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While we are on the subject of Pauper Princes, here is a question I came up with while thinking about the cult stratagem:
If a Pauper Princes character is embarked in a cult vehicle, and the vehicle is destroyed by an enemy attack, and you roll a 1 while disembarking, causing the character to be killed, does the stratagem trigger? In other words, does the character count as being killed by the attack that destroyed the vehicle? Or is it considered to just be a casualty of the emergency disembarkation procedure? I can see the argument going either way.
From a fluff perspective, it makes perfect sense that the cult troops would get “triggered” by the death of their Magus in a fiery wreck, and there isn’t really any argument that the Character wouldn’t have died “but for” the attack on the vehicle they were riding on. From a rules mechanics/fairness perspective, I can definitely see an objection because the controlling player gets to choose which models die. Thus, you could theoretically load up Goliaths with something nasty like Aberrants or Demo charge acolytes and a single cheap character such as a Locus, and then if the opponent pops the vehicle before the vehicle reaches its target, you let any 1s kill the character, triggering the stratagem.
Do Clamavus's stack? I'm looking at running a Battalion and a Vanguard, both the same cult and both containing a Clamavus. What I want out of running two of them is flexibility - one can drop with the saw hybrids, the other with the Patriarch, and that gives me more freedom for situations where I want to Mental Onslaught or charge the Patriarch at a unit that isn't close to the target I want to charge the saw hybrids at. In situations where the Patriarch and the saw hybrids are going after the same target, or targets that are close to each other, it won't be hard to get both Clamavus's in range for both units.
So, do they stack? Could you run three detachments for +3 ld or +3 charge? Or am I missing something basic that prevents this?
Just a quick update, folks. I have run the math and it looks to me like the heavy rock drill unit I discussed in my post this weekend (6 drills/15 total acolytes in a Pauper Princes detachment) could plausibly take out a Castellan in a single round of attacks, provided it has both Might from Beyond cast on it and another buff, such as either a Primus or the Broodsurge stratagem. Even without the Primus/Broodsurge stratagem, just the drills deal an average of 22.5 wounds to the Castellan after saves. That is comparable to an 8 saw unit with the same buffs, but costs about 14 points less and has a smaller footprint for deepstriking, etc.
I feel like the main reason folks aren't really seriously considering the drills at this point is that they don't have the models. I understand, as the rock saw has been the go-to choice ever since the 7th edition codex came out, so I assume most people have lots of saws, but few drills unless they just built one for kicks (I mean, just witness the number of comments in this thread and the old one about how to convert more saws).
Thus, I have decided to build the driller unit and go forth and test it out. I had plenty of drill bits (heh) left over from my other acolyte kits,and thus was able to build a full 6 man unit with the addition of just a single extra box for all the legs. I will let you know how it goes!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/26 00:59:27
Asmodas wrote: Thus, I have decided to build the driller unit and go forth and test it out. I had plenty of drill bits (heh) left over from my other acolyte kits,and thus was able to build a full 6 man unit with the addition of just a single extra box for all the legs. I will let you know how it goes!
Drill's could be a better weapon at average, but I think I prefer the solid amount of damage from the saw's. I also believe that a single castellan can be equipped with a 2+ save and then the stil got a 5+save against a drill. And why would you bring a 6 rock drill unit? If you go to the trouble of 'perfect ambushing' an anti-knight unit, in combination with a primus + might from beyond + broodsurge to wound stratagem then you need as much heavy weapons as possible. So go big and bring a 20 acolyte unit with 8 heavy weapons. I tested 6 drills against a knight with 2+ save under the right circumstances (primus, broodsurge stratagem etc..) but without the might from beyond (denied). I rolled for each weapon separately and ended up failing to wound with 3 weapons at all so no extra mortal wounds from them. It's hard to calculate the math with drill's because the results are much more 'whacky' against all different kind of enemy units.
Also, doing the math against a single knight in a vacuum is not the same as, for example a custodes jetbike unit or a unit abberrants with feel no pain. I guess you got to roll for each drill separately and see what happens. Custodes jetbikes could be in more trouble if the drills do well from the start (mortal wounds) but abberants with 2 wounds each could be better handled with rock saws, I think. Might be wrong... considering the feel no pain factor.
Could be that drills are actually more interesting as a single model in regular acolyte units. Just to see if that single drill goes crazy with mortal wounds and (in combination with rending attacks) brings that lone 'wave serpent' down, for example.
Asmodas wrote: Thus, I have decided to build the driller unit and go forth and test it out. I had plenty of drill bits (heh) left over from my other acolyte kits,and thus was able to build a full 6 man unit with the addition of just a single extra box for all the legs. I will let you know how it goes!
Drill's could be a better weapon at average, but I think I prefer the solid amount of damage from the saw's. I also believe that a single castellan can be equipped with a 2+ save and then the stil got a 5+save against a drill. And why would you bring a 6 rock drill unit? If you go to the trouble of 'perfect ambushing' an anti-knight unit, in combination with a primus + might from beyond + broodsurge to wound stratagem then you need as much heavy weapons as possible. So go big and bring a 20 acolyte unit with 8 heavy weapons. I tested 6 drills against a knight with 2+ save under the right circumstances (primus, broodsurge stratagem etc..) but without the might from beyond (denied). I rolled for each weapon separately and ended up failing to wound with 3 weapons at all so no extra mortal wounds from them. It's hard to calculate the math with drill's because the results are much more 'whacky' against all different kind of enemy units.
Also, doing the math against a single knight in a vacuum is not the same as, for example a custodes jetbike unit or a unit abberrants with feel no pain. I guess you got to roll for each drill separately and see what happens. Custodes jetbikes could be in more trouble if the drills do well from the start (mortal wounds) but abberants with 2 wounds each could be better handled with rock saws, I think. Might be wrong... considering the feel no pain factor.
Could be that drills are actually more interesting as a single model in regular acolyte units. Just to see if that single drill goes crazy with mortal wounds and (in combination with rending attacks) brings that lone 'wave serpent' down, for example.
I hear you, and I think the possibility of whiffing with one or more drills is why you really only want to use them in a Pauper Princes detachment. That brings them from a 66% chance to hit to an 88% hit percentage. That makes each drill attack much more reliable, greatly increasing the chance that you get at least one wound per drill. I very much appreciate your response, but will need to correct you on one thing: drills are way better than saws against Aberrants due to the fact that the Bestial Vigor rule always reduces the damage taken by 1. Thus, the saw can never do more than 1 damage per attack, whereas the drill's mortal wounds ability bypasses that protection and just starts laying on mortal wounds.
I was not aware that a Castellan could get a 2+. Is that a relic that does that? I know there is a 5++ in combat relic, but I am unfamiliar with that one.
So each driller gets 3 attacks with Might, generating 2.66 hits. That converts into 66% wounds with +1 S from might, or 1.755 wounds per driller. Even with a 2+ save (and I was not aware a Castellan could get a 2+ - I thought it was typically a 3+), each driller is putting out 1.169 wounds. If you boost it further with the broodsurge stratagem, you get 2.22 wounds per driller, converting into 1.47 wounds per driller after saves, on average. That would still be 8.82 wounds after saves on the Knight, with a very good chance of triggering the mortal wounds jackpot on each driller since the expected number of wounds per driller is well above 1.0. At that point each driller's jackpot round adds up to approximately 10.68 additional mortal wounds. That would still be 19.5 unsaved wounds on the Knight, even with the 2+ save, and we are also not considering any of the wounds from the rest of the squad (and if we are using the broodsurge stratagem, they are putting out rends on a 5+ to wound). The results are obviously not as good as against the 3+ save Knight (who saves 50% less wounds in this scenario), but still pretty formidable. If you bump the unit to 8 models, as you suggest, the average number of wounds goes to 24.14 after saves
Also, please note that I am not necessarily saying you should use Drillers instead of Saws. I, personally, will be using both a large saw unit and the 6 drill unit outlined above.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/26 14:42:22
How are people approaching our worst matchups? The horde killers of the world, like Deathwatch? I am also anticipating open topped flying transports being a real pain.
Asmodas wrote: Thus, I have decided to build the driller unit and go forth and test it out. I had plenty of drill bits (heh) left over from my other acolyte kits,and thus was able to build a full 6 man unit with the addition of just a single extra box for all the legs. I will let you know how it goes!
Drill's could be a better weapon at average, but I think I prefer the solid amount of damage from the saw's. I also believe that a single castellan can be equipped with a 2+ save and then the stil got a 5+save against a drill. And why would you bring a 6 rock drill unit? If you go to the trouble of 'perfect ambushing' an anti-knight unit, in combination with a primus + might from beyond + broodsurge to wound stratagem then you need as much heavy weapons as possible. So go big and bring a 20 acolyte unit with 8 heavy weapons. I tested 6 drills against a knight with 2+ save under the right circumstances (primus, broodsurge stratagem etc..) but without the might from beyond (denied). I rolled for each weapon separately and ended up failing to wound with 3 weapons at all so no extra mortal wounds from them. It's hard to calculate the math with drill's because the results are much more 'whacky' against all different kind of enemy units.
Also, doing the math against a single knight in a vacuum is not the same as, for example a custodes jetbike unit or a unit abberrants with feel no pain. I guess you got to roll for each drill separately and see what happens. Custodes jetbikes could be in more trouble if the drills do well from the start (mortal wounds) but abberants with 2 wounds each could be better handled with rock saws, I think. Might be wrong... considering the feel no pain factor.
Could be that drills are actually more interesting as a single model in regular acolyte units. Just to see if that single drill goes crazy with mortal wounds and (in combination with rending attacks) brings that lone 'wave serpent' down, for example.
I hear you, and I think the possibility of whiffing with one or more drills is why you really only want to use them in a Pauper Princes detachment. That brings them from a 66% chance to hit to an 88% hit percentage. That makes each drill attack much more reliable, greatly increasing the chance that you get at least one wound per drill. I very much appreciate your response, but will need to correct you on one thing: drills are way better than saws against Aberrants due to the fact that the Bestial Vigor rule always reduces the damage taken by 1. Thus, the saw can never do more than 1 damage per attack, whereas the drill's mortal wounds ability bypasses that protection and just starts laying on mortal wounds.
I was not aware that a Castellan could get a 2+. Is that a relic that does that? I know there is a 5++ in combat relic, but I am unfamiliar with that one.
So each driller gets 3 attacks with Might, generating 2.66 hits. That converts into 66% wounds with +1 S from might, or 1.755 wounds per driller. Even with a 2+ save (and I was not aware a Castellan could get a 2+ - I thought it was typically a 3+), each driller is putting out 1.169 wounds. If you boost it further with the broodsurge stratagem, you get 2.22 wounds per driller, converting into 1.47 wounds per driller after saves, on average. That would still be 8.82 wounds after saves on the Knight, with a very good chance of triggering the mortal wounds jackpot on each driller since the expected number of wounds per driller is well above 1.0. At that point each driller's jackpot round adds up to approximately 10.68 additional mortal wounds. That would still be 19.5 unsaved wounds on the Knight, even with the 2+ save, and we are also not considering any of the wounds from the rest of the squad (and if we are using the broodsurge stratagem, they are putting out rends on a 5+ to wound). The results are obviously not as good as against the 3+ save Knight (who saves 50% less wounds in this scenario), but still pretty formidable. If you bump the unit to 8 models, as you suggest, the average number of wounds goes to 24.14 after saves
Also, please note that I am not necessarily saying you should use Drillers instead of Saws. I, personally, will be using both a large saw unit and the 6 drill unit outlined above.
I just don't feel the re-roll from PP is worth it. Your base hitting on 3's. You'll always get an Icon for re-rolling 1's so PP lets you re-roll 2's. And if your in range of a Primus it doesn't actually do anything at all since your hitting on 2's re-rolling 1's either way.
Asmodas wrote: Thus, I have decided to build the driller unit and go forth and test it out. I had plenty of drill bits (heh) left over from my other acolyte kits,and thus was able to build a full 6 man unit with the addition of just a single extra box for all the legs. I will let you know how it goes!
Drill's could be a better weapon at average, but I think I prefer the solid amount of damage from the saw's. I also believe that a single castellan can be equipped with a 2+ save and then the stil got a 5+save against a drill. And why would you bring a 6 rock drill unit? If you go to the trouble of 'perfect ambushing' an anti-knight unit, in combination with a primus + might from beyond + broodsurge to wound stratagem then you need as much heavy weapons as possible. So go big and bring a 20 acolyte unit with 8 heavy weapons. I tested 6 drills against a knight with 2+ save under the right circumstances (primus, broodsurge stratagem etc..) but without the might from beyond (denied). I rolled for each weapon separately and ended up failing to wound with 3 weapons at all so no extra mortal wounds from them. It's hard to calculate the math with drill's because the results are much more 'whacky' against all different kind of enemy units.
Also, doing the math against a single knight in a vacuum is not the same as, for example a custodes jetbike unit or a unit abberrants with feel no pain. I guess you got to roll for each drill separately and see what happens. Custodes jetbikes could be in more trouble if the drills do well from the start (mortal wounds) but abberants with 2 wounds each could be better handled with rock saws, I think. Might be wrong... considering the feel no pain factor.
Could be that drills are actually more interesting as a single model in regular acolyte units. Just to see if that single drill goes crazy with mortal wounds and (in combination with rending attacks) brings that lone 'wave serpent' down, for example.
I hear you, and I think the possibility of whiffing with one or more drills is why you really only want to use them in a Pauper Princes detachment. That brings them from a 66% chance to hit to an 88% hit percentage. That makes each drill attack much more reliable, greatly increasing the chance that you get at least one wound per drill. I very much appreciate your response, but will need to correct you on one thing: drills are way better than saws against Aberrants due to the fact that the Bestial Vigor rule always reduces the damage taken by 1. Thus, the saw can never do more than 1 damage per attack, whereas the drill's mortal wounds ability bypasses that protection and just starts laying on mortal wounds.
I was not aware that a Castellan could get a 2+. Is that a relic that does that? I know there is a 5++ in combat relic, but I am unfamiliar with that one.
So each driller gets 3 attacks with Might, generating 2.66 hits. That converts into 66% wounds with +1 S from might, or 1.755 wounds per driller. Even with a 2+ save (and I was not aware a Castellan could get a 2+ - I thought it was typically a 3+), each driller is putting out 1.169 wounds. If you boost it further with the broodsurge stratagem, you get 2.22 wounds per driller, converting into 1.47 wounds per driller after saves, on average. That would still be 8.82 wounds after saves on the Knight, with a very good chance of triggering the mortal wounds jackpot on each driller since the expected number of wounds per driller is well above 1.0. At that point each driller's jackpot round adds up to approximately 10.68 additional mortal wounds. That would still be 19.5 unsaved wounds on the Knight, even with the 2+ save, and we are also not considering any of the wounds from the rest of the squad (and if we are using the broodsurge stratagem, they are putting out rends on a 5+ to wound). The results are obviously not as good as against the 3+ save Knight (who saves 50% less wounds in this scenario), but still pretty formidable. If you bump the unit to 8 models, as you suggest, the average number of wounds goes to 24.14 after saves
Also, please note that I am not necessarily saying you should use Drillers instead of Saws. I, personally, will be using both a large saw unit and the 6 drill unit outlined above.
I just don't feel the re-roll from PP is worth it. Your base hitting on 3's. You'll always get an Icon for re-rolling 1's so PP lets you re-roll 2's. And if your in range of a Primus it doesn't actually do anything at all since your hitting on 2's re-rolling 1's either way.
That all makes sense, although it should be noted that you can save 10 points per unit with PP because you don't need icons (and it gives the rerolls to units like neophytes, where you probably wouldn't bother with an icon in the first place).
Like I said, I am going to experiment with it and see how it works. There are other good things about PP besides the re-roll, such as the warlord trait and the stratagem (the relic is kind of meh, but there are other good options so no biggy). I will give it a go, and if it doesn't work out I will probably just go back to my Bladed Cog list, which has been working great for me. I will let you guys know either way.
Asmodas wrote: Thus, I have decided to build the driller unit and go forth and test it out. I had plenty of drill bits (heh) left over from my other acolyte kits,and thus was able to build a full 6 man unit with the addition of just a single extra box for all the legs. I will let you know how it goes!
Drill's could be a better weapon at average, but I think I prefer the solid amount of damage from the saw's. I also believe that a single castellan can be equipped with a 2+ save and then the stil got a 5+save against a drill. And why would you bring a 6 rock drill unit? If you go to the trouble of 'perfect ambushing' an anti-knight unit, in combination with a primus + might from beyond + broodsurge to wound stratagem then you need as much heavy weapons as possible. So go big and bring a 20 acolyte unit with 8 heavy weapons. I tested 6 drills against a knight with 2+ save under the right circumstances (primus, broodsurge stratagem etc..) but without the might from beyond (denied). I rolled for each weapon separately and ended up failing to wound with 3 weapons at all so no extra mortal wounds from them. It's hard to calculate the math with drill's because the results are much more 'whacky' against all different kind of enemy units.
Also, doing the math against a single knight in a vacuum is not the same as, for example a custodes jetbike unit or a unit abberrants with feel no pain. I guess you got to roll for each drill separately and see what happens. Custodes jetbikes could be in more trouble if the drills do well from the start (mortal wounds) but abberants with 2 wounds each could be better handled with rock saws, I think. Might be wrong... considering the feel no pain factor.
Could be that drills are actually more interesting as a single model in regular acolyte units. Just to see if that single drill goes crazy with mortal wounds and (in combination with rending attacks) brings that lone 'wave serpent' down, for example.
I hear you, and I think the possibility of whiffing with one or more drills is why you really only want to use them in a Pauper Princes detachment. That brings them from a 66% chance to hit to an 88% hit percentage. That makes each drill attack much more reliable, greatly increasing the chance that you get at least one wound per drill.
Rather pick a primus + icon for that, but my army focusses on a big acolyte units with character support group (patriarch + clamavus + primus + iconward).
Asmodas wrote: I very much appreciate your response, but will need to correct you on one thing: drills are way better than saws against Aberrants due to the fact that the Bestial Vigor rule always reduces the damage taken by 1. Thus, the saw can never do more than 1 damage per attack, whereas the drill's mortal wounds ability bypasses that protection and just starts laying on mortal wounds.
Ah thats right, forgot about that one... Just wanted to make the point that you get wacky results with the drill, specifically with multi wound models. Feel no pain is also a whacky effect. A drill attack countered with feel no pain doesn't activate the mortal wounds.
Asmodas wrote: I was not aware that a Castellan could get a 2+. Is that a relic that does that? I know there is a 5++ in combat relic, but I am unfamiliar with that one.
Armor of the sainted ion (relic). I know it is possible but not if it is likely.. Not a knight player.. Could also be 'sanctuary' general 5+ inv save. So also a 5+ save against drills and rock saws.
Asmodas wrote: So each driller gets 3 attacks with Might, generating 2.66 hits. That converts into 66% wounds with +1 S from might, or 1.755 wounds per driller. Even with a 2+ save (and I was not aware a Castellan could get a 2+ - I thought it was typically a 3+), each driller is putting out 1.169 wounds. If you boost it further with the broodsurge stratagem, you get 2.22 wounds per driller, converting into 1.47 wounds per driller after saves, on average. That would still be 8.82 wounds after saves on the Knight, with a very good chance of triggering the mortal wounds jackpot on each driller since the expected number of wounds per driller is well above 1.0. At that point each driller's jackpot round adds up to approximately 10.68 additional mortal wounds. That would still be 19.5 unsaved wounds on the Knight, even with the 2+ save, and we are also not considering any of the wounds from the rest of the squad (and if we are using the broodsurge stratagem, they are putting out rends on a 5+ to wound). The results are obviously not as good as against the 3+ save Knight (who saves 50% less wounds in this scenario), but still pretty formidable. If you bump the unit to 8 models, as you suggest, the average number of wounds goes to 24.14 after saves
Also, please note that I am not necessarily saying you should use Drillers instead of Saws. I, personally, will be using both a large saw unit and the 6 drill unit outlined above.
Yep, apart from all the calculations it comes down to this; Rocksaws do a decent amount of damage and drills could get really random effects. It can perform badly or totally destroy a unit.
List is just an example of what Pauper Princes might do well, and might do with some tweaking.
While I do like the Pauper Princes (my first game with the codex involved them), I'm inclined to think that the list you raised would probably run better as Hivecult or Bladed Cog. For Hivecult, Chilling Efficiency has an easier trigger condition to get an army wide +1 to hit for shooting and their creed abilities offer better synergy with mass Neophytes, while Bladed Cog does more for the Abominant/Aberrants (stratagem is great with Chosen One aura and the Abominant very much likes the relic) and their trait is great for the Kelermorph (4+ invul) and Neophyte mining lasers (no heavy penalty).
My own experience with Pauper Princes is that they do a very mean Aberrant spam with an Abominant lugging around the relic and MSU Acolytes to do chaff clearing. Aberrants do not like taking leadership checks which the relic solves handedly while also providing a CP free (but less reliable) version of the Devotion Till Death stratagem.
I concur that the Pauper Princes warlord trait is most excellent for the Patriarch, though the Hivecult and Bladed Cog traits are probably going to offer more for what your list wants to do. Hivecult gives you an always on version of the Kelermorph's aura to further enhance accuracy and the Bladed Cog trait gives you an extra instance of Meticulous Planning with the added benefit of rerolling ALL wound rolls against the target rather than 1's.
babelfish wrote: So, do they stack? Could you run three detachments for +3 ld or +3 charge? Or am I missing something basic that prevents this?
While it was already answered, I just wanted to add page 6 of the Rulebook FAQ says multiple instances of the same ability do not stack unless the ability specifically says it can.
Gordoape wrote:How are people approaching our worst matchups? The horde killers of the world, like Deathwatch? I am also anticipating open topped flying transports being a real pain.
If you have a lot of anti-horde in your meta go mechanized. GSC does mech very well compared to most armies since we have plenty of cheap vehicles to choose from and embarking troops doesn't reduce our firepower much (Goliath is open topped, Chimera has Las-array). Dark Eldar Druhkari and Harlequin vehicles also really do not enjoy facing mass autocannon fire, which Goliaths can provide in abundance.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/26 19:46:28
Asmodas wrote: Thus, I have decided to build the driller unit and go forth and test it out. I had plenty of drill bits (heh) left over from my other acolyte kits,and thus was able to build a full 6 man unit with the addition of just a single extra box for all the legs. I will let you know how it goes!
Drill's could be a better weapon at average, but I think I prefer the solid amount of damage from the saw's. I also believe that a single castellan can be equipped with a 2+ save and then the stil got a 5+save against a drill. And why would you bring a 6 rock drill unit? If you go to the trouble of 'perfect ambushing' an anti-knight unit, in combination with a primus + might from beyond + broodsurge to wound stratagem then you need as much heavy weapons as possible. So go big and bring a 20 acolyte unit with 8 heavy weapons. I tested 6 drills against a knight with 2+ save under the right circumstances (primus, broodsurge stratagem etc..) but without the might from beyond (denied). I rolled for each weapon separately and ended up failing to wound with 3 weapons at all so no extra mortal wounds from them. It's hard to calculate the math with drill's because the results are much more 'whacky' against all different kind of enemy units.
Also, doing the math against a single knight in a vacuum is not the same as, for example a custodes jetbike unit or a unit abberrants with feel no pain. I guess you got to roll for each drill separately and see what happens. Custodes jetbikes could be in more trouble if the drills do well from the start (mortal wounds) but abberants with 2 wounds each could be better handled with rock saws, I think. Might be wrong... considering the feel no pain factor.
Could be that drills are actually more interesting as a single model in regular acolyte units. Just to see if that single drill goes crazy with mortal wounds and (in combination with rending attacks) brings that lone 'wave serpent' down, for example.
I hear you, and I think the possibility of whiffing with one or more drills is why you really only want to use them in a Pauper Princes detachment. That brings them from a 66% chance to hit to an 88% hit percentage. That makes each drill attack much more reliable, greatly increasing the chance that you get at least one wound per drill.
Rather pick a primus + icon for that, but my army focusses on a big acolyte units with character support group (patriarch + clamavus + primus + iconward).
Asmodas wrote: I very much appreciate your response, but will need to correct you on one thing: drills are way better than saws against Aberrants due to the fact that the Bestial Vigor rule always reduces the damage taken by 1. Thus, the saw can never do more than 1 damage per attack, whereas the drill's mortal wounds ability bypasses that protection and just starts laying on mortal wounds.
Ah thats right, forgot about that one... Just wanted to make the point that you get wacky results with the drill, specifically with multi wound models. Feel no pain is also a whacky effect. A drill attack countered with feel no pain doesn't activate the mortal wounds.
Asmodas wrote: I was not aware that a Castellan could get a 2+. Is that a relic that does that? I know there is a 5++ in combat relic, but I am unfamiliar with that one.
Armor of the sainted ion (relic). I know it is possible but not if it is likely.. Not a knight player.. Could also be 'sanctuary' general 5+ inv save. So also a 5+ save against drills and rock saws.
Asmodas wrote: So each driller gets 3 attacks with Might, generating 2.66 hits. That converts into 66% wounds with +1 S from might, or 1.755 wounds per driller. Even with a 2+ save (and I was not aware a Castellan could get a 2+ - I thought it was typically a 3+), each driller is putting out 1.169 wounds. If you boost it further with the broodsurge stratagem, you get 2.22 wounds per driller, converting into 1.47 wounds per driller after saves, on average. That would still be 8.82 wounds after saves on the Knight, with a very good chance of triggering the mortal wounds jackpot on each driller since the expected number of wounds per driller is well above 1.0. At that point each driller's jackpot round adds up to approximately 10.68 additional mortal wounds. That would still be 19.5 unsaved wounds on the Knight, even with the 2+ save, and we are also not considering any of the wounds from the rest of the squad (and if we are using the broodsurge stratagem, they are putting out rends on a 5+ to wound). The results are obviously not as good as against the 3+ save Knight (who saves 50% less wounds in this scenario), but still pretty formidable. If you bump the unit to 8 models, as you suggest, the average number of wounds goes to 24.14 after saves
Also, please note that I am not necessarily saying you should use Drillers instead of Saws. I, personally, will be using both a large saw unit and the 6 drill unit outlined above.
Yep, apart from all the calculations it comes down to this; Rocksaws do a decent amount of damage and drills could get really random effects. It can perform badly or totally destroy a unit.
I was going to post a lengthy response to this, but then I realized that I do not really disagree with anything you're saying here. The drills are swingy, and thus probably not a top tier choice if you are going to a tournament and need something that is extremely reliable, but they are fun and have a very flavorful mechanic with the mortal wound mechanic.
I will just refer back to what I said in my original post on the subject a couple pages back: in my opinion, the drills are being slept on a bit, and Pauper Princes makes them a lot more reliable than they are normally. If you want to play with drills (and I do, since I like the model), Pauper Princes combined with Might from Beyond and/or the Broodsurge strat should give you a pretty good chance of dealing heavy damage to a single target, but they are less good against ordinary multi-wound infantry, where the saws are a bit better due to the flat 2 damage. Tbh, I think they compete less against the saws and more against hammerants due to their similar target profile.
As to Strat_N8's point, I rather like the idea of using the Pauper Prince relic on an Abominant. Hadn't thought of that before. Maybe alongside a biggish (8 or so models) power pick unit?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/26 22:26:13
I don’t think I’d want to take mass open transports, that seems like worse guard. Honesty I don’t see neophytes as a very competitor choice at al?
Editing: but don’t knock it till you’ve tried it I guess. Goliaths strike me as pretty decent on paper but don’t really solve the overwatch problem. I don’t see any shooting or neophyte heavy list being too good to be honest.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/27 00:50:52
Asmodas wrote: I will just refer back to what I said in my original post on the subject a couple pages back: in my opinion, the drills are being slept on a bit, and Pauper Princes makes them a lot more reliable than they are normally. If you want to play with drills (and I do, since I like the model), Pauper Princes combined with Might from Beyond and/or the Broodsurge strat should give you a pretty good chance of dealing heavy damage to a single target, but they are less good against ordinary multi-wound infantry, where the saws are a bit better due to the flat 2 damage. Tbh, I think they compete less against the saws and more against hammerants due to their similar target profile.
Also take into consideration that a knight could be 'questor mechanicus' and the 'benevolence of the machine spirit' gives it a specific 5+ feel no pain against mortal wounds. Knight player could activate it at the start of the first mortal wound.
Asmodas wrote: I will just refer back to what I said in my original post on the subject a couple pages back: in my opinion, the drills are being slept on a bit, and Pauper Princes makes them a lot more reliable than they are normally. If you want to play with drills (and I do, since I like the model), Pauper Princes combined with Might from Beyond and/or the Broodsurge strat should give you a pretty good chance of dealing heavy damage to a single target, but they are less good against ordinary multi-wound infantry, where the saws are a bit better due to the flat 2 damage. Tbh, I think they compete less against the saws and more against hammerants due to their similar target profile.
Also take into consideration that a knight could be 'questor mechanicus' and the 'benevolence of the machine spirit' gives it a specific 5+ feel no pain against mortal wounds. Knight player could activate it at the start of the first mortal wound.
That's good to know as well. To be honest, I don't see a ton of Knights at my local, so I am not all that familiar with their rules. I also exclusively play Xenos armies, and my most common opponents tend to be Eldar, Marines, Guard, Orks and Chaos. Thus, I apologize if I'm ignorant of some of these Knight special abilities and relics - I am certainly not trying to lead anyone down the wrong path by omitting relevant factors. I mostly picked a Knight profile (T8 3+ save) just to illustrate how many wounds you could expect against that Toughness/Save combination with the various weapon options. It could just as easily be a Russ or something (although obviously that target has a lot fewer wounds).
Gordoape wrote: How are people approaching our worst matchups? The horde killers of the world, like Deathwatch? I am also anticipating open topped flying transports being a real pain.
Horde killer armies are not the problem. Horde killer armies that know how to push back GSC-deepstrike with successful bubblewrap are a problem. Let's pick a Ork army with a few big boyz units + grotz + loota-bomb. If the get first turn the can move forward + jump a big conga-line unit grots midfield as a bubblewrap screen. I could put GSC units in reserve or just charge the grotz put then the boyz countercharge next turn and even move forward faster. I could wait another turn but then the orks got the whole (mid)field covered and keeps GSC on the ropes. GSC units really need to lock ork units in close combat (tri- podding?) because if the loota's can fire(twice) the really shred GSC units.
Dunno much about deathwatch, 10 stormbolters with nasty deathwatch upgrades are probably hurtful but as long as GSC can charge them (+ mass hypnosis to deny overwatch) it doesn't matter I think.
Don't think open topped flying transports (drukhari?) are that nasty because they are pretty easy to take down with regular rending claws. As long as you can assault them!
Never shoot drukhari or Harlequin transports if you can assault them instead. Nothing shoots efficient enough to down them, especially venoms at 65pts.
DW were a particular problem in ITC. It's important to discuss which format folks are using since it changed the meta imensly at times.
On that note, the big FAQ changed some things. DW cannot use beta bolter dicipline with special issue ammo. Thats a plus.
On the down side we took some hits. Mental onslaught no longer an auto kill, but we all know or should have knokw this was coming. Also, brood brother squads from our book can no longer be issued orders. Thats a big change to some folks armies. I think Neophytes are flat better now.
Kapitan Montag wrote: Yup also FAQ says explicitly no turn 1 deep strike from "they came from below". So summoning is only source of turn 1 Ds now.
None of the changes affect me really since I played with this in mind. I feel it was pretty obvious where the changes were made. I think over all we came out where we were in comparison to some of the other things that took hits.
Kapitan Montag wrote: Yup also FAQ says explicitly no turn 1 deep strike from "they came from below". So summoning is only source of turn 1 Ds now.
Mind telling me where, I searched the faq for they came from below and it isn't mentioned, so explicitly is already wrong, and tactical reserve rule still says:
For clarity, this matched play rule does not apply to units that are set up on the battlefield during Deployment, but
that use Stratagems, abilities, psychic powers etc. to be removed from the battlefield and set back up during the first or
subsequent battle rounds.
Kapitan Montag wrote: Yup also FAQ says explicitly no turn 1 deep strike from "they came from below". So summoning is only source of turn 1 Ds now.
Mind telling me where, I searched the faq for they came from below and it isn't mentioned, so explicitly is already wrong, and tactical reserve rule still says:
For clarity, this matched play rule does not apply to units that are set up on the battlefield during Deployment, but
that use Stratagems, abilities, psychic powers etc. to be removed from the battlefield and set back up during the first or
subsequent battle rounds.
Page 110 – They Came From Below...Add the following sentence:‘Any units set up underground in this way cannot arrive on the battlefield during the first battle round. You can only use this Stratagem once per battle.
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Right, so the codex now has a rule that makes the army that was all about infiltrating (fluff and rullewise, they were the most notable exception to tactical reserves when it was introduces) and makes them the exception to the exception of tactical reserves so they are the only one that start deployed and can't DS turn 1), while orcs, necrons, thousands sons, etc... can? Or did they hide their exceptions in each separate codex to. If GW thinks I'll ever pay a cent for one of their products they can think again.
Thanks for the replies on tough matchups, those are helpful.
With the orders change, I'm almost more annoyed that I now have to keep track of which of my guardsmen are in which detachment. I think ultimately I'll move towards having them all in the AM detachment and only acolytes as troops in my GSC detachments.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/29 23:34:01
Asmodas wrote:
As to Strat_N8's point, I rather like the idea of using the Pauper Prince relic on an Abominant. Hadn't thought of that before. Maybe alongside a biggish (8 or so models) power pick unit?
The Abominat is really the perfect caddy for it. He is hard to kill and it gives him a more general purpose aura to go with his Aberrant specific one and anti-psyker one. Plus as I said the Aberrants very much appreciate not having to take moral tests.
With Pauper Princes I've mostly used mixed squads with some Hammers and Picks (I only have 2 Hypermorphs, so they tend to be sequestered with all pick units to give a tool against high toughness targets). Hammers really benefit from the rerolls granted by the trait and give the squad more flexibility in targets, but pure hammer squads are very vulnerable to getting tarpitted. Having a few picks mixed in helps keep opposing infantry at bay and gives some ablative wounds.
I prefer Bladed Cog for pure pick squads. The ability to stack +1 hit from the Abominant and +1 attack die from their signature stratagem is quite nice paired with the volume of dice they already throw.
Gordoape wrote:I don’t think I’d want to take mass open transports, that seems like worse guard. Honesty I don’t see neophytes as a very competitor choice at al?
My experience with mech GSC is that it plays more aggressively than mech guard. Barring Hivecult lists tailored for gunline tactics the main purpose of mech is to aggressively get units up the board and pin the opponent in their deployment zone so they can't push back deepstrike as effectively.
Neophyte trucks are your mid-field objective sitters. They generally take the flanks of the armor column and move towards objectives. The center is generally comprised of Acolyte Demotrucks, Rockgrinders (characters and Aberrants can go here), Jackals, and any aggressive AM vehicles you brought (Scout Sentinels, Hellhound-chassis, etc.).
Gordoape wrote:
Editing: but don’t knock it till you’ve tried it I guess. Goliaths strike me as pretty decent on paper but don’t really solve the overwatch problem. I don’t see any shooting or neophyte heavy list being too good to be honest.
The chassis itself is a fairly good overwatch solution. Just charge the Goliath in after unloading cargo. I also tend to issue charges against screens to get my delivery trucks further up the field, since next to no one will stay locked in with said truck and it is fairly resistant to most standard infantry attacks.
A mech list does not mean a shooting-centric list necessarily. Most of my "balanced" (not skewing for Hivecult) mech lists have melee infantry passengers riding along with the vehicles, and Rockgrinders themselves are aggressive melee units.
Thepatriarch wrote:Right, so the codex now has a rule that makes the army that was all about infiltrating (fluff and rullewise, they were the most notable exception to tactical reserves when it was introduces) and makes them the exception to the exception of tactical reserves so they are the only one that start deployed and can't DS turn 1), while orcs, necrons, thousands sons, etc... can?
We're still the only army that can put more than half our points in reserve (between They Came From Below, Tectonic Fragdrill, and Psychic Summons) and the only army with deep strike innately available on all non-vehicle units.
Fluff-wise the nerf makes sense. The stratagem basically represents units near the surface being redeployed into the tunnels. They need time to get to their positions. The fluff for the exceptions basically amounts to teleportation (save maybe the Necron one - haven't had a look at their codex for awhile).
Asmodas wrote:
As to Strat_N8's point, I rather like the idea of using the Pauper Prince relic on an Abominant. Hadn't thought of that before. Maybe alongside a biggish (8 or so models) power pick unit?
The Abominat is really the perfect caddy for it. He is hard to kill and it gives him a more general purpose aura to go with his Aberrant specific one and anti-psyker one. Plus as I said the Aberrants very much appreciate not having to take moral tests.
With Pauper Princes I've mostly used mixed squads with some Hammers and Picks (I only have 2 Hypermorphs, so they tend to be sequestered with all pick units to give a tool against high toughness targets). Hammers really benefit from the rerolls granted by the trait and give the squad more flexibility in targets, but pure hammer squads are very vulnerable to getting tarpitted. Having a few picks mixed in helps keep opposing infantry at bay and gives some ablative wounds.
I prefer Bladed Cog for pure pick squads. The ability to stack +1 hit from the Abominant and +1 attack die from their signature stratagem is quite nice paired with the volume of dice they already throw.
Gordoape wrote:I don’t think I’d want to take mass open transports, that seems like worse guard. Honesty I don’t see neophytes as a very competitor choice at al?
My experience with mech GSC is that it plays more aggressively than mech guard. Barring Hivecult lists tailored for gunline tactics the main purpose of mech is to aggressively get units up the board and pin the opponent in their deployment zone so they can't push back deepstrike as effectively.
Neophyte trucks are your mid-field objective sitters. They generally take the flanks of the armor column and move towards objectives. The center is generally comprised of Acolyte Demotrucks, Rockgrinders (characters and Aberrants can go here), Jackals, and any aggressive AM vehicles you brought (Scout Sentinels, Hellhound-chassis, etc.).
Gordoape wrote:
Editing: but don’t knock it till you’ve tried it I guess. Goliaths strike me as pretty decent on paper but don’t really solve the overwatch problem. I don’t see any shooting or neophyte heavy list being too good to be honest.
The chassis itself is a fairly good overwatch solution. Just charge the Goliath in after unloading cargo. I also tend to issue charges against screens to get my delivery trucks further up the field, since next to no one will stay locked in with said truck and it is fairly resistant to most standard infantry attacks.
A mech list does not mean a shooting-centric list necessarily. Most of my "balanced" (not skewing for Hivecult) mech lists have melee infantry passengers riding along with the vehicles, and Rockgrinders themselves are aggressive melee units.
Thepatriarch wrote:Right, so the codex now has a rule that makes the army that was all about infiltrating (fluff and rullewise, they were the most notable exception to tactical reserves when it was introduces) and makes them the exception to the exception of tactical reserves so they are the only one that start deployed and can't DS turn 1), while orcs, necrons, thousands sons, etc... can?
We're still the only army that can put more than half our points in reserve (between They Came From Below, Tectonic Fragdrill, and Psychic Summons) and the only army with deep strike innately available on all non-vehicle units.
Fluff-wise the nerf makes sense. The stratagem basically represents units near the surface being redeployed into the tunnels. They need time to get to their positions. The fluff for the exceptions basically amounts to teleportation (save maybe the Necron one - haven't had a look at their codex for awhile).
Yeah I guess I'm still somewhat caught on the idea of using hordes to neutralize heavy guns, which GSC does incredibly well. The trucks seem to give a new target for them to shoot at. But I haven't played enough games to say one or the other definitively. The one thing I can say so far is: Even more Acolytes!!
