techsoldaten wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

kurhanik wrote:

novembermike wrote:
I'm not sure that the rule would make sense for Sisters thematically. Marines are the all range, all strategies, tactically flexible force. Sisters are the melta, flamer and bolter zealots that run at you and knock your teeth in. Giving them rules that promote sitting at 24" doesn't really seem consistent with what the army pushes.

Yeah, I'm fine with them not getting it, but considering Sisters don't have bikers, terminator armor, etc, they wouldn't be receiving one of the big draws of the rule.

I don't think it makes sense for Sisters to get Bolter Discipline for the following reasons:

1) Fluff - Sisters are normal humans with power armor. Space Marines are genetically augmented super soldiers with biomechanical enhancements tailored to improve their tactical efficiency. It makes sense all that engineering would result in a soldier who's handier with their basic armament.

2) Rules - Sisters have their own special mechanics, like Acts of Faith. It makes sense to differentiate between the armies to give each a unique flavor.

3) Points - Sisters are 9 points, Tacticals are 13 points. You can field a lot more Sisters than you can Space Marines. Giving Sisters Bolter Discipline technically nerfs Tacticals, while this rule seems to be aimed at improving the situation for Tacticals (and terminators, and bikes, etc.) It makes sense to focus on Space Marines given their current challenges on the tabletop.

4) It's Not About the Gun - The rule's name is Bolter Discipline, not Better Bolters. The fact the rule applies to bolters is not the point, it suggests a mastery of the weapon in combat. It's not supposed to apply to every single case of someone wielding a bolter, it's supposed to apply to those who have elevated the use over and above the weapon's ordinary use. It makes sense this discipline would be specific to certain forces.

Finally, while it's great that some people have a lot of enthusiasm for Sisters, the last thing anyone needs is another army that throws off game balance. Sisters are pretty tough as-is and I'm not sure I see the deficiency that makes it necessary to tinker with their rules too much.

I think it makes sence for sisters to get bolter discipline for the following reasons:
1) Fluff- Sisters train hours a day using the weapon, which can be used by unaugmented humans with no issues. Sisters infact specialize in it's use.

2) Rules- Space Marines already have better stats, it makes sense that units with similar weapons training would have similar rules.

3) Points- Sisters are 9 points, for that they have a lower leadership, lower strength, lower toughness, and lower WS. The difference in points isn't enough to offset that difference in durability from T4 alone in the use of small arms. Giving sisters bolter disicpline technically buffs sisters to tac marine levels with small arms fire, and vehicles.

4)It's not about the gun - The rule's name is Bolter Discipline, not better bolters. The fact the rule applies to bolters shooting is not the point, it suggests a mastery of the weapon in combat. It's not supposed to apply to every single case of someone wielding a bolter, it's supposed to apply to those who have elevated the use over and above the weapon's ordianary use. It makes sense this discipline would be specific to certain forces, like the ones that consider it's use a literal sacred task.

Finally, while it's great that some people have a lack of understanding of sisters, the last thing anyone needs is another army that throws off game balance. Sister's recent beta heavily nerfed the army, and this rule makes their long range objective holding and vehicles more on par with the rest of the game, particularly imperial units.

While I matched your format, and much of your writing style, all of my points are legitimate reasons why this could be applied to sisters, sisters (silence) and custodies. Granted #3 is a bit of a stretch.

What a clever retort. Thank you for pointing out how you matched my format and writing style, I knew something awesome was happening on but couldn't put my finger on it. Your ability to repeat what others say - but with a twist! - is just incredible.

But I disagree with the idea there are legitimate reasons for applying Bolter Discipline to Sisters. You have presented no arguments to that effect and the responses I've seen from you in this thread are a mix of inaccuracies and talking over other people. Rearranging some words and inserting some pith doesn't say anything unless you also have an intelligent point to make.

Your arguments in all these incredibly clever posts seems to be founded on the idea that spending a lot of time training is somehow on par with genetic engineering, cybernetic augmentation, internal targeting systems, psycho-indoctrination, and all the other stuff that goes into making a Marine.

In response:

1) You have a very unrealistic view of the role of training. Train all they want, a Sister is never going to be at the level of a standard Marine. Training allows one to achieve their physical / mental peak, not to go beyond. In fact, there's plenty of research to show that constant training in any discipline is counterproductive, to sustain any level of tactical effectiveness Sisters would need to engage in a other activities. For example, when you look at elite forces of any Military, the majority of their training routines are focused on goals that don't involve guns and emphasize problem solving / critical thinking skills. So your claim that Sisters spend an exceptional amount of time training on this specific weapon probably means something other than what you think it means, it certainly does not imply they should possess a mastery at the level of someone who was engineered and enhanced to fire it, who is also at his peak.

2) The rules for Sisters are fine as-is, Marines have very serious problems. Pretending that's not the case is purposeful stupidity or willful ignorance. I'm personally in the camp of nerfing Sisters proactively to prevent the game from having another OP Codex.

3) The statline differences mean very little when you are talking about a rule that makes a free weapon more effective. Trying to buff Sisters to Tactical Marine levels is stupid, they are supposed to be different. Are you actually being serious when you say that?

4) I'm not sure what this 'sacred' gibberish has to do with improved mastery of a weapon. What is that proof of, besides the fact you want other people to accept your point uncritically? Is it supposed to be the Emperor squeezing off an extra round for all his wives every time he sends them into battle? If so, why would he favor them over his other subjects, like Guard, who can also have Bolters and whom he certainly loves just as much? Explain your point, don't just use magic space God words and expect everyone to just say OK.

Karol wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:


Why wouldn't they be training the same? Because ballistics don't change just because the wielder does.

But it does. Marines are able to use their bolters one handed or shot as good from the hip as any other position. Only thing better is super rare assasin gear that gives some of them both a 360 field of vision, and the change to brain chemistry that they do not get overhelmed by the shoting. And this is just one thing. A marine can shot while being under fire, and they survive incoming fire better then any human male or not in power armor. If there were man in power armor, then SM would be shoting better then them too. A human in power armor just can't do some stuff marines can, and this is before we get in to different version of power armors and bolters.

For example, when you look at elite forces of any Military, the majority of their training routines are focused on goals that don't involve guns and emphasize problem solving / critical thinking skills

you mixing up veterans with spec ops. Veterans are veterans, because they trained and because they were in combat. They act like machines and don't get shell shocked as easier. They react to danger faster, because they expiriance stuff etc.

A biological difference that had no reason to be brought up.

Why? Just check modern military studies on units with mixed squads and companies, their loses and efficiency at completing assigned tasks. In case of marines and SoB the differences would be even bigger, because we aren't comparing human to human. But a human to super human. If you take a normal human male or female in power armor, and he gets hit by the same type of projectile they may still suffer internal injuries or at least shock, at the same time marines, and even more in the case of primaris would not be effected as much or even at all. This means they can utilise tactics unmodifed troops can not use. Plus non marine power armor, which may have the same save in game, does not have systems in the w40k world. The marine armor is just superior, specially the primaris armor.

That probably has nothing to do with trainin

It is less training, but more the fact that a marine driver is jacked in to the systems of his vehicle. That is a bit like someone having a WWII tank fighting someone a tank from the 70s. Am not saying that driving and shoting for 100-200years doesn't have influence on a drivers ability use the vehicles arment though.