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Tried it out with my vets. Was basically useless for normal marines on the account you want them always to mkve to cap objectives. The rhino got some use out if it though.

Spoletta wrote:
Smash captain was excellent when you played with unlimited CPs, now you have to make them count. Even if you value a CP at only 20 points, the smash captain is bordering Gallant levels of cost.

The advantage of Captain Smash is that you don't have to spend those CPs on him unless you need to. Against an opponent who lacks big targets, play him conservatively, buff your shooting and then send him into melee if the opportunity presents itself.

But When I have something nasty like a Bloodthirster barrelling towards my lines or I need to take a chunk out of a Castellan, I don't mind burning the CPs to let Captain Smash go crazy. He is there to deal with those nasty problem units that are tough to take down any other way.

 lolman1c wrote:
Tried it out with my vets. Was basically useless for normal marines on the account you want them always to mkve to cap objectives. The rhino got some use out if it though.

Yeah, so one rarely really stays put to be able to use the beta rule? On top of this, doubling nearly zero damage is still going to be nearly zero damage. Because the beta rule acts as pure multiplier, good units got a lot better against specific targets while worse units are still kind of bad. And part of space marine problem is still the fact that they pay 13 points per wound while their actual durability is not worth the 13 points, i.e. flamer (and by extension almost everything else!) still kills more MEQs than GEQs in points which is just fething ridiculous.

Example:
10 * 2 = 20, absolute increase of 10.
2 * 2 = 4, absolute increase of 2.

Yeah, both increase 100%, but what does it matter, the space marines just became marginally better against T3/T4 poor save targets, while nearly everything else still laughs them off in both shooting and melee. Even Troop Marines Objective secured is of questionable worth because they pay 13 points per model, it does not guarantee control in any manner.

They should maybe extend the rule that bolter weapons AP is changed further -1 (so basic bolters get AP -1) when at half the range, or alternatively that rapid firing them always changes AP additional -1. I however find these sort of blanket buffs problematic exactly because of the multiplier effects described above. And bottom line is basic MEQs are still too squishy unit for their 13 points per wound.

 techsoldaten wrote:
2) The rules for Sisters are fine as-is, Marines have very serious problems. Pretending that's not the case is purposeful stupidity or willful ignorance. I'm personally in the camp of nerfing Sisters proactively to prevent the game from having another OP Codex.

That's obvious trolling. I feel it's very unfair that the rules are just for marines. Sisters have a huge lack of long-powered shooting, it would at least make retributor squad more useful! And it would make the rhinos better too! We pay more for them than Marines iirc, so if we could at least get the same amount of firepower…

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
2) The rules for Sisters are fine as-is, Marines have very serious problems. Pretending that's not the case is purposeful stupidity or willful ignorance. I'm personally in the camp of nerfing Sisters proactively to prevent the game from having another OP Codex.

That's obvious trolling. I feel it's very unfair that the rules are just for marines. Sisters have a huge lack of long-powered shooting, it would at least make retributor squad more useful! And it would make the rhinos better too! We pay more for them than Marines iirc, so if we could at least get the same amount of firepower…

TBH I think just the fact that Custodes don't get this should be a clear indicator to anyone who likes sisters that this is intended to be a Marines rule, and it buffs marines exactly where they need to be buffed: their basic functionality.

A SOB has pretty solid basic functionality. They cost about what a bolter wielding troop should cost. It's their "fancy schtick stuff" from the new beta codex that feels incredibly lacking, IMO.

Also, Retributors carry heavy bolters, right? Those guns that don't benefit from this rule anyway?

Raven guard and Deathwatch intercessors = pure JOY.

Now i can realy say that primaris marines are better than vanilla ones.

Just dug their heels into cover and dakkadakkadakka your foes from miles away, enjoying your shiny 2W 2+ save and -1 to hit/addicional ap on bolt rifles

Tough choice, but for me Deathwatch is a clear winner here, auto double tap S4 AP-2 bolters with 36" range/ S4 AP-3 with 24" range just feels tooooooooooooo great, not to mention all rerolls to hit/to wound and additional +1 to wound.

Actually, somebody need to check Gilletteman's gunline once again with this new upgrade.

Having thought through this stuff a bit, I'll change my tune and say that Bikes, for both Chaos and Loyalists, seem perfectly fine as anti-chaff harassers now. It's 71 points for three Bikes and a Storm Bolter on the Sergeant, for that you get 16 shots at 24", a 14" move (so a 38" threat range), T5 and W2. I just wish Command Squad bikers would come down a bit in price so that a 5-man squad with Storm Bolters and Shields didn't cost close to 200 points...

the_scotsman wrote:
A SOB has pretty solid basic functionality. They cost about what a bolter wielding troop should cost.

It's what you compare them to really. They are T3 tactical marines with an extra body per squad, more shooting in close, and a little less shooting at range with the new rules. If tacs could take stormbolters...

But compare either to a genuinely solid unit like ss/sb deathwatch after the new buff. As other have been said the way the rule has been applied is the problem as the stronger units have benefited the most leaving the rest behind. If it had been an upgrade to tactical marines / (and potentially chaos marine troops) alone then all would have been good.

A.T. wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
A SOB has pretty solid basic functionality. They cost about what a bolter wielding troop should cost.

It's what you compare them to really. They are T3 tactical marines with an extra body per squad, more shooting in close, and a little less shooting at range with the new rules. If tacs could take stormbolters...

But compare either to a genuinely solid unit like ss/sb deathwatch after the new buff. As other have been said the way the rule has been applied is the problem as the stronger units have benefited the most leaving the rest behind. If it had been an upgrade to tactical marines / (and potentially chaos marine troops) alone then all would have been good.

yeah, and yet none of those people have explained HOW the best units "benefit more than most"

How does a SB/SS deathwatch vet, a unit that deep strikes into rapid fire range and shoots at 12", benefit more than a currently underpowered unit like a marine biker or terminator, who gets to actually use the rule when they come in? Surely even if they're still a better unit in general, they benefit way less from the rule, because I have yet to play a competitive game of 40k that wasn't totally decided by turn 3, the only turn when those deathwatch vets would even have the option of using the rule at all.

So sisters of battle need to move close and get within 12". So what? Almost all their special weaponry has 12" or shorter range anyway, or (like the aforementioned retributors) is not a weapon that would benefit from this rule at all. Why do I want to try and play sisters of battle as a static gunline when they're clearly intended to be moving forward to use their signature special weapons at close range?

Heck, even basic tactical marines benefit more from this rule than deathwatch vets and other close-range power armor units, because you have the option to build them as a static unit with a heavy weapon if you want to. Sure, theyre going to compare unfavorably to Sternguard and Intercessors, but at least it brings something to the table - unlike with Deathwatch vets, for whom this setup is pointless because they already have Stalker boltguns as an option.

 lolman1c wrote:
Tried it out with my vets. Was basically useless for normal marines on the account you want them always to mkve to cap objectives. The rhino got some use out if it though.

'Tis why I would prefer rapid fire being replaced by assault 2...

Here's a thought experiment: What if:

-Rapid Fire became "Assault, minus the run & shoot bit"; so RF1 meant 1 shot regardless
-Marines could fire Rapid Fire weapons twice when they didn't move or were within half range
-The game were rebalanced around that

It might sound cheaky, but I'm playing with that idea in my head (it'll never happen, so it's just a pipedream), and it "feels" like a better game.

Bharring wrote:
Here's a thought experiment: What if:

-Rapid Fire became "Assault, minus the run & shoot bit"; so RF1 meant 1 shot regardless
-Marines could fire Rapid Fire weapons twice when they didn't move or were within half range
-The game were rebalanced around that

It might sound cheaky, but I'm playing with that idea in my head (it'll never happen, so it's just a pipedream), and it "feels" like a better game.

I certainly think there is something here, but making RF become Assault would actually make the worse IMO. How about Heavy & Assault "bolt' weapons having the option to be RF instead?
And RF weapons get the current Beta rule on top of that?

-

" but making RF become Assault would actually make the worse"
That's the point.

Note that the second line means Marines are as-is now. This thought experiment basically nerfs the game around them.

Guardsmen get 1 shot even within 12". Necron Warriors get 1 shot. Kabs, Sisters, etc.

Dire Avengers and Carbine FireWarriors (among others) would need to be rebalanced (which is the third point).

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

And the 200 points that can't reliably make the charge is a better option?

If terminators get caught out they're more likely to survive if given equal attention. Tartaros SW termies are 6" and have easy access to reroll charges.

It all depends on how you want to view the real cost of smash cap.
- 114 for Smash
- 180 for the CP to power him
- Two out of three detachments to make him work
- No screen in his way

I don't see him playing a large role in the upcoming meta.

Those Terminators also don't have the TH/SS loadout that was being talked about.

the_scotsman wrote:
yeah, and yet none of those people have explained HOW the best units "benefit more than most"

Good units become better. Bad units become... less bad?

the_scotsman wrote:
So sisters of battle need to move close and get within 12". So what?

I think the general concern from that side is that sisters are rather underwhelming with the short to medium range firepower these days despite it being the niche their army is forced into, so anything that moves other factions ahead while they stand still is unfavourable to them.
Particularly due to the various aura and faith effects in the beta codex that push them to more of an immobile gunline approach - though I feel that is a deeper issue with the faction as a whole and personally feel the marines should keep this particular buff to themselves. Sisters should be encouraged to get close, they just aren't all that good at it.

Needing to get close and it being hard to get close is an interesting factional mechanic that can lead to a great deal of fun and be balanced.

Why is it that every time a faction gets a rule there's a ton of people crying that their faction didn't get a clone rule? Like this beta rule that's been out like a week and there's already crying from sisters players for the same rule. Not every faction is supposed to have the same rules and actually, the more you argue for it the more you remove any tangible difference between each army in the game. If sisters end up needing a buff they should look for unique faction specific ways to buff them. Also, the beta rules for sister are still really new and their codex isn't even finalized so doom posting like they are in the same spot as SM is disingenuous at best

Primaris takeover chapter 1 - CA 2018
Primaris takeover chapter 2 - Bolter Discipline
Primaris takeover chapter 3 - Primaro Transports
Primaris takeover chapter 4 - Codex Astartes Cruddice

Like when firing a Rapid Fire weapon twice was a Marines-only rule? And then they gave it to everybody?

Asmodios wrote:
Why is it that every time a faction gets a rule there's a ton of people crying that their faction didn't get a clone rule? Like this beta rule that's been out like a week and there's already crying from sisters players for the same rule. Not every faction is supposed to have the same rules and actually, the more you argue for it the more you remove any tangible difference between each army in the game. If sisters end up needing a buff they should look for unique faction specific ways to buff them. Also, the beta rules for sister are still really new and their codex isn't even finalized so doom posting like they are in the same spot as SM is disingenuous at best

The game is converging in the name of streamline ! Can’t you feel samey samey? How many different names did they give deepstrike? Has to be at least 10’by now right? What did that do?

Pancakey wrote:
Primaris takeover chapter 1 - CA 2018
Primaris takeover chapter 2 - Bolter Discipline
Primaris takeover chapter 3 - Primaro Transports
Primaris takeover chapter 4 - Codex Astartes Cruddice

*Guilliman speaking to Primarneus Calgar over a holo-vox: "Execute Stratagem 66!"

-

Pancakey wrote:

Asmodios wrote:
Why is it that every time a faction gets a rule there's a ton of people crying that their faction didn't get a clone rule? Like this beta rule that's been out like a week and there's already crying from sisters players for the same rule. Not every faction is supposed to have the same rules and actually, the more you argue for it the more you remove any tangible difference between each army in the game. If sisters end up needing a buff they should look for unique faction specific ways to buff them. Also, the beta rules for sister are still really new and their codex isn't even finalized so doom posting like they are in the same spot as SM is disingenuous at best

The game is converging in the name of streamline ! Can’t you feel samey samey? How many different names did they give deepstrike? Has to be at least 10’by now right? What did that do?

Deepstrike is not a great example as in fluff most armies have something that acts as some type of mid-battle insertion tool and I actually like that they take the time to name each of these appropriately for each faction even if they work the same way rules-wise. What I can't stand is players arguing that unit x needs to do everything unit y does and at the same efficiency. Other then custodes there really shouldn't be another faction in the game that can wield a bolter like a sm. Now im not saying a unit like sisters shouldn't get a buff (if they need it) just that there should be unique ways to make them better that are army specific. I don't want to end up playing a game where everything is essentially the same and the army you pick is equivalent to picking out different pieces for your chess collection.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
2) The rules for Sisters are fine as-is, Marines have very serious problems. Pretending that's not the case is purposeful stupidity or willful ignorance. I'm personally in the camp of nerfing Sisters proactively to prevent the game from having another OP Codex.

That's obvious trolling. I feel it's very unfair that the rules are just for marines. Sisters have a huge lack of long-powered shooting, it would at least make retributor squad more useful! And it would make the rhinos better too! We pay more for them than Marines iirc, so if we could at least get the same amount of firepower…

If that's the case than I'd say there's an argument for Black Templars getting acts of faith

Dark eldar don't have battle focus when CWE does, even though they are both Eldar they have different rules

 fraser1191 wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
2) The rules for Sisters are fine as-is, Marines have very serious problems. Pretending that's not the case is purposeful stupidity or willful ignorance. I'm personally in the camp of nerfing Sisters proactively to prevent the game from having another OP Codex.

That's obvious trolling. I feel it's very unfair that the rules are just for marines. Sisters have a huge lack of long-powered shooting, it would at least make retributor squad more useful! And it would make the rhinos better too! We pay more for them than Marines iirc, so if we could at least get the same amount of firepower…

If that's the case than I'd say there's an argument for Black Templars getting acts of faith

Dark eldar don't have battle focus when CWE does, even though they are both Eldar they have different rules

Exactly. Bolter Discipline has NOTHING to due with the bolter itself, but an Astartes expertise in using bolters. If we want to add the rule to ALL bolters, then we need to give Battle Focus to Dark Eldar and Acts of Faith to BTs.

While we are all sure that Sisters are good at using Bolters, a Marine will always just that much better at using them due to their augmentations and training.
Not all Sisters use Bolters, but EVERY Marine is trained extensively to do so.
There just aren't enough Sisters, Guard or even Custodes that have the same level of training to make a difference in-game, even if a few might be able to match an Astartes

-

 fraser1191 wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
2) The rules for Sisters are fine as-is, Marines have very serious problems. Pretending that's not the case is purposeful stupidity or willful ignorance. I'm personally in the camp of nerfing Sisters proactively to prevent the game from having another OP Codex.

That's obvious trolling. I feel it's very unfair that the rules are just for marines. Sisters have a huge lack of long-powered shooting, it would at least make retributor squad more useful! And it would make the rhinos better too! We pay more for them than Marines iirc, so if we could at least get the same amount of firepower…

If that's the case than I'd say there's an argument for Black Templars getting acts of faith

Dark eldar don't have battle focus when CWE does, even though they are both Eldar they have different rules

And Grey Knights should get Daemonic Ritual. Grey Knights know enough about Daemons, they should be able to summon. Plus they train all the time and their bolters are sacred.

And Ork Gargants should get Rotate Ion Shields. It's not fair that Imperials get all the advantages, their Meks are some of the most inventive engineers in the Universe.

And Guard should get their own version of the beta rule called Lasgun Discipline, since many of them train a whole from birth on how to shoot. Makes sense they would be better than the general Imperium.

And Tyranids should get Killshot on Biovores. They all come from the same spawning pit and share a psychic connection, it only makes sense they would be at the level of a Predator.

These beta rules would be a good start towards fixing the problems that infest 40k!

Of course, there's still the big one, the lack of representation for marginalized communities and casual sexism amongst the player base that cause players to take issue with beta rules for Sisters too. And racism and stuff.

Could the people/person pushing the casual sexism please stop? I like this thread so far and don't want to see it ended prematurely.

Asmodios wrote:

Pancakey wrote:

Asmodios wrote:
Why is it that every time a faction gets a rule there's a ton of people crying that their faction didn't get a clone rule? Like this beta rule that's been out like a week and there's already crying from sisters players for the same rule. Not every faction is supposed to have the same rules and actually, the more you argue for it the more you remove any tangible difference between each army in the game. If sisters end up needing a buff they should look for unique faction specific ways to buff them. Also, the beta rules for sister are still really new and their codex isn't even finalized so doom posting like they are in the same spot as SM is disingenuous at best

The game is converging in the name of streamline ! Can’t you feel samey samey? How many different names did they give deepstrike? Has to be at least 10’by now right? What did that do?

Deepstrike is not a great example as in fluff most armies have something that acts as some type of mid-battle insertion tool and I actually like that they take the time to name each of these appropriately for each faction even if they work the same way rules-wise. What I can't stand is players arguing that unit x needs to do everything unit y does and at the same efficiency. Other then custodes there really shouldn't be another faction in the game that can wield a bolter like a sm. Now im not saying a unit like sisters shouldn't get a buff (if they need it) just that there should be unique ways to make them better that are army specific. I don't want to end up playing a game where everything is essentially the same and the army you pick is equivalent to picking out different pieces for your chess collection.

While I agree with you, we are in the age of convergence, “streamlining” , and micro transactions.

A.T. wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
yeah, and yet none of those people have explained HOW the best units "benefit more than most"

Good units become better. Bad units become... less bad?

the_scotsman wrote:
So sisters of battle need to move close and get within 12". So what?

I think the general concern from that side is that sisters are rather underwhelming with the short to medium range firepower these days despite it being the niche their army is forced into, so anything that moves other factions ahead while they stand still is unfavourable to them.
Particularly due to the various aura and faith effects in the beta codex that push them to more of an immobile gunline approach - though I feel that is a deeper issue with the faction as a whole and personally feel the marines should keep this particular buff to themselves. Sisters should be encouraged to get close, they just aren't all that good at it.

Yes, but that's not actually how you quantify "benefit most". The amount of benefit that any meta unit out of the Deathwatch gets is essentially negligible, wheras the benefit to many non-deahtwatch marine units is far more.

Regardless of whether at the end of the day, the marine unit is better than the deathwatch unit, it doesn't change that the marine unit benefitted more from the rule.

Of all the marine factions, in terms of how much they gain from the rule, you've probably got:

-Blood Angels least: Does not benefit what blood angels do. In a purely competitive sense, the "codex space marines" clones in the BA dex are strictly inferior to taking another chapter as soup, even if you did want to use them over guard/admech/sisters allies for your support role. Essentially gain nothing from the rule.

-Space Wolves second-least: The only thing that might give a toss in the space wolves' usable roster would be something like WG termies, who have access to the coveted power weapon+combi-weapon build that Chaos Termies get, but at Loyalist Termie base price. But their bikers are Hurpity-Durp-tastic so they have no bikes to benefit.

-Deathwatch third-least: Their meta bike unit, the obsec 3 bike 2 vanvet combat squad, does not have the BIKE keyword and doesn't benefit. neither do their meta TDA builds have the TERMINATOR keyword. Their SB/SS vets only benefit from the rule turn 3 onward, and are generally considered to fill the role of Intercessors better than the intercessors do.

-Grey knights third-most: They have a lot of terminators that benefit, but their power armored troops (which make up the bulk of meta GK armies) are just like DW vets in that they tend to DS into position or pop out of a rhino, meaning turn 3 would be the earliest you'd even consider making use of the rule.

-Space Marines second-most: Particularly the two best CT's Raven Guard and Ultras seem to benefit from this rule a lot, since they want to be clumped around reroll bubbles that don't move too fast, and in the case of raven guard they benefit HEAVILY from fighting at 24" rather than 12". They also have Scout Bikers and Sternguard which are the units that possibly like this rule change the most that are used in competitive meta builds.

-Dark Angels most: Synergizes excellently with their CT, and they also love being clumped around a not very mobile buff bubble, and they also have the Dark Talon, arguably the best vehicle to make use of the rule with.

the_scotsman wrote:

-Grey knights third-most: They have a lot of terminators that benefit, but their power armored troops (which make up the bulk of meta GK armies) are just like DW vets in that they tend to DS into position or pop out of a rhino, meaning turn 3 would be the earliest you'd even consider making use of the rule.

I don't see why starting on the table isn't an option. GK used deepstrike to get advantage out of those storm bolters, but are not forced to now. Additionally, the rule states "if the model remained stationary during the previous movement phase", which I take to mean that GoI will let you warp a unit and still shoot at full effect.

This change could make fallen fun to take as well as dark angel vets all with combi plasma, gonna try it out tomorrow

 Formosa wrote:
This change could make fallen fun to take as well as dark angel vets all with combi plasma, gonna try it out tomorrow

Cypher and the Fallen don't actually benefit from this rule since they are lacking both the Adeptus and Heretic Astartes keywords.