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Yeah I guess I'm still somewhat caught on the idea of using hordes to neutralize heavy guns, which GSC does incredibly well. The trucks seem to give a new target for them to shoot at. But I haven't played enough games to say one or the other definitively. The one thing I can say so far is: Even more Acolytes!!
It is a bit of a trade off. The best defense I've found from vehicles is the pressure they can put on the foe via threat overload and positional dominance. It is fairly easy for mechanized GSC lists to get themselves (and their cargo) in good positions for an overwhelming offensive turn 2 when the ambushers arrive.
With the castellan perhaps not being as major a meta presence in the foreseeable future, the amount of anti-armor will probably go down a bit from the current over-saturated levels.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/30 01:47:09
So, I read the FAQ, then the thread about all the FAQ's. Overall, I think that it is good for us. We took some hits, but those hits were things we could reasonably see coming. Mental Onslaught was never staying unnerfed. 1st turn deep strikes were going away. I'm honestly only surprised that as many of those survived as actually did-GW clearly does not want 1st turn deep strikes or charges to be part of the game.
<mental onslaught rant>The mental onslaught nerf is the stupidest ruling in a long line of stupid rulings. GW thought process: "Hmmm.....we want to tone down this power because it can generate a lot more damage that we intended. We could make it based on unmodified score, removing the bonus shenanigans that are the cause of the problem. Or maybe we could make it use casters unmodified ld, or targets unmodified, thus leaving it powerful but limiting it. Wait! I know! Lets just haved it fail on a random roll of a 6, no skill, strategy, or counterplay involved. Let's do that because the ants that I have in my skull instead of a brain think random is good! </rant>
So I think the game is going to shift towards double Knight + IG, IG superheavy + screen, and attempts to counter these two builds. Elder and Orks got weakened. We have strong tools against single superheavy builds, in that we all but hard counter them. Losing Mental Onslaught as a way to kill the second superheavy and flyers hurts, but I think we can still pull it off. We have great 2nd turn screen clearing units, strong third turn murder drops, and the ability to pick up units for a 4th turn drop.
I think the counter Knight builds are going to be weak to us. We eat Tau and Guiliman gunlines alive. We might struggle with Chaos, but they struggle with Knights.
I think mass laser infantry builds have potential. I think 16 saw builds have potential. I think there may be a sneaky vehicle build that takes advantage of only losing two to three a turn. I would not be surprised to see GSC heavy armies on final tables.
There should be a rise of Mech and transport. This can be annoying as Eldar and Tau mechs have FLY and with some screening, can be incredibly hard to reach.
Additionally, alot of passive buffs work in Overwatch now, so overwatch is going hurt more if we let it happen.
Deshkar wrote: There should be a rise of Mech and transport. This can be annoying as Eldar and Tau mechs have FLY and with some screening, can be incredibly hard to reach.
Additionally, alot of passive buffs work in Overwatch now, so overwatch is going hurt more if we let it happen.
Those are both good points. The build I am personally most afraid of is DE Venom spam. I splashed into Hive Guard specifically because of them, and still think I'm at a disadvantage.
SHUPPET wrote: Mental Onslaught was one of the dumbest things in current 40k and absolutely needed a nerf.
Mental Onslaught is literally useless now. Out of 4 possible outcomes we only win with a higher score, right after having to cast the power and have it not denied. They shouldn't have applied the same treatment of Death Grip since it only does a repeated interaction of 1 MW and not D3. Just cap it at 6 Mortal Wounds and call it a day (this way it would still serve its purpose, aka snipe or finish of characters/models)
SHUPPET wrote: Mental Onslaught was one of the dumbest things in current 40k and absolutely needed a nerf.
True, but now it's almost useless. Together with the 'psionic blast' GSC got two terrible sucky 'smite' powers. 'Mind control' always was a nice power but now a big shooty knight only needs to put an enemy unit within 1 inch of the knight and it's useless.
Without 'mental onslaught' I just invest in more 'power saws' and screen clearing units.
SHUPPET wrote: Having a second, targetable Smite is never useless. It just isn't super powerful anymore.
My 'prime' Patriarch got the croughling because I really want the 'might from beyond' + 'mass hypnosis' (familiar) to work when my units drop into the game. That patriarch might have the 'psychic stimilus' as a third power (croughling) because it could be really nice to give a GSC unit an advance boost, but thats very situational because if the power doesn't work my unit just advanced and cannot charge. That's why the 'croughling' patriarch needs this, to increase the changes it works.
After that I might let my magus join the group and cast 'mind control' but I might be leaving him on the shelf now and just invest these points into another patriarch with this power. As a second power I would not go for 'mental onslaught' because I would rather cast 'smite' instead.
Even with a third psyker I would rather give them the other powers. Not going to pay for a familiar to make sure I could cast smite + mental onslaught at the same time once in the game. At that point you could just as well get a neurothrope with psychic scream.
Yes, 'Mental onslaught' can target units but even a platoon commander is hard to kill with this power now.
SHUPPET wrote: Mental Onslaught was one of the dumbest things in current 40k and absolutely needed a nerf.
True, but now it's almost useless. Together with the 'psionic blast' GSC got two terrible sucky 'smite' powers. 'Mind control' always was a nice power but now a big shooty knight only needs to put an enemy unit within 1 inch of the knight and it's useless.
Without 'mental onslaught' I just invest in more 'power saws' and screen clearing units.
This counter to Mind Control is not new, Its been a thing since forever.
The Faq just spelled it out for all the people that didn't realise it.
SHUPPET wrote: Mental Onslaught was one of the dumbest things in current 40k and absolutely needed a nerf.
True, but now it's almost useless. Together with the 'psionic blast' GSC got two terrible sucky 'smite' powers. 'Mind control' always was a nice power but now a big shooty knight only needs to put an enemy unit within 1 inch of the knight and it's useless.
Without 'mental onslaught' I just invest in more 'power saws' and screen clearing units.
This counter to Mind Control is not new, Its been a thing since forever.
The Faq just spelled it out for all the people that didn't realise it.
True, but now it's almost useless. Together with the 'psionic blast' GSC got two terrible sucky 'smite' powers.
It still has the subtle distinction of being able to target specific models rather than units, so it still offers some utility against armies that embed unique models in their units (any squad leaders, champions, icons, special/heavy weapons, etc.). Being able to knock out a Reaper Chaincannon from a CSM unit or a Nob in a boys unit can potentially save your squads some trouble and such models tend to have lower leadership than single-model units. Against multi-wound models embedded in squads even one wound is sufficient to force the opponent to allocate wounds to them in the following shooting or assault phases.
I don't think the power was ever intended to be used as a counter to titanic models via an endless damage loop. With the current FAQ changes it is still slightly better than the Harlequin version since it can still be tilted in the caster's favor rather than being a straight roll off.
It's still really good. There is no guarantee to roll that 6. Trust me, I have fished for 6's in the past myself But yea, sometimes they will roll it in one toss and other times it will still devastate a model. It's much more fair now, at least they have a shot.
yeah you may as well say there's "no counterplay" to when you use an AP-3 weapon on an enemy tank and they roll a 6.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Strat_N8 wrote:
It still has the subtle distinction of being able to target specific models rather than units, so it still offers some utility against armies that embed unique models in their units (any squad leaders, champions, icons, special/heavy weapons, etc.). Being able to knock out a Reaper Chaincannon from a CSM unit or a Nob in a boys unit can potentially save your squads some trouble and such models tend to have lower leadership than single-model units. Against multi-wound models embedded in squads even one wound is sufficient to force the opponent to allocate wounds to them in the following shooting or assault phases.
Problem is, no reason to invest in extra LD buffs/debuffs because the power is to unpredictable now. If I bring a third psyker I might give it 'mental onslaught' just to see if the enemy Hell hound (LD 7) simply sucks at trowing 6's, and I got a clamavus (+1 LD) anyway. Problem is that my psykers use the familiar first turn and after that the only can cast a single power each. I got a full close combat GSC army and 'might from beyond' + 'mass hypnosis' always get's used before anything else. So yes, I might still have it and use it in very specific cases but I don't see it happening 99% of the time and that makes it almost useless.
I mostly play 1250 pts games and i had a idea for this kinda list to give some shooting at the first turn and from second turn on striking in units.
Basically Primus and Jackal Alphus buff up Neophytes for hitting on 2s and rerolling 1s, while Mortars try to clean out screening units.
Brood brothers can screen and run around taking objectives.
Second turn onward Acolytes and Abberants will strike in and kill something, while kellermorph annoys characters.
Atalan jackals will come in 3 inches away and hopefully kill something.
Araablane wrote: I mostly play 1250 pts games and i had a idea for this kinda list to give some shooting at the first turn and from second turn on striking in units.
Basically Primus and Jackal Alphus buff up Neophytes for hitting on 2s and rerolling 1s, while Mortars try to clean out screening units.
Brood brothers can screen and run around taking objectives.
Second turn onward Acolytes and Abberants will strike in and kill something, while kellermorph annoys characters.
Atalan jackals will come in 3 inches away and hopefully kill something.
When you talk about Neophytes hitting on 2's, re-rolling 1's are you talking about shooting or close combat?
re-read the Primus. His +1 to hit is for the Fight phase only.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/01 10:03:47
Araablane wrote: I mostly play 1250 pts games and i had a idea for this kinda list to give some shooting at the first turn and from second turn on striking in units.
Basically Primus and Jackal Alphus buff up Neophytes for hitting on 2s and rerolling 1s, while Mortars try to clean out screening units.
Brood brothers can screen and run around taking objectives.
Second turn onward Acolytes and Abberants will strike in and kill something, while kellermorph annoys characters.
Atalan jackals will come in 3 inches away and hopefully kill something.
* Primus only gives +1 to hit in the fight phase so how do you get a 2+ to hit?
* Cult Icon on the neophytes is also reroll 1 in the fight phase, and too expensive for my taste. Use these 30 points to pimp your magus into a patriarch.
* I think you use a lot of CP with the broodsurge detachment for simply having an assault bonus with one unit. Rock saws OR abberants use perfect ambush and the other gains the assault bonus. I would rather get a clamavus + cult of the four armed emperor and use a regular d6 reroll to help that second unit to get in close combat.
* Why the Vial broodsurge Relic? It gives a model a bonus, but only if the iconward is within 3 inch in the fight phase. +1 LD is helpful with no patriarch around put like I said before, switch that magus for a patriarch and you got another great and fast close combat unit and a better relic. +1 strength iconward or a croughling for example.
Also, that +1 LD is only for the same cult so the bladed cog neophytes don't benefit from that.
Can't say that I see a bright future for GS in the light of the faq. Castellan is dead, which means that imperium will shift to three crusaders instead, which is worse for us. Onslaught got nerfed and fliers didn't suffer all that much, so aeldar with 3-6 planes is still going to be an absolute hell, since we have no real way of damaging them. Tau are going to have a surge of popularity, and just overwatch us to death, with the added benefit of onslaught not being able to snipe riptides anymore.
Whenever I talk about meta or how good something is, I'm speaking about the competitive tournament environment. So if I say your favourite unit is trash, I mean it's trash in a list that aims to be at the top tables.
I don't expect a lot of lists to replace a 600pt knight with 1500 points of knights.
I would rather expect 1 Crusader to replace 1 Castellan and just 200 pts of other Guard stuff.
GSC's answer to flyers has been to have ~150 models on the table that they simply can't deal with and now its harder to move block you from getting to the few actual boots on the ground.
A lot of the problems here come from playing ITC instead of actual GW missions so having units to claim objectives is barely needed when the entire game is just about killing gak.
Not being able to remove a Riptide per turn indeed hurts the Tau matchup a lot but there is no denying that MO was completely stupid and could not continue like that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/01 11:26:34
Shogun, im going to be honest... im kinda slowed Version 2, thats legal But here is the question, as i understand i need to have 50% of units and points on the table with the new rules, right?
Same idea as before but relying on units coming from underground and killing most things.
Added broodcoven because i dont see the reason not to, Jackal alphus without anyone to buff seems pointless.
Ordana wrote: I don't expect a lot of lists to replace a 600pt knight with 1500 points of knights.
I would rather expect 1 Crusader to replace 1 Castellan and just 200 pts of other Guard stuff.
I don't think the Castellan is going away. 100 points increase is peanuts to Astra Militarum. A 4++ save is still pretty good on a platform with that kind of firepower/toughness/wounds.
I play:
40K: Daemons, Tau
AoS: Blades of Khorne, Disciples of Tzeentch
Warmachine: Convergence of Cyriss
Infinity: Haqqislam, Tohaa
Malifaux: Bayou
Star Wars Legion: Republic & Separatists
MESBG: Far Harad, Misty Mountains
Ordana wrote: I don't expect a lot of lists to replace a 600pt knight with 1500 points of knights.
I would rather expect 1 Crusader to replace 1 Castellan and just 200 pts of other Guard stuff.
I don't think the Castellan is going away. 100 points increase is peanuts to Astra Militarum. A 4++ save is still pretty good on a platform with that kind of firepower/toughness/wounds.
I agree, there aren't a lot of replacements with the same firepower for 700 points that you can just slot into almost any Imperial Army with a spare detachment slot.
Ordana wrote:
GSC's answer to flyers has been to have ~150 models on the table that they simply can't deal with and now its harder to move block you from getting to the few actual boots on the ground.
True, but that means you need to invest in lot's of infantry and also need a few hard-hitters to get the most out of 'perfect ambush'. So you need big acolyte units and/or abberants.
Ordana wrote:A lot of the problems here come from playing ITC instead of actual GW missions so having units to claim objectives is barely needed when the entire game is just about killing gak.
True, a decent enemy player know's how to bubblewrap and then the GSC player needs to sacrifice units to get to the 'core'. Hard to get a big win in that kind of tournament mission setting. Lots of infantry with close combat is also time consuming.
Araablane wrote:Shogun, im going to be honest... im kinda slowed Version 2, thats legal But here is the question, as i understand i need to have 50% of units and points on the table with the new rules, right?
Same idea as before but relying on units coming from underground and killing most things.
Added broodcoven because i dont see the reason not to, Jackal alphus without anyone to buff seems pointless.
I already don't like to invest in to much characters at 2000p, but at 1250 it is even more 'out of balance' when you field 2 battalions/4 HQ's + the elite characters. I know you want to have the command points to do stuff but at 1250 points it really gets expensive instead of getting more boys(or girls! Lets be politically correct here..we got girl heads now! ). For example; I would rather have another big abberants unit instead of the magus + primus + kellermorph. If you remove these units and take one battalion + battle brother spearhead with platoon commander + 3x mortar teams it gives you more points to invest in more models. Take the +d3 CP stratagem and you got: 3 + 5 +1 + d3 command points. Maybe another small detachment but that depends on the units you got (vanguard or outrider).
Yes, now i see what was wrong in my games, i had too many characters that did not do anything but i like bikers demolition charges but is it worth it if they are hitting on +4s?
I usually used rusted claw with them but i dont see the point in using a detachment for only one tactic.
Otherwise if i take the bikes and 2 rock saws out, i could add in 20 guys with hand flamers making sure i can melt infantry.
Im keeping Kellermorph because i just love it when they melt some character Also, really big thanks for helping, im doing this so i can focus what to paint first.
Those of you who have run Aberants, how many do you find gets the job done? I'm looking to run a saw-hybrid unit and a Aberant unit at 2k, with the goal of having both able to drop into a heavy target such as a knight. I've never ran them before and would like to hear what has worked for everybody.
If so, is it ever worth equipping them with artefacts (e.g. the Sword of the Four-Armed Emperor)?
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
). For example; I would rather have another big abberants unit instead of the magus + primus + kellermorph. If you remove these units and take one battalion + battle brother spearhead with platoon commander + 3x mortar teams it gives you more points to invest in more models. Take the +d3 
