New Beta rule - GW Buffs all Marine BOLTERs

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**Marmatag**

techsoldaten wrote:
Mmmpi wrote:
techsoldaten wrote:
kurhanik wrote:
novembermike wrote:
I'm not sure that the rule would make sense for Sisters thematically. Marines are the all range, all strategies, tactically flexible force. Sisters are the melta, flamer and bolter zealots that run at you and knock your teeth in. Giving them rules that promote sitting at 24" doesn't really seem consistent with what the army pushes.

Yeah, I'm fine with them not getting it, but considering Sisters don't have bikers, terminator armor, etc, they wouldn't be receiving one of the big draws of the rule.

I don't think it makes sense for Sisters to get Bolter Discipline for the following reasons:

1) Fluff - Sisters are normal humans with power armor. Space Marines are genetically augmented super soldiers with biomechanical enhancements tailored to improve their tactical efficiency. It makes sense all that engineering would result in a soldier who's handier with their basic armament.

2) Rules - Sisters have their own special mechanics, like Acts of Faith. It makes sense to differentiate between the armies to give each a unique flavor.

3) Points - Sisters are 9 points, Tacticals are 13 points. You can field a lot more Sisters than you can Space Marines. Giving Sisters Bolter Discipline technically nerfs Tacticals, while this rule seems to be aimed at improving the situation for Tacticals (and terminators, and bikes, etc.) It makes sense to focus on Space Marines given their current challenges on the tabletop.

4) It's Not About the Gun - The rule's name is Bolter Discipline, not Better Bolters. The fact the rule applies to bolters is not the point, it suggests a mastery of the weapon in combat. It's not supposed to apply to every single case of someone wielding a bolter, it's supposed to apply to those who have elevated the use over and above the weapon's ordinary use. It makes sense this discipline would be specific to certain forces.

Finally, while it's great that some people have a lot of enthusiasm for Sisters, the last thing anyone needs is another army that throws off game balance. Sisters are pretty tough as-is and I'm not sure I see the deficiency that makes it necessary to tinker with their rules too much.

I think it makes sence for sisters to get bolter discipline for the following reasons:
1) Fluff- Sisters train hours a day using the weapon, which can be used by unaugmented humans with no issues. Sisters infact specialize in it's use.

2) Rules- Space Marines already have better stats, it makes sense that units with similar weapons training would have similar rules.

3) Points- Sisters are 9 points, for that they have a lower leadership, lower strength, lower toughness, and lower WS. The difference in points isn't enough to offset that difference in durability from T4 alone in the use of small arms. Giving sisters bolter disicpline technically buffs sisters to tac marine levels with small arms fire, and vehicles.

4)It's not about the gun - The rule's name is Bolter Discipline, not better bolters. The fact the rule applies to bolters shooting is not the point, it suggests a mastery of the weapon in combat. It's not supposed to apply to every single case of someone wielding a bolter, it's supposed to apply to those who have elevated the use over and above the weapon's ordianary use. It makes sense this discipline would be specific to certain forces, like the ones that consider it's use a literal sacred task.

Finally, while it's great that some people have a lack of understanding of sisters, the last thing anyone needs is another army that throws off game balance. Sister's recent beta heavily nerfed the army, and this rule makes their long range objective holding and vehicles more on par with the rest of the game, particularly imperial units.

While I matched your format, and much of your writing style, all of my points are legitimate reasons why this could be applied to sisters, sisters (silence) and custodies. Granted #3 is a bit of a stretch.

What a clever retort. Thank you for pointing out how you matched my format and writing style, I knew something awesome was happening on but couldn't put my finger on it. Your ability to repeat what others say - but with a twist! - is just incredible.

But I disagree with the idea there are legitimate reasons for applying Bolter Discipline to Sisters. You have presented no arguments to that effect and the responses I've seen from you in this thread are a mix of inaccuracies and talking over other people. Rearranging some words and inserting some pith doesn't say anything unless you also have an intelligent point to make.

Your arguments in all these incredibly clever posts seems to be founded on the idea that spending a lot of time training is somehow on par with genetic engineering, cybernetic augmentation, internal targeting systems, psycho-indoctrination, and all the other stuff that goes into making a Marine.

In response:

1) You have a very unrealistic view of the role of training. Train all they want, a Sister is never going to be at the level of a standard Marine. Training allows one to achieve their physical / mental peak, not to go beyond. In fact, there's plenty of research to show that constant training in any discipline is counterproductive, to sustain any level of tactical effectiveness Sisters would need to engage in a other activities. For example, when you look at elite forces of any Military, the majority of their training routines are focused on goals that don't involve guns and emphasize problem solving / critical thinking skills. So your claim that Sisters spend an exceptional amount of time training on this specific weapon probably means something other than what you think it means, it certainly does not imply they should possess a mastery at the level of someone who was engineered and enhanced to fire it, who is also at his peak.

2) The rules for Sisters are fine as-is, Marines have very serious problems. Pretending that's not the case is purposeful stupidity or willful ignorance. I'm personally in the camp of nerfing Sisters proactively to prevent the game from having another OP Codex.

3) The statline differences mean very little when you are talking about a rule that makes a free weapon more effective. Trying to buff Sisters to Tactical Marine levels is stupid, they are supposed to be different. Are you actually being serious when you say that?

4) I'm not sure what this 'sacred' gibberish has to do with improved mastery of a weapon. What is that proof of, besides the fact you want other people to accept your point uncritically? Is it supposed to be the Emperor squeezing off an extra round for all his wives every time he sends them into battle? If so, why would he favor them over his other subjects, like Guard, who can also have Bolters and whom he certainly loves just as much? Explain your point, don't just use magic space God words and expect everyone to just say OK.

This is the post of the thread. Legendary.

I like how someone can walk in here and say "if you disagree with me that is casual sexism."

"Sisters of battle can have bolter beta rules if they cost 13 points."
"SEXISM!"

**Insectum7**

Marmatag wrote:

I like how someone can walk in here and say "if you disagree with me that is casual sexism."

Nobody said that.

What was said is discussion about the differences between men and women doesn't really have a place in a discussion that is actually about the differences between humans and post-humans in completely separate military organizations. Which is true.

Nor did the quote I'm thinking about have any qualifier about agreement or disagreement.

**Xenomancers**

There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about what a space marine actually is. Lot of people want to treat them like "basic troopers" but a space marine is not a basic trooper. Ever marine is like 600 lb plus and loaded with bio enhancements wearing a nuclear powered battle suit that is integrated into their nervous system. In this game they are like a veteran guardsmen wearing ancient full metal plate.

**ikeulhu**

That is so sad but true.

**w1zard**

Bolter drill is purely for balancing purposes... anyone thinking that marines getting bolter drill and sisters not means that GW is being sexist or unfair is unbelievably stupid.

Right now, tac marines are really worth 11 points (arguably even 10) but cost 13 points. Bolter drill is a way of approaching that parity in a way that ensures that a large majority of the units in the SM codices don't need to be repointed or restatted.

And just to be clear... marines are better than sisters with bolters straight up. Their reaction times are roughly 10 times faster due to enhanced biology, recoil is less of an issue for them due to their enhanced strength, and even the most green marine has more combat experience then your average sister due to the fact that marines are technically immortal and basically live to eat, breathe, and fight in a way that sisters cannot even hope to approach. Space marines are literally superhuman demigods of war. Sisters are roughly equal to stormtrooper quality troops, but as good as they are they cannot hope to approach the combat skill of the Space Marines simply due to their biology.

**Wolf_in_Human_Shape**

It's a decent enough change at the most "shallow" level, so to speak. I think enough people have touched on the shortcomings of the profile and the system itself. Stuff like this seems like a logical choice for trying to tinker with them. But the problems go beyond the bolter. Assault marines and such still aren't touched by this at all or improved in any way. The chainsword seems, at least for many to most chapters and legions, like as much a part of them as their bolters.

**the_scotsman**

Xenomancers wrote:
There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about what a space marine actually is. Lot of people want to treat them like "basic troopers" but a space marine is not a basic trooper. Ever marine is like 600 lb plus and loaded with bio enhancements wearing a nuclear powered battle suit that is integrated into their nervous system. In this game they are like a veteran guardsmen wearing ancient full metal plate.

And yet, and yet... by continuously cheering and applauding the addition of yet more super-duper-duper soldiers and mega-ultra-badasses who must as a rite of passage in 40k kick down a door and Worf the mother-loving heck out of a space marine, tear off his head and spit in his helmet, the 40k playerbase has created a situation where the marine is just a basic trooper.

Biological fantasmagorical mega-enhancements aside, space marines are now, in the scale of a game with Custodes and Knights and Centurions and Dreadknights and Wraithknights and Wulfen and each layer upon layer upon layer of ever escalating super troops...

just regular middle of the road schmoes.

Kinda sad, isn't it. But it's like Syndrome said: "If everyone's super, no-one will be."

**alextroy**

It is amazing how many pages we have gone since a useful post that actually talks about how the Beta Rule we have been presented works in game. Thank you techsoldaten for actually moving this forward.

As for all you arguing if this should apply to Sister, Custodes or anyone else, please go back to the beginning and remember the point of this Beta Rule. People have been discussing how Bolter Marines are just not worth the 13 points they cost. Their combined offense and defense just doesn't stack up to other forces basic infantry units. People have been arguing should Marines get cheaper or more effective.

It seems GW has decided on more effective and has proposed a slight increase to their offense. Test it and let them know if it is not enough, good, or too much. Then they can iterate again and hopefully eventually give us reasonable good Astartes.

**Insectum7**

Xenomancers wrote:
There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about what a space marine actually is. Lot of people want to treat them like "basic troopers" but a space marine is not a basic trooper. Ever marine is like 600 lb plus and loaded with bio enhancements wearing a nuclear powered battle suit that is integrated into their nervous system. In this game they are like a veteran guardsmen wearing ancient full metal plate.

Then theres a lot of misunderstanding of how powerful weapons intended to kill alien monsters and tanks are, and how effective said weapons would be against said marine.

**Niiai**

I see thus thread has gone off topic.

Can somebody summerice who the winning models are fir tgis new rule? Deathwatch shurly.

I mean, it replaces normal rapid fire. So marines who stand stil between 12 and 24? Who else? Bikes and terminators did not seen that great even with this.

**Daedalus81**

Xenomancers wrote:
p5freak wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:

Assault Terminators seem to be one of the few standard-marine anti-Knight units if you can deliver them. That in itself makes them more interesting these days.

All you need is one captn slamguinius to take down a knight. He is a lot better than assault termis when it comes to take out a knight.
Costs less and can actaully do his job compared to assault termies.

Are we ignoring the CP and relic he's using to do that again? Or that flying charges aren't a thing?

**Insectum7**

Niiai wrote:
I see thus thread has gone off topic.

Can somebody summerice who the winning models are fir tgis new rule? Deathwatch shurly.

I mean, it replaces normal rapid fire. So marines who stand stil between 12 and 24? Who else? Bikes and terminators did not seen that great even with this.

Rhinos with dual Storm Bolters!

**techsoldaten**

Niiai wrote:
I see thus thread has gone off topic.

Can somebody summerice who the winning models are fir tgis new rule? Deathwatch shurly.

I mean, it replaces normal rapid fire. So marines who stand stil between 12 and 24? Who else? Bikes and terminators did not seen that great even with this.

I've played a test game with it, marginal increase of efficiency for CSMs. As you point out, it's situational, but it resulted in about 30 more wounds against light infantry. This would not have done nearly as much against MEQ or TEQ.

Where I saw the biggest 'boost' was with combi-bolters on laspreds. With 4 shots, they were good for dealing an extra wound or two, which lead to a couple morale checks.

So I would not be so quick to discount the buff to bikes and terminators. Combi-bolter Chosen just became a lot more attractive.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
p5freak wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:

Assault Terminators seem to be one of the few standard-marine anti-Knight units if you can deliver them. That in itself makes them more interesting these days.

All you need is one captn slamguinius to take down a knight. He is a lot better than assault termis when it comes to take out a knight.
Costs less and can actaully do his job compared to assault termies.

Are we ignoring the CP and relic he's using to do that again? Or that flying charges aren't a thing?

And the 200 points that can't reliably make the charge is a better option?

**Lemondish**

Niiai wrote:
I see thus thread has gone off topic.

Can somebody summerice who the winning models are fir tgis new rule? Deathwatch shurly.

I mean, it replaces normal rapid fire. So marines who stand stil between 12 and 24? Who else? Bikes and terminators did not seen that great even with this.

Not convinced Deathwatch benefit much. You usually drop your vets in rapid fire anyway, and units like Intercessors tend to come in mixed squads that won't benefit from the rule. Terminators and bikes added into the squads won't benefit because of the missing keywords. Standalone bikes would need to give up on obsec and falling back to shoot from the vet combat squad set up. I'm also not convinced many will rush out to try standalone Terminators when vets can do the same job better.

It'll make unpopular units like those two slightly less inefficient to take in semi-competitive matches (where 85% of the game lives) but it's not a huge boon for them.

**alextroy**

techsoldaten wrote:
Niiai wrote:
I see thus thread has gone off topic.

Can somebody summerice who the winning models are fir tgis new rule? Deathwatch shurly.

I mean, it replaces normal rapid fire. So marines who stand stil between 12 and 24? Who else? Bikes and terminators did not seen that great even with this.

I've played a test game with it, marginal increase of efficiency for CSMs. As you point out, it's situational, but it resulted in about 30 more wounds against light infantry. This would not have done nearly as much against MEQ or TEQ.

Where I saw the biggest 'boost' was with combi-bolters on laspreds. With 4 shots, they were good for dealing an extra wound or two, which lead to a couple morale checks.

So I would not be so quick to discount the buff to bikes and terminators. Combi-bolter Chosen just became a lot more attractive

It takes a CSM 3.375 Shots to Kill a Guardsman while 9 Shots to kill a MEQ.

30 * 3.375 / 9 = 11.25 dead MEQ

So two 5-Model Tactical Squads. Not Meta-Shattering, but not trivial either.

**techsoldaten**

alextroy wrote:
techsoldaten wrote:
Niiai wrote:
I see thus thread has gone off topic.

Can somebody summerice who the winning models are fir tgis new rule? Deathwatch shurly.

I mean, it replaces normal rapid fire. So marines who stand stil between 12 and 24? Who else? Bikes and terminators did not seen that great even with this.

I've played a test game with it, marginal increase of efficiency for CSMs. As you point out, it's situational, but it resulted in about 30 more wounds against light infantry. This would not have done nearly as much against MEQ or TEQ.

Where I saw the biggest 'boost' was with combi-bolters on laspreds. With 4 shots, they were good for dealing an extra wound or two, which lead to a couple morale checks.

So I would not be so quick to discount the buff to bikes and terminators. Combi-bolter Chosen just became a lot more attractive
It takes a CSM 3.375 Shots to Kill a Guardsman while 9 Shots to kill a MEQ.

30 * 3.375 / 9 = 11.25 dead MEQ

So two 5-Model Tactical Squads. Not Meta-Shattering, but not trivial either.

Almost.

It was more like 18 additional wounds due to the beta rule and another 10 lost to morale (where casualties included regular shooting.)

Two other important factors:

1) I was playing Black Legion and had rerolls to hit from Abaddon.

2) My army never moved. I gunned down his Knight and an Armiger first turn, he had to come to me.

**Spoletta**

Niiai wrote:
I see thus thread has gone off topic.

Can somebody summerice who the winning models are fir tgis new rule? Deathwatch shurly.

I mean, it replaces normal rapid fire. So marines who stand stil between 12 and 24? Who else? Bikes and terminators did not seen that great even with this.

Dark Angels get quite a lot out of this. They have always been the SM king of castling and firing, this makes the basic troops like intercessors useful parts of those castles.

**Daedalus81**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

And the 200 points that can't reliably make the charge is a better option?

If terminators get caught out they're more likely to survive if given equal attention. Tartaros SW termies are 6" and have easy access to reroll charges.

It all depends on how you want to view the real cost of smash cap.
- 114 for Smash
- 180 for the CP to power him
- Two out of three detachments to make him work
- No screen in his way

I don't see him playing a large role in the upcoming meta.

**Spoletta**

Smash captain was excellent when you played with unlimited CPs, now you have to make them count. Even if you value a CP at only 20 points, the smash captain is bordering Gallant levels of cost.

**tneva82**

secretForge wrote:
Ghorgul wrote:
There is something fundamentally wrong in the game if 'Cheaper MSU' is legitimate argument for something being better than the other. Basically people are only taking certain units because they have to in order to get CPs.

I wanna see what happens when only Troops choice can score objectives, is this too anarchistic?

This was in my mind, what made 5th eddition so great (along with not using progressive scoring). It made troops so important because if you didn't have some left by the end, you weren't going to win, regardless of how much you had invested into killing your opponent).

Of course such a rule might not work any more in an edition where hordes of troops are already very effective, and progressive scoring is so popular.

Of course then it simply says "screw you" for armies that have worse troops than others...

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nym wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:

Not using your aspiring sorcerors as casters when the Change discipline exists is ridiculous.

But saying that Gaze of Fate or a CP are always available is just as ridiculous. We all know the odds are low, nevertheless gak happens very often when you play this army, and losing half a squad of Rubrics or Ahriman / Daemon Prince because of a Peril is something that happens every other game.

Anyway, this rule is a step in the right direction even though I also hope that the final version will allow Rubrics and Plague Marines to move and shoot as if stationnary. I dream of playing an army of Rubric Marines moving forward slowly while shooting. Right now it's just a dream.

Yes bad luck happens. Tough. Orks are gambling on 78% charges working off. That fails and the unit basically gets deleted without doing anything. 22% chance to fail is bit bigger than perilling and 220 or so boyz dying without killing anything isn't anything to sniff at.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Oh please, like Morale ever actually mattered.

My orks have felt it ever since(like year ago) to spread fire so that not only unit gets half the unit dead but nearby unit also gets wiped out. With codex it's even easier due to less boyz. And the least you say about grots...With 6 grot units being practically mandatory for CP that's easily, even with runtherd/warboss around, 6d3 extra casualties. 2 units worth it. Without even requiring significant firepower.

Orks hate morale!

**Eldarsif**

Niiai wrote:
I see thus thread has gone off topic.

Can somebody summerice who the winning models are fir tgis new rule? Deathwatch shurly.

I mean, it replaces normal rapid fire. So marines who stand stil between 12 and 24? Who else? Bikes and terminators did not seen that great even with this.

My opinion is that Termies and Bikers will get the best use out of this along with vehicles.

Termies threat bubble increases somewhat and bikers become better kiters.

Troops in general won't benefit as much unless they remain stationary. For that the standard trooper has too short of a range and generally you need to move up the battlefield to claim objectives.

**BertBert**

Niiai wrote:
I see thus thread has gone off topic.

Can somebody summerice who the winning models are fir tgis new rule? Deathwatch shurly.

I mean, it replaces normal rapid fire. So marines who stand stil between 12 and 24? Who else? Bikes and terminators did not seen that great even with this.

Intercessors seem to be in a stronger place now, especially Raven Guard, since there is no downside to just parking them somewhere anymore.

**topaxygouroun i**

Hmmm.

Just found out that Chosen can take combi weapons. And that combi plasma is the same points as a plasmagun, for some reason. And that you can have 6 combi plasmas in a unit of 6. And a chaos lord can also take a combi plasma and give them reroll 1's.

How about a unit of 6 chosen with combi plasmas + lord? That would be 28 bolter shots + 7 plasma shots with reroll 1's. Enter 12" and you get the 14 overloaded plasma treatment. The combination costs about 230 pts and fits in a rhino.

**vipoid**

Xenomancers wrote:
There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about what a space marine actually is. Lot of people want to treat them like "basic troopers"

GW among them...

**PiñaColada**

They cost the same because of the drawback of firing both profiles, getting -1 to hit (unlike a combi-flamer where you're getting bolter shots for "free"). So the balance becomes, do you think it's worth missing your plasma shots to get some extra bolters in (at the same target, so probably sub-optimal firing conditions)? This isn't even taking into consideration that you're now overheating on 1&2's if you're overcharging. Although you can somewhat mitigate that with prescience

**topaxygouroun i**

PiñaColada wrote:
They cost the same because of the drawback of firing both profiles, getting -1 to hit (unlike a combi-flamer where you're getting bolter shots for "free"). So the balance becomes, do you think it's worth missing your plasma shots to get some extra bolters in (at the same target, so probably sub-optimal firing conditions)? This isn't even taking into consideration that you're now overheating on 1&2's if you're overcharging. Although you can somewhat mitigate that with prescience

Still combi melta is not the same as meltagun in points.

Regardless, I don't think it makes sense not to give them the combi plasmas instead of normal plasmaguns and have a unit that's good both against hordes and elites. I think I dig it.

**PiñaColada**

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Still combi melta is not the same as meltagun in points.

Regardless, I don't think it makes sense not to give them the combi plasmas instead of normal plasmaguns and have a unit that's good both against hordes and elites. I think I dig it.

Hmm, didn't realise that combi-melta wasn't the same point structure. Well GW hasn't priced the melta correctly in 8th overall so perhaps that does make sense. But yeah, choosing a combi-plasma is obviously better since it gives you flexibility for 0 points. Also if you're charged then overwatch is just better since those modifiers don't apply.

**Cybtroll**

Combi plasma drops in point in CA. Probably because it's the only combi-weapons that has an intrinsic malus attached to the -1 (outside missing the shot)

**PiñaColada**

Sure, but it's still a no-brainer auto-take option since it does give you flexibility and better overwatch for 0 points and 0 drawbacks. Not like you have to shoot both profiles.

It's not a big deal, but all combi-weapons should probably cost the same as the special weapon + 1 point.