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As the title says. Keep in mind, I like to think I know quite a bit about 40k's lore, but 'quite a bit' is just like saying "I drink a lot of beer" but never drank a military barracks on a Friday Night.

So, please- any insight would help.

1- Have there ever been 2 or more chapters that have been diminished below effective/renewable strength, and merged together to become one new Chapter? If so, were they required to have the same lineage or could they be of mixed heritage? What if that wasn't even known?

2- What would the circumstances be for a group of Astartes accompanying a Rogue Trader? I know this was kind of a thing at one point, and I've seen it referenced- but what would it take for this to happen?

3- If an odd late-founding successor Chapter were to be in possession of Relic Wargear- I'm sure this would cause quite a stink. What would be a good reason for Astartes to have Javelin Speeders, Sicarans, Mark 4 armor, etc.?

4- If a Chapter is Fleet-Based, how far apart could their Companies be from one another on their ships?

5- Is there a requirement for a 'minimum strength' for a Chapter to deploy, or could they piecemeal small detachments out through various conflicts rather than entire companies?

6- In terms of wargear, if Astartes cosmetically altered, say- their helmets, to give Veterans or Sergeants a distinctive appearance... would this be acceptable?

7- What could cause a Chapter to 'lose' its history or lineage records? I know this was kinda the thing with the Blood Ravens, but I never particularly paid attention to the games or even played through them to the end.

And to follow this up- the last question:

When writing one's own Chapter, what are the absolute worst things one could write into their lore? Hey, trust me- I'm aware of most of the sins (and I've seen quite a few)- but I'm curious to see what you guys think.

And any other suggestions would be great and welcome.

2. Yes its happened since the very first edition of the game and not infrequently in novels upto the current day

3. Varies, they might have their own interest in the area of space, a debt to the RT.

4. Ships can be one different sides of the galaxy - see Black Templars

5. Army of one in the lore - Single squads can be in command of a single frigate with the rest of the crew Chapter Serfs etc

6. Yep

7. Destruction of Homeworld, Wiped for unknown reasons,

Worst - look at the last few years of Space Wolf and Blood Angel fluff and models - avoid that and you are doing better than GW......

For the chapter master question and your chapter in general, try to include realistic flaws and favorable traits. One of the lowest points for marines in general was back in 5th when things got to the height of Mary Sue territory. I always found a chart is a good way to start, have one positive and negative column and try to keep the traits fairly even.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
As the title says. Keep in mind, I like to think I know quite a bit about 40k's lore, but 'quite a bit' is just like saying "I drink a lot of beer" but never drank a military barracks on a Friday Night.

So, please- any insight would help.

1- Have there ever been 2 or more chapters that have been diminished below effective/renewable strength, and merged together to become one new Chapter? If so, were they required to have the same lineage or could they be of mixed heritage? What if that wasn't even known?

2- What would the circumstances be for a group of Astartes accompanying a Rogue Trader? I know this was kind of a thing at one point, and I've seen it referenced- but what would it take for this to happen?

3- If an odd late-founding successor Chapter were to be in possession of Relic Wargear- I'm sure this would cause quite a stink. What would be a good reason for Astartes to have Javelin Speeders, Sicarans, Mark 4 armor, etc.?

4- If a Chapter is Fleet-Based, how far apart could their Companies be from one another on their ships?

5- Is there a requirement for a 'minimum strength' for a Chapter to deploy, or could they piecemeal small detachments out through various conflicts rather than entire companies?

6- In terms of wargear, if Astartes cosmetically altered, say- their helmets, to give Veterans or Sergeants a distinctive appearance... would this be acceptable?

7- What could cause a Chapter to 'lose' its history or lineage records? I know this was kinda the thing with the Blood Ravens, but I never particularly paid attention to the games or even played through them to the end.

And to follow this up- the last question:

When writing one's own Chapter, what are the absolute worst things one could write into their lore? Hey, trust me- I'm aware of most of the sins (and I've seen quite a few)- but I'm curious to see what you guys think.

And any other suggestions would be great and welcome.

I am curious what other people will say too, as I am also in the process of making a custom chapter. Anyway here are my thoughts on your points:

1- This definitely seems possible and could be written in a way that makes sense, having said that I can't think of any current examples of two canon chapters being mashed together in an official capacity. Unofficially speaking, the Tiger Claws chapter hiding in the Astral Claws chapter before the Badab war is one, and the Imperial Fists successors contributing marines to remake the IF during the war of the Beast is another (it's more official in that the High Lords wanted to have some IF around for moral, but not something official in the way the public would know about it). In terms of Geneseed there are chapters with chimeric geneseeds (ie the geneseed itself is mixed genetically speaking), but I can't think of any canon chapters having two different geneseeds. Having said that nothing is stopping a chapter from "borrowing" gene seed, but they'd have to be careful to not get caught. Essentially the most likely scenario I would use for having a mixed chapter would be a Tiger Claws/Astral Claws scenario- where one chapter unofficially adopts survivors for what ever reason, but there could be consequences.

2- Pretty much bonds of debt or tactical reasons that evolve into bonds of debt. Say the Rogue Trader delivers critical supplies to the chapter in a campaign, and the chapter swears support because of it. Or if a supply route is being harassed but refusing to engage the marines directly, marines could be present on a rogue trader ship to give the would be boarders a nasty surprise. This then could evolve into a stable relationship.

3- It depends on the gear you have on mind. More common things like Mk IV armor (ie rare but not that rare) are made in enough amounts even in 40k that, if the chapter was founded near a forge-world that made them, then they would be equipped with it, and the same for resupplying. More rare material (ie things like Sicarans and Achilles) can be explained as either gifts from other chapters (unlikely but possible), or more likely debts owed from the Mechanicus- say your chapter saved a forge-world from a massive xeno invasion, then the local Mechanicus forces would be much more motivated to provide the best of the best that they can offer. Alternatively, if the Chapter was founded with the goal of being in some particularly nasty fight (or favored by the Adminastratum for similiar reasons to the Mechanicum) then they could have been giving top priority for specific gear. Alternatively, there's the Marine Malevolent patented way of stripping what you need from the dead, but that would create friction with other chapters if they knew about it.

4- as far as they are haha. Because of the nature of the warp or various reasons (combat deployment, previous promises etc.) there is no restriction on where the ships of a chapter end up.

5- As far as I know, there is no minimal requirement as a law. I'm sure the Codex Astartes would have specific thoughts on the matter, but it's up to the discretion to the Chapter as far as I know. A squad on a rogue trader ship, for example, would be techincally deployed but only be a squad or two probably, though that isn't the same as combat I suppose. Most likely the Chapter would deploy however much they think they'd need to win, and ideally a bit extra for overkill. If they thought a couple scouts and a few power armor marines would kill the leader, they'd probably send that amount. Some Chapters like the Minotaurs like to deploy pretty much as an entire chapter, so there is for sure pretty much a blank slate for you to decide on how the chapter prefers deploying.

6- yes this is perfectly acceptable and done routinely in cannon chapters.

7- losing their records is simply down to losing their source of their records. Ok yeah I know that's not helpful, but it pretty much comes down to this, so let me give a brief tale as an example of everything going wrong.

For example, say the Emperor's Tears chapter was fleet based, and all their records were stored on their flagship, the Pontificus, and this information is handled by the chapter serfs of the ship and the Chaplain, who handles more delicate subjects. Several centuries go by, and during a battle against the Orks the Pontificus is lost ramming an Ork attack moon, losing all hands on deck and costing the chapter 8 companies by the end of the campaign. Given how marine chapters tend to work, it is most likely all of the veterans, captains, chapter master, and head chaplain would have been lost, so all the direct knowledge and records would have been lost. Over the next few centuries the chapter continues suffering attrition, and the original information becomes more and more legend, with all the original survivors of the campaign refusing to talk about the event because it brings shame and dishonor back- how can the Emperor's Tears survivors talk about their primarch and previous victories when they are so marred by the stain of failure to protect what was sacred? Several more centuries go by and the information is soundly in myth, and the chapter is not sure what their heritage is or their previous campaign is. Gene testing shows the gene seed has mutated enough that it is not clear who their primarch is, so the chapter decides to begin the petition to the Imperial Adminastratum and the Mechanicum for information about the chapter (date, where it was founded, etc.).

However the Mechanicus denies access to the chapter, as the insular and hoarding nature of the mechanicus means good luck figuring out where to even start looking, let alone convince them to give you the info. Meanwhile, when the chapter was founded, an Adminastratum official accidently added a "1" to the 5,783 number string that located docket 9384385827346.12432.12343.235763246.2134, "Information and Logistical Needs of the 718th Chapter Emperor's Tears". Because of this, said docket was placed under a folder titled "effects of Catachan strangling mold on flak armor Mk IIb, Lucius pattern", so after a century and a half of filing and waiting the chapter received that no information exists about the chapter.

That is how a chapter could, hypothetically, lose their records, it only takes one unfortunate accident and then the bureaucracy would do the rest. It is also worth mentioning that information regarding a chapter could be intentionally forged or deleted by higher ups, see the Minotaurs chapter for something like that.


As for the worst things you could do, personally it's make them Marry Sues and/or go overboard with the inspiration. For what I mean by going overboard with inspiration, for me it's comparing the 30k Space Wolves to the 40k Space Wolves as the perfect case study- the 30k is done right (or at least much, much better) in my opinion. The 40k version is too much WOLF for me haha, it seems to take one thematic element out of everything you could do and just cling to it like a life raft. My main recommendation, knowing nothing about what you have in mind, is to take periodic breaks and review your results from a step back, so to speak. Like any large/important work redrafting is perfectly fine and even preferred. Heck find someone you trust and have them read it and provide feed back, the best critical eye is a new set, and don't get upset if the feedback is negative, at best it improves your work and at worst you can discount the advice if it is unreasonable.

I hope this helps!

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

1- Have there ever been 2 or more chapters that have been diminished below effective/renewable strength, and merged together to become one new Chapter? If so, were they required to have the same lineage or could they be of mixed heritage? What if that wasn't even known?

Seems pretty extreme, but not impossible. If two chapters were combined, I think it would only make sense if they were both pushed to the brink of utter destruction--beyond the point of any possible recovery. Like, at least one of their homeworlds destroyed sort of annihilated.

It would make much more sense if they were both very close in lineage, most likely founded from the same chapter, and ideally during the same Founding. Basically, the less crazy you make it, the more reasonable it will seem.

2- What would the circumstances be for a group of Astartes accompanying a Rogue Trader? I know this was kind of a thing at one point, and I've seen it referenced- but what would it take for this to happen?

The most plausible is that the Rogue Trader has intimate knowledge the marines need. For the best example of this, check out the Rogue Trader series by Andy Hoare. If the Marines are on an a crusade against orks in the Whateverus Sector, then a Rogue Trader who has had dealings with the orks and with those who deal with them on a regular basis would be very knowledgeable. It's feasible Marines could also have close relationships with Rogue Traders, particularly if those traders regularly supply the marines with something they need (archaeotech, recovered chapter relics, etc). In such a case, it's not unfeasible the marines might assist the Rogue Trader if they got themselves into a pickle.

3- If an odd late-founding successor Chapter were to be in possession of Relic Wargear- I'm sure this would cause quite a stink. What would be a good reason for Astartes to have Javelin Speeders, Sicarans, Mark 4 armor, etc.?

Not necessarily. Several successor chapters have relic wargear. Some items they may recovered on their own during crusades (perhaps the original owner is a defunct chapter, or the item cannot be returned for some reason, or the crusading chapter takes a 'finders keepers' attitude about it). Some may have been gifted to them by their founding chapter. They might have even won a relic, stolen it, or been gifted it from another chapter in some form of extraordinary circumstance.

4- If a Chapter is Fleet-Based, how far apart could their Companies be from one another on their ships?

Pretty damn. That's the advantage of a fleet based chapter. (The flip side of that coin is that reinforcements can also be pretty far away.)

5- Is there a requirement for a 'minimum strength' for a Chapter to deploy, or could they piecemeal small detachments out through various conflicts rather than entire companies?

The lore is FULL of examples of small contingents of a chapter being attached to larger engagements. Totally reasonable.

6- In terms of wargear, if Astartes cosmetically altered, say- their helmets, to give Veterans or Sergeants a distinctive appearance... would this be acceptable?

Like a paintjob? Not only acceptable, but compliant with Roboute's Rules of Buttkicking. More extensive alterations aren't unreasonable either: even the Ultramarines add crests and laurels and whatnot. Space Wolves and Blood Angels add graven masks and other crazy embellishments, so this isn't too far in the weeds at all.

7- What could cause a Chapter to 'lose' its history or lineage records? I know this was kinda the thing with the Blood Ravens, but I never particularly paid attention to the games or even played through them to the end.

Possible examples include:
Inquisitorial purge (possibly enforced by another chapter). Deliberate withholding (the chapter KNOWS the truth, but they never speak of it to outsiders, and only the upper echelons of command know the real secrets--this lets you give your chapter a mysterious vibe without ever having to spill the beans to readers). Internal purge (no doubt because of something incredibly shameful they're trying to forget, or possibly deliberately cover up). Sabotage. The inherent unreliability of word-of-mouth storytelling. Especially if you have a fleet chapter, it's entirely reasonable their stories may have gotten muddied--after 2000 years, Company A says their history is so-and-so, Company B swears up and down it's such-and-such, and no one knows WHAT the truth is anymore.

When writing one's own Chapter, what are the absolute worst things one could write into their lore? Hey, trust me- I'm aware of most of the sins (and I've seen quite a few)- but I'm curious to see what you guys think.

Write what makes you happy. NOTHING you write is going to please everyone, or even most people. What's more important is doing a chapter that makes you passionate about playing/collecting them. You might outgrow your original model (I look back on the first DIY chapter I ever devised and cringe now...) but that just means you're growing as a writer, and the next one will be even better. When it comes to things that are too crazy, it's going to be pretty hard to top what's actually canon, so go nuts. (Seriously. Canon chapters have included mutant dragon people, mutant spider-beasts, mutant blood drinking angel dudes, half-eldar librarians, heroes who were captured by Chaos for hundreds of years, Warp-touched ghost warriors, renegades on penitent crusades, psychotic mass murderers, chapters in service to the Inquisition, chapters that are reduced to only a few squads, chapters that are 2x to 10x bigger than they're supposed to be, and entire chapters of psykers. Sky's the limit.)

Thanks for all the insight. So far, what I'm working with is leaning towards less "Mary Sue" than I thought it would.

The Chapter in question excels in small-scale operations, usually Kill-Team size. Other forces are deployed as needed to supplement other Imperial Forces. Their Kill-Teams are excellent at pinpointing a target or objective that has a subtle, yet vastly crucial role in the enemy's forces. Therefore, what almost seems like a 'worthless' or 'odd' Kill-Team operation creates a chain reaction that cripples the enemy's capabilities.

This also pisses their allies off, because suddenly that massive battle that could have brought your Chapter/Regiment/Whatever great glory is now shooting fish in a barrel and has been cheapened, and it's all because [Them Sneaky Boys Chapter] had a few Kill Teams out there months ago, doing random ops.

But, the downside of this is that their cohesive nature erodes (perhaps a flaw of their geneseed)- rather than bonding with their battle-brothers in the Chapter, they tend to bond with their Kill-Team. They can be outright indifferent or simply callous towards those outside their teams. And, given the tendency for the Kill-Teams to be isolated for long periods of time, they are more accustomed to making their own decisions and taking guidance from command, rather than directed specific orders. So, in larger forces... they aren't as synchronized as they should be, and tend to go more with their intuition than focusing on the primary objective. They're trying to work this out, with fairly decent results, but otherwise it's still a long road with a lot of old veterans that need more time being immersed in larger forces.

They aren't legendary, they don't have a whole lot of battle honors, hell- they kind of actually suck if there's more than a handful of them doing something- but what they do well, it's really hard to argue that they should stop doing it... and they're more pragmatic than vain though their veterans tend to have artisans fashion their own signature helms.

this sounds like a great chapter. I love it,

1 “ it’s a setting not a story” applies to chapters as well as the whole setting. Even the youngest chapters of oldmarines have been around for 900 years by the current timeline.

2 How do marines fight in any conflict? Rogue traders and marines do the same things, they fight the enemies of the Emperor. Rogue traders often effectively take on assignments for the Imperium. Their houses originate from firebrand cardinals or guard lords general. A rogue trader is often sort of a general contractor for imperial war making.

That’s a good basis for a chapter, the other thing I would suggest is have multiple smaller influences on your chapters character rather than one massive overpowering one.

For example Blood Angels have got Vampires, angels and Renascence italy as influences as well as some smaller ones, if you have multiple influences you can make them all stronger and still have them balance out ok, if you only have one strong influence it’s harder not to go overboard.

You also need some defeats in your chapter history, example the Blood Angels have almost been wiped out multiple times, defeats can be a great opportunity to show the character of your chapter.

Multiple chapters have relationships with non Astartes organisations so a relationship with a rouge trader is fine, maybe he risked his fleet to save your chapter when it was in a tough spot. You could use the Rouge Trader to explain the relic equipment, possibly he found a lost shipment or more believably he had a prior relationship with a few forge Worlds and was doing something dangerous for them, both groups would see the value in having Marines helping the rouge trader, this arrangement could have been going on for centuries giving plenty of time for the forge worlds to divert valuable equipment your way.

They could be linked by a valuable space hulk moving randomly around the sector, the Rouge trader using his extensive contacts to locate the hulk every time it moves as well as selling off valuable items, the mechanicus studies relics and your marines provide protection.

Ultimately whatever you do it’s not going to satisfy everyone, look at all the criticism the wolves have received in this thread, not undeserved, and their probably the most popular chapter out there.

Pandion40 wrote:
That’s a good basis for a chapter, the other thing I would suggest is have multiple smaller influences on your chapters character rather than one massive overpowering one.

Considering the 'pragmatic' nature of the chapter, I'm going with an overall 'tactical and practical' theme. I'm building a lot of these guys with old Deathwatch Veteran kits, and it's mostly a Kill-Team Chapter (I don't feel like building a whole new Army).

Re: relics, it's probably best to assume that they're low-production standard designs rather than irreplaceable artifacts from a lost era. GW just doesn't have any sense of scale or realism and doesn't seem to understand that if a tank is literally irreplaceable then battle losses will quickly drop their numbers to zero and by the era of "modern" 40k none of them would be left. The more reasonable interpretation is that things like Sicarans are really just extremely difficult to manufacture/require STCs held by certain obscure admech cults and therefore treaties and negotiation to get any/etc, such that they're still being produced but if you're the idiot who gets one destroyed for no good reason then you're going to be spending the next decade in a torture cell thinking about your life choices until the chapter can manage to get a replacement. That makes them "relics" in the sense that they're something special, but not so rare that you can't justify risking one in battle if they're needed. True relics of the chapter would be something with historical value ("the power sword used by the founding chapter master") rather than merely generic gear that is in limited supply.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

Pandion40 wrote:
That’s a good basis for a chapter, the other thing I would suggest is have multiple smaller influences on your chapters character rather than one massive overpowering one.

Considering the 'pragmatic' nature of the chapter, I'm going with an overall 'tactical and practical' theme. I'm building a lot of these guys with old Deathwatch Veteran kits, and it's mostly a Kill-Team Chapter (I don't feel like building a whole new Army).

Good idea about the Deathwatch, a strong commitment to the Deathwatch makes a lot of sense for your chapter, they’ll be trained in things very complementary to your chapters modus operandi. Also if your chapter is pumping lots of quality marines into the Deathwatch you’ll be popular with the Ordo Xenos, which could explain some relics.

There is no minimum required size for a Marine deployment.


IIRC the Silver Snakes or whatever they are called sometimes just send single marines to deal with an issue if they feel that is all that will be needed.

1- Have there ever been 2 or more chapters that have been diminished below effective/renewable strength, and merged together to become one new Chapter? If so, were they required to have the same lineage or could they be of mixed heritage? What if that wasn't even known?

I can't recall any lore on such an event. I do remember reading, unless they are from the same world, and even then its questionable, many generals don't like even merging Imperial Guard regiments for fear of culture shock and reduced effectiveness to the point they just have to treat the unit like conscripts and use them as cannon fodder because internal clashes and poor morale renders them incapable of effective action. Besides Gene Seed compatibility even if they are successors of the same primogenitor Chapter, integrating their two warrior cults would be a trial indeed, again even if they were the same successors
Not that it couldn't be done- either they are twinned successors and share enough genetic and traditional similarity. Alternatively, they combine their gene pools and submit it to Mars and Terra for testing, hybridisation and resupply from tithed collections, and compile a new Gene Seed vault. By chance, their rituals could be similar or analogous so that a warrior can follow either tradition and still be accepted enough, or by trial and bonds forged in the fires of war, they got through some perilous campaign as a cohesive force, so when they came out of it found their collection of warriors have new shared traditions or have synergised existing beliefs into a single set of traditions. The Legions during the heresy absorbing black shields and loyalist warriors of a traitor legion is not unheard of. Example, the Ultramarines took in the loyalist elements of an Iron Warriors group. Whether they ever harvested their gene-seed is another question.
A chapter in the Cursed Founding ended up going literally on fire. Honestly, if you can world build it well enough, you can incept your chapter any way you want.

2- What would the circumstances be for a group of Astartes accompanying a Rogue Trader? I know this was kind of a thing at one point, and I've seen it referenced- but what would it take for this to happen?

It seems fairly common. Either the Trader is in the same system and embroiled in the same conflict as the Marines. Seconding a small force to a known Trader for the right to request aid at a later date, or they already have bonds of honour and oaths of support the Trader has decided to call on. The Imperium's war machine runs on the back of oaths sworn and honour pacts. Favours done and promises sworn - a Convent of Soritas begin a campaign, Astra Militarum high generals owe them support. Forge World has pledged support from last time their own forces were aided by the Guard. Space Marines heed that Forge World to war. More Sisters join those Space Marines, some more of the Guard are indebted to those Marines. Someone in that list has a pact with a Knight house. More Mechanicum forces follow those knights. Somewhere along the lines an Inquisitor probably thinks there's something they should look into. Before you know it, a system is playing host to the entire breadth of humanity's armed might.
Sometime somewhere, a Rogue trader might find himself beholden to favour from a Space Marine force or vice versa.

3- If an odd late-founding successor Chapter were to be in possession of Relic Wargear- I'm sure this would cause quite a stink. What would be a good reason for Astartes to have Javelin Speeders, Sicarans, Mark 4 armor, etc.?

I was looking into this myself, I don't think so for a couple of reasons. Looking at foundings, the last 2 are all well known. the 26th founding in late M41 was the last known founding before the Ultima Founding at the start of the 42nd Millennium. The Ultima look mostly to be all Primaris Chapters and I need to read a bit more about that. The 26th was the founding of the Mentors, and seemingly only the mentors. In one of the first White Dwarfs after the release of 40k with Rogue Trader, the Mentors were made out to be a secretive and unique chapter, used by the High Lords and the Inquisition to test out new cutting edge wargear. They had a neural squad-link fire control suite for pinpoint combined bolter fire and a couple other pieces of unique wargear IIRC, originally. Before that, the next latest known date is the 23rd Founding in M38. Even if they were founded recently, any chapter would still have good millennia or more to find some relics.
Personally, my own lore is that my Blood Angels Successor found a moderate cache of relic mothballed heresy era wargear on a reclaimed Forge World in the 39th Millenium... still painted in original World Eaters white and blue. During the heresy the forge world had thrown their lot in with the traitors but the equipment never made it to the intended recipients, and when the loyalists came knocking during the Scouring and retook the sector the underground stores with the war material were passed over, either due to interference from remaining dark magos, classic Mechanicum accounting errors, data lost in the Terran Beurocracy or a thousand other possibilities. Eventually, a series of Waaagh!s followed by a badly timed Tyranid invasion cut the Forge World off from the Imperium, but when it was reclaimed again the cache was found. Their hereditary nemesis, the pristine condition of World Eater vehicles was taken as an omen- it was the Emperor's will the traitors were never meant to have such holy technology, and keeping some units for themselves gifted many examples of relic power and terminator, dreadnought chassis, Deimos pattern vehicles and a super heavy or two to their brethren chapters and their parent chapter the Blood Angels.

4- If a Chapter is Fleet-Based, how far apart could their Companies be from one another on their ships?

Like with the following answer, no limit. Besides being on different crusade fleets, many chapters have various responsibilities like patrolling near the Eye of Terror or honouring various honour pacts with factions fighting at other ends of the Galaxy and sending Marines to the Deathwatch. How a Chapter Master deploys his Marines is his and his decision alone.

5- Is there a requirement for a 'minimum strength' for a Chapter to deploy, or could they piecemeal small detachments out through various conflicts rather than entire companies?

From whole Chapter deployment to single marine envoys and attachments, as above, a Chapter Master has sole discretion on how his forces split up. Besides offering warriors to the Deathwatch, many chapters send sentinels to specific memorials such as the monument to the Astral Knight's sacrifice against the World Engine at their salvaged Battle Barge Tempestus on the desolate world of Safehold. often single squads are deployed to war zones, single marines of a squad spread across Navy fleet assets to counsel ship captains, or on the ground to marshal Militarum defences, or on separate missions as a discrete kill team. Looking at the starter kits using the easy to build Intercessor and Reivers, it looks like small scale deployments in 3 man teams are common even though they are organised as 5 or 10 man squads.
I recall in the 5th edition Chaos Codex, a passage entitled the Constantinus Iconoclasm http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Constantinus wherin Sergeant Constaninus of the 4th Company of the Sons of Guilleman and his squad were left on Nova Terra after a Tyranid Invasion to scour through the cave systems for remaining xenos. 3 years later, after uncovering a genestealer cult and rooting out the infection, was decried by the populace after executiong their rulers and snapped. So while commanders may have need to split their forces up and may do so almost as they wish within the dictates of the Codex Astartes, seperating their battle brothers from the support of their comrades and the Chaplaincy indefinately may not be ideal even if they have supplies and are capable of following mission parameters.

6- In terms of wargear, if Astartes cosmetically altered, say- their helmets, to give Veterans or Sergeants a distinctive appearance... would this be acceptable?

Definitely. Almost universally, the higher the rank, the more ostentatious the wargear. I think its fair to say most captains have total control over their choice of heraldry, most chapters have traditions that mark captains, veterans, sergeants, their ranks and roles; veterans definitely have an allowance to request chapter artificers, techmarines or add ostentation themselves. Various awards, medals and marks of honour also usually have multiple styles of representation, like the golden bullet of marksmen awards, to laurels or the crux terminatus motif of a veteran in power armour. Usually, such ostentations are heavily steeped in traditions unique to the chapter, and while proud of their achievements and battle prowess, most warriors would probably be humble enough not to outdo their commander in terms of showy armour.
Books like Index Astartes, various lore and heraldry sections in older codices and the like, as well as Lexicanum the website would be great places to look. I really recommend trying to get old codices, they usually aren't too much via Amazon or eBay. I have the 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th and 8th marines codexes. I lack the 7th, 2nd and Angels of Death and Ultramarines expansions. Honestly, as far as presentation 6th is a truly beautiful book. 4th is probably the next best, and its the one I started with. The rules will be out of date of course, but they contain a wealth of lore, heraldry and modelling ideas, and it can be interesting to see how the unit entries and wargear evolved over time. I find it helps me get a better idea of the story behind the unit to see how its rules made them work on the tabletop in various ways over the years. The Blood Angels for example, like the Emperor's Children sought beauty outside of war, and to help quiet the Thirst outside of war like to take their mind off it by occu[ying themselves with arts. An outcome of this is most Blood Angels are fairly skilled artificers and embellish their armour with iconography. Some pious chapters inscribe more oaths or histories on their armour plates. Imperial Fists scrimshaw the bones of honoured dead, and sometimes wargear passed down will have the names of previous users. The new Hellbasters often do something similar in most chapters with their plasma incinerators, etching a nano-inscription of the name the last wielder in honour if they died from firing the weapon overcharged.

7- What could cause a Chapter to 'lose' its history or lineage records? I know this was kinda the thing with the Blood Ravens, but I never particularly paid attention to the games or even played through them to the end.

I think others have covered this equally well, a whole host of reasons. Being almost destroyed, losing their repository of knowledge like their Monastery being destroyed or devastated, ships being destroyed or damaged, losing key members of the chapter, being censured for misconduct by the Inquisition or High Lords, Administratum incompetency. There is potential for records to be sealed by order of the Inquisition if, for example, they fought in a battle of questionable circumstance, probably daemons, or their Primarch just so happened to be a traitor, even if the chapter is pure, loyal and originated from a loyal element during the Heresy. Maybe possibly like the Blood Ravens.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:
Re: relics, it's probably best to assume that they're low-production standard designs rather than irreplaceable artifacts from a lost era. GW just doesn't have any sense of scale or realism and doesn't seem to understand that if a tank is literally irreplaceable then battle losses will quickly drop their numbers to zero and by the era of "modern" 40k none of them would be left. The more reasonable interpretation is that things like Sicarans are really just extremely difficult to manufacture/require STCs held by certain obscure admech cults and therefore treaties and negotiation to get any/etc, such that they're still being produced but if you're the idiot who gets one destroyed for no good reason then you're going to be spending the next decade in a torture cell thinking about your life choices until the chapter can manage to get a replacement. That makes them "relics" in the sense that they're something special, but not so rare that you can't justify risking one in battle if they're needed. True relics of the chapter would be something with historical value ("the power sword used by the founding chapter master") rather than merely generic gear that is in limited supply.

That's pretty great, actually. I think I shall borrow that outlook.

Very informative from all contributions.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
2- What would the circumstances be for a group of Astartes accompanying a Rogue Trader? I know this was kind of a thing at one point, and I've seen it referenced- but what would it take for this to happen?

The best example of this that I can think of would be the pact between the Marines Errant and the Rogue Trader household of Ecale. Imperial Armor 9 lists the pact being sealed in 390.M38 when the entirety of the Chapter lent itself to Ecale's crusade into the Ghoul Stars. Since then groups of Marines Errant have always been attached to House Ecale fleets outside the command structure of the Chapter. It's treated as a great honor as well and Marines selected for this duty bear the Ecale sigil on their heraldry when they return to the fold.

Number 1: I read a book once where it's strongly hinted towards a chapter, while not strictly merging with another chapter, accepts gene seed from a different one to speed up the recruiting process. The chapter master loses a lot of respect for it and it's never stated outright. It's made under much secrecy and only with the involvement of both the high lords and the inquisition. I think it was one in the victories of the space marines books. I could look it up if asked. In the book it's also hint that there's gene seed stores on Terra for emergency usage when chapters don't get decimated but come to a critical low number.
I can't really think of an example of chapters merging. If a chapter gets damaged enough it's more common that they either rebuild or go on a last crusade to die with glory. It's probably happened in the fluff at some point.

Number 2: It's fairly common for a single marine to be assigned to an Inquisitor, to guard a particular holy site or to accompany a rouge trader. As an example there's a shrine on a desert world guarded by a single Black templar dreadnought in the calixis sector (I can look up the exact world and such if asked). This can be for honor reasons, for political pull, made as a sign of good will or be part of a contract that's for some reason necessary to the chapter. I could see space marines having an interest in uncharted space and therefore send an representative to a rouge trader for instance.

Number 5: I can add that in "Nightbringer" by Graham McNeil a full company (without any support from the armoury, 1st, 10th or the support companies) is deployed in response to a civil war rebellion and some eldar pirates. It's hinted they're deployed because the librarians sees the need for it. In any case they're by the book ultramarines so it's the closest to a standard deployment doctrine as I can get. Note that the company being deployed is the 4th with a recently promoted and therefore inexperienced commander. The chapter master probably takes the micromanagement into account and attempt to send the newer commanders on easier assignments to heighten the effectiveness of a company. Probably a full company if requested by a sector governor is a standard deployment, but with all other things in the Imperium it varies immensly.

Number 6: The one thing I have to add to this point is that it differs from chapter to chapter heavily how things are proclaimed. I heard of some chapter where the size and shape of your combat knife indicated status and veterancy. Another one where tattooes fulfilled the same purpose, as well as some form of tribal heritage and belongings. There's an intresting meeting between the Ultramarines and the Mortifactors where the Ultramarines mistakes the Mortifactors veterancy symbols for symbols of grief and loss. They assume the chapter has had some great loss recently, when in truth it's just the symbols/colours they use to proclaim veterancy (from the book warriors of ultramar by Graham McNeil).
Also marines have been known to customise their wargear, add stuff to it or be recognised to weild a particular blade/gun/banner. It's commonly encouraged by the chapter, at least according to the deathwatch rpg by fantasy flight games.

Number 7: Secretly beeing a descendant from one of the traitor legions... As hinted to with the blood ravens (thousand sons) and the mantis warriors (Night lords). Also, if you look at the dark angels they tell one story to most of the chapter and then have an inner circle with the true information on the chapters history.

Hope that's of some help. I was thinking I'd post a link to an earlier homebrew thread. Can be nice for some inspiration, I think there's a few space marine chapters in there. https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/735019.page

Oh, as to the worst thing you can do... Well I'd say making your dudes completely flawless. It's always more fun when there's something, anything that's not perfect. Like a great defeat that haunts the chapter, a flaw in their gene seed or an extremist belief. That sort of thing.

Number 1: If merging two chapters (directly) doesn't work out, you could be a founding based on geneseed from two+ different chapters. It does happen. You could also be founded with members who were part of other chapters previously - so it's possible two chapters were decommissioned (too decimated to remain in service, or the task they were created for isn't relevant anymore, or whatever), and your chapter started with members from them.

Number 2: A drop of the hat. Rogue Trader going somewhere dangerous, and can convince a Chapter that it's in the Imperium's interest ["Thar be Traitors" | "Locals need these supplies" | "We need to know what's there" | "I can help you scout this sector" | ...].

Number 3: Gift from a "parent" founding chapter. Relic returned to the Imperium by their activities. Gift from a non-chapter for a specific reason. There are lots of reasons they could have a Relic, fluffwise. Also, note that 'Relics' gamewise needn't be 'Relics' fluffwise, and vice-versa; my 7th company 1st squad's Seargent carries a relic Power Fist "Vox Arorae" - which, by crunch, is just a Power Fist.

Number 4: That depends on the chapter. They could all be fairly close, and operate jointly often. They could all be fairly close and operate independantly. They may all be far-flung and only rarely be in the same system as eachother. It's up to your chapter.

Number 5: Certainly possible, but when you have 100 fighting men, piecemealing it out isn't the best idea. It really depends on the general dogma of the *chapter*, though. Two engagements seems reasonable, but 5-10 engagements, not so much.

Number 6: More accepted than not altering their helmets. Your chapter can do anything. Most chapters, as far as I know, mark the helmets of their Sarges and Vets.

Number 7: Anything. Burocracy. Inquisitorial orders (unlikely). Chapter secrecy. Chapter culture ("We do not look to the past! We look to the future! If it has no strategic value, we do not record it!"). Random fire at the archive. Up to you. It wouldn't cause problems.

Mortifactors where the Ultramarines mistakes the Mortifactors veterancy symbols for symbols of grief and loss.

Ah, the chapter who's standard greeting is literally taking a tape measure to you to size up your coffin. Every marine needs one, eventually.

I was just leaving through my Dark Angels codex, and I noticed several things. Their veterancy symbol is their ceremonial robes. Since they deploy the 1st company entirely in Terminator Armour, company veterans and veteran sergeants are the only others in the chapter that deploy in power armour and are humble in regards to their status.

Additionally, they have a habit of ensuring that the Adeptus Terra occasionally lose some records, specifically on where and what they and their successor's recruitment worlds are, for example.

As for Rogue Trader's, My own lore for why there is a house tied to the chapter planet and local system factions, is that much of the family dynasty was destroyed in the invasion of the hive world nearby, so when the incumbent Trader got himself murdered on a Space Hulk, leadership actually defaulted to a Marine aspirant recruited from said hive's gangers, an offshoot line of the Noble Family. Having forsworn his titles on his acceptance as a neophyte, there's a legal clash in the wording of the Warrant of Trade, so that the Chapter Master couldn't technically accept such an oath- to do so would go directly against a High Lord, as laid down as word the Emperor's Divine Will. However, to reign command over a rogue Trader and command by proxy a Warrant would also be tantamount to empire-building, so a local Ordo Hereticus cell has to accept his word that they will not abuse the Warrant, and the Noble Family though technically headed by a now veteran Space Marine is run and ruled by proxy, but nonetheless offer deference and maintain a pact of aid to each other.

I don't intend such a corner of the Imperium that house the factions I'm collecting to come off as too "Ultramar", but it does explain away Sisters and Ministorum heavy presence with the Inquisitorial headquarters tasked with observing this situation, as well as creating a noble family of Traders with ties to the Chapter.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

2- What would the circumstances be for a group of Astartes accompanying a Rogue Trader? I know this was kind of a thing at one point, and I've seen it referenced- but what would it take for this to happen?

I think any reason would be receivable (bloodline, debt, money, order from Lords of Terra…) As the title imply, a Chapter Master makes the rules and could have authorized its captains to dispatch forces with a RT.
As for my chapter, it was declared lost and so, it's difficult for them to restock from Forge Worlds. RT and explorers became the main source of wargear supply.

3- If an odd late-founding successor Chapter were to be in possession of Relic Wargear- I'm sure this would cause quite a stink. What would be a good reason for Astartes to have Javelin Speeders, Sicarans, Mark 4 armor, etc.?

For me, a good reason would that they (re)discovered it first (in space hulk, on a forgotten world, from the smoking clutches of a foe…)
Now, if the relic were to bore a symbol of another imperial force, you decide if your chapter would actively return it, just use it until they cross path with said forces, or keep it…

4- If a Chapter is Fleet-Based, how far apart could their Companies be from one another on their ships?

Depends on how you see them. Could be spread across the galaxy like Black Templars, or you imagine more like full chapter/companies deployments for bigger operations…

5- Is there a requirement for a 'minimum strength' for a Chapter to deploy, or could they piecemeal small detachments out through various conflicts rather than entire companies?

I'd say no requirement, you're the master, you evaluate what force is needed where for what.

6- In terms of wargear, if Astartes cosmetically altered, say- their helmets, to give Veterans or Sergeants a distinctive appearance... would this be acceptable?

It would be, to the least, weird if they didn't

7- What could cause a Chapter to 'lose' its history or lineage records? I know this was kinda the thing with the Blood Ravens, but I never particularly paid attention to the games or even played through them to the end.

A battle in the Librarium, a Master that has something to hide, a warp storm… anything you can think of will do, really.

When writing one's own Chapter, what are the absolute worst things one could write into their lore?

The profusion of details. I went that way myself. It makes writing more difficult and reading more painful
A kick-ass chapter with no defeat or throwback, no flaws, in shiny armor is a pain too

Thanks to everyone for their help.

I'm looking forward to trying to make this idea come to life soon, perhaps at least on a Kill-Team level. I think the new Vanguard marines are ideal for what I'm trying to create.

I for one would be a bit interested in reading whatever you make out of this. if you make a post in the dakkadakka fictions forum then please make a link in this thread. Would make a fun read anyway.

 Nerak wrote:
I for one would be a bit interested in reading whatever you make out of this. if you make a post in the dakkadakka fictions forum then please make a link in this thread. Would make a fun read anyway.

It could very well happen.

I might even paint a couple of models up.

As far as merging and rebuilding, it’s happened or been close to happening for at least two and maybe three first founding chapters. The blood angels had to call their successors to Baal to essentially ask for initiates and the flesh tearers chapter master suggests that other chapters have been reconstitutes that way before. The Imperial Fists face a similar crisis in the Beast Arises series. The Ultranarines received a lot of support from successor chapters after the first Tyrranic war too I think. Presumably though the greater the renounced of one chapter, the more likely that it will be rebuilt.

Since every piece of heresy equipement is a relic and almost anything from the past 9000 years would qualify, I think it’s very likely that first and second founding a gift new chapters with some pieces of war gear. It would tie them to their genetic heritage and give food will between the organizations. Alternatively there are a lot of space hulks and old battlefields to loot Blood Ravens style. Though that counts as a gift to the chapter.

A massive cataclysm or the sheer size of the administration can lead to tons of records being lost. No one realized that the soul drinkers a second founding chapter, weren’t imperial fist successors for several centuries. Alternatively the chapter leadership may decide to purge such records themselves for various reasons. Most notably the blood ravens may have done it to hide that they’re 1000 son decendants. The High Lords might also purposefully keep the founder secret so that the chapter does not tie in with any larger group.

Best advice I can give for your background is to let your chapter fail. Let the chapter’s actions have consequences and let them make bad choices. Give them flaws or vices that actually hinder them. It’s more interesting to watch your heroes succeed when you know it’s possible to fail and real adversity is more compelling than lining up latest fodder to demonstrate your amazing power level. Not saying you should do this all the time of course. Your chapter should have plenty of victorious and heroic moments. Just sprinkle the good and the bad.

Another tip is don’t constantly raise the stakes. Not every conflict is going to have galaxy spanning consequences. Demonic incursions or massive Waaghs are great points, but most of their actions should be “routine” for the 41st millennia. Assisting in putting down a rebellion or guarding shipping against eldar raiders can be important and compelling without overshadowing their greater struggles.

Yeah the merging thing can really only reasonably work if they were from the same founding legion to begin with, as they would share the geneseed. I really can't see it happening otherwise.

The books doesn’t say the blood angels’ successors donated space marines or scouts, as far as I can tell they donated regular humans who were going to make good space marines. All the human populations of Baal would have been devastated and couldn’t be used as a big enough recruiting base.

Since second edition, it’s said that different successors of the same legion aren’t considered to have the same genes seed at all, because they don’t want variation in the gene seed to contaminate other chapters’.

So, this is where I am so far with all of this:

1- I've decided to just go with them being an Ultima Founding chapter, since I don't feel like buying up older Marines and Vehicles, aside from Scouts- which I have a few boxes of that I've never opened. Might as well use them, or wait until Artel W releases those awesome scouts.

2- I'm going to make these guys for Kill-Team, and then perhaps a 10th Company? 8th Company? Whatever makes sense for Reivers, Scouts, Tempest Speeders, and the Primaris Vanguard, however they into the Company Structure, if I can be bothered to follow Codex Astartes Structural Doctrine the same way. I don't think it even matters nowadays.

3- As far as the Relics (AKA 'Forge World stuff') is concerned, I'll very likely bring them into my army as part of the narrative- with a game focused around retrieving or finding the Relic and making a daring escape with it supporting my guys. The whole idea of being able to give things their own story from a narrative game seems like a lot of fun.

4- I'm probably gonna use them with some knights at some point, if I can ever figure out how I want to paint things.

5- I'm not at all concerned about them being 'competitive' on the tabletop, just want to make something fun and narrative.

WIP Fluff below

The Chapter (name, colors, and heraldry are WIP) excels in small-scale engagements utilizing Kill-Teams, Scouts, and Reivers (and probably those new Primaris guys from the Shadowspear box (fluff and rules for them get a vote, of course). These "Covert Teams" (Likely will be renamed to something more interesting) are they primary deployment structure of The Chapter, and are capable of conducting operations without support while isolated in hostile areas controlled by enemy forces.

Much of The Chapter's other assets (tanks and other less-covert units and wargear) are distributed to support other forces across wider conflicts. However, land speeders, Stormtalons, and other fast-attack vehicles will often be used to support their forward guerilla elements or carry out lightning raids on structures, vehicles, and other targets that the Covert Teams cannot easily destroy or disable.

They are unnaturally gifted at pinpointing and exploiting weaknesses in an enemy force. Long before any large-scale battles, The Chapter's forward-deployed "Covert Teams" will disrupt and cripple the enemy- ensuring that the Imperium's forces are at a distinct advantage when the larger scale conflicts begin. The Chapter's scouts are trained to exercise initiative, calculate their options, and work in an absence of direct command- resulting in "Covert Teams" that are resourceful and independent when deployed.

The Chapter's doctrine (or perhaps some minor flaw in their geneseed) makes it difficult for them to deploy as a large, organized force in a standard Battle Company or larger Patrol Detachment. The Astartes of The Chapter tend to be less cohesive and restrained when working in larger numbers, resulting in losses that shamed The Chapter. Their bond between Battle-Brothers outside of their "Covert Teams" can be weak at best, often indifferent and uneasy. The Chapter has attempted to correct this by redistributing and mixing Astartes within different squads as frequently as possible, with some success in recent years.

Additionally, their tendency to deploy "Covert Teams" in secrecy ahead of other allied forces has been viewed as a breach of protocol with other Chapters, sometimes taken as an insult. The Chapter has recently attempted to correct this and repair their relationship with their allies, and has been more reliable with communicating the disposition and intent of their "Covert Teams" as well as sharing intelligence with their allies. In addition, they have taken great strides to defer to more senior Chapters and eagerly learn from their experience and wisdom- and are even willing to incorporate these lessons into their own flexible doctrine with respect. However, mending their reputation is still very much a long process and other Chapters often do not understand their target acquisition methods- some even seeing their "Covert Teams" as unbecoming of a Proud Astartes (Though rarely denying their efficiency).

While never known to place their pride over pragmatism, losses in the past have humbled them pressed them to request aid from allies- namely, when The Chapter lost their Vanguard Cruiser, the Awesome Spaceship (another WIP) and stranded a nine separate "Covert Teams" during the catastrophic events of 'A Really Bad Situation' (WIP) shortly after their founding. Their salvation came at the hands of the Rogue Trader Captain McSpacepants (WIP) aboard the Pretentious Awesomeship (Also WIP), and The Chapter took an oath to lend a veteran "Covert Team" to the Captain McSpacepants at his/her request as long as The Chapter had at least a single "Covert Team", even if it were the very last. Additionally, The Chapter has forged a bond of honor with the Freeblade Warband Big Stompy Bro-bots (WIP) and their coordinated actions have proven to be an undeniably effective force, even if odd.