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I am not worried about knights though. I am worried about some of the other lists out there that will mulch our infantry. I played this recently while I was just testing units, ITC format, and it butchered through my guys.
Deathwatch Battalion
Watch Master
Librarian
4 Squads of Vets with with max Storm shields and storm bolter
-Blackshield
-Terminator
-Bike
-Vanguard vet
One squad has a heavy bolter for hellfire shells stratagem.
Those squads can piss shots with the beta bolter drill (36) with a ton of rerolls. It's very annoying to face in ITC format. It gets real annoying when the NDK or draigo gate forward after using that strat and sanctuary to get a 2+ invulnerable save.
BTW the terminator also gets each squad (so 4) a teleporter beacon which apprently costs nothing and zone blocks deepstrike 9" so your basically stuck coming down the pipe toward them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/28 20:00:08
Teleport homers aren’t units, they’re like tyranid infestation nodes and don’t block deepstrike. I’m interested in the maths on vet squads vs rusted claw neophytes in cover, wonder how favourably we come off in that exchange. Also their overwatch vs acolytes as they mulch MEQ
Edit: In vengence round (-2AP) range (18”) using bolter drill, that squad picks off 16.5 neos in cover, yikes. (Assuming watch master rerolls and reroll 1s vs troops). That is preventing them from moving and relatively easily zoned out however. It goes down to 12.4 if they’re using kraken ammo.
The same setup kills 7.1 acolytes on the charge, double yikes. Praise the star gods for our ability to shut off overwatch. The thirteen remaining acolytes will have decent odds of wrecking the kill team if there are rocks saws though.
Sucks that you’re playing ITC vs that list, we’d wreck it in maelstrom due to a lack of mobility.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/28 20:33:36
babelfish wrote: I think that the we need to consider the role of the unit in the army build when talking about pick vs hammer Aberrants. Aberrants are expensive, and really good at killing heavies. Pick Aberrants (paberrants?) have a lot of utility against medium vehicles, MEQ's, and things like that, but I think that the cost advantages of Acolytes make them superior.
Acolytes with saws are better at clearing light/medium infantry via volume of attacks and still threaten everything you want threatened, because saws are amazing. They have access to almost all the same bonuses that Aberrants do, and the ones they can't get are meh (improved snowflake FnP and the Biophagus) with the exception of being able to fight twice. Fight twice is most useful for alpha strikes against must kill targets like Knights.
In conclusion, I think that if you are going to run Aberrants, you should run them with hammers, in the role of deep striking heavy/superheavy killers. I think they have a solid niche in that role, and any GSC list has to at least consider them. I think that running pick Aberrants is a mistake, because the role filled by them is better filled by Acolytes.
As a side note, 10 Acolytes comes out as 6 PL. Banner + 4 Drills + flamers is the most expensive weapon combo, at just under 150 points. 150 points of summoning lets you hold 10 Acolytes kitted out to deal with target of choice in reserves, effectively acting as a sideboard. I need to spend some time playing with points on the various options. Because summoning gets around the must be out of reserves by turn 3, units can be dropped to secure/challenge objectives late game, or snag the odd kill on an otherwise unreachable unit.
Acolytes are still the better choice for super-heavy hunting, though. 10 hammer abberants with MfB deal 25 damage to a castellan, lose one or two to the bracketed return stomps, then destroy it with the second round of attacks (assuming Twisted Helix, of course). 20 acolytes (8 saws) with MfB and the +1 to wound Broodsurge strat just scrap the knight on the charge (32 damage). The acolytes cost 120 fewer points (assuming you brought hand flamers on everyone for generalist duty, 140 otherwise), can be from any sect (so can get a +1 to the charge from 4AE for a safer delivery system), and only use 1CP to the abberants' 3CP.
There just aren't a lot of targets that abberants are better at tackling than acolytes, unfortunately. They pay too much for the small amount of durability they were given (which they need, don't get me wrong, or D2 weapons just wipe them off the board), so we've ended up in another purestrain situation where the best option is the cheap stuff.
babelfish wrote: I think that the we need to consider the role of the unit in the army build when talking about pick vs hammer Aberrants. Aberrants are expensive, and really good at killing heavies. Pick Aberrants (paberrants?) have a lot of utility against medium vehicles, MEQ's, and things like that, but I think that the cost advantages of Acolytes make them superior.
Acolytes with saws are better at clearing light/medium infantry via volume of attacks and still threaten everything you want threatened, because saws are amazing. They have access to almost all the same bonuses that Aberrants do, and the ones they can't get are meh (improved snowflake FnP and the Biophagus) with the exception of being able to fight twice. Fight twice is most useful for alpha strikes against must kill targets like Knights.
In conclusion, I think that if you are going to run Aberrants, you should run them with hammers, in the role of deep striking heavy/superheavy killers. I think they have a solid niche in that role, and any GSC list has to at least consider them. I think that running pick Aberrants is a mistake, because the role filled by them is better filled by Acolytes.
As a side note, 10 Acolytes comes out as 6 PL. Banner + 4 Drills + flamers is the most expensive weapon combo, at just under 150 points. 150 points of summoning lets you hold 10 Acolytes kitted out to deal with target of choice in reserves, effectively acting as a sideboard. I need to spend some time playing with points on the various options. Because summoning gets around the must be out of reserves by turn 3, units can be dropped to secure/challenge objectives late game, or snag the odd kill on an otherwise unreachable unit.
Acolytes are still the better choice for super-heavy hunting, though. 10 hammer abberants with MfB deal 25 damage to a castellan, lose one or two to the bracketed return stomps, then destroy it with the second round of attacks (assuming Twisted Helix, of course). 20 acolytes (8 saws) with MfB and the +1 to wound Broodsurge strat just scrap the knight on the charge (32 damage). The acolytes cost 120 fewer points (assuming you brought hand flamers on everyone for generalist duty, 140 otherwise), can be from any sect (so can get a +1 to the charge from 4AE for a safer delivery system), and only use 1CP to the abberants' 3CP.
There just aren't a lot of targets that abberants are better at tackling than acolytes, unfortunately. They pay too much for the small amount of durability they were given (which they need, don't get me wrong, or D2 weapons just wipe them off the board), so we've ended up in another purestrain situation where the best option is the cheap stuff.
Interesting. I hadn't actually ran the numbers comparing the two. Is that saw only damage or did you include rending claw wounds? If so, did you assume all models survive overwatch and get close enough to swing? Assuming you included rending and all 20 are swinging, I feel it is reasonable to cut 5 or so wounds off your total. That's still 27 wounds, which is impressive.
C4790M wrote: Teleport homers aren’t units, they’re like tyranid infestation nodes and don’t block deepstrike. I’m interested in the maths on vet squads vs rusted claw neophytes in cover, wonder how favourably we come off in that exchange. Also their overwatch vs acolytes as they mulch MEQ
Edit: In vengence round (-2AP) range (18”) using bolter drill, that squad picks off 16.5 neos in cover, yikes. (Assuming watch master rerolls and reroll 1s vs troops). That is preventing them from moving and relatively easily zoned out however. It goes down to 12.4 if they’re using kraken ammo.
The same setup kills 7.1 acolytes on the charge, double yikes. Praise the star gods for our ability to shut off overwatch. The thirteen remaining acolytes will have decent odds of wrecking the kill team if there are rocks saws though.
Sucks that you’re playing ITC vs that list, we’d wreck it in maelstrom due to a lack of mobility.
We shut overwatch off with psychic powers, hence the grey knights. They have an inate +1 to deny plus a strat to roll 3 dice picking the highest two. Also, the homers apparently do work, it's part of their ability. Don't forget they have ignore s cover rounds. Although they may as well use the higher AP of the kraken.
I dislike ITC missions BTW. They are way to heavy on the supposed secondaries which should be called primaries because they decide every game. Using CA2018 missions I would have a much better shot via table control and playing the objectives, in ITC I just die and lose points.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/03/01 19:41:54
Red Corsair wrote: I am not worried about knights though. I am worried about some of the other lists out there that will mulch our infantry. I played this recently while I was just testing units, ITC format, and it butchered through my guys.
Deathwatch Battalion
Watch Master
Librarian
4 Squads of Vets with with max Storm shields and storm bolter
-Blackshield
-Terminator
-Bike
-Vanguard vet
One squad has a heavy bolter for hellfire shells stratagem.
Those squads can piss shots with the beta bolter drill (36) with a ton of rerolls. It's very annoying to face in ITC format. It gets real annoying when the NDK or draigo gate forward after using that strat and sanctuary to get a 2+ invulnerable save.
BTW the terminator also gets each squad (so 4) a teleporter beacon which apprently costs nothing and zone blocks deepstrike 9" so your basically stuck coming down the pipe toward them.
He only gets double shots if he doesn't move, so you can just choose to wait him out T1 and pound him with any borrowed IG artillery you brought (you'll probably want to remove his screens at this point). T2 each DSing acolyte squad should be able to handle a Vet unit as they come down: lose four to overwatch, make it in 82% of the time (with a squad not in charge buff range getting the d6" move strat), and deal 8 of the squad's 12 wounds (plus any from buffs, strats, etc.). You'll lose a few more to the return attacks, not care, and he'll probably ignore morale due to the terminator. Next round he'll fall back and kill more with shooting, but he'll be down to only a couple of marines, so it should be survivable even with depleted squads. Whoever's left at this point can move up, hand flamer, and charge to finish them off.
You'll only have a few (half a dozen or so) left from each squad by the end, but they should be able to neutralize a vet squad each. Obviously that's a lot of "on average", but it should work out most of the time.
Gate-ing a NDK forward seems like a good way to get it killed. Even disregarding Mental Onslaught, there should be enough smites floating around to paste a lone NDK, and failing that you can just swarm it. Even if it makes a charge that turn, it should only be hitting chaff units you don't care about this early in the game.
Also, as noted, the teleport homers let him DS a squad back to them from elsewhere on the field, but aren't models and don't stop you from getting within range. They actually get removed if you move within 9" of them.
C4790M wrote: Teleport homers aren’t units, they’re like tyranid infestation nodes and don’t block deepstrike. I’m interested in the maths on vet squads vs rusted claw neophytes in cover, wonder how favourably we come off in that exchange. Also their overwatch vs acolytes as they mulch MEQ
Edit: In vengence round (-2AP) range (18”) using bolter drill, that squad picks off 16.5 neos in cover, yikes. (Assuming watch master rerolls and reroll 1s vs troops). That is preventing them from moving and relatively easily zoned out however. It goes down to 12.4 if they’re using kraken ammo.
The same setup kills 7.1 acolytes on the charge, double yikes. Praise the star gods for our ability to shut off overwatch. The thirteen remaining acolytes will have decent odds of wrecking the kill team if there are rocks saws though.
Sucks that you’re playing ITC vs that list, we’d wreck it in maelstrom due to a lack of mobility.
We shut overwatch off with psychic powers, hence the grey knights. They have an inate +1 to deny plus a strat to roll 3 dice picking the highest two. Also, the homers apparently do work, it's part of their ability. Don't forget they have ignore s cover rounds. Although they may as well use the higher AP of the kraken.
I hate ITC missions BTW. They suck and are way to heavy on the supposed secondaries which should be called primaries because they decide every game. Using CA2018 missions I would have a much better shot via table control and playing the objectives, in ITC I just die and lose points.
You don't need to shut off much overwatch, just take it with random acolytes (or BBs, if you really want to protect something expensive). Even SBs aren't that scary when hitting on 6s. You'll only lose ~4 guys going in (assuming no cover and kraken bolts to negate any save).
On the homer front, where does it say they block DS? I just checked and the codex doesn't say anything about that (only that they get removed if you move within 9", which may be what he was thinking of and he just confused the two?).
babelfish wrote: I think that the we need to consider the role of the unit in the army build when talking about pick vs hammer Aberrants. Aberrants are expensive, and really good at killing heavies. Pick Aberrants (paberrants?) have a lot of utility against medium vehicles, MEQ's, and things like that, but I think that the cost advantages of Acolytes make them superior.
Acolytes with saws are better at clearing light/medium infantry via volume of attacks and still threaten everything you want threatened, because saws are amazing. They have access to almost all the same bonuses that Aberrants do, and the ones they can't get are meh (improved snowflake FnP and the Biophagus) with the exception of being able to fight twice. Fight twice is most useful for alpha strikes against must kill targets like Knights.
In conclusion, I think that if you are going to run Aberrants, you should run them with hammers, in the role of deep striking heavy/superheavy killers. I think they have a solid niche in that role, and any GSC list has to at least consider them. I think that running pick Aberrants is a mistake, because the role filled by them is better filled by Acolytes.
As a side note, 10 Acolytes comes out as 6 PL. Banner + 4 Drills + flamers is the most expensive weapon combo, at just under 150 points. 150 points of summoning lets you hold 10 Acolytes kitted out to deal with target of choice in reserves, effectively acting as a sideboard. I need to spend some time playing with points on the various options. Because summoning gets around the must be out of reserves by turn 3, units can be dropped to secure/challenge objectives late game, or snag the odd kill on an otherwise unreachable unit.
Acolytes are still the better choice for super-heavy hunting, though. 10 hammer abberants with MfB deal 25 damage to a castellan, lose one or two to the bracketed return stomps, then destroy it with the second round of attacks (assuming Twisted Helix, of course). 20 acolytes (8 saws) with MfB and the +1 to wound Broodsurge strat just scrap the knight on the charge (32 damage). The acolytes cost 120 fewer points (assuming you brought hand flamers on everyone for generalist duty, 140 otherwise), can be from any sect (so can get a +1 to the charge from 4AE for a safer delivery system), and only use 1CP to the abberants' 3CP.
There just aren't a lot of targets that abberants are better at tackling than acolytes, unfortunately. They pay too much for the small amount of durability they were given (which they need, don't get me wrong, or D2 weapons just wipe them off the board), so we've ended up in another purestrain situation where the best option is the cheap stuff.
Interesting. I hadn't actually ran the numbers comparing the two. Is that saw only damage or did you include rending claw wounds? If so, did you assume all models survive overwatch and get close enough to swing? Assuming you included rending and all 20 are swinging, I feel it is reasonable to cut 5 or so wounds off your total. That's still 27 wounds, which is impressive.
Both are without overwatch, but you're only going to lose ~2 models (16 shots on average, so 2.2 dead) to it if you can't shut it down. Still more than enough to kill it (down to 31 damage), as the casualties will be the guys without saws. Abberants risk losing two guys as well, which hurts a lot more but also won't stop them from trashing it with their second round of fighting.
This does include the rending claws and knives for the non-saw acolytes. Each non-saw guy does .445 damage to the knight. The saws are doing the majority of the damage (26.68) and can basically solo the knight themselves. Everyone else is there to eat wounds and give the unit a wider range of targets. Three attacks (two with -1AP and rend) and a hand flamer each are pretty good for anti-infantry duty, after all.
C4790M wrote: Teleport homers aren’t units, they’re like tyranid infestation nodes and don’t block deepstrike. I’m interested in the maths on vet squads vs rusted claw neophytes in cover, wonder how favourably we come off in that exchange. Also their overwatch vs acolytes as they mulch MEQ
Edit: In vengence round (-2AP) range (18”) using bolter drill, that squad picks off 16.5 neos in cover, yikes. (Assuming watch master rerolls and reroll 1s vs troops). That is preventing them from moving and relatively easily zoned out however. It goes down to 12.4 if they’re using kraken ammo.
The same setup kills 7.1 acolytes on the charge, double yikes. Praise the star gods for our ability to shut off overwatch. The thirteen remaining acolytes will have decent odds of wrecking the kill team if there are rocks saws though.
Sucks that you’re playing ITC vs that list, we’d wreck it in maelstrom due to a lack of mobility.
We shut overwatch off with psychic powers, hence the grey knights. They have an inate +1 to deny plus a strat to roll 3 dice picking the highest two. Also, the homers apparently do work, it's part of their ability. Don't forget they have ignore s cover rounds. Although they may as well use the higher AP of the kraken.
I hate ITC missions BTW. They suck and are way to heavy on the supposed secondaries which should be called primaries because they decide every game. Using CA2018 missions I would have a much better shot via table control and playing the objectives, in ITC I just die and lose points.
I actually find I use my patriarch with the amulet relic to shut off overwatch more often then mass hypnosis. I actually give him familiars to increase the amount of units he can touch up. I’ve got the deathwatch codex in front of me. Nothing in teleport homers suggests that they block deepstrike :/
Teleport homers aren’t units, they’re like tyranid infestation nodes and don’t block deepstrike. I’m interested in the maths on vet squads vs rusted claw neophytes in cover, wonder how favourably we come off in that exchange. Also their overwatch vs acolytes as they mulch MEQ
Edit: In vengence round (-2AP) range (18”) using bolter drill, that squad picks off 16.5 neos in cover, yikes. (Assuming watch master rerolls and reroll 1s vs troops). That is preventing them from moving and relatively easily zoned out however. It goes down to 12.4 if they’re using kraken ammo.
The same setup kills 7.1 acolytes on the charge, double yikes. Praise the star gods for our ability to shut off overwatch. The thirteen remaining acolytes will have decent odds of wrecking the kill team if there are rocks saws though.
Sucks that you’re playing ITC vs that list, we’d wreck it in maelstrom due to a lack of mobility.
We shut overwatch off with psychic powers, hence the grey knights. They have an inate +1 to deny plus a strat to roll 3 dice picking the highest two. Also, the homers apparently do work, it's part of their ability. Don't forget they have ignore s cover rounds. Although they may as well use the higher AP of the kraken.
I hate ITC missions BTW. They suck and are way to heavy on the supposed secondaries which should be called primaries because they decide every game. Using CA2018 missions I would have a much better shot via table control and playing the objectives, in ITC I just die and lose points.
You don't need to shut off much overwatch, just take it with random acolytes (or BBs, if you really want to protect something expensive). Even SBs aren't that scary when hitting on 6s. You'll only lose ~4 guys going in (assuming no cover and kraken bolts to negate any save).
On the homer front, where does it say they block DS? I just checked and the codex doesn't say anything about that (only that they get removed if you move within 9", which may be what he was thinking of and he just confused the two?).
I think that the we need to consider the role of the unit in the army build when talking about pick vs hammer Aberrants. Aberrants are expensive, and really good at killing heavies. Pick Aberrants (paberrants?) have a lot of utility against medium vehicles, MEQ's, and things like that, but I think that the cost advantages of Acolytes make them superior.
Acolytes with saws are better at clearing light/medium infantry via volume of attacks and still threaten everything you want threatened, because saws are amazing. They have access to almost all the same bonuses that Aberrants do, and the ones they can't get are meh (improved snowflake FnP and the Biophagus) with the exception of being able to fight twice. Fight twice is most useful for alpha strikes against must kill targets like Knights.
In conclusion, I think that if you are going to run Aberrants, you should run them with hammers, in the role of deep striking heavy/superheavy killers. I think they have a solid niche in that role, and any GSC list has to at least consider them. I think that running pick Aberrants is a mistake, because the role filled by them is better filled by Acolytes.
As a side note, 10 Acolytes comes out as 6 PL. Banner + 4 Drills + flamers is the most expensive weapon combo, at just under 150 points. 150 points of summoning lets you hold 10 Acolytes kitted out to deal with target of choice in reserves, effectively acting as a sideboard. I need to spend some time playing with points on the various options. Because summoning gets around the must be out of reserves by turn 3, units can be dropped to secure/challenge objectives late game, or snag the odd kill on an otherwise unreachable unit.
Acolytes are still the better choice for super-heavy hunting, though. 10 hammer abberants with MfB deal 25 damage to a castellan, lose one or two to the bracketed return stomps, then destroy it with the second round of attacks (assuming Twisted Helix, of course). 20 acolytes (8 saws) with MfB and the +1 to wound Broodsurge strat just scrap the knight on the charge (32 damage). The acolytes cost 120 fewer points (assuming you brought hand flamers on everyone for generalist duty, 140 otherwise), can be from any sect (so can get a +1 to the charge from 4AE for a safer delivery system), and only use 1CP to the abberants' 3CP.
There just aren't a lot of targets that abberants are better at tackling than acolytes, unfortunately. They pay too much for the small amount of durability they were given (which they need, don't get me wrong, or D2 weapons just wipe them off the board), so we've ended up in another purestrain situation where the best option is the cheap stuff.
Interesting. I hadn't actually ran the numbers comparing the two. Is that saw only damage or did you include rending claw wounds? If so, did you assume all models survive overwatch and get close enough to swing? Assuming you included rending and all 20 are swinging, I feel it is reasonable to cut 5 or so wounds off your total. That's still 27 wounds, which is impressive.
Both are without overwatch, but you're only going to lose ~2 models (16 shots on average, so 2.2 dead) to it if you can't shut it down. Still more than enough to kill it (down to 31 damage), as the casualties will be the guys without saws. Abberants risk losing two guys as well, which hurts a lot more but also won't stop them from trashing it with their second round of fighting.
This does include the rending claws and knives for the non-saw acolytes. Each non-saw guy does .445 damage to the knight. The saws are doing the majority of the damage (26.68) and can basically solo the knight themselves. Everyone else is there to eat wounds and give the unit a wider range of targets. Three attacks (two with -1AP and rend) and a hand flamer each are pretty good for anti-infantry duty, after all.
I spoilered 90% of this to cut down on thread clutter. Based on your numbers, I'm thinking that turning off overwatch may be a waste of a spell. Unless you build towards it, your going to cap at 2-3 casts per turn. MfB on the Saw's, then either Mind Control or mortal wound nuke. Shooting someone with their own Knight, then oneshotting it with saw's is pretty nasty slap in the face. If you can hurt/kill a third unit with Mental Onslaught you might have locked in the win in a single turn. Plus the Patriarch can carry the no overwatch relic, look for a longish (7" if C4AE) charge, and solve that problem. If the Knight manages to survive the Acolytes, they can eat any wounds that land on the Patriarch and he has a good chance of finishing it off. The Patriarch wants to be part of the drop with the Acolytes anyway, so you don't lose anything even if he fails the charge.
I'm not sold on adding flamers to the 20 man saw blob. I think if you are going to run flamers, a 20 man flamer drop turn 2 and a 20 man saw drop turn 3 is the way to go. That said, I plan on using either Kraken 'stealers or Jorgmundr devilgaunts for my screen clearing, mostly because I already have 60+ of each and am not happy about $160 for 20 models. If I was less lazy willing to break the pistols off my existing models or was buying a bunch more, I could very much see 1 pt/model flamers as a good idea.
edited cause tags are hard.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2019/03/01 01:41:01
C4790M wrote: Teleport homers aren’t units, they’re like tyranid infestation nodes and don’t block deepstrike. I’m interested in the maths on vet squads vs rusted claw neophytes in cover, wonder how favourably we come off in that exchange. Also their overwatch vs acolytes as they mulch MEQ
Edit: In vengence round (-2AP) range (18”) using bolter drill, that squad picks off 16.5 neos in cover, yikes. (Assuming watch master rerolls and reroll 1s vs troops). That is preventing them from moving and relatively easily zoned out however. It goes down to 12.4 if they’re using kraken ammo.
The same setup kills 7.1 acolytes on the charge, double yikes. Praise the star gods for our ability to shut off overwatch. The thirteen remaining acolytes will have decent odds of wrecking the kill team if there are rocks saws though.
Sucks that you’re playing ITC vs that list, we’d wreck it in maelstrom due to a lack of mobility.
We shut overwatch off with psychic powers, hence the grey knights. They have an inate +1 to deny plus a strat to roll 3 dice picking the highest two. Also, the homers apparently do work, it's part of their ability. Don't forget they have ignore s cover rounds. Although they may as well use the higher AP of the kraken.
I hate ITC missions BTW. They suck and are way to heavy on the supposed secondaries which should be called primaries because they decide every game. Using CA2018 missions I would have a much better shot via table control and playing the objectives, in ITC I just die and lose points.
You don't need to shut off much overwatch, just take it with random acolytes (or BBs, if you really want to protect something expensive). Even SBs aren't that scary when hitting on 6s. You'll only lose ~4 guys going in (assuming no cover and kraken bolts to negate any save).
On the homer front, where does it say they block DS? I just checked and the codex doesn't say anything about that (only that they get removed if you move within 9", which may be what he was thinking of and he just confused the two?).
Trimarius wrote:
Spoiler:
Red Corsair wrote: I am not worried about knights though. I am worried about some of the other lists out there that will mulch our infantry. I played this recently while I was just testing units, ITC format, and it butchered through my guys.
Deathwatch Battalion
Watch Master
Librarian
4 Squads of Vets with with max Storm shields and storm bolter
-Blackshield
-Terminator
-Bike
-Vanguard vet
One squad has a heavy bolter for hellfire shells stratagem.
Those squads can piss shots with the beta bolter drill (36) with a ton of rerolls. It's very annoying to face in ITC format. It gets real annoying when the NDK or draigo gate forward after using that strat and sanctuary to get a 2+ invulnerable save.
BTW the terminator also gets each squad (so 4) a teleporter beacon which apprently costs nothing and zone blocks deepstrike 9" so your basically stuck coming down the pipe toward them.
He only gets double shots if he doesn't move, so you can just choose to wait him out T1 and pound him with any borrowed IG artillery you brought (you'll probably want to remove his screens at this point). T2 each DSing acolyte squad should be able to handle a Vet unit as they come down: lose four to overwatch, make it in 82% of the time (with a squad not in charge buff range getting the d6" move strat), and deal 8 of the squad's 12 wounds (plus any from buffs, strats, etc.). You'll lose a few more to the return attacks, not care, and he'll probably ignore morale due to the terminator. Next round he'll fall back and kill more with shooting, but he'll be down to only a couple of marines, so it should be survivable even with depleted squads. Whoever's left at this point can move up, hand flamer, and charge to finish them off.
You'll only have a few (half a dozen or so) left from each squad by the end, but they should be able to neutralize a vet squad each. Obviously that's a lot of "on average", but it should work out most of the time.
Gate-ing a NDK forward seems like a good way to get it killed. Even disregarding Mental Onslaught, there should be enough smites floating around to paste a lone NDK, and failing that you can just swarm it. Even if it makes a charge that turn, it should only be hitting chaff units you don't care about this early in the game.
Also, as noted, the teleport homers let him DS a squad back to them from elsewhere on the field, but aren't models and don't stop you from getting within range. They actually get removed if you move within 9" of them.
First off, thanks for the debate, it really helps me wrap my brain around the issue.
Can you point me in the direction of the rules source that demonstrates the homers don't block reserves? It is clearly a model in his army, does it specifically tell you it doesn't block reserves 9"? Because I have no idea why you are assuming it wouldn't. Honest question because I will need to support my interpretation at the table.
To push back a bit though, first I want to make it clear that I am assuming he is in range of all his auras. I know that's not gona be a thing with all his units but at some point I need to adress his units near the watch master. So on over watch he is getting 6 hits in the first volley, then another 5 hits after rerolls. 11 hits wounding on either 2's rerolling 1's or 3's rerolling 1's with no save will kill a lot more then 4 guys.
Also please note, he has multiple stratagems that will be a pain and I can only cancel one post FAQ. The Grey Knights will try to deny my MO with the 3d6 strat, which is why is will never work to kill his dread knight with a 2++ unless I block it, even then he has positive odds at the denial after a command reroll since he gets +1. If I burn my cancel in the psychic phase it means I never used it to cancel his auspex scan in the movement phase, meaning he deletes more then one unit before I roll dice to get in. All of this BTW assumes I can get in range, turn 1 I need to remove his loyal 32 but then he can just gate his 2++ dread knight in the middle of the table before I come in the next turn. Smites won't drop him since he can always burn the 5+++ strat on mortals and as I said, he will most likely deny my MO. Even if I remove the NDK, he has draigo and a second 1 to repeat the process.
My only ideas previously have been to spam trucks, neos and BB's and just shoot him down. But if he is in cover this becomes such a struggle all while I bleed secondaries and kill more each turn. Maybe I need to send 60+ acolytes in transports down his throat while I figure out the right fire base to remove the screen. Did I mention I dislike ITC missions? I still have fun losing BTW I just am not a fan of the missions for this reason, everything becomes about the stupid secondaries. His list is just really strong because it really doesn't give up any secondaries easily at all. Maybe I am better off milking his loyal 32 for kill a thing and playing out recon, old school and BELines?
EDIT No idea why the quote boxes are being stupid, sorry
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/03/01 01:39:52
Can you point me in the direction of the rules source that demonstrates the homers don't block reserves? It is clearly a model in his army, does it specifically tell you it doesn't block reserves 9"? Because I have no idea why you are assuming it wouldn't. Honest question because I will need to support my interpretation at the table.
How exactly does the relic sniper interact with Grey Knights tight now? Combo it with a bike sniper for the +1 to hit, perfect ambush it, get two shots at a 2+/4+ Perils on any model.
Can you point me in the direction of the rules source that demonstrates the homers don't block reserves? It is clearly a model in his army, does it specifically tell you it doesn't block reserves 9"? Because I have no idea why you are assuming it wouldn't. Honest question because I will need to support my interpretation at the table.
Ah thanks, this helps loads. Him having 4x 18" diameter zones where I could not drop in was massive. It let him spread out across the table and still be able to press forward with his veterans sandwiched between tokens and loyal 32. Without that he needs to consolidate his forces together opening up the flanks, or remain in his deployment giving me board control either way. I asked him if it had been FAQ'd, not his fault thogh he probably checked the DWFAQ's like I would have. Strange that it is in the BRBFAQ but not theirs.
I still think this our army struggles in ITC which sucks. I might have to just play another army sadly.
Astmeister wrote: I already included the additional attacks with rending claws for power picks. Hammers are still better as you can see.
You didn't calculate Rotate Ion Shields or Iron Bulward into your equation that's why the numbers seemed different to me at 4++ I'm getting 15 Unsaved Wounds from 10Hammerants and 6.667 From the 10Picks and 3.333 from the 10Rending Claw Attacks at 3++ it gets even closer. Hammers are still better but damn for 300 points, a 3CP Strategem to get you closer from your ambush, MFB, probably a Psyker power to get you into Combat, a 3CP to Fight again and a limited role afterwards doesn't seem like the best investment. If they don't have that Relic then you're getting 25 unsaved wounds from the Hammers which is fantastic but this discussion has gotten me seriously debating whether or not to take them which sucks as I have 16 of them plus an abomination that I just finished and they look nice.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/03/01 15:31:22
Astmeister wrote: I already included the additional attacks with rending claws for power picks. Hammers are still better as you can see.
You didn't calculate Rotate Ion Shields or Iron Bulward into your equation that's why the numbers seemed different to me at 4++ I'm getting 15 Unsaved Wounds from 10Hammerants and 6.667 From the 10Picks and 3.333 from the 10Rending Claw Attacks at 3++ it gets even closer. Hammers are still better but damn for 300 points, a 3CP Strategem to get you closer from your ambush, MFB, probably a Psyker power to get you into Combat, a 3CP to Fight again and a limited role afterwards doesn't seem like the best investment. If they don't have that Relic then you're getting 25 unsaved wounds from the Hammers which is fantastic but this discussion has gotten me seriously debating whether or not to take them which sucks as I have 16 of them plus an abomination that I just finished and they look nice.
But that invun is only vs shooting, so it doesn't really matter in that comparison, doesn't it?
Teleport homers aren’t units, they’re like tyranid infestation nodes and don’t block deepstrike. I’m interested in the maths on vet squads vs rusted claw neophytes in cover, wonder how favourably we come off in that exchange. Also their overwatch vs acolytes as they mulch MEQ
Edit: In vengence round (-2AP) range (18”) using bolter drill, that squad picks off 16.5 neos in cover, yikes. (Assuming watch master rerolls and reroll 1s vs troops). That is preventing them from moving and relatively easily zoned out however. It goes down to 12.4 if they’re using kraken ammo.
The same setup kills 7.1 acolytes on the charge, double yikes. Praise the star gods for our ability to shut off overwatch. The thirteen remaining acolytes will have decent odds of wrecking the kill team if there are rocks saws though.
Sucks that you’re playing ITC vs that list, we’d wreck it in maelstrom due to a lack of mobility.
We shut overwatch off with psychic powers, hence the grey knights. They have an inate +1 to deny plus a strat to roll 3 dice picking the highest two. Also, the homers apparently do work, it's part of their ability. Don't forget they have ignore s cover rounds. Although they may as well use the higher AP of the kraken.
I hate ITC missions BTW. They suck and are way to heavy on the supposed secondaries which should be called primaries because they decide every game. Using CA2018 missions I would have a much better shot via table control and playing the objectives, in ITC I just die and lose points.
You don't need to shut off much overwatch, just take it with random acolytes (or BBs, if you really want to protect something expensive). Even SBs aren't that scary when hitting on 6s. You'll only lose ~4 guys going in (assuming no cover and kraken bolts to negate any save).
On the homer front, where does it say they block DS? I just checked and the codex doesn't say anything about that (only that they get removed if you move within 9", which may be what he was thinking of and he just confused the two?).
I think that the we need to consider the role of the unit in the army build when talking about pick vs hammer Aberrants. Aberrants are expensive, and really good at killing heavies. Pick Aberrants (paberrants?) have a lot of utility against medium vehicles, MEQ's, and things like that, but I think that the cost advantages of Acolytes make them superior.
Acolytes with saws are better at clearing light/medium infantry via volume of attacks and still threaten everything you want threatened, because saws are amazing. They have access to almost all the same bonuses that Aberrants do, and the ones they can't get are meh (improved snowflake FnP and the Biophagus) with the exception of being able to fight twice. Fight twice is most useful for alpha strikes against must kill targets like Knights.
In conclusion, I think that if you are going to run Aberrants, you should run them with hammers, in the role of deep striking heavy/superheavy killers. I think they have a solid niche in that role, and any GSC list has to at least consider them. I think that running pick Aberrants is a mistake, because the role filled by them is better filled by Acolytes.
As a side note, 10 Acolytes comes out as 6 PL. Banner + 4 Drills + flamers is the most expensive weapon combo, at just under 150 points. 150 points of summoning lets you hold 10 Acolytes kitted out to deal with target of choice in reserves, effectively acting as a sideboard. I need to spend some time playing with points on the various options. Because summoning gets around the must be out of reserves by turn 3, units can be dropped to secure/challenge objectives late game, or snag the odd kill on an otherwise unreachable unit.
Acolytes are still the better choice for super-heavy hunting, though. 10 hammer abberants with MfB deal 25 damage to a castellan, lose one or two to the bracketed return stomps, then destroy it with the second round of attacks (assuming Twisted Helix, of course). 20 acolytes (8 saws) with MfB and the +1 to wound Broodsurge strat just scrap the knight on the charge (32 damage). The acolytes cost 120 fewer points (assuming you brought hand flamers on everyone for generalist duty, 140 otherwise), can be from any sect (so can get a +1 to the charge from 4AE for a safer delivery system), and only use 1CP to the abberants' 3CP.
There just aren't a lot of targets that abberants are better at tackling than acolytes, unfortunately. They pay too much for the small amount of durability they were given (which they need, don't get me wrong, or D2 weapons just wipe them off the board), so we've ended up in another purestrain situation where the best option is the cheap stuff.
Interesting. I hadn't actually ran the numbers comparing the two. Is that saw only damage or did you include rending claw wounds? If so, did you assume all models survive overwatch and get close enough to swing? Assuming you included rending and all 20 are swinging, I feel it is reasonable to cut 5 or so wounds off your total. That's still 27 wounds, which is impressive.
Both are without overwatch, but you're only going to lose ~2 models (16 shots on average, so 2.2 dead) to it if you can't shut it down. Still more than enough to kill it (down to 31 damage), as the casualties will be the guys without saws. Abberants risk losing two guys as well, which hurts a lot more but also won't stop them from trashing it with their second round of fighting.
This does include the rending claws and knives for the non-saw acolytes. Each non-saw guy does .445 damage to the knight. The saws are doing the majority of the damage (26.68) and can basically solo the knight themselves. Everyone else is there to eat wounds and give the unit a wider range of targets. Three attacks (two with -1AP and rend) and a hand flamer each are pretty good for anti-infantry duty, after all.
I spoilered 90% of this to cut down on thread clutter. Based on your numbers, I'm thinking that turning off overwatch may be a waste of a spell. Unless you build towards it, your going to cap at 2-3 casts per turn. MfB on the Saw's, then either Mind Control or mortal wound nuke. Shooting someone with their own Knight, then oneshotting it with saw's is pretty nasty slap in the face. If you can hurt/kill a third unit with Mental Onslaught you might have locked in the win in a single turn. Plus the Patriarch can carry the no overwatch relic, look for a longish (7" if C4AE) charge, and solve that problem. If the Knight manages to survive the Acolytes, they can eat any wounds that land on the Patriarch and he has a good chance of finishing it off. The Patriarch wants to be part of the drop with the Acolytes anyway, so you don't lose anything even if he fails the charge.
I'm not sold on adding flamers to the 20 man saw blob. I think if you are going to run flamers, a 20 man flamer drop turn 2 and a 20 man saw drop turn 3 is the way to go. That said, I plan on using either Kraken 'stealers or Jorgmundr devilgaunts for my screen clearing, mostly because I already have 60+ of each and am not happy about $160 for 20 models. If I was less lazy willing to break the pistols off my existing models or was buying a bunch more, I could very much see 1 pt/model flamers as a good idea.
edited cause tags are hard.
The flamers are only 20 points, which is a pretty good deal just for the flexibility they bring. 240 points for a unit that can mulch infantry and still one-shot a knight seems like a steal, even if you don't end up using both options for each unit in a given game.
Yeah, $40 for 5 is insane, though. Personally, I'm planning on converting up more acolytes from necromunda gangers with extra arms (specifically the double arms) and heads from the acolyte/metamorph kit. There are so many extras that you can do a whole ten-man box with the bits from one acolyte box.
Red Corsair wrote:
To push back a bit though, first I want to make it clear that I am assuming he is in range of all his auras. I know that's not gona be a thing with all his units but at some point I need to adress his units near the watch master. So on over watch he is getting 6 hits in the first volley, then another 5 hits after rerolls. 11 hits wounding on either 2's rerolling 1's or 3's rerolling 1's with no save will kill a lot more then 4 guys.
Also please note, he has multiple stratagems that will be a pain and I can only cancel one post FAQ. The Grey Knights will try to deny my MO with the 3d6 strat, which is why is will never work to kill his dread knight with a 2++ unless I block it, even then he has positive odds at the denial after a command reroll since he gets +1. If I burn my cancel in the psychic phase it means I never used it to cancel his auspex scan in the movement phase, meaning he deletes more then one unit before I roll dice to get in. All of this BTW assumes I can get in range, turn 1 I need to remove his loyal 32 but then he can just gate his 2++ dread knight in the middle of the table before I come in the next turn. Smites won't drop him since he can always burn the 5+++ strat on mortals and as I said, he will most likely deny my MO. Even if I remove the NDK, he has draigo and a second 1 to repeat the process.
My only ideas previously have been to spam trucks, neos and BB's and just shoot him down. But if he is in cover this becomes such a struggle all while I bleed secondaries and kill more each turn. Maybe I need to send 60+ acolytes in transports down his throat while I figure out the right fire base to remove the screen. Did I mention I dislike ITC missions? I still have fun losing BTW I just am not a fan of the missions for this reason, everything becomes about the stupid secondaries. His list is just really strong because it really doesn't give up any secondaries easily at all. Maybe I am better off milking his loyal 32 for kill a thing and playing out recon, old school and BELines?
EDIT No idea why the quote boxes are being stupid, sorry
Don't forget that he needs to beat you with the deny, so even with his +1 its more of a 50/50 than assured, and that he needs to be within 24" to deny (so if you're hanging back for a round, only the GMNDK with its single deny will be in range). If he denies the MO (he certainly going to try, or that character pops, though if you roll well for the MO it might be worth it to vect the 3d6 deny for the kill), that still leaves you with however many smites you can sling unopposed. I generally have ~six available (five after the patriarch goes for MO), which should take a significant chunk out of him even with the 5+++, but you may have a different number. Then all of your on-board small arms and melee should be able to finish him off easily, even through the 2++.
As for the buffed overwatch, you can turn that off for one unit with a spell and charge in a patriarch with the amulet that negates OW to stop another. He can only use the 3d6 deny strat once a phase, so cast that before you go in to MO a GMNDK/Draigo/the watchmaster and he won't use it (or if he does, just MO the watchmaster to death, which you might as well try anyway even with the super deny). If there're still too many in range, you'll just have to throw bodies at them and accept the casualties. Ideally something cheap like brood brothers will eat it to save the more expensive acolytes, but at worst you can always try and recover the lost acolytes from the sacrificial squad with the d6 resurrection strat (if he doesn't finish it off).
And if he's all clustered up to overlap buffs, you should be able to get all your buffs on your guys, too. Rerolling with +1" to charges, +1 to hit, fearless, fnp, bonus denies, spells, easy order range for BBs, etc..
It's not going to be a completely one sided blow out, but dropping right in his face with most of your army (normally I'd use They Came From Below to hit him turn one, but in this instance it might be better to hold off until everything else comes in) denies him the infantry shredding SIA-SB shooting he'd get if you ran up the field and a massive pile of basic attacks (from acolyte claws and flamers) circumvents his storm shield advantage, which are the two things he's relying on to win.
Astmeister wrote: I already included the additional attacks with rending claws for power picks. Hammers are still better as you can see.
You didn't calculate Rotate Ion Shields or Iron Bulward into your equation that's why the numbers seemed different to me at 4++ I'm getting 15 Unsaved Wounds from 10Hammerants and 6.667 From the 10Picks and 3.333 from the 10Rending Claw Attacks at 3++ it gets even closer. Hammers are still better but damn for 300 points, a 3CP Strategem to get you closer from your ambush, MFB, probably a Psyker power to get you into Combat, a 3CP to Fight again and a limited role afterwards doesn't seem like the best investment. If they don't have that Relic then you're getting 25 unsaved wounds from the Hammers which is fantastic but this discussion has gotten me seriously debating whether or not to take them which sucks as I have 16 of them plus an abomination that I just finished and they look nice.
Ion Shields (and the Ion Bulwark WL trait) only work against ranged weapons, as noted, so you're good to punch it to death. And they're not taking the melee 5++ relic, because that means no Cawl's Wrath, which is the only reason you even see castellans (well, Cawl's Wrath in combo with the Raven strat, anyway).
The a-bomb should extremely reliably take out a castellan if you can get them to it. You should do something like 45 wounds to it if you fight twice. I prefer acolytes with saws (cheaper, more flexible, but will still scrap a castellan), but the abberants will totally wreck a knight.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/01 16:08:19
Astmeister wrote: I already included the additional attacks with rending claws for power picks. Hammers are still better as you can see.
You didn't calculate Rotate Ion Shields or Iron Bulward into your equation that's why the numbers seemed different to me at 4++ I'm getting 15 Unsaved Wounds from 10Hammerants and 6.667 From the 10Picks and 3.333 from the 10Rending Claw Attacks at 3++ it gets even closer. Hammers are still better but damn for 300 points, a 3CP Strategem to get you closer from your ambush, MFB, probably a Psyker power to get you into Combat, a 3CP to Fight again and a limited role afterwards doesn't seem like the best investment. If they don't have that Relic then you're getting 25 unsaved wounds from the Hammers which is fantastic but this discussion has gotten me seriously debating whether or not to take them which sucks as I have 16 of them plus an abomination that I just finished and they look nice.
But that invun is only vs shooting, so it doesn't really matter in that comparison, doesn't it?
The Sanctuary Relic allows you to take the invulnerable in melee and my question was specifically regrading a knight with this relic.
Astmeister wrote: I already included the additional attacks with rending claws for power picks. Hammers are still better as you can see.
You didn't calculate Rotate Ion Shields or Iron Bulward into your equation that's why the numbers seemed different to me at 4++ I'm getting 15 Unsaved Wounds from 10Hammerants and 6.667 From the 10Picks and 3.333 from the 10Rending Claw Attacks at 3++ it gets even closer. Hammers are still better but damn for 300 points, a 3CP Strategem to get you closer from your ambush, MFB, probably a Psyker power to get you into Combat, a 3CP to Fight again and a limited role afterwards doesn't seem like the best investment. If they don't have that Relic then you're getting 25 unsaved wounds from the Hammers which is fantastic but this discussion has gotten me seriously debating whether or not to take them which sucks as I have 16 of them plus an abomination that I just finished and they look nice.
But that invun is only vs shooting, so it doesn't really matter in that comparison, doesn't it?
The Sanctuary Relic allows you to take the invulnerable in melee and my question was specifically regrading a knight with this relic.
Note that Ion Bulwark only applies to shooting, so it's a 5++ (4++ with RIS) in melee. Never a 3++.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Don't forget that he needs to beat you with the deny, so even with his +1 its more of a 50/50 than assured, and that he needs to be within 24" to deny (so if you're hanging back for a round, only the GMNDK with its single deny will be in range). If he denies the MO (he certainly going to try, or that character pops, though if you roll well for the MO it might be worth it to vect the 3d6 deny for the kill), that still leaves you with however many smites you can sling unopposed. I generally have ~six available (five after the patriarch goes for MO), which should take a significant chunk out of him even with the 5+++, but you may have a different number. Then all of your on-board small arms and melee should be able to finish him off easily, even through the 2++.
As for the buffed overwatch, you can turn that off for one unit with a spell and charge in a patriarch with the amulet that negates OW to stop another. He can only use the 3d6 deny strat once a phase, so cast that before you go in to MO a GMNDK/Draigo/the watchmaster and he won't use it (or if he does, just MO the watchmaster to death, which you might as well try anyway even with the super deny). If there're still too many in range, you'll just have to throw bodies at them and accept the casualties. Ideally something cheap like brood brothers will eat it to save the more expensive acolytes, but at worst you can always try and recover the lost acolytes from the sacrificial squad with the d6 resurrection strat (if he doesn't finish it off).
And if he's all clustered up to overlap buffs, you should be able to get all your buffs on your guys, too. Rerolling with +1" to charges, +1 to hit, fearless, fnp, bonus denies, spells, easy order range for BBs, etc..
It's not going to be a completely one sided blow out, but dropping right in his face with most of your army (normally I'd use They Came From Below to hit him turn one, but in this instance it might be better to hold off until everything else comes in) denies him the infantry shredding SIA-SB shooting he'd get if you ran up the field and a massive pile of basic attacks (from acolyte claws and flamers) circumvents his storm shield advantage, which are the two things he's relying on to win.
I think your over simplifying things a bit and I don't really want to get into vacuum hammer. You keep referring to strategies that you can't use at once. For example I can't cancel his deny stratagem and auspex scan, I get one use per game. I also cannot psychic mortal wound spam his dude and cast mass hypnosis. I know how to beat the army, I just don't know how to do it and win the ITC format. Our army literally functions by hurling wave after wave at the opponent, that is a terrible style in ITC. You basically hand them easy secondaries and kill more every turn and play from behind. It's part of the reason I am not a fan of ITC missions, I realize any format will be gamed, but that format in particular focuses on castles and gun lines too much. You only ever need to hold 1 objective.
What are your ideas on a list? I think that might be a better direction for the discussion.
I think your over simplifying things a bit and I don't really want to get into vacuum hammer. You keep referring to strategies that you can't use at once. For example I can't cancel his deny stratagem and auspex scan, I get one use per game. I also cannot psychic mortal wound spam his dude and cast mass hypnosis. I know how to beat the army, I just don't know how to do it and win the ITC format. Our army literally functions by hurling wave after wave at the opponent, that is a terrible style in ITC. You basically hand them easy secondaries and kill more every turn and play from behind. It's part of the reason I am not a fan of ITC missions, I realize any format will be gamed, but that format in particular focuses on castles and gun lines too much. You only ever need to hold 1 objective.
What are your ideas on a list? I think that might be a better direction for the discussion.
It is all fairly general, but there's not really a way to get really specific without an actual game getting played. There's always that aspect of choosing the correct way to expend limited resources during a game.
I'm not sure GSC do particularly horribly in ITC, as those secondary objectives are all so easy to get. My comments are all academic, though, as no one around here uses that setup. Because, really, when eight out of eleven secondaries (and all of the ones you can score rapidly) and three out of four primaries (come on, hold one objective that you could deploy on is not a game objective, it's a waste of ink) there are really quite obvious consequences.
The only thing I could suggest is to play for the "hold more objectives" battle round primary (and the scenario point, if it's not one of the insanely awkward ones) while maxing out on your own murder-based secondaries in return (under the assumption that he will also get 12 secondary points). His army isn't particularly mobile and wants to castle up, so you should be able to snag that one with disposable BB/Neophyte units more often than he can, letting you eke out a victory that way.
Then you try to cripple his army with an overwhelming strike on turn two, which should be able to limit his return fire somewhat. You'll just need to make sure you limit what he can kill on T1 (he doesn't have a ton of firepower if you hang back, so you shouldn't lose that much) while still clearing out the IG screen as best you can (here's where those mortars/wyverns/whatever other long ranged shooting are going to be critical).
His whole army is centered around vicious anti-infantry firepower and amazing invulnerable saves. By deepstriking most of your list into his face on turn two and dishing out a ton of middling attacks that don't lose much vs a 3++ you bypass both of those to a fair degree. Just don't try and footslog it up the field at him; that'll result in him blasting multiple squads off the table in each shooting phase and then picking the remnants apart as he falls back once you do manage to get the stragglers into combat.
To sum it up: DS 75% of your army at him T2 and hope to crush him, or walk at him and lose.
Astmeister wrote: Okay if you define what kind of save the knight will have, I can calculate it.
The possible saves for a Knight are:
3+
3+/5++
3+/4++
2+
Since both the 2+ and 5++ are different Relics, they can never have both a 2+ and an Invuln in close combat.
Edit: This is CODEX Knights. Some FW Knight might have a native 2+ or something, but I assume we're talking main GW only.
5++ and 2+ are the same for abberants (-3 AP turns that 2+ into a 5+ anyway), so there's really only three strata. You need either the MfB for the +1S and +1A or the Twisted Helix fight twice strat to kill a knight with a 3+ and no melee invul and both to kill either knight that has a melee invul or a 2+ save. A dominus with the 4++ in melee could survive with a little luck, unfortunately, as you only average a tiny bit of overkill. I've never seen a dominus without its associated relic gun, though, so you should be ok.
Can we talk about extra explosives and demoliton charge deliverance?
Top canidates for delivery: Atlan Jackals and Acolyte Hyrbids. 1 CP for extra explosives, 2 CP for Lying in Waight. Potensially 1 CP for Drive-By Demolition if you are rusted claw.
Is it worth using it with Acolyte Hyrbids, or do we need Jackals. Can we stop at 4 demolition charges, or do we need to push it to 5? Also, is Drive-By Demonilition mandatory? + 1 to hit and +1 to damge is insane. Can 5 of them kill a Castelan? What if you add a Jackal Alphus. I mean, 5d6 hitting on 2+ D8 with +1 on the damage roll AP-3 and 1d3 damage. That seem real legit. Is it an alternative to charging from a perfect ambush?
And 5d6 is 17.5 shots.
Hitting on a 2+ is 14.583 hits.
Wounding on a 3+ is 9.722 wounds.
At AP-2, that's anywhere from a 3++ to a 5++.
At 5++, it's 12.963 damage.
Halve that (6.481 damage) for a 3++.
In other words... No. You won't even bracket one with only a 5++.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
