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 Apple Peel wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Marines have superior training, additionally, marines are generally older, so have also had decades to centuries of training with said Bolter plus additional advantages they have such as the neural link etc. As far as I am aware, sisters of battle are not genetically tweaked to be potentially immortal. Thus, marines also have experience on their side with the weapon, and thus deserve the rule over sisters.

And Custodes?

Custodes don’t bother, being warrior-scholars. In the same fashion that they don’t bother to get Special Issue Ammo.

riiiiigggghhht......

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Marines have superior training, additionally, marines are generally older, so have also had decades to centuries of training with said Bolter plus additional advantages they have such as the neural link etc. As far as I am aware, sisters of battle are not genetically tweaked to be potentially immortal. Thus, marines also have experience on their side with the weapon, and thus deserve the rule over sisters.

And Custodes?

Custodes don’t bother, being warrior-scholars. In the same fashion that they don’t bother to get Special Issue Ammo.

riiiiigggghhht......

The Custodes just don’t care, m8.

The Custodes fluff disagrees with you.

Can we get this thread back on track please?

 ingtaer wrote:

Can we get this thread back on track please?

yes, please.

I cant wait to try it out with the CA18 city rules and urban conquest.

 Mr Morden wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Marines have superior training, additionally, marines are generally older, so have also had decades to centuries of training with said Bolter plus additional advantages they have such as the neural link etc. As far as I am aware, sisters of battle are not genetically tweaked to be potentially immortal. Thus, marines also have experience on their side with the weapon, and thus deserve the rule over sisters.

And Custodes?

More importantly - and why do the new trainees who are not in power armour (and therefore don't get the black carapace link) get the rule (Scouts)?

 Dysartes wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Marines have superior training, additionally, marines are generally older, so have also had decades to centuries of training with said Bolter plus additional advantages they have such as the neural link etc. As far as I am aware, sisters of battle are not genetically tweaked to be potentially immortal. Thus, marines also have experience on their side with the weapon, and thus deserve the rule over sisters.

And Custodes?

More importantly - and why do the new trainees who are not in power armour (and therefore don't get the black carapace link) get the rule (Scouts)?

Because of this being implanted in to an aspirant at the age of 16-18

I think that the idea behind the bolter rule is not so much that marines are better than anyone else with bolters but that it is a weapon that is essential to their identity, that they know by heart.
Custodes, altho I personally believe should have the bolter discipline rule, do not specifically care about bolters : all their weapons are close combat weapons that also have the capacity to shoot but it is really secondary to their esthetics/identity imo.

Played a game last night using the beta bolter rules against a Drukhari list.

My Black Legion list was tailored to maximize the number of combi-bolters along with the overall speed of the army. It consisted of:

- Chaos Lord on Bike, Combi-Bolter, Black Mace
- Chaos Sorcerer in Terminator Armor, Prescience / Warptime
- 3 x 20 man Cultist squads
- 2x Chaos Terminators, combi-bolters and power axes
- 3x Chosen, 8 men, 5 combi-bolters and a plasma gun
- 3x Rhinos, 2 combi-bolters each
- Helbrute, scourge and twin lascannons
- 3x Bikers, 3 man, no upgrades
- Heldrake, Hades Autocannon

For a total of 37 combi-bolters and 6 Bolters. Not a lot of heavy weapons, but there's a lot of shots each turn.

I don't have the Drukhari list, the important parts were a Void Raven, 3 Ravagers with disintegrator cannons, 3 Venoms, Jetbikes, Mandrakes, and some Kabbalites. It's a competitive list, I've fought it before and always get screwed up by the disintegrator cannons and the mandrakes.

General Impressions:

1) My overall impression: the volume of fire with the beta rule is impressive. Four shots from a single model at 24 inches was striking, there was a turn where I fired over 100 bolter rounds.

2) There's a world of difference between combi-bolters and straight bolters. Instead of chipping off a wound here or there, units were falling to the volume of fire.

3) Bikes are a lot better with the beta rule. I can see cheap bike squads that move up, shoot and charge being a thing now.

4) Terminators with combi-bolters might be viable. They got their work done with axes, but I didn't feel like I had to have combi-plasma on all of them.

5) Rhinos with double combi-bolters are interesting. They were being ignored, but the 8 shots proved useful more than once.

I deployed the Cultist, Chosen in Rhinos, Helbrute, Heldrake, Bikes and Chaos Lord spread across my table edge. I got first turn and everything in my army had something within 24 inches by turn 2. My guys unloaded with Bolter shots that turn, which let me take out 2 Venoms and most of the Jetbikes. I also had the Terminators and the Sorcerer drop in that turn to make things hard for my opponent.

While I didn't win this kill-point game, I could see how a list like this could be optimized, maybe as another Chapter. Throughout the game, I was thinking it would have more interesting as World Eaters, where the combi-bolters may have provided some cover for advancing Berzerkers. The number of shots from a combi-weapon gets your opponent's attention.

At one point, my opponent and I discussed the similarities between combi-weapons and Sonic Blasters. I was a Noise Marine player at the start of 8th edition, the beta rule brings the combi-bolter a lot closer to being the same gun with one more shot and without the ignores cover rule. I'm not sure it would look this way without massed combi-bolters, you really need a lot of shots to see any benefit. But, when you are spraying a ton of shots, good things do happen. I could almost see Chosen in an Emperor's Children list just to benefit from the strikes first rule.

Overall, my impressions were that the units that most benefit from the beta rule are Bikers and Rhinos.

For Bikers, these were minimum sized units that were moving up the board, spraying a ton of shots then charging. It would be a good way to clear Chaff / Light Infantry / Orks early in the game. The fact they are small, separate units could mess with an opponent's target priority. But it's the fact they are laying out 12 shots each - for a total of 36 - that made them appealing. They were able to take a Venom down to 1 wound before the charge and that proved to be important.

Rhinos are surprising good for the points. After they discharged their occupants, my opponent ignored them and that didn't work out well for him. His Mandrakes wiped out a squad of Cultists and one Rhino was able to kill the last 2 models in his squad. While 8 shots is not amazing, it was enough to score some clutch wounds.

While the beta bolter rule was useful on Terminators, they weren't doing anything they couldn't do better with combi-plasma. If anything, the big impact is in terms of list building, it makes an expensive unit a little cheaper while not sacrificing too much offense.

However - the Terminators only got to shoot for one turn before they were charged, after that, they were just consolidating into other combats. Given this, I'm not sure the combi-plasma would have been worth it in the first place.

Honorable mention for the Chosen unit that got into cover and withstood an enormous amount of shooting without taking a wound.

Interesting. I've been trying it out with deathwatch primaris standing still and have found it to be pretty brutal.

Thanks for the breakdown, techsoldaten. It’s nice to have some on-topic information. I am planning to try bikers myself alongside my World Eaters, either in the WE detachment or in a renegade detachment for advance/charge shenanigans.

Karol wrote:

Spoiler:

 Dysartes wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Marines have superior training, additionally, marines are generally older, so have also had decades to centuries of training with said Bolter plus additional advantages they have such as the neural link etc. As far as I am aware, sisters of battle are not genetically tweaked to be potentially immortal. Thus, marines also have experience on their side with the weapon, and thus deserve the rule over sisters.

And Custodes?

More importantly - and why do the new trainees who are not in power armour (and therefore don't get the black carapace link) get the rule (Scouts)?

Because of this being implanted in to an aspirant at the age of 16-18

Spoiler:

Occulobe:
This implant sits at the base of the brain, and provides hormonal and genetic stimuli which enable a Marine's eyes to respond to optic-therapy. This in turn allows the Apothecaries to make adjustments to the growth patterns of the eye and the light-receptive retinal cells - the result being that Space Marines have far superior vision to normal humans, and can see in low-light conditions almost as well as in dayligh

Sisters (and space marine) helmets have night vision optics.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 techsoldaten wrote:

Spoiler:

Played a game last night using the beta bolter rules against a Drukhari list.

My Black Legion list was tailored to maximize the number of combi-bolters along with the overall speed of the army. It consisted of:

- Chaos Lord on Bike, Combi-Bolter, Black Mace
- Chaos Sorcerer in Terminator Armor, Prescience / Warptime
- 3 x 20 man Cultist squads
- 2x Chaos Terminators, combi-bolters and power axes
- 3x Chosen, 8 men, 5 combi-bolters and a plasma gun
- 3x Rhinos, 2 combi-bolters each
- Helbrute, scourge and twin lascannons
- 3x Bikers, 3 man, no upgrades
- Heldrake, Hades Autocannon

For a total of 37 combi-bolters and 6 Bolters. Not a lot of heavy weapons, but there's a lot of shots each turn.

I don't have the Drukhari list, the important parts were a Void Raven, 3 Ravagers with disintegrator cannons, 3 Venoms, Jetbikes, Mandrakes, and some Kabbalites. It's a competitive list, I've fought it before and always get screwed up by the disintegrator cannons and the mandrakes.

General Impressions:

1) My overall impression: the volume of fire with the beta rule is impressive. Four shots from a single model at 24 inches was striking, there was a turn where I fired over 100 bolter rounds.

2) There's a world of difference between combi-bolters and straight bolters. Instead of chipping off a wound here or there, units were falling to the volume of fire.

3) Bikes are a lot better with the beta rule. I can see cheap bike squads that move up, shoot and charge being a thing now.

4) Terminators with combi-bolters might be viable. They got their work done with axes, but I didn't feel like I had to have combi-plasma on all of them.

5) Rhinos with double combi-bolters are interesting. They were being ignored, but the 8 shots proved useful more than once.

I deployed the Cultist, Chosen in Rhinos, Helbrute, Heldrake, Bikes and Chaos Lord spread across my table edge. I got first turn and everything in my army had something within 24 inches by turn 2. My guys unloaded with Bolter shots that turn, which let me take out 2 Venoms and most of the Jetbikes. I also had the Terminators and the Sorcerer drop in that turn to make things hard for my opponent.

While I didn't win this kill-point game, I could see how a list like this could be optimized, maybe as another Chapter. Throughout the game, I was thinking it would have more interesting as World Eaters, where the combi-bolters may have provided some cover for advancing Berzerkers. The number of shots from a combi-weapon gets your opponent's attention.

At one point, my opponent and I discussed the similarities between combi-weapons and Sonic Blasters. I was a Noise Marine player at the start of 8th edition, the beta rule brings the combi-bolter a lot closer to being the same gun with one more shot and without the ignores cover rule. I'm not sure it would look this way without massed combi-bolters, you really need a lot of shots to see any benefit. But, when you are spraying a ton of shots, good things do happen. I could almost see Chosen in an Emperor's Children list just to benefit from the strikes first rule.

Overall, my impressions were that the units that most benefit from the beta rule are Bikers and Rhinos.

For Bikers, these were minimum sized units that were moving up the board, spraying a ton of shots then charging. It would be a good way to clear Chaff / Light Infantry / Orks early in the game. The fact they are small, separate units could mess with an opponent's target priority. But it's the fact they are laying out 12 shots each - for a total of 36 - that made them appealing. They were able to take a Venom down to 1 wound before the charge and that proved to be important.

Rhinos are surprising good for the points. After they discharged their occupants, my opponent ignored them and that didn't work out well for him. His Mandrakes wiped out a squad of Cultists and one Rhino was able to kill the last 2 models in his squad. While 8 shots is not amazing, it was enough to score some clutch wounds.

While the beta bolter rule was useful on Terminators, they weren't doing anything they couldn't do better with combi-plasma. If anything, the big impact is in terms of list building, it makes an expensive unit a little cheaper while not sacrificing too much offense.

However - the Terminators only got to shoot for one turn before they were charged, after that, they were just consolidating into other combats. Given this, I'm not sure the combi-plasma would have been worth it in the first place.

Honorable mention for the Chosen unit that got into cover and withstood an enormous amount of shooting without taking a wound.

Thanks for the write up and test. Can't wait to hear the results of a WE test run, if you do one.

Sisters (and space marine) helmets have night vision optics.

But sisters don't have:
modified eyes.
modified brain structure and chemistry to react faster.
And in case of non scouts, the neural link between the armor, weapon system and marine.

Even the helmet targeting system, works better for marines with black carapace then for unaugmented sister. We are comparing manual systems to fully integrated ones with support. That is why I said that SoB training is not enough, they would have to litteraly use magic while shoting like orcs to be equal to marines. Not impossible, but it does not make them anywhere near as good shots.

The beta bolter rule has NOTHING to do with the bolter itself, it's representing the inherent superhuman nature of Astartes.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
The beta bolter rule has NOTHING to do with the bolter itself, it's representing the inherent superhuman nature of Astartes.

No its a pure balancing mechanism otherwise Custodes would have it (or better).

 Mr Morden wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
The beta bolter rule has NOTHING to do with the bolter itself, it's representing the inherent superhuman nature of Astartes.

No its a pure balancing mechanism otherwise Custodes would have it (or better).

Well they already have BS2+ so that helps.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
The beta bolter rule has NOTHING to do with the bolter itself, it's representing the inherent superhuman nature of Astartes.

the thing with black carapace is that with it the bolter kind of a becomes the part of a marines body. The only way for it to be more part of his body, is if the marine in question was some Iron Hand and had the bolter build in to his arm.

No its a pure balancing mechanism otherwise Custodes would have it (or better).

There are people who are good at melee just because. I go to a sports school, and we have a guy who trains wrestling. He is great at ju jistu, boxing, kick boxing etc. Even if he does not train them. On top of natural skills he has a killer body, 1,82cm high 90kg weight and he is 2 years older then me. When we first saw him we thought he was an instructur and not a 3ed year. Custodes are like that, they are great with all weapons, they have perfect bodies, but they train in very specific ways of combat. Marines are no where near as good as custodes, but because of how they are trained, how they go through being devs, assaults, scouts etc they are perfect warriors with all types of warfare. Now in rules those perfect tactical warriors suck, but it is good that GW is trying to give marines rules to make them better.

Are you guys still jumping through hoops to try and get a rule onto factions other than the one it's designed for?

I would prefer a +1 to rapid fire, in order to dissuade a static gunline and to push marine as a mobile force apt to close firefight.

But I play DA and my marine already move very little... while my bike can easily get an Ignore Cover to boot, so I will not complain.

Karol wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Marines have superior training, additionally, marines are generally older, so have also had decades to centuries of training with said Bolter plus additional advantages they have such as the neural link etc. As far as I am aware, sisters of battle are not genetically tweaked to be potentially immortal. Thus, marines also have experience on their side with the weapon, and thus deserve the rule over sisters.

And Custodes?

More importantly - and why do the new trainees who are not in power armour (and therefore don't get the black carapace link) get the rule (Scouts)?

Because of this being implanted in to an aspirant at the age of 16-18

Spoiler:

Occulobe:
This implant sits at the base of the brain, and provides hormonal and genetic stimuli which enable a Marine's eyes to respond to optic-therapy. This in turn allows the Apothecaries to make adjustments to the growth patterns of the eye and the light-receptive retinal cells - the result being that Space Marines have far superior vision to normal humans, and can see in low-light conditions almost as well as in dayligh

*listens to the sound of the goalposts moving again*

Also, which of your characters is posting in this thread, Karol?

The reasoning given for SM getting this was black carapace integration giving them a link to the bolter - not the occulobe's improved vision. And given that the effective range of a boltgun in 40k is apparently ~50 yards, I doubt the improved eyesight is doing much...

 Cybtroll wrote:
I would prefer a +1 to rapid fire, in order to dissuade a static gunline and to push marine as a mobile force apt to close firefight.

But I play DA and my marine already move very little... while my bike can easily get an Ignore Cover to boot, so I will not complain.

I usually play a Black Legion gunline with ~30 CSMs.

Originally, I thought the beta Bolter rule should be modified to an AP -1. Unless your opponent is moving at you with light infantry, it offers very little real benefit. Agreed that Marines should be a mobile force geared towards a close firefight.

But then I played another game, this time with Bikes and Terminators. Combi-Bolters have a big volume of fire, 4 shots per model all the time meant I was rolling a lot of dice. I flooded an opponent with Bikes, Terminators and Chosen with Combi-Bolters and put out a lot of damage. So it is possible to move with this force and get the rapid fire shooting, the only thing I have to say is it only really matters when it's massed and you are hitting an opponent early in the game.

So I'm asking myself what's the benefit of AP -1 compared to 2 shots - a 16% weaker saving throw compared with more chances to wound. The math favors Bolters against MEQ and below, it doesn't work as well against TEQ and above. That's probably how it should be, but the downside is there's situations where you have a CSM squad standing there with no good targets to shoot at. Everything else that can carry a Bolter gets rapid fire all the time.

I think it makes more sense to have Bolters be stronger against Infantry and the same against armor. The net effect is probably going to be that people use Tacticals / CSMs less in favor of Bikes / Terminators, but it's early to say that. Also, game size matters, I've been testing the beta Bolter rule at 2,000 points and I'd probably play it differently at 1,000 or on a smaller board. My 1,000 point list is Cultist-heavy and there may be reasons to want to use CSMs there.

My next game is with my Grey Knights, who have a Land Raider Crusader and a Storm Raven. Really looking forward to seeing how Hurricane Bolters perform. One of the things that irritates me about Interceptors is the impulse to always teleport within double tap range (I lose a lot of troops that way.) Thinking this may affect how I play them, maybe by teleporting into cover somewhere within 24 inches first turn before deep strikers arrive to give me a massed fist.

One thing that's definitely true, this rule favors highly mobile units. Being able to immediately get in someone's face and throw down a lot of dice is a different experience than how I've been playing.

WhiteDog wrote:
I think that the idea behind the bolter rule is not so much that marines are better than anyone else with bolters but that it is a weapon that is essential to their identity, that they know by heart.

It's even more the case for Sisters.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:
I think that the idea behind the bolter rule is not so much that marines are better than anyone else with bolters but that it is a weapon that is essential to their identity, that they know by heart.

It's even more the case for Sisters.

Tbh it'd probably be reasonable to give this rule to sisters for 1-2 more points.

 techsoldaten wrote:


For Bikers, these were minimum sized units that were moving up the board, spraying a ton of shots then charging. It would be a good way to clear Chaff / Light Infantry / Orks early in the game. The fact they are small, separate units could mess with an opponent's target priority. But it's the fact they are laying out 12 shots each - for a total of 36 - that made them appealing. They were able to take a Venom down to 1 wound before the charge and that proved to be important.

Your sarge can get an extra combi bolter. Each unit of bikes can shoot 16.

Karol wrote:

Sisters (and space marine) helmets have night vision optics.

But sisters don't have:
modified eyes.
modified brain structure and chemistry to react faster.
And in case of non scouts, the neural link between the armor, weapon system and marine.

Even the helmet targeting system, works better for marines with black carapace then for unaugmented sister. We are comparing manual systems to fully integrated ones with support. That is why I said that SoB training is not enough, they would have to litteraly use magic while shoting like orcs to be equal to marines. Not impossible, but it does not make them anywhere near as good shots.

All of which have already been addressed.

Besides, improved eyes don't help when you're relying on the exact same helmet sensors.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BroodSpawn wrote:
Are you guys still jumping through hoops to try and get a rule onto factions other than the one it's designed for?

I'll be honest here. This rule doesn't really seem designed, so much as slapped on. It doesn't even apply to all Astartes in the game.

Looking at deathwatch RPG, it doesn't look like sisters have the same helmet sensors or even similar ones, probably an oversight though, did they add them in dark heresy ?

Mmmpi, would you give it a rest mate. Half this thread has been derailed.

I like the change because it threatens eldar, guardsmen, gaunts, orcs, firewarriors – all the troublemakers.

It buffs centurions, termis and rhinos in particular, all great choices.

It syncs really well with Imperial Fist Siegebreaker dreads and centurions, and Indomitus primaris vets.

All in all, I think it's a really solid call from GW. It doesn't solve the knight problem for SMs, but considering they're clearly balancing the game around soup, it isn't supposed to.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
And I don't see it as slapped on. It's specified to effect different units types according to their battlefield roles and their current power. It addresses termi obsolescence and the fact that SM vehicles receive zero help from faction traits, for example.

EDIT: removed rehash stuff.

 techsoldaten wrote:


Rhinos are surprising good for the points. After they discharged their occupants, my opponent ignored them and that didn't work out well for him. His Mandrakes wiped out a squad of Cultists and one Rhino was able to kill the last 2 models in his squad. While 8 shots is not amazing, it was enough to score some clutch wounds.

The doublestorm bolter Rhino now makes a better gunboat than the ostensibly much more heavily armed Chimera with the news rules

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:
I think that the idea behind the bolter rule is not so much that marines are better than anyone else with bolters but that it is a weapon that is essential to their identity, that they know by heart.

It's even more the case for Sisters.

Sisters have flamers too.

 grouchoben wrote:
Mmmpi, would you give it a rest mate. Half this thread has been derailed.

I disagree that it's been derailed. I'm on topic discussing the new rule. I'm just not discussing the mechanic aspect of it.

Sorry that makes you upset.