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 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
This change could make fallen fun to take as well as dark angel vets all with combi plasma, gonna try it out tomorrow

Cypher and the Fallen don't actually benefit from this rule since they are lacking both the Adeptus and Heretic Astartes keywords.

That’s why we have the rules email folks.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Those Terminators also don't have the TH/SS loadout that was being talked about.

I'm not sure why we'd talk about terminators that don't benefit from this rule.

 Apple Peel wrote:
That’s why we have the rules email folks.

I hope that's the case, obviously it's kind of silly that they don't benefit from this rule. However, they've never made any updates to address the fact that the lack of these keywords prevents both Heretic and Adeptus Astartes psychic powers from working on them either.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

-Grey knights third-most: They have a lot of terminators that benefit, but their power armored troops (which make up the bulk of meta GK armies) are just like DW vets in that they tend to DS into position or pop out of a rhino, meaning turn 3 would be the earliest you'd even consider making use of the rule.

I don't see why starting on the table isn't an option. GK used deepstrike to get advantage out of those storm bolters, but are not forced to now. Additionally, the rule states "if the model remained stationary during the previous movement phase", which I take to mean that GoI will let you warp a unit and still shoot at full effect.

I am not a grey knight player, but to me, the additional 50% chance of going second and the unit getting shot compared to MAYBE getting to fire one of my units from the edge of no-man's land at an opponent's unit they set up exactly on no-man's land would not be worth the risk vs the very small cost of deep striking the unit.

Also:

Q: If a unit uses a rule that removes them from the battlefield and
then sets them up again, such as the Teleport Homer ability or
the Gate of Infinity psychic power, does that unit count as having
moved for the purposes of moving and firing Heavy weapons?
A: Yes.

Rapid Fire weapons are not Heavy Weapons. They have entirely different rules.

the_scotsman wrote:


I am not a grey knight player, but to me, the additional 50% chance of going second and the unit getting shot compared to MAYBE getting to fire one of my units from the edge of no-man's land at an opponent's unit they set up exactly on no-man's land would not be worth the risk vs the very small cost of deep striking the unit.

Also:

Q: If a unit uses a rule that removes them from the battlefield and
then sets them up again, such as the Teleport Homer ability or
the Gate of Infinity psychic power, does that unit count as having
moved for the purposes of moving and firing Heavy weapons?
A: Yes.

CP for a 2+ save - otherwise your opponent cedes board control.

That FAQ comes close and I can see them FAQing this that way, but I feel like it has a possibility to get through. Either way the models did not move in the previous movement phase despite having counted as moving.

I'm not prepared to defend it so I'll let people break their backs on it in YMDC.

the_scotsman wrote:
Yes, but that's not actually how you quantify "benefit most".

I tend to be less absolute and more end result on these kinds of things.

If unit A gets a boost, and unit B gets twice that boost - unit B 'benefits most', however if B is still crap after the boost while A is ever more fantastic then in practical terms it's A that has come off the best.
From a competitive standpoint at least it doesn't matter if you are half way crap or all the way crap but it does matter if you are half way good or all the way good.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Those Terminators also don't have the TH/SS loadout that was being talked about.

I'm not sure why we'd talk about terminators that don't benefit from this rule.

Someone brought up TH/SS Terminators being an appropriate counter to Knights, which is basically a lie. You then said they could easily get into combat and that Tarts have a 6" movement like it mattered.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Someone brought up TH/SS Terminators being an appropriate counter to Knights, which is basically a lie.

What units in the Space Marine book are good at taking on a Castellan?

Imo, of the options in there, TH/SS Terminators are one of the more capable units in that arena. If you have other suggestions, I'm all ears.

Leviathan dread within 24". Kinda.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Someone brought up TH/SS Terminators being an appropriate counter to Knights, which is basically a lie.

What units in the Space Marine book are good at taking on a Castellan?

Imo, of the options in there, TH/SS Terminators are one of the more capable units in that arena. If you have other suggestions, I'm all ears.

Strike cruiser- magma bomb it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure!

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
This change could make fallen fun to take as well as dark angel vets all with combi plasma, gonna try it out tomorrow

Cypher and the Fallen don't actually benefit from this rule since they are lacking both the Adeptus and Heretic Astartes keywords.

We will just house rule it then until they fix the issue, if ever.

One thing this rule does, is it makes terminator captains or lieutenants with relic storm bolters actually interesting.

Because some of those guns are actually pretty good, and being able to pump out 4 shots at max range isn't half bad for 2 points. Especially since most of the time you really don't want your character in combat.

I'm not saying this makes them worth their points, but there's a choice here - if your character is sitting around being a bubble back bitch then you may as well put them in termy armor and take a shooty relic.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Someone brought up TH/SS Terminators being an appropriate counter to Knights, which is basically a lie.

What units in the Space Marine book are good at taking on a Castellan?

Imo, of the options in there, TH/SS Terminators are one of the more capable units in that arena. If you have other suggestions, I'm all ears.

For the cost, I wouldn't say very capable. Especially once the robots start stomping too.

Regarding options to kill Knights in our codex? Not a lot. In terms of at least degrading the profile, we have a couple of decent options, which is one of the areas the Predator Autocannon definitely shines.

A.T. wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Yes, but that's not actually how you quantify "benefit most".

I tend to be less absolute and more end result on these kinds of things.

If unit A gets a boost, and unit B gets twice that boost - unit B 'benefits most', however if B is still crap after the boost while A is ever more fantastic then in practical terms it's A that has come off the best.
From a competitive standpoint at least it doesn't matter if you are half way crap or all the way crap but it does matter if you are half way good or all the way good.

So basically, marine players are never going to be happy. We have EIGHT fething marine factions in the game, and 2 "quasi-marine" factions. And within each marine factions, there are usually multiple power armor bolter toter type units.

One is always going to work slightly better than the others, and will evolve into the competitive meta. If you dismiss every buff that doesn't completely flip the meta around as crap, then why bother trying to change it around at all?

SS/SB vet teams are definitely still best-in-show bolter boys after this rules change, despite getting a ridiculously tiny bump from the rule itself.

LR Crusaders, Tactical Termies, Tacticals, Bikers, DA flyers, etc all received decent benefits from the rule, but probably won't make it to the competitive meta because of it.

Sternguard, Company Vets on bikes, and Scout bikes are the three units I'd keep an eye on as MAYBE this toes them over the line and we see someone taking company vet bikers+guilliman over deathwatch vets+watch captains as their supplemental anti horde firepower in an imperial soup list.

It's frankly amazing to me that there's this wild double standard where being tournament worthy is both an ideal and an abomination. If anything is not taken in tournament meta lists, it's garbage and the second it is it's an abomination that needs to be nerfed.

Martel732 wrote:
Leviathan dread within 24". Kinda.

Well my qualifier was in the main book (non FW), but we may as well take a look. Are we talking Stormcannons though? Because of the top I'm looking at 20 x .83 x .333 x.333 x 2 = 3.6 wounds on the famed Castellan. With buffs that'll go up a bit, but it ain't much. Not to mention the effect of return fire. A single Devastator Squad with a Cherub'd Hellfire round does about the same.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Someone brought up TH/SS Terminators being an appropriate counter to Knights, which is basically a lie.

What units in the Space Marine book are good at taking on a Castellan?

Imo, of the options in there, TH/SS Terminators are one of the more capable units in that arena. If you have other suggestions, I'm all ears.

For the cost, I wouldn't say very capable. Especially once the robots start stomping too.

Regarding options to kill Knights in our codex? Not a lot. In terms of at least degrading the profile, we have a couple of decent options, which is one of the areas the Predator Autocannon definitely shines.

A Full TH/SS Terminator Squad lands 21 x 0.5 x 0.5 x 0.83 x3 = 13 wounds on the Castellan in CC. Compared to other options, that's damn impressive imo. This is prior to burning 3CP to fight again, too. So from where I stand, if you can figure out a way to get them there, they can do the work better than most. They cost a lot, sure, but they still cost less than the Castellan by a fair bit, and these numbers are un-buffed. Also they have that 3++ and distributed wounds helping them a bit defensively.

A Predator Autocannon averages less than a single wound on the 3++ Castellan.

There's something to be said for Imperial Fist dakka-mode Centurions under Siegebreaker, they average 9 MWs and another 9 saves. Not remotely enough to one-round it but they'll take a sizable chunk out of one. ...actually, fill the rest of the list with Sniper scouts and they'd average another 13 Mortals per round. 22 MWs is close enough that missing a handful of the regular saves that go with those MWs would do the job if you went first.

Of course, the remaining three Knights would utterly demolish such a force on their turn.

 Marmatag wrote:
One thing this rule does, is it makes terminator captains or lieutenants with relic storm bolters actually interesting.

Because some of those guns are actually pretty good, and being able to pump out 4 shots at max range isn't half bad for 2 points. Especially since most of the time you really don't want your character in combat.

I'm not saying this makes them worth their points, but there's a choice here - if your character is sitting around being a bubble back bitch then you may as well put them in termy armor and take a shooty relic.

Thats one thing that has always puzzled me with GW and particularly Space Marines. HQ's are almost always geared to CC, not shooting. Why can't we have a Captain in Terminator armor with an Assault Cannon or Cyclone launcher. Why can't a Chapter Master avail himself of a Plasma Cannon or Heavy Flamer? We get all sorts of unique relic CC weapons, but the best we get for ranged is usually some minorly enhanced bolt weapon.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Leviathan dread within 24". Kinda.

Well my qualifier was in the main book (non FW), but we may as well take a look. Are we talking Stormcannons though? Because of the top I'm looking at 20 x .83 x .333 x.333 x 2 = 3.6 wounds on the famed Castellan. With buffs that'll go up a bit, but it ain't much. Not to mention the effect of return fire. A single Devastator Squad with a Cherub'd Hellfire round does about the same.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Someone brought up TH/SS Terminators being an appropriate counter to Knights, which is basically a lie.

What units in the Space Marine book are good at taking on a Castellan?

Imo, of the options in there, TH/SS Terminators are one of the more capable units in that arena. If you have other suggestions, I'm all ears.

For the cost, I wouldn't say very capable. Especially once the robots start stomping too.

Regarding options to kill Knights in our codex? Not a lot. In terms of at least degrading the profile, we have a couple of decent options, which is one of the areas the Predator Autocannon definitely shines.

A Full TH/SS Terminator Squad lands 21 x 0.5 x 0.5 x 0.83 x3 = 13 wounds on the Castellan in CC. Compared to other options, that's damn impressive imo. This is prior to burning 3CP to fight again, too. So from where I stand, if you can figure out a way to get them there, they can do the work better than most. They cost a lot, sure, but they still cost less than the Castellan by a fair bit, and these numbers are un-buffed. Also they have that 3++ and distributed wounds helping them a bit defensively.

The fighting again Strategem happens at the end of the phase, so that'll be after the Knight lands some stomps. Distributed wounds also only helps if the knight is consistently rolling 1 for the DD3 for the stomps.

That's not even keeping in mind Overwatch (though likely it didn't kill many dudes), and whatever bonuses the Knight might already have in place.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
One thing this rule does, is it makes terminator captains or lieutenants with relic storm bolters actually interesting.

Because some of those guns are actually pretty good, and being able to pump out 4 shots at max range isn't half bad for 2 points. Especially since most of the time you really don't want your character in combat.

I'm not saying this makes them worth their points, but there's a choice here - if your character is sitting around being a bubble back bitch then you may as well put them in termy armor and take a shooty relic.

Thats one thing that has always puzzled me with GW and particularly Space Marines. HQ's are almost always geared to CC, not shooting. Why can't we have a Captain in Terminator armor with an Assault Cannon or Cyclone launcher. Why can't a Chapter Master avail himself of a Plasma Cannon or Heavy Flamer? We get all sorts of unique relic CC weapons, but the best we get for ranged is usually some minorly enhanced bolt weapon.

Some points we had relic Combi-Weapons, but that's about it.

The Newman wrote:
There's something to be said for Imperial Fist dakka-mode Centurions under Siegebreaker, they average 9 MWs and another 9 saves. Not remotely enough to one-round it but they'll take a sizable chunk out of one. ...actually, fill the rest of the list with Sniper scouts and they'd average another 13 Mortals per round. 22 MWs is close enough that missing a handful of the regular saves that go with those MWs would do the job if you went first.

Of course, the remaining three Knights would utterly demolish such a force on their turn.

Yeah, the MW route is tempting but it makes for weird lists that I feel wind pu with heavy disadvantages in other areas.

Like I can build a list that can one-shot the Castellan with raw number-of-guns, too. But lord knows how it would fare against other things.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

The fighting again Strategem happens at the end of the phase, so that'll be after the Knight lands some stomps. Distributed wounds also only helps if the knight is consistently rolling 1 for the DD3 for the stomps.

Obviously, but you're still looking at well over half damage to the Castellan from a single unit. Distributed wounds helps when taking overwatch or other fire still, esp when compared to any vehicle which is looking at the Volcano Lance. For basic marines, I don't see many other units that can even come close to the potential damage output that the Terminators do. Siege Centurions I suppose can do a lot of damage, but they can't teleport and lack defensive ability.

Like I said, any other suggestions and I'm all ears.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Someone brought up TH/SS Terminators being an appropriate counter to Knights, which is basically a lie.

What units in the Space Marine book are good at taking on a Castellan?

Imo, of the options in there, TH/SS Terminators are one of the more capable units in that arena. If you have other suggestions, I'm all ears.

For the cost, I wouldn't say very capable. Especially once the robots start stomping too.

Regarding options to kill Knights in our codex? Not a lot. In terms of at least degrading the profile, we have a couple of decent options, which is one of the areas the Predator Autocannon definitely shines.

Depending if you're space marines or chaos space marines my approach would be similar but slightly different. Either bomb a bike libby in and try to cast null zone, at which point it can be taken down extremely efficiently by lascannons, or stack +to casts on a sorceror and get it Death Hexed, then again, apply lascannons liberally.

Having actually faced the Carls Wrath Castellan myself in my last game for the first time, I wasn't super impressed. Sure, the thing basically downs whatever the heck it wants but it costs 600 points and sucks CPs faster than smashcap. I had my Tsons+daemons, he had the castellan plus catachan brigade. He used a CP to make it a character and give it a trait, another to give it the relic, then 6 on his turn to use the Raven strat and Oathbreaker Guidance (he went first) and to try and re-roll the damage roll that went through vs Ahriman to try and kill him, which didn't work. Grand total, he did 4hp of damage to Ahriman, 3 points of damage to my LOC which he went after with carl's wrath, and 4 damage to a rhino with the secondary cannons.

Good damage? Yeah, sure, it was fine. He could also have wiped a rhino with Cawls Wrath if he'd wanted to, or a double butcher cannon contemptor dread - going after the LOC with a 3++ was probably a bad move. But for six command points, I could have gotten better mileage out of a smash captain or some other better CP-sucker unit and paid way less than 600 points. Then, on my turn, he had to burn another 3 to get the 3++ when I started declaring anti-tank weapons at it, and it basically cost me nothing to draw that out. His turn, he burned another 3 and left himself with 3 remaining, still didn't manage to kill the LOC, and on my turn I got Death Hex on it and got it to the third bracket

The thing burned 14/15 command points in a matter of 2 turns, didn't manage to kill anywhere near 600 points of units, and with just one psychic power I was able to strip nearly all its defenses away, besides the admittedly annoying T8. And all this was while I was putting most of my attention and resources to killing all the damn guardsmen he had with the knight, I used a good chunk of my CP and psychic powers buffing up my pink horror and tzaangor blob to sort them out.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

-Grey knights third-most: They have a lot of terminators that benefit, but their power armored troops (which make up the bulk of meta GK armies) are just like DW vets in that they tend to DS into position or pop out of a rhino, meaning turn 3 would be the earliest you'd even consider making use of the rule.

I don't see why starting on the table isn't an option. GK used deepstrike to get advantage out of those storm bolters, but are not forced to now. Additionally, the rule states "if the model remained stationary during the previous movement phase", which I take to mean that GoI will let you warp a unit and still shoot at full effect.

This is an important point and why this will have an impact that is hard to predict from the armchair. Most of the analysis done on this rule fails to challenge assumptions, like those who assume the use of these units won't change in the face of this new rule even though they kind of can.

And this applies to Deathwatch as well.

If I was playing Loyalists, I'd build my list with a bike libby ready to bomb it forward and Null zone, have everything on the table T1 geared towards clearing out the screen around the knight, then bring the knight killing stuff in deep strike turn 2. Might take a couple double lascannon 5-man sternguard squads to make sure I'm drawing out the CPs for Rotate Ion turn 1, and also make sure I'm not putting down any unit turn 1 that's over 200-ish points unless it's toting stormshields.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

-Grey knights third-most: They have a lot of terminators that benefit, but their power armored troops (which make up the bulk of meta GK armies) are just like DW vets in that they tend to DS into position or pop out of a rhino, meaning turn 3 would be the earliest you'd even consider making use of the rule.

I don't see why starting on the table isn't an option. GK used deepstrike to get advantage out of those storm bolters, but are not forced to now. Additionally, the rule states "if the model remained stationary during the previous movement phase", which I take to mean that GoI will let you warp a unit and still shoot at full effect.

Deep strike counts as moving for the purposes of firing weapons. It always has.

This is open and shut.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
One thing this rule does, is it makes terminator captains or lieutenants with relic storm bolters actually interesting.

Because some of those guns are actually pretty good, and being able to pump out 4 shots at max range isn't half bad for 2 points. Especially since most of the time you really don't want your character in combat.

I'm not saying this makes them worth their points, but there's a choice here - if your character is sitting around being a bubble back bitch then you may as well put them in termy armor and take a shooty relic.

Thats one thing that has always puzzled me with GW and particularly Space Marines. HQ's are almost always geared to CC, not shooting. Why can't we have a Captain in Terminator armor with an Assault Cannon or Cyclone launcher. Why can't a Chapter Master avail himself of a Plasma Cannon or Heavy Flamer? We get all sorts of unique relic CC weapons, but the best we get for ranged is usually some minorly enhanced bolt weapon.

I have to agree, relics for SM in general are pretty underwhelming. A relic cyclone missile launcher would be super interesting.

So would a relic meltagun with a 24" range.

Lemondish wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

-Grey knights third-most: They have a lot of terminators that benefit, but their power armored troops (which make up the bulk of meta GK armies) are just like DW vets in that they tend to DS into position or pop out of a rhino, meaning turn 3 would be the earliest you'd even consider making use of the rule.

I don't see why starting on the table isn't an option. GK used deepstrike to get advantage out of those storm bolters, but are not forced to now. Additionally, the rule states "if the model remained stationary during the previous movement phase", which I take to mean that GoI will let you warp a unit and still shoot at full effect.

This is an important point and why this will have an impact that is hard to predict from the armchair. Most of the analysis done on this rule fails to challenge assumptions, like those who assume the use of these units won't change in the face of this new rule even though they kind of can.

And this applies to Deathwatch as well.

I think for me the reason I'm not assuming that the usage of most (not all) bolter-wielding models that currently deep strike is the 24" range on the guns and the "you must stand still" requirement. This absolutely changes the use case of Intercessors, who won't need to close to 15 but can fire across no-mans land at 30", but it would be very tricky to arrange an opportunity for a GK or DW storm bolter unit to be able to fire turn 1 with only 24" range.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
One thing this rule does, is it makes terminator captains or lieutenants with relic storm bolters actually interesting.

Because some of those guns are actually pretty good, and being able to pump out 4 shots at max range isn't half bad for 2 points. Especially since most of the time you really don't want your character in combat.

I'm not saying this makes them worth their points, but there's a choice here - if your character is sitting around being a bubble back bitch then you may as well put them in termy armor and take a shooty relic.

Thats one thing that has always puzzled me with GW and particularly Space Marines. HQ's are almost always geared to CC, not shooting. Why can't we have a Captain in Terminator armor with an Assault Cannon or Cyclone launcher. Why can't a Chapter Master avail himself of a Plasma Cannon or Heavy Flamer? We get all sorts of unique relic CC weapons, but the best we get for ranged is usually some minorly enhanced bolt weapon.

Best you got is the Raptor Chapter Master

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
One thing this rule does, is it makes terminator captains or lieutenants with relic storm bolters actually interesting.

Because some of those guns are actually pretty good, and being able to pump out 4 shots at max range isn't half bad for 2 points. Especially since most of the time you really don't want your character in combat.

I'm not saying this makes them worth their points, but there's a choice here - if your character is sitting around being a bubble back bitch then you may as well put them in termy armor and take a shooty relic.

Thats one thing that has always puzzled me with GW and particularly Space Marines. HQ's are almost always geared to CC, not shooting. Why can't we have a Captain in Terminator armor with an Assault Cannon or Cyclone launcher. Why can't a Chapter Master avail himself of a Plasma Cannon or Heavy Flamer? We get all sorts of unique relic CC weapons, but the best we get for ranged is usually some minorly enhanced bolt weapon.

Best you got is the Raptor Chapter Master

And then Vulkan has a Heavy Flamer at least.

Honestly I'm still annoyed that the Fire Hawks special character doesn't have a hand flamer. That was like one of the primary benefits of picking that Chapter and he didn't even have that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Someone brought up TH/SS Terminators being an appropriate counter to Knights, which is basically a lie.

What units in the Space Marine book are good at taking on a Castellan?

Imo, of the options in there, TH/SS Terminators are one of the more capable units in that arena. If you have other suggestions, I'm all ears.

For the cost, I wouldn't say very capable. Especially once the robots start stomping too.

Regarding options to kill Knights in our codex? Not a lot. In terms of at least degrading the profile, we have a couple of decent options, which is one of the areas the Predator Autocannon definitely shines.

Depending if you're space marines or chaos space marines my approach would be similar but slightly different. Either bomb a bike libby in and try to cast null zone, at which point it can be taken down extremely efficiently by lascannons, or stack +to casts on a sorceror and get it Death Hexed, then again, apply lascannons liberally.

Having actually faced the Carls Wrath Castellan myself in my last game for the first time, I wasn't super impressed. Sure, the thing basically downs whatever the heck it wants but it costs 600 points and sucks CPs faster than smashcap. I had my Tsons+daemons, he had the castellan plus catachan brigade. He used a CP to make it a character and give it a trait, another to give it the relic, then 6 on his turn to use the Raven strat and Oathbreaker Guidance (he went first) and to try and re-roll the damage roll that went through vs Ahriman to try and kill him, which didn't work. Grand total, he did 4hp of damage to Ahriman, 3 points of damage to my LOC which he went after with carl's wrath, and 4 damage to a rhino with the secondary cannons.

Good damage? Yeah, sure, it was fine. He could also have wiped a rhino with Cawls Wrath if he'd wanted to, or a double butcher cannon contemptor dread - going after the LOC with a 3++ was probably a bad move. But for six command points, I could have gotten better mileage out of a smash captain or some other better CP-sucker unit and paid way less than 600 points. Then, on my turn, he had to burn another 3 to get the 3++ when I started declaring anti-tank weapons at it, and it basically cost me nothing to draw that out. His turn, he burned another 3 and left himself with 3 remaining, still didn't manage to kill the LOC, and on my turn I got Death Hex on it and got it to the third bracket

The thing burned 14/15 command points in a matter of 2 turns, didn't manage to kill anywhere near 600 points of units, and with just one psychic power I was able to strip nearly all its defenses away, besides the admittedly annoying T8. And all this was while I was putting most of my attention and resources to killing all the damn guardsmen he had with the knight, I used a good chunk of my CP and psychic powers buffing up my pink horror and tzaangor blob to sort them out.

Null Zone is already hard to cast as is, and you have to get it into the 6" zone. It isn't a good power for a reason.

Also your opponent going after the 3++ Lord of Change with such weapons was silly.

 Formosa wrote:
We will just house rule it then until they fix the issue, if ever.

That's certainly a reasonable solution, as I said in another post, it's a bit silly that they don't benefit from this rule, but at the same time, they can't benefit from any Adeptus or Heretic Astartes psychic powers either and GW hasn't made any attempts to rectify that situation.

For all we know this is WAI.

Its a dice game at the end of the day. There are turns when the Castellan does nothing because you flub the rolls. Even with order of companions.

There are also times when it nukes two units worth 200+ points, then gets to murder another in assault. Then takes 1000~ points worth of firepower only to loses a negligible amount of wounds before repeats the trails of death on the next turn. At that point its GG.

Back on the rule - I think the big winner are Bobby G+mass scout lists. Something like what Reece ran at Nova. Bolter scouts benefit a bit (you probably want to use them offensively, but you have a choice if opponents are going to come to you). Scout bikers benefit a lot. Devestators with just 2 heavy weapons benefit on those bolters. Sternguard benefit too. Obviously you can't get all of this under RG's bubble - but you can get a lot.

Actually thinking about it Guilliman plus lots of bikers might have some legs, as thats a pretty nasty alpha strike with all those rerolls. Rule of 3 prevents things getting too silly.

Good ol' Slayer "I put 1000 points of antitank shooting into my opponent's 3++ save Castellan, oh your opponent putting his Castellan into your 3++ save LOC was dumb that's why you won this confirms my bias" Fan.