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What's the hot take on Neophytes with Shotguns? Do the benefits makeup for the loss of range compared to Autoguns?
I have fifty million (give or take) Guardsmen I could use as Brood Brothers anyway, so I'm considering building my Neophytes with them, but if it's a waste of time I'm content with Autoguns.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/04 23:57:12
Your Nexos is pretty useless because he needs to roll 6's. Not having 4AE for your assault elements in a huge deal, you cannot afford to fail those charges, same with not having the re-roll from Broodsurge Iconward.
<Got rid of a bunch of clutter>
I don't mind the Nexos being on 6's. I think the two or three CP I get out of him is worth his cost. That said, I am on the fence about Twisted Helix. I can very much see the argument for running the entire thing as 4AE. I don't have access to Broodsurge yet (spent my gaming funds this month on models instead). I may just swap to pure 4AE and rely on Might from Beyond for the S buff. The extra CP out of the Nexos will be a nice addition
As the faq said "that model can either shoot as if it were your Shooting phase, or make a single close combat attack as if it were the Fight phase."
Resolving an attack does not include moves. Furthermore this is a special action made in psychic phase. Imo this does only use step 3-5 from the fight phase.
My answer would be NO.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/05 14:34:16
24.000 Tyranids painted, still rising in numbers
4.000 Genestealer Cult
7.000
If it said "fight as if it were the fight phase' then yes, but since it specifically says 'make a single cc attack' that's all you get to do, no pile in/consolidate.
Arbitrator wrote: What's the hot take on Neophytes with Shotguns? Do the benefits makeup for the loss of range compared to Autoguns?
I have fifty million (give or take) Guardsmen I could use as Brood Brothers anyway, so I'm considering building my Neophytes with them, but if it's a waste of time I'm content with Autoguns.
My experience has been that the range is rarely a factor. Usually mine either drop in via ambush or get assigned to mid-field objectives where the foe will generally come to them one way or another. I really like the extra strength that can be had at 6'', as it makes a huge difference against most infantry and the squad has enough volume of fire to be threatening. I've also won games by having a shotgun squad advance to an objective to contest and kill just enough of the opposing models with their subsequent shooting to claim the objective outright.
For footsloggers that aren't taking much in the way of additional weaponry I'd recommend the shotguns. For truck-mounted squads the autoguns + heavy mining weapons are better since they offer more force concentration and the range is more important (Goliath Trucks generally like to hang back if they can help it).
EDIT: Found out that "Lying In Wait" can't be used 1st turn and Perfect Ambush cannot be used in Psychic phase so this whole concept collapses.
Has anyone made use of Telepathic Summons for Turn 1 deep-strike? It seems to me that if we're able to start pressuring screens and key units from turn 1 we'll be in a much better place as the game goes on. I'm going to try it out but I'd like to hear other experiences with this angle.
Keeping back 80 points and putting a Magus or Patriarch on board opens up quite a lot of opportunity. Mind you, you have to have the models available in your collection so this is not likely a strategy that will be easily available for newer players.
It's very likely on the 3D6 summoning roll to get any of the following units, chosen based on opponent and deployment opportunities.
80 Points (6PL) for 10 Acolytes with Handflamers
80 Points (5PL) for 20 Brood Brothers
80 Points (6PL) 10 bare-bones Bikes
78 Pts. (3PL) HWT with Lascannons
77 Pts. (6PL) 7 Metamorphs w/2 Talons
75 Points (6PL) for 5 Bike Demo Squad
60 Pts. (3PL) Kellermorph
60 Pts. (3PL) Sanctus
Most of these are going to need to use further strats such as Lying In Wait, Perfect Ambush and Extra Explosives so it's expensive CP wise but it does give us a chance to do some of our most powerful stuff an additional time per game. Usually in my experience the units that use those strats are doing their thing on T2 and T3. Pushing back the opportunity by a whole turn is pretty exciting.
There's a lot of tactical variety possible in only 80 points of reserves. For instance 10 Bikes are excellent at movement blocking if you go first and can do a decent job of screen clearing with just blasting charges at the Rusted Claw strat to buff them. Kellermorphs, with their small foot-print can find cracks in early deployment. Metamorphs put out insane amounts of attacks but don't get used because they compete with Acolytes who want to use Perfect Ambush as well. It's also nice to have an Acolyte Handflamer unit on T1 so the Bikes can use "Lying In Wait" turns 2 and 3. Same basic idea...spreading out the strat use over an additional early turn.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/05 18:06:10
In the case of Metamorphs I don't think summoning is a bad idea at all. Their biomorphs are very specialized compared to the weapon options on the other assault troops, so being able to tailor their load-out for the opponent is really helpful. Plus, if you have a match-up where you don't need a mass attack anti-infantry specialist you can recycle the set aside points for something else.
For first turn summoning, I'd probably lean towards one of the 3rd/4th generation units. Being able to shoot after arriving means you aren't in quite as much trouble if fail a charge with them, and generally speaking they are more durable-per-point than the assault specialists. Purestrains might be a good subject too due to their mobility. Just drop them out of line of sight on the opponent's side of the table and move in turn 2 with the rest of the ambushers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/05 18:39:49
Considering this for a 1000pt list. Please let me know what you think. It's not meant to be hyper-competitive, but I still want it to be reasonably powerful. The Brood Brothers are mainly there because I have loads of Guardsmen models.
As far as shooty lists, despite Hivecult seemingly best suited for it I’d have to say their benefits are kind of outweighed by what you get from Rusted Claw or Bladed Cog. Maybe a detachment of Hivecult sitting in the back buffing a bunch of Laser Ridgerunners, but the bulk should be something else for survivability.
Can anyone recommend a decent all-purpose loadout for Atalan Jackals? I have a bunch of models to build but I am still pretty new to 40k and they have so many weapon options that I am struggling to figure out how they are supposed to be effective.
Their stats seem like they would be terrible for mêlée but then their shooting options seem fairly awful as well. The quads have better guns but they won't be able to use them very effectively unless I waste the unit's mobility by having them stay still. At the moment I feel like I should just give everyone a crappy shotgun and that's it.
I am only likely to be playing casual games but I would prefer if they were not completely useless. My main army is Bladed Cog and I don't really want to stick these guys in a different detachment if I can help it.
Not to be a broken record, but I think hive cult can be good with flamers. Shoot. Get assaulted. Survive, fall back, flame again. I have not tested it out in practice though.
Bilge Rat wrote: Can anyone recommend a decent all-purpose loadout for Atalan Jackals? I have a bunch of models to build but I am still pretty new to 40k and they have so many weapon options that I am struggling to figure out how they are supposed to be effective.
Their stats seem like they would be terrible for mêlée but then their shooting options seem fairly awful as well. The quads have better guns but they won't be able to use them very effectively unless I waste the unit's mobility by having them stay still. At the moment I feel like I should just give everyone a crappy shotgun and that's it.
I am only likely to be playing casual games but I would prefer if they were not completely useless. My main army is Bladed Cog and I don't really want to stick these guys in a different detachment if I can help it.
Thanks for any advice!
I have magnetized the arms with the weapons, as well as the part attaching the weapon to the wolf quad. It’s pretty simple to do
Ere we go ere we go ere we go
Corona Givin’ Umies Da good ol Krulpin they deserve huh huh
Badablack wrote:As far as shooty lists, despite Hivecult seemingly best suited for it I’d have to say their benefits are kind of outweighed by what you get from Rusted Claw or Bladed Cog. Maybe a detachment of Hivecult sitting in the back buffing a bunch of Laser Ridgerunners, but the bulk should be something else for survivability.
I think it depends on what you are trying to do. Hivecult basically wants to castle up and shell the opposition to the ground with accurate firepower, while Rusted Claw is more about mid-field dominance and Bladed Cog is more a combined arms force that wants a mix of melee and shooting to take full advantage of their toolkit. I think the main issue you will probably have with Hivecult is that they basically want to be run pure or with an AM detachment to lend more firepower (tank commanders and artillery). They don't really play well with the other cults, since they are so specific in what they want to do there generally isn't going to be enough points left over to give their ally the tools they require.
Also speaking of Bladed Cog, I have had very good experiences so far with an Abominant under their creed. The Bladed Cog relic is phenomenal on him. I had one "learning" game with some new players where he was the only thing left at the end of the game and he survived 3 turns of their entire army pummeling him with small arms fire between the 3++, bestial vigor, and regeneration. Overthrow the Oppressors also pairs nicely with his aura on Hammerant squads, to make exploding hits also grant another to-hit roll.
Bilge Rat wrote:Can anyone recommend a decent all-purpose loadout for Atalan Jackals? I have a bunch of models to build but I am still pretty new to 40k and they have so many weapon options that I am struggling to figure out how they are supposed to be effective.
So far I've only played with full shotgun squads (planning on getting some grenade launchers to add in eventually, wanted to keep them cheap for the first few squads), but I think 2x autopistol + cult knife squads might have some interesting potential as skirmishers (can shoot, charge, and still shoot if they end up bogged down). The main thing to keep in mind with Jackals is that their primary job is to be a (relatively) durable on-table presence and draw fire away from more important things (point per point they are one of the most durable things in the army with their -1 to hit, T4, and wounds), Offensively their main job is chaff clearing for assault squads, which from my experience they do fairly well with support from their Alphus. The extended range on her aura for them is really helpful in making the most out of their limited amount of shots.
They also make for a very nice bomb with Demolition Charges if you have something you really need gone, though such usage is very CP hungry.
For the Wolfquad, I'd suggest the Heavy Stubber + shotgun for squads carrying demolition charges (1x wolfquad with heavy stubber is cheaper per wound than 2x bikes, so you can use it to tank wounds for the explosive carriers) and the Incinerator for chaff-clearing squads. The Mining Laser is nice for Rusted Claw but less appealing for the other creeds due to its single-shot nature (Alphus helps a bit, but Rusted Claw benefits even more). Note that the heavy weapons and related ammo stowage fit snuggly in place without glue, so you can swap them out to your heart's content without needing magnets.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/08 03:12:36
I'm trying to cut down on the number of models I have to paint since I enjoy spending time on a few models more than painting larger groups (especially when they're as detailed as the Acolyte and Neophyte models)
I know that GSC is typically known as a horde army but I've been wondering if there's a viable (or at least not terrible) cutting down on the model count by using things like Aberrants, Atalans (these especially appeal to me), Goliaths and Ridgerunners.
So, any advice on how to pull this off?
If it helps, what I have built and painted so far is:
10x Acolytes/Metamorphs (I'm leaning towards making them Metamorphs with twin Talons)
10x Neophytes (probably going to be a shotgun posse for a Kelermorph)
MCStanden wrote: I'm trying to cut down on the number of models I have to paint since I enjoy spending time on a few models more than painting larger groups (especially when they're as detailed as the Acolyte and Neophyte models)
I know that GSC is typically known as a horde army but I've been wondering if there's a viable (or at least not terrible) cutting down on the model count by using things like Aberrants, Atalans (these especially appeal to me), Goliaths and Ridgerunners.
So, any advice on how to pull this off?
If it helps, what I have built and painted so far is:
10x Acolytes/Metamorphs (I'm leaning towards making them Metamorphs with twin Talons)
10x Neophytes (probably going to be a shotgun posse for a Kelermorph)
I really like 10 Neos in a truck with 2x mining laser and 2x GL. I often play 2 of these with an Alphus it's a nice little mobile firebase.
MCStanden wrote: I'm trying to cut down on the number of models I have to paint since I enjoy spending time on a few models more than painting larger groups (especially when they're as detailed as the Acolyte and Neophyte models)
I know that GSC is typically known as a horde army but I've been wondering if there's a viable (or at least not terrible) cutting down on the model count by using things like Aberrants, Atalans (these especially appeal to me), Goliaths and Ridgerunners.
So, any advice on how to pull this off?
If it helps, what I have built and painted so far is:
10x Acolytes/Metamorphs (I'm leaning towards making them Metamorphs with twin Talons)
10x Neophytes (probably going to be a shotgun posse for a Kelermorph)
I really like 10 Neos in a truck with 2x mining laser and 2x GL. I often play 2 of these with an Alphus it's a nice little mobile firebase.
Is the Alphus just for buffing the Trucks' Autocannons and Heavy Stubber? I didn't think the aura affected units in transports.
Is the Alphus just for buffing the Trucks' Autocannons and Heavy Stubber? I didn't think the aura affected units in transports.
In the Goliath truck entry under "Open Topped" it states that any restrictions or modifiers that apply to the truck also apply to the crew it's transporting.
Is the Alphus just for buffing the Trucks' Autocannons and Heavy Stubber? I didn't think the aura affected units in transports.
In the Goliath truck entry under "Open Topped" it states that any restrictions or modifiers that apply to the truck also apply to the crew it's transporting.
From the BRBFAQ:
“Q: If a transport with the Open-topped ability (e.g. a Trukk) is within range of an aura ability, are units that are embarked upon that transport affected by that ability? A: No.”
A unit of Neophytes with double mining lasers Perfect Ambushing next to a Kelermorph and a Jackal Alphus can kick out 4 laser shots that hit on 3's. Rather situational, but all the parts are units you are likely taking in the first place, and there is very little that can be done to prevent it.
A 20 man with shotguns, two heavy stubbers and two grenade launchers Perfect Ambushing and Lying in Wait + the character's gets 62 (15 shotguns + 2 heavy stubbers) S4 shots and 4 d6 S3 shots, all hitting on 3's.
Flamer Hybrids are probably better, but it is an idea worth kicking around.
Niiai wrote: What is the codex wording? Spesific wording trumps general statements.
From the truck entry: "Open -Topped: Models embarked on this model can attack in their Shooting phase. Measure the range and draw line of sight from any point on this model. When they do so, any restrictions or modifiers that apply to this model also apply to its passengers; for example, the passengers cannot shoot if this model has Fallen Back in the same turn, cannot shoot (except with Pistols) if this model is within 1" of an enemy unit, and so on."
Niiai wrote: What is the codex wording? Spesific wording trumps general statements.
From the truck entry: "Open -Topped: Models embarked on this model can attack in their Shooting phase. Measure the range and draw line of sight from any point on this model. When they do so, any restrictions or modifiers that apply to this model also apply to its passengers; for example, the passengers cannot shoot if this model has Fallen Back in the same turn, cannot shoot (except with Pistols) if this model is within 1" of an enemy unit, and so on."
That's exactly what the Ork Trukk's version of the rule says too, and yet the FAQ specifically calls out Trukks when it says that passengers aren't affected. Is this just an example of GW giving us confusing and contradictory rules?
Don't get me wrong, I'd love it if auras affected passengers, but it looks to me that that just isn't the case.
To be fair, there is some room for debate on this one.
A unit inside a transport is not directly affected by an aura. Fair enough, as it's not technically on the table. So say you had the ever common re-roll 1's aura, a unit in a transport would not get it.
However a unit in a transport does inherit any Restrictions or Modifiers applied to the transport. That's kinda interesting.
Restrictions is clear enough. Things that would prevent someone from shooting, like advancing and firing a non-assault weapon. These will also affect the passengers.
Modifiers refers to effects that add +1 or -1 to a roll.
So I see a possible argument, that if you have an aura that applies a positive (or negative) Modifier to a transport (e.g. +1 to its hit rolls), then this would be inherited by the unit inside. The unit isn't directly affected by the aura, but it does inherit modifiers.
It's something that could be debated back and forth in YMDC I imagine.
So I see a possible argument, that if you have an aura that applies a positive (or negative) Modifier to a transport (e.g. +1 to its hit rolls), then this would be inherited by the unit inside. The unit isn't directly affected by the aura, but it does inherit modifiers.
It's something that could be debated back and forth in YMDC I imagine.
Yep. Modifiers apply. Like with orks if you have freeboota trukk and freeboota unit and activate the clan trait(+1 to hit for freeboota units within 24" that destroyed enemy unit that phase) the trukk would get +1 to hit and as it's modifier also applies to the contents inside.
So if GSC open topped vehicle gets +1 to hit from any source the riders inside gets it as well. No strategems or non-modifier aura effects though.
18 CP -1CP Field commander
-1CP Broodsurge detachment
-1CP extra relic
-1CP broodcoven
+d3 CP inscrutable cunning
Strategy:
Blue units deploy with blieps and 3 big acolyte units can be put in reserves with stratagem. The rest is put in normal reserves/cult ambush.
First turn: removing bubble wrap with mortars. Could summon an extra shooty unit if needed. If I get first turn and the opponent lacks long distance shooting I could put the patriarch back into the shadows. Probably going to do this second turn though..
Second turn: hand flamer/demolition unit deploys with lying in wait and start flaming/trowing demolition bombs closeby. Big broodsurge blob deploys around characters and charge with +1 and reroll charge. Patriarch get's +3 leadership and uses mental onslaught on a juicy target. One unit uses perfect ambush.
A few things I noticed:
- A lot of players wrote in this topic: "You need 'Cult of the four armed emperor' because you need +1 charge". I would always pick rusted claw because the +1 save is just too good. A smart opponent knows how to bubble wrap his army and the broodsurge acolyte combo cannot assault all the juicy stuff and need to take a hit at some time.
- I like the 130 points summoning option. It's the perfect amount of points for all kind of different units. 10 acolytes with 4 rock saws, 10 metamorphs with icon, 20 neophytes with shooty things. 5 power pick abberants etc..
- In a tournament setting, I need a chess clock. I can play fast but my opponent's take up a lot of time with 98 acolytes in their face. I expect a lot of stuff to die and still win the objectives.
- I also like the patriarchs. Even when most of my acolytes die I still got 3 very fast patriarch's. Put units close by and 'unquestionable loyalty' keeps them rather save.
- A lot of players wrote in this topic: "You need 'Cult of the four armed emperor' because you need +1 charge". I would always pick rusted claw because the +1 save is just too good. A smart opponent knows how to bubble wrap his army and the broodsurge acolyte combo cannot assault all the juicy stuff and need to take a hit at some time.
Then you want to charge the bubble wrap - or if that seems like a bad idea, just don't attempt it that turn. Whatever the case, you need to be able to have some sort of consistency with charging out of DS. 60 Acolytes deploying within 9" of your opponents entire force, with no bonus to charge, is just basically throwing away points, +1 to save isn't changing that. Plus haven't you invested mortars into like 7 different squads to help deal with the screens? This does not seem like a wise call at all.
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
an 8" re-rolling charge is ~66% chance
a 7" re-rolling charge is ~82% chance
Failing charges costs you games, and in those situations a 4+ instead of a 5+ is, imo, unlikely to save you.
You indeed often can't hit the juicy stuff turn 2 but that's why most list use 2 punches.
Turn 2 some stuff comes down to charge and clear screens.
T3 the rest comes to use the space created the previous turn.
Trying something a little different this time around. More mobility, less all-in on ambushing. There's a big turn 1 presence on the field with several blobs: (1)Neophytes/Truck with Alphus (Warlord) giving to hit bonus, (2) Sentinel Power Lifters, (3)single Jackal unit with Demo charges, (4) Basilisks, Mortars. Turn 2 looks like 40 Brood Brothers with Tempestor to clear screens along with whatever from turn 1 is left (and/or required for the job). Turn 3 the Acolyte rock-saw squads +Iconward, +1 Clamavus, +Primus come down either all in one big group or split up a bit.
I like the Brood Brother/Tempestor for screen-clearing because it requires 0 CP and can more easily show up and be effective given their 12" rapid fire range. Once my opponent's know they can't leave 7" gaps in their lines because of Lying In Wait it's harder to make good use of units like Acolyte Flamer bombs. The Brood Bros. are also flexible in that they can be deployed for screening instead of screen-clearing if required. These guys can hold objectives like a boss with a Patriarch keeping them fearless. Basilisks are very flexible and help knock the last few wounds off of vehicles or concentrate fire on a stubborn unit in cover.
This list still has a hard hitting ambush but is also very flexible and fairly fast. I could split it up into two Battalions for C4AE on the Acolytes though that would require buying another HQ slot...probably swap out the Powerlifters for a Patriarch. Patriarch would do well with the bigger aura WLT to keep all these huge squads from losing models to morale checks.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/15 13:34:19
6800 points 
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