is purposeful stupidity or willful ignorance. I'm personally in the camp of nerfing Sisters proactively to prevent the game from having another OP Codex.
That's obvious trolling. I feel it's very unfair that the rules are just for marines. Sisters have a huge lack of long-powered shooting, it would at least make retributor squad more useful! And it would make the rhinos better too! We pay more for them than Marines iirc, so if we could at least get the same amount of firepower…
TBH I think just the fact that Custodes don't get this should be a clear indicator to anyone who likes sisters that this is intended to be a Marines rule, and it buffs marines exactly where they need to be buffed: their basic functionality.
A SOB has pretty solid basic functionality. They cost about what a bolter wielding troop should cost. It's their "fancy schtick stuff" from the new beta codex that feels incredibly lacking, IMO.
Also, Retributors carry heavy bolters, right? Those guns that don't benefit from this rule anyway?
No one is arguing that it's clearly a rule intended for marines. The point has always been that there is just as much justification giving it to several other armies as well.
Also, It's good to see that you want sisters to be either S/T 4 WS 3+, or 6 points.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Galef wrote: .
While we are all sure that Sisters are good at using Bolters, a Marine will always just that much better at using them due to their augmentations and training.
Not all Sisters use Bolters, but EVERY Marine is trained extensively to do so.
-
Both of your points here have already been pointed out to not be true.
"Not all Sisters use Bolters"
This part is especially so.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/26 01:32:41
2019/01/26 02:22:02
Subject: Re:New Beta rule - GW Buffs all Marine BOLTERs
the_scotsman wrote: Also, Retributors carry heavy bolters, right? Those guns that don't benefit from this rule anyway?
Only 4 of them carry heavy bolters (or other multi-melta, or heavy flamers), the others are just carrying bolters. It would turn them from almost useless meatshield to somewhat useful when in range.
fraser1191 wrote: If that's the case than I'd say there's an argument for Black Templars getting acts of faith
I'm okay with Acts of Faith becoming the Templars Chapter Tactic. Not sure you are gaining much with this, but I'm fine with it. I mean, Crusaders aren't Sisters of Battle either and they already get the rule. And you can decry different armies sharing a rule all you want, but loyalist marines are like a 6 different armies sharing ATSKNF, and now all 9+ marines factions share the bolter buff rules, so you don't really have a leg to stand on.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/01/26 02:22:53
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2019/01/26 05:56:03
Subject: Re:New Beta rule - GW Buffs all Marine BOLTERs
No one is arguing that it's clearly a rule intended for marines. The point has always been that there is just as much justification giving it to several other armies as well.
Also, It's good to see that you want sisters to be either S/T 4 WS 3+, or 6 points.
Naw, your point falls flat. Sisters don't need it. Custodes don't need it.
Why? Because this is a buff to Marines. Get it? Providing the buff to everyone else would reduce the impact of the buff to Marines, potentially necessitating another buff that you'll all belly ache about not getting.
2019/01/26 07:06:30
Subject: Re:New Beta rule - GW Buffs all Marine BOLTERs
No one is arguing that it's clearly a rule intended for marines. The point has always been that there is just as much justification giving it to several other armies as well.
Also, It's good to see that you want sisters to be either S/T 4 WS 3+, or 6 points.
Naw, your point falls flat. Sisters don't need it. Custodes don't need it.
Why? Because this is a buff to Marines. Get it? Providing the buff to everyone else would reduce the impact of the buff to Marines, potentially necessitating another buff that you'll all belly ache about not getting.
Wow, now I see it. Everything I posted is wr...JK!
Yeah, I know it was made for marines because it says "Astartes and Heritic Astartes" all over it. So, now that we've finished discussing the wording on the rules, let me know what impact that has on the arguments I've already made, that you have yet to address.
Because so far you haven't said anything of actual value in regards to any of my posts.
2019/01/26 07:09:17
Subject: Re:New Beta rule - GW Buffs all Marine BOLTERs
No one is arguing that it's clearly a rule intended for marines. The point has always been that there is just as much justification giving it to several other armies as well.
Also, It's good to see that you want sisters to be either S/T 4 WS 3+, or 6 points.
Naw, your point falls flat. Sisters don't need it. Custodes don't need it.
Why? Because this is a buff to Marines. Get it? Providing the buff to everyone else would reduce the impact of the buff to Marines, potentially necessitating another buff that you'll all belly ache about not getting.
Wow, now I see it. Everything I posted is wr...JK!
Yeah, I know it was made for marines because it says "Astartes and Heritic Astartes" all over it. So, now that we've finished discussing the wording on the rules, let me know what impact that has on the arguments I've already made, that you have yet to address.
Because so far you haven't said anything of actual value in regards to any of my posts.
I think he did, because he said this.
Providing the buff to everyone else would reduce the impact of the buff to Marines, potentially necessitating another buff that you'll all belly ache about not getting.
2019/01/26 07:13:18
Subject: New Beta rule - GW Buffs all Marine BOLTERs
A rule availible to half the armies in the game is already diluted.
Besides, with others using said rule, what else would his Marine Sues have to be special...
Besides a generally higher Strength
..and Toughness
...and weapons skill
...Oh, don't forget ballistic skill.
And leadership, which gets a reroll.
And the widest range of special and heavy weapons...
And the ability to split squads on demand (yes, I know it's not often used for a variety of reasons)
And access to characters that can crack a knight in half...
Shall I continue?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/26 07:17:37
2019/01/26 07:24:42
Subject: New Beta rule - GW Buffs all Marine BOLTERs
Someone brought up TH/SS Terminators being an appropriate counter to Knights, which is basically a lie.
What units in the Space Marine book are good at taking on a Castellan?
Imo, of the options in there, TH/SS Terminators are one of the more capable units in that arena. If you have other suggestions, I'm all ears.
The real question is: what units in the entire 40k universe are good at taking on a castellan????
There's only one combo that is actually very powerful for that job, the farseer+harlequins bikes one. Nothing from a single codex can take down a castellan efficiently.
The best way to deal with the castellan is to ignore it, kill the rest of the army and focus to score points.
2019/01/26 07:35:36
Subject: New Beta rule - GW Buffs all Marine BOLTERs
A rule availible to half the armies in the game is already diluted.
Besides, with others using said rule, what else would his Marine Sues have to be special...
Besides a generally higher Strength
..and Toughness
...and weapons skill
...Oh, don't forget ballistic skill.
And leadership, which gets a reroll.
And the widest range of special and heavy weapons...
And the ability to split squads on demand (yes, I know it's not often used for a variety of reasons)
And access to characters that can crack a knight in half...
Shall I continue?
Except the statline on marines is mostly useless waste of points that never even factors into the unit's function. And most of the weapon options are gak not worth taking and there's only around 3 or so "viable" options. Nevermind that marines aren't special, and are one of the worst armies in the game currently with some even going down as low as 32%.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
2019/01/26 08:48:18
Subject: New Beta rule - GW Buffs all Marine BOLTERs
Frankly, i don't quite understand what they tried to achieve with this rule, a flat additional shot would've been better imo.
As for the whole sisters argument, we haven't seen their codex yet, the beta is altough gak, and i imagine that they will probably also get such a rule, however i would've preffered a rule that would've boosted melee instead since that is were marines pay premium without much impact. Fighting shooty stuff and shooting fighty stuff should be incentivied, this rule just incentivices more castly aura builds that rely upon Failbaddon and Rowboat.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/26 09:47:04
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2019/01/26 09:51:35
Subject: New Beta rule - GW Buffs all Marine BOLTERs
Mmmpi wrote: Something like "Marines can use their bolters as pistols". like Space Wolves used to beable to?
That would increase their 'cc' attacks by 50% when fighting against hordes.
Yep, also make tacticals and CSM tactical flexibile again, meaning they get the whole shabbang free of charge (chainsword, bolter, boltpistol, nades, etc.)
LIKE WE USED TO BE ABLE TO FOR FREE.
Also where did my marks go!?!
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2019/01/26 10:28:19
Subject: Re:New Beta rule - GW Buffs all Marine BOLTERs
Lemondish wrote: Naw, your point falls flat. Sisters don't need it. Custodes don't need it.
Why? Because this is a buff to Marines.
Yes. There is an obvious difference between the 9+ marines factions, who all need it, despite being super-different from each others, and the Sisters of Battle and Custodes who don't need it. Of course! Remember how Death Guard is exactly the same as Deathwatch is exactly the same as Black Templar is exactly the same as Grey Knight, and how all those armies are exactly at the same power level, unlike Sisters that are very very different!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/26 10:30:27
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2019/01/26 10:30:56
Subject: New Beta rule - GW Buffs all Marine BOLTERs
Lemondish wrote: Naw, your point falls flat. Sisters don't need it. Custodes don't need it.
Why? Because this is a buff to Marines.
Yes. There is an obvious difference between the 9+ marines factions, who all need it, despite being super-different from each others, and the Sisters of Battle and Custodes who don't need it. Of course! Remember how Death Guard is exactly the same as Deathwatch is exactly the same as Black Templar is exactly the same as Grey Knight, and how all those armies are exactly at the same power level, unlike Sisters that are very very different!
The massive lumbering bloated resource suck of 9+ factions who are mostly the same unit with cosmetic differences or the relative few that are not should be a single unit. Pretty much every unit that is proclaimed as "unique" is not and should and could represent units across the vaious loyalist Astartes - eg the Wulfen have countnerparts in the Black Dragons and other Chapters
Conversely I don't mond "Marines" getting a boost - they do need it but pretending the rest is not true is disengeous in the same way as pretending that Astartes are better shots than Custodes.
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