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Lets say we have 2 Eldar players.

Phantasm is a Stratagem they can use after setting up, but before the game begins.

They both set up.

A couple related questions here:

1. Player 1 use Phantasm.
(A) Can Player 2 use Phantasm once Player 1 is done?
(B) Can Player 2 declare Phantasm at the same time, and roll off for which goes first?

2. Players 1 and 2 both declare they are going to use Phantasm (effectively independantly) - I'm fairly sure this is done by rolloff

3. If both Player 1 and Player 2 both want to use Phantasm if the other one uses it, What happens? I would think nothing - they're both waiting to react, but what they want to react to never happens. So the game starts w/o Phantasm.

I think the core of the question is:
-Can a Stratagem be used in reaction to another stratagem?
-Do Stratagems need to be declared before you're aware of what stratagems the opponent is going to use (I find this unlikely)

My read is that nothing prevents you from taking additional action before the game begins - as such, if the opponent takes an action (plays Phantasm), you may react after it's resolved (play your own Phantasm to react).

Bharring wrote:
Lets say we have 2 Eldar players.

Phantasm is a Stratagem they can use after setting up, but before the game begins.

They both set up.

A couple related questions here:

1. Player 1 use Phantasm.
(A) Can Player 2 use Phantasm once Player 1 is done?
(B) Can Player 2 declare Phantasm at the same time, and roll off for which goes first?

2. Players 1 and 2 both declare they are going to use Phantasm (effectively independantly) - I'm fairly sure this is done by rolloff

3. If both Player 1 and Player 2 both want to use Phantasm if the other one uses it, What happens? I would think nothing - they're both waiting to react, but what they want to react to never happens. So the game starts w/o Phantasm.

I think the core of the question is:
-Can a Stratagem be used in reaction to another stratagem?
-Do Stratagems need to be declared before you're aware of what stratagems the opponent is going to use (I find this unlikely)

My read is that nothing prevents you from taking additional action before the game begins - as such, if the opponent takes an action (plays Phantasm), you may react after it's resolved (play your own Phantasm to react).

BRB FAQ:

Q: Certain abilities and Stratagems are used ‘before the battle’. When specifically is this?
A: The game begins when players start the Deployment step of a mission – all abilities and Stratagems that are used ‘before the battle’ must be used before then.

Remember that if both players have ‘before the battle’ abilities they wish to use, and the rules themselves do not explicitly say in which order they should be resolved, the players should roll off – the winner decides in what order they are resolved.

Q: If both players have Stratagems or abilities that are used ‘at the beginning of the first battle round but before the first turn begins’ (for example, if both players use the Forward Operatives Stratagem from Codex: Chaos Space Marines), who resolves their abilities first?
A: Unless the rule in question says otherwise, the players roll off and, starting with the winner, alternate resolving such rules one at a time.

Personally I think that if you use a stratagem at a specific time, you get to react if you can also use a stratagem at that same specific time, then resolve via sequencing (or rolling off pre game). If both players "pass" as it were, I'd say it's then too late to go, but if one player uses the stratagem the other has "time" to use it too.

The core of the issue is "who has to declare first and who gets to react?"

As in the thread we originated this discussion.

What if both players only say they want to use the stratagem (Phantasm in this case) only in the event the other does not?

How would that work out?


In all other cases the person who reacts gets the advantage.(meaning if someone gets the advantage to react)


My take?

Both players secretly write down all the pregame stratagems or unit abilities (scout sentinels move for example) after deployment and reveal them at the same time.

Then no one gets the advantage of being able to react to the other.

"who has to declare first and who gets to react?"
Nobody must declare first. If nobody declares first, neither happens.

"What if both players only say they want to use the stratagem (Phantasm in this case) only in the event the other does not?"
By my read, neither player uses Phantasm. Because the other person did not.

"Then no one gets the advantage of being able to react to the other."
If either player can react, then neither has advantage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"Personally I think that if you use a stratagem at a specific time, you get to react if you can also use a stratagem at that same specific time, then resolve via sequencing (or rolling off pre game). If both players "pass" as it were, I'd say it's then too late to go, but if one player uses the stratagem the other has "time" to use it too."
That's my read, too. But I don't believe the rules are conclusive. Hence this thread.

 Ovechkin8 wrote:
The core of the issue is "who has to declare first and who gets to react?"

As in the thread we originated this discussion.

What if both players only say they want to use the stratagem (Phantasm in this case) only in the event the other does not?

How would that work out?


In all other cases the person who reacts gets the advantage.(meaning if someone gets the advantage to react)


My take?

Both players secretly write down all the pregame stratagems or unit abilities (scout sentinels move for example) after deployment and reveal them at the same time.

Then no one gets the advantage of being able to react to the other.

If both declared, it would be a rolloff to see which one would go into effect first,as per the BRB FAQ, so declaring first and responding does not necessarily mean the responder automatically goes second when it come time for the stratagems to be resolved. That would cancel out the perceived advantage of reacting somewhat.

But is it legal to wait until the first one has declared and executed, then declare their own Phantasm?

I'm not seeing any rule that makes that illegal. Although the FAQs listed above could be read as suggesting that you couldn't do that (because it's hard to roll off for who goes first when the other person has already gone).

No, but there is also no real benefit to doing so anyway.

Bharring wrote:
But is it legal to wait until the first one has declared and executed, then declare their own Phantasm?

I'm not seeing any rule that makes that illegal. Although the FAQs listed above could be read as suggesting that you couldn't do that (because it's hard to roll off for who goes first when the other person has already gone).

The FAQ question and answer about both people using a stratagem at the start of the game before the first turn starts has them rolling off for who goes first. There is no provision in that statement for one person declaring and resolving before the first turn, then somebody declaring they're going to use a stratagem before first turn after that person has declared and resolved a stratagem. Both would have to be declared before resolving any.

Which means you must decide on what stratagems you're using before the game starts before any such stratagems are resolved.

So you can reactively choose which stratagems to use based on which stratagems your opponent chooses, but you cannot choose which stratagems to use based on what your opponent *did* with their stratagems, and cannot know what order they will be resolved in when deciding which stratagems to use.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
No, but there is also no real benefit to doing so anyway.

This discussion started because I played a game against BAs in which they used Forlorn Fury and got a really good Advance roll, putting some of my most valuable units in danger of a T1 charge.
So I used Phantasm to redeploy those units.
I was not going to use Phantasm at all, especially since we were using a CA mission that allowed me to deploy my whole army at once and I went second. So my opponent had already deployed everything before I began to deploy.

Normally, this would make Phantasm irrelevant, but in reaction to his Stratagem, it became very relevant. We decided that since both strats happen "at the beginning of the first battle round but before the first turn begins", I was still within the correct timing window to use Phantasm and since I used it in reaction specifically to his Advance roll, he finished resolving his extra move.
Had we back tracked to roll-off, he may have gotten a lower Advance roll, which would have been in my favor and thus unfair.

Doing this saved 3 of my most valuable units getting charged by 15 Death Company, so there was a clear benefit to doing it.
But what I am hearing is that I would not be able to declare Phantasm after Forlorn Fury began to be resolved? I'll have to remember that, as well as try to figure out why my strat loses its ability to be resolved even if it is still "before the first turn begins"

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I don't think you can use it AFTER the enemy stratagem has resolved, imho it's now too late for you to use Phantasm. You'd have to use it once he's used Forlorn Fury but before he's resolved it. But it's not clear and you can definitely argue that the timing is flexible enough for you to use it after it's resolved.

It's odd because the closest thing to a rule preventing you from doing so is the question about how to roll off on which stratagems execute first when you choose to use a stratagem during that time period.

Alternately, a possible read is that "Unless the rule in question says otherwise" is satisfied by a rule that lets you play a stratagem between deployment and the first game turn. But that's quite a stretch.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I don't think you can use it AFTER the enemy stratagem has resolved, imho it's now too late for you to use Phantasm. You'd have to use it once he's used Forlorn Fury but before he's resolved it. But it's not clear and you can definitely argue that the timing is flexible enough for you to use it after it's resolved.

Technically, I didn't "wait" for him to completely resolve the Strat. He rolled a 5" Advance, and seeing how close that would be to my DZ, I consulted my Codex to see the wording of Phantasm (never used if before) and as he was moving his models, we discussed it and determined I could do it and it wouldn't matter who did either Strat first.
The DC would have still moved forward at full speed, and the units I redeployed would have done exact as they did. So we preceded based on that.

My question isn't regarding who resolves what first, that seems clear due to Sequencing.
My question is, can you react to a Strat being used with a Strat you didn't intend to use (and thus wasn't declared "at the beginning of the round"?

In my situation, I was not going to use Phantasm at all. But once Forlorn Fury was declared, I can then declare Phantasm. That would be when the roll off is called for.
We just didn't roll off because it didn't matter

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First I think Stratagems are optional to use.

YOU don't have to use them. If an opponent is shooting at my unit do I use the Lightning Fast Reflexes? Well I need to declare it prior to his dice rolls. So I think that matters.

In the Case of Phantasm. I think you can use it as a reaction strat...but you would need to use it prior to his roll....Just like for Shooting or Hand to Hand rolling. I don't think it is fair to use it after the opponent rolled the dice.

I do think the player should have time to 'consider' if he should or should not react with a strat.

I could see a player using Forlorn and as saying so he throws the dice....That seems bad form and an Eldar player should have the opportunity to declare a reaction.....just like Lightning Fast Reflexes.

You can wait what happens after your opponent resolved his stratagem, unless a special rule says something else, like you have to play your stratagem before the other gets resolved.

p5freak,
That's how I read it, but how can you abide by the FAQs listed above (see BCB's first post in this thread) if one or more stratagems have already been resolved?

The FAQs seem to assume all stratagems that will be used pre-game are declared before any are resolved, and their requirements don't appear to work if any stratagems are declared mid-"phase".

I originally read the FAQs as applying to all Strats declared before any action happens - and as such, an event where both players want to go first (or last), so you roll off like "normal". But I can't seem to square it with the interpretation that you can use pre-game strats in reaction to pre-game strats.

(Technical note - it's not technically a phase, but it is a timeframe.)

Its back to bad wording by GW. The counter argument to a lot of peoples arguments is something like agents of vect which you can legally activate even if tactically bad but not untill after your opponent activites a stratgem which shows you can sequence.

A simple example i had in a tournament recently was useing a strat during deployment having it vected then activateing the strat again because it was not in a phase. I never would have used the strat twice had it not been vected.

Both players have opportunity to activate strategems as many times as they want pregame. So yes nothing prohibits you reacting. Nothing specifies you must sequence all strats at the same time just that you must resolve them pre.

Most strategem choices have little impact on your opponents selections. It sounds to me like some people are trying to be unsporting and withhold information as long as possible. How much benefit are you really gaining.

If one of you wants to do it you do it. if neither of you do it unless the other does you dont do it. if you both want to you role of for priority to do it first. Once resolved you go again till no player wants to do something.

You can get round this type of unsporting player by freely announcing what you want to do then asking your opponent what they want to do - if they say x you may react if they say no you say proceeding to role off and roll if they then say but I .... you say I gave you the opportunity you said no - trying to game the system you have now missed your opportunity.

Bharring wrote:
p5freak,
That's how I read it, but how can you abide by the FAQs listed above (see BCB's first post in this thread) if one or more stratagems have already been resolved?

The FAQs seem to assume all stratagems that will be used pre-game are declared before any are resolved, and their requirements don't appear to work if any stratagems are declared mid-"phase".

I see nothing in those FAQs that says you cant wait until your opponents stratagems have been resolved. Unless a special rule says otherwise.

I think the best way to resolve it is for players to declare a Stratagem, and before proceeding to resolve it, their opponent can declare the use of any Strats in response.
If both players have thus declared, then you roll off.

But as p5freak points out, I don't think there are any ground to "deny" the use of a Strat if one is being resolved when the decision is made to use one in response, aside from maybe, MAYBE the following:
As the timing is "at the beginning of the first battle round but before the first turn begins", there could be an argument made to say that once Player A declares and begins resolving their Strat, it is no longer "at the beginning of the first battle round" even though it is still "before the first turn begins"

So given that possible argument, HIWPI is that all Strats need to be declared before any are resolved. But you can still declare them in response to the declaration of an opponents Strat.

HOWEVER, however, a counter argument to that argument would be the use of the Command re-roll.
What if my opponent declares Forlorn Fury, then I counter with Phantasm, so we roll off to resolve them? When my opponent goes to resolve FF, he rolls a 1 for Advance, and wants to use a Command Reroll.
Obviously he can, but if we are arguing that all pre-game Strats need to be declared before resolving (to allow the FAQ roll-off to occur) than the Command reroll is "out of phase" with that timing and "could" be denied.
Since that is ridiculous, we have to assume that pre-game Strat can indeed be declared, resolved, them countered with other Strats. So long as we are still "before the first turn begins"

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Galef has pointed out a common precedent.

I'd like to believe the CP-reroll is a valid precedent, but it doesn't fulfill the "‘before the battle’ abilities they wish to use" or "used ‘at the beginning of the first battle round but before the first turn begins’" clauses - as such, it's not precedent for a stratagem that *does* have such a clause being usable without rolling off, as per the FAQs.

Bharring wrote:
I'd like to believe the CP-reroll is a valid precedent, but it doesn't fulfill the "‘before the battle’ abilities they wish to use" or "used ‘at the beginning of the first battle round but before the first turn begins’" clauses - as such, it's not precedent for a stratagem that *does* have such a clause being usable without rolling off, as per the FAQs.

While the Command re-roll doesn't have that wording, if it is indeed being used at that time, it should still follow the FAQ and therefore be precedence to mean Strats can be declared "post" resolution of other Strats at the same time.

But I want to take a moment to look at the wording of the FAQ, which is quoted above, but here it is again:
"Q: If both players have Stratagems or abilities that are used ‘at the beginning of the first battle round but before the first turn begins’ (for example, if both players use the Forward Operatives Stratagem from Codex: Chaos Space Marines), who resolves their abilities first?
A: Unless the rule in question says otherwise, the players roll off and, starting with the winner, alternate resolving such rules one at a time."

So this is specifically addressing if both players ARE using the strats in that time. But until Forlorn fury was declared (which I was expecting) and a high Advance roll made, I was NOT going to be using Phantasm. But at things changed, the use of Phantasm was then used.
So HIWPI is the BA player needs to offer a pause once FF is declared so that any counter Strats can also be declared, THEN rolled off for.

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