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So having just read the lore on the warhammer community it makes them sound completely unattached to the nids now.
Is this new or are we just not seeing the full fluff?

In the new lore, there is multiple references to the 'day of ascension,' which is when the Tyranids come to annihilate the planet. Also, the new animated trailer clearly shows the Genestealers worshipping the Tyranids as gods. I think what we're seeing now is just a more in-depth look at how cults put their plans into motion.

Look at top-right - "Tyranid approach triggers uprising":

The newer fluff has most cults not realizing that the Gods arrival = we all get eaten. Previous fluff had them walking willingly into the digestive pools, now most of he cultist will try to fight the nids as the end approaches.

I do think it would be interesting to have a story where an angry GS manages to actually defeat a Tyranid invasion force, then sets up their own mini-empire with their own unique bio-forms.

Well Genestealers are a bit iffy in the hiarchy. While they do fall under the will of the hive mind, it is unclear how much free will they have. During an invasion they try to sneak onboard most ships and transports leaving the planetgs and systems in order to spread. It is unclear if this is in order to escape or to infiltrate. For the hive mind I do not think it matters much.

I am also unsure how much freedom the patriarch has in this.

One thing is for sure though. If you are a Genestealer with free will, becomming a patriarch is a pretty sweet gig for a coupel of years. You get to do the whole Bram Stalkers Dracula thing, you keep your own ouers, you are good at your jobb, nobody is bossing you around and servants bring you food.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
The newer fluff has most cults not realizing that the Gods arrival = we all get eaten. Previous fluff had them walking willingly into the digestive pools, now most of he cultist will try to fight the nids as the end approaches.

Personally I think the first is better... why would tyranid infiltration orgamisms fight the hive themselves? Seems counter-intuitive.

 Niiai wrote:
Well Genestealers are a bit iffy in the hiarchy. While they do fall under the will of the hive mind, it is unclear how much free will they have. During an invasion they try to sneak onboard most ships and transports leaving the planetgs and systems in order to spread. It is unclear if this is in order to escape or to infiltrate. For the hive mind I do not think it matters much.

I am also unsure how much freedom the patriarch has in this.

One thing is for sure though. If you are a Genestealer with free will, becomming a patriarch is a pretty sweet gig for a coupel of years. You get to do the whole Bram Stalkers Dracula thing, you keep your own ouers, you are good at your jobb, nobody is bossing you around and servants bring you food.

Cult of the spiral dawn goes into this, brood brothers and sisters along with the third and fourth generation have more "freedom" of thought. They can disagree with the patriarch and offer another plan, which if good the patriarch will go along with. But obviously being in a fanatical cult and due to the their DNA being rewritten along with the brood mind they won't betray the interests of the cult. So if some do escape the planet they will just set up the cult again.

I recommend the cult of the spiral dawn book if people want more information on the GSC.

 Niiai wrote:
Well Genestealers are a bit iffy in the hiarchy. While they do fall under the will of the hive mind, it is unclear how much free will they have. During an invasion they try to sneak onboard most ships and transports leaving the planetgs and systems in order to spread. It is unclear if this is in order to escape or to infiltrate. For the hive mind I do not think it matters much.

I am also unsure how much freedom the patriarch has in this.

One thing is for sure though. If you are a Genestealer with free will, becomming a patriarch is a pretty sweet gig for a coupel of years. You get to do the whole Bram Stalkers Dracula thing, you keep your own ouers, you are good at your jobb, nobody is bossing you around and servants bring you food.

When a Tyranid invasion occurs, the Patriarch is stripped of its free will and becomes just another Tyranid. Any cultist trying to get protection by seeking its help just get eaten instead.

Regading cult fighting nids at end of invasion. It is not a nett loss fot the tyranid. The dead nids would just be re consumed. Biomass is biomass. It is unsure if there is some loss over all, but presumably not a lot.

As for the gsc fighting. I think it depends weather they have genetic material from the Stealers Kiss in them or not. Perhaps even if they are hypnotysed or compelled. Human sympathisers who just joined the rebellion would have free will and probably protest once the feeding started. They are truly doomed.

I like how they spread the DNA. Is it not one of the cults that spreads it through medical ingenuiety. In the vigilus they are every where. Planet was doing very well as far as infestation was conserned. During the uprising they contaminated all the water supplies. SW and Ultramarines try to root them out.

Entropy states that there would be loss. The loss is likely negligible to the hive mind, but it's there.

 Melissia wrote:
Entropy states that there would be loss. The loss is likely negligible to the hive mind, but it's there.

Entropy states that, but I am a bit unsure just what the nids are going for.

Is it genetic chains like they use in CRISPR? Perhaps for making new structures.

Is it building blocks like protein etc? Could be. We know they must have a surpluss of some things. The rock and metal materials in the planets are ignored. Athmosphere is not. So we can asume they are fine on minerals.

It clearly is not just energy, othervice they would shurly have build some form of organic dysons sphere. Perhaps they lack the abilaty, or perhaps they do not need energy that much. Also, I do not know much of the process of converting energy to matter, but with a dysons sphere, perhaps even a mobile one, you should be getting a net pluss at some point.

I am not sure what the rate of entropy is, or just what the nids means when they talk about biomass. (Talk and talk, we mostly get it from the imperium perspective, or some 3rd party storyteller.)

They also apparently absorb a planet's heat apparently.

Heat sounds like they do need energy. Perhaps the powers of dysonssphere is beyond them.

Is not a lot of the planets heat from the molten core squirming around and doing things? Do they have some way to utelice all of that energy over a short amount of time?

As far as I'm aware there's been no change in the attitude of the GS cults since 2nd ed. They're definitely still tyranid related, although most GS cults I've seen (and mine) usually try and make up a story to seperate/protect them from the (boring) swarm of faceless aliens coming to eat them.

The lore hasn't really changed save that as of late there's a been a bit more focus on the grimdark angle that many of the cult are not true genestealers under the sway of the hive mind; but are instead either regular people caught up in the religion or they are minor warped/mutated people who are not yet mutated enough to be true genestealers under the will of the Swarm.

As a result there's more focus on the cultists who are still human coming to terms with the arrival of their gods. Causing a rift in the Cult whereby the most loyal and also the mentally controlled join with the Tyranids; whilst others might join at first but could later rebel as they realise what's actually coming. Cults will still be out there where many willingly embrace the Swarm's arrival and march forth proud into open jaws and pools.

However those who retain tehir human sanity might well balk when the end comes; when the Imperium is driven out and the Tyranids stand before them wanting to consume them. Of course the Tyranids are not caring, at that stage, about maintaining the pretence so they will just gorge and feed on the Cultists.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
As far as I'm aware there's been no change in the attitude of the GS cults since 2nd ed. They're definitely still tyranid related, although most GS cults I've seen (and mine) usually try and make up a story to seperate/protect them from the (boring) swarm of faceless aliens coming to eat them.

I have personally come to realise trying to cut that part out sort of ruins the point of the faction. That's just my opinion.

As to why Tyrannids don't stop anywhere long, I put it down to them being giant space locusts. If there isn't a large enough food supply to gorge on then the next wave of giant space locusts behind them will eat them.

Chasing the food in front of them (other Tyrannids), running away from the thing behind them that thinks they are food (also other Tyrannids).

Barring the one Hive Fleet that is building something on a planet, Tyranids don't build infrastructure on the ground. They are essentially locusts and nomadic. They come, feed and leave. Once a world is fed upon there's no reason for them to remain as there's nothing left on the world nor the system its in.

I dont think its a seperation from the Nids, its more that GW are filling out the background to the GSC and their culture, way of war and society.
In the past this wasnt fleshed out as much and more emphasis was put on the "end game" of contact with the Nid fleet -> planetary invasion.
Ultimately in most cases a Nid fleet will arrive and attack/consume the planet but theres a lot of interesting and fun stuff that happens before that solely focused on the GSC.

Niiai wrote:

Spoiler:

 Melissia wrote:
Entropy states that there would be loss. The loss is likely negligible to the hive mind, but it's there.

Entropy states that, but I am a bit unsure just what the nids are going for.

Is it genetic chains like they use in CRISPR? Perhaps for making new structures.

Is it building blocks like protein etc? Could be. We know they must have a surpluss of some things. The rock and metal materials in the planets are ignored. Athmosphere is not. So we can asume they are fine on minerals.

It clearly is not just energy, othervice they would shurly have build some form of organic dysons sphere. Perhaps they lack the abilaty, or perhaps they do not need energy that much. Also, I do not know much of the process of converting energy to matter, but with a dysons sphere, perhaps even a mobile one, you should be getting a net pluss at some point.

I am not sure what the rate of entropy is, or just what the nids means when they talk about biomass. (Talk and talk, we mostly get it from the imperium perspective, or some 3rd party storyteller.)

FYI, entropy is just a measurement of the amount of disorder in a system; it doesn't state anything. What you guys are thinking of is the second law of thermodynamics.

I think a big reason why Genestealer Cultists sometimes fight back against a Tyranid invasion is simply to make the tabletop narrative flow a little better. Without it, there would be no narrative reason to have GSC vs. Tyranids. Except maybe the wrong fleet showed up to consume the planet, and even that seems pretty weak of a reason.

I like to have a quick narrative reason as to why each side is fighting each other before a game to give it some context. If all GSC gave themselves willing to Tyranids, it becomes practically impossible to conjure a reason for the battle. The tried and true training exercise for blue-on-blue doesn't even work well for this.

 Niiai wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Entropy states that there would be loss. The loss is likely negligible to the hive mind, but it's there.

Entropy states that, but I am a bit unsure just what the nids are going for.

Is it genetic chains like they use in CRISPR? Perhaps for making new structures.

Is it building blocks like protein etc? Could be. We know they must have a surpluss of some things. The rock and metal materials in the planets are ignored. Athmosphere is not. So we can asume they are fine on minerals.

It clearly is not just energy, othervice they would shurly have build some form of organic dysons sphere. Perhaps they lack the abilaty, or perhaps they do not need energy that much. Also, I do not know much of the process of converting energy to matter, but with a dysons sphere, perhaps even a mobile one, you should be getting a net pluss at some point.

I am not sure what the rate of entropy is, or just what the nids means when they talk about biomass. (Talk and talk, we mostly get it from the imperium perspective, or some 3rd party storyteller.)

Minerals are not ignored, although it depends on the needs of the Hive Fleet and what the prey offers. Devastation of Baal explains that the Tyranids are spoiled by Mankind, whose worlds not only provide plenty of biomass but also refined minerals ready for consumption, so they ignore natural minerals. But if the Hive Fleet is starving it will devour mineral resources.

Tyran wrote:

 Niiai wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Entropy states that there would be loss. The loss is likely negligible to the hive mind, but it's there.

Entropy states that, but I am a bit unsure just what the nids are going for.

Is it genetic chains like they use in CRISPR? Perhaps for making new structures.

Is it building blocks like protein etc? Could be. We know they must have a surpluss of some things. The rock and metal materials in the planets are ignored. Athmosphere is not. So we can asume they are fine on minerals.

It clearly is not just energy, othervice they would shurly have build some form of organic dysons sphere. Perhaps they lack the abilaty, or perhaps they do not need energy that much. Also, I do not know much of the process of converting energy to matter, but with a dysons sphere, perhaps even a mobile one, you should be getting a net pluss at some point.

I am not sure what the rate of entropy is, or just what the nids means when they talk about biomass. (Talk and talk, we mostly get it from the imperium perspective, or some 3rd party storyteller.)

Minerals are not ignored, although it depends on the needs of the Hive Fleet and what the prey offers. Devastation of Baal explains that the Tyranids are spoiled by Mankind, whose worlds not only provide plenty of biomass but also refined minerals ready for consumption, so they ignore natural minerals. But if the Hive Fleet is starving it will devour mineral resources.

Add to that that a Hive Fleet seems to be able to get what it needs to churn out huge invasion warms from a really speedy but not complete digestion. Leviathan has been observed devouring planets in less than a week, but it isn’t going as far as significantly reducing the mass of the planet when it does so. I would speculate that the larger proportion of devoured planetary mass goes to spawning and sustaining the actual Hive ships. Leviathan, particularly the hyper aggressive Cryptoid tendril that ended up at Baal, was composed of millions of ships Andy didn’t need more, it just needed to spam invasion organisms. Smaller Fleets take a lot longer, possibly because they want to get everything they possibly can from their conquered world and grow as many Hive ships as possible. It’s a handy theory that fits the differing timescales for consumption.

Patriarch Phyrx wrote:

Tyran wrote:

 Niiai wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Entropy states that there would be loss. The loss is likely negligible to the hive mind, but it's there.

Entropy states that, but I am a bit unsure just what the nids are going for.

Is it genetic chains like they use in CRISPR? Perhaps for making new structures.

Is it building blocks like protein etc? Could be. We know they must have a surpluss of some things. The rock and metal materials in the planets are ignored. Athmosphere is not. So we can asume they are fine on minerals.

It clearly is not just energy, othervice they would shurly have build some form of organic dysons sphere. Perhaps they lack the abilaty, or perhaps they do not need energy that much. Also, I do not know much of the process of converting energy to matter, but with a dysons sphere, perhaps even a mobile one, you should be getting a net pluss at some point.

I am not sure what the rate of entropy is, or just what the nids means when they talk about biomass. (Talk and talk, we mostly get it from the imperium perspective, or some 3rd party storyteller.)

Minerals are not ignored, although it depends on the needs of the Hive Fleet and what the prey offers. Devastation of Baal explains that the Tyranids are spoiled by Mankind, whose worlds not only provide plenty of biomass but also refined minerals ready for consumption, so they ignore natural minerals. But if the Hive Fleet is starving it will devour mineral resources.

Add to that that a Hive Fleet seems to be able to get what it needs to churn out huge invasion warms from a really speedy but not complete digestion. Leviathan has been observed devouring planets in less than a week, but it isn’t going as far as significantly reducing the mass of the planet when it does so. I would speculate that the larger proportion of devoured planetary mass goes to spawning and sustaining the actual Hive ships. Leviathan, particularly the hyper aggressive Cryptoid tendril that ended up at Baal, was composed of millions of ships Andy didn’t need more, it just needed to spam invasion organisms. Smaller Fleets take a lot longer, possibly because they want to get everything they possibly can from their conquered world and grow as many Hive ships as possible. It’s a handy theory that fits the differing timescales for consumption.

And if you want to expand the theory even more, Hive Fleets are not independent, but each one a facet of the Hive Mind, each one a different tool, a different stage in a galactic scale predatory and digestive process. The purpose of Leviathan is to be a shock Hive Fleet, a large vanguard force to prepare the galaxy for the arrival of subsequent fleets. It is currently shielding the approach of both Hydra and Kronos, even leaving predigested worlds behind for consumption.

My theory is that eventually, fleets designed for a more complete digestion will enter the galaxy to pick clean the leftovers of the vanguard fleets.

Hive Fleets also fight each other.

I like the notion that something happens like what the Cthulhu-cultist in H.P. Lovecraft's Call of Cthulhu says:

Old Castro wrote:That cult would never die till the stars came right again, and the secret priests would take great Cthulhu from His tomb to revive His subjects and resume His rule of earth. The time would be easy to know, for then mankind would have become as the Great Old Ones; free and wild and beyond good and evil, with laws and morals thrown aside and all men shouting and killing and revelling in joy.

 Nurglitch wrote:
Hive Fleets also fight each other.

In very few situations, we have more examples of Hive Fleets working together, and more lore that implies an unifying Hive Mind.

Tyran wrote:

 Nurglitch wrote:
Hive Fleets also fight each other.

In very few situations, we have more examples of Hive Fleets working together, and more lore that implies an unifying Hive Mind.

I don't think that they fight out of malice or competition, but as a way to weed out inferior bioforms and allow the remaining material to be absorbed by more effective fleets. If anything, the Hive Mind probably encourages this as a form of rapid evolution.