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It just makes ferrying them around from your case/display board to the table faster when deploying. Usually after a movement phase or two mine are off theirs. I currently only have them for 25mm models though, I need to buy some for 32mm models. Just using them to deploy will save you a ton of time. It also helps keep them organized.
wighti wrote:One quick note, you cannot summon BB's with telepathic summons. Only <cult> infantry or biker units.
Ah yea thats right, thanks! Just need to reserve another 10 points and go for the neophytes.
Gordoape wrote: Have to admit I don't totally understand how movement trays work. Isn't it impossible to get ideal positioning when you use them?
Red Corsair wrote:It just makes ferrying them around from your case/display board to the table faster when deploying. Usually after a movement phase or two mine are off theirs. I currently only have them for 25mm models though, I need to buy some for 32mm models. Just using them to deploy will save you a ton of time. It also helps keep them organized.
I just use flat thin boards with a pin as a handle. Indeed, easy to drop them down on the field and take them off (return to the shadows). I'am going to put magnet plates on the boards and on the bases to make sure the don't fall off so easily. I'am also going to mark my movement tray/stand with coloured squares so that I can put my casualties at their own color. This help's organising all the models in the end.
I also got a manual for my opponents that don't know a lot about GSC. Just a simply description of how my army works; psychic powers, stratagems, cult ambush, aura buffs. This saves time on the questions because I can just say; 'read the thing, dude'. Meanwhile I already deploy my markers and punch the chess clock and say; you can deploy your whole army and take your time.
A couple other examples of the organization and bookkeeping with these guys:
-I run brood brothers both in GSC and AM detachments, so I need to remember which of the identical models can take orders.
-Explaining which guys are "on the battlefield" when I place my blips, counting half my points, and then when I put 3 blips back into deepstrike remembering which ones can come in turn 4 or later. And that's not even mentioning the strategy behind those decisions, which has huge implications and is not easy!
Not complaining at all, this stuff is fun (well maybe I'm complaining about the Orders a little) but I'm still working on my organizational systems for this stuff. Improving though.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/14 13:04:38
Gordoape wrote: A couple other examples of the organization and bookkeeping with these guys:
-I run brood brothers both in GSC and AM detachments, so I need to remember which of the identical models can take orders.
-Explaining which guys are "on the battlefield" when I place my blips, counting half my points, and then when I put 3 blips back into deepstrike remembering which ones can come in turn 4 or later. And that's not even mentioning the strategy behind those decisions, which has huge implications and is not easy!
Not complaining at all, this stuff is fun (well maybe I'm complaining about the Orders a little) but I'm still working on my organizational systems for this stuff. Improving though.
I also use a lot of pokerchip markers. I got pokerchips with tape on it and I use a whiteboard marker, and write down the wounds. Also a marker for my 'reroll a hit,wound or save once a game' WL trait and the primus 'reroll 1 to wound for an enemy unit once set up'.
I think the most important thing to remember is; don't do small stuff that doesn't have an impact in the game on the long run. I'am not going to shoot with autopistols at a tank commander because my rock saws need their charge to succeed to finish it off, and if the fail then that single wound is not going to make a difference. It is more important that I get to turn 4/5.
Khorzain wrote: Does the Jackal Alphus's 'Priority Target' buff apply to the Neophytes while they're inside the Goliath Truck?
Or do they have to disembark to get the +1 to hit?
They have to disembark
Wrong.
Well, kinda.
The +1 affects the Truck, which passes the bonus on to the people inside. So the Neophytes aren't DIRECTLY affected, but they still get the +1.
The hell are you talking about? It doesn't work like that because models in transports are not on the battlefield (even though the open topped like rule just allows them to shoot with their weapons)
Khorzain wrote: Does the Jackal Alphus's 'Priority Target' buff apply to the Neophytes while they're inside the Goliath Truck?
Or do they have to disembark to get the +1 to hit?
They have to disembark
Wrong.
Well, kinda.
The +1 affects the Truck, which passes the bonus on to the people inside. So the Neophytes aren't DIRECTLY affected, but they still get the +1.
The hell are you talking about? It doesn't work like that because models in transports are not on the battlefield (even though the open topped like rule just allows them to shoot with their weapons)
Modifiers that apply to the transport apply to the occupants.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Khorzain wrote: Does the Jackal Alphus's 'Priority Target' buff apply to the Neophytes while they're inside the Goliath Truck?
Or do they have to disembark to get the +1 to hit?
They have to disembark
Wrong.
Well, kinda.
The +1 affects the Truck, which passes the bonus on to the people inside. So the Neophytes aren't DIRECTLY affected, but they still get the +1.
The hell are you talking about? It doesn't work like that because models in transports are not on the battlefield (even though the open topped like rule just allows them to shoot with their weapons)
Modifiers that apply to the transport apply to the occupants.
So I’ve been toying around with a triple det list: it’s for an upcoming tourney that uses CA/BRB missions and is not mega competitive, but it’s my first one so I’d like to do well. I know it’s not super optimal but I have a limit on time to prepare and available models.
Shadowsword [26 PL, 492pts]: Twin heavy bolter
. 2 Lascannon & Twin Heavy Bolter Sponsons: 2x Lascannon, 2x Twin heavy bolter
++ Total: [115 PL, 2,000pts] ++
Some plus points: a big gun to shoot at knights etc. Some lascannons, mining lasers and plasma cannons available turn one to help whittle down armour and monsters. Deepstriking jackals and plasma can target things turn 2. Plenty of anti horde with punisher, devilgaunts and flamers.
Cons: use of infestation nodes to protect the stealers turn 1 is less than ideal but a nice counterpunch. Devilgaunts lack delivery but can be onslaughted to get up the board. It relies on quite a lot coming in turn 2 and thus the rest surviving but I just don’t have time or funds to buy/paint an acolyte horde.
I’d really appreciate any tweaks or observations that I might have missed. Thanks!
Hey folks, just thought I’d chime in and mention that I tried the Pauper Princes/Heavy Rock Drill list I was mathhammering and going on about a few pages ago.
I played the unit against a Craftworld Eldar list with multiple flyers, shadow specters, windriders, reapers, farseer, etc. it was a pretty mean list, and my own list had some problems unrelated to the drillers. I ended up losing the match, but it was very tight and I could probably have won, but my opponent misplayed and forgot to bring in his guardian bomb by turn 3, and I felt bad and let him bring it in on turn 4 because I didn’t want to be a dick. Anyway, that guardian bomb really swung the game, vaporizing a large acolyte unit in one round of shooting. I went second, so if it had come in turn I would have been able to charge it out of deep strike.
Back on topic, the drillers were amazing. A unit of 10 with 4 drills and the broodsurge strat aced a Wave Serpent in a single round of drill attacks - I didn’t even have to roll the rending claw attacks. I didn’t have Might up (failed the roll :(), but was still able to get each driller to push one unsaved wound through with the 3+ reroll to hit, wounding on 2s. Exactly 4 wounds went through and the mortal wounds took care of the rest.
Asmodas wrote: Hey folks, just thought I’d chime in and mention that I tried the Pauper Princes/Heavy Rock Drill list I was mathhammering and going on about a few pages ago.
I played the unit against a Craftworld Eldar list with multiple flyers, shadow specters, windriders, reapers, farseer, etc. it was a pretty mean list, and my own list had some problems unrelated to the drillers. I ended up losing the match, but it was very tight and I could probably have won, but my opponent misplayed and forgot to bring in his guardian bomb by turn 3, and I felt bad and let him bring it in on turn 4 because I didn’t want to be a dick. Anyway, that guardian bomb really swung the game, vaporizing a large acolyte unit in one round of shooting. I went second, so if it had come in turn I would have been able to charge it out of deep strike.
Back on topic, the drillers were amazing. A unit of 10 with 4 drills and the broodsurge strat aced a Wave Serpent in a single round of drill attacks - I didn’t even have to roll the rending claw attacks. I didn’t have Might up (failed the roll :(), but was still able to get each driller to push one unsaved wound through with the 3+ reroll to hit, wounding on 2s. Exactly 4 wounds went through and the mortal wounds took care of the rest.
Yeah.... and 4 Saw's average the 13 wounds at 2/3 of the cost.
You really should double check the other side of the math before posting about how great drills are.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/17 13:53:31
Asmodas wrote: Hey folks, just thought I’d chime in and mention that I tried the Pauper Princes/Heavy Rock Drill list I was mathhammering and going on about a few pages ago.
I played the unit against a Craftworld Eldar list with multiple flyers, shadow specters, windriders, reapers, farseer, etc. it was a pretty mean list, and my own list had some problems unrelated to the drillers. I ended up losing the match, but it was very tight and I could probably have won, but my opponent misplayed and forgot to bring in his guardian bomb by turn 3, and I felt bad and let him bring it in on turn 4 because I didn’t want to be a dick. Anyway, that guardian bomb really swung the game, vaporizing a large acolyte unit in one round of shooting. I went second, so if it had come in turn I would have been able to charge it out of deep strike.
Back on topic, the drillers were amazing. A unit of 10 with 4 drills and the broodsurge strat aced a Wave Serpent in a single round of drill attacks - I didn’t even have to roll the rending claw attacks. I didn’t have Might up (failed the roll :(), but was still able to get each driller to push one unsaved wound through with the 3+ reroll to hit, wounding on 2s. Exactly 4 wounds went through and the mortal wounds took care of the rest.
Yeah.... and 4 Saw's average the 13 wounds at 2/3 of the cost.
You really should double check the other side of the math before posting about how great drills are.
Ouch, that seems unduly harsh. A lot to unpack here:
First, I take it you did not read, or do not remember, any of my prior posts on the subject. That's fine - it was a while ago. In those posts, I wrote that I wanted to give the drills a go and see how they did compared to Saws as an experiment. Thus, I am just reporting back, as I promised to do, and I was satisfied with the unit’s in-game performance during the test run. No need to jump down my throat - if you aren’t interested in trying the unit, that’s fine, but I am not trying to mislead anyone here.
Second, I was running both a drill unit and a large saw unit. I don't see the two units as necessarily competing, but rather complementary. Due to their varying damage mechanisms, the two units have slightly different target profiles - saws are great against vehicles without invulns and certain types of multi-wound infantry (particularly 2 wound infantry, such as primaris), whereas drills are better against tanks and, particularly, vehicles and monsters with invulns and/or very high wound totals. Using both also allows you to build out two anti-tank acolyte units without having to go third party or do conversions, and the rock drill model is pretty nice looking too (probably not a major consideration for everyone, but it can be nice to have some variety in the way your models look), and then you can choose the unit for your deep strike depending on what kinds of targets are available.
We are also not really talking about a lot of points here. Running 4 drills only cost me an extra 28 points over another saw unit - which I couldn't have fielded anyway, since I only have 8 saws. The drill unit is 138 points, which is only ~25% more than a 10 man, 4 saw unit (look, I can play games with statistics, too!). I am willing to pay that small premium over saws given the drills' unique capabilities.
It is also extremely expensive (real world $) to build out multiple units of Rock Saw acolytes. One of the most common questions posted in this thread and its predecessors, which has been repeatedly answered time and again, is new GSC players coming here to find out where to get extra saw bitz/what to use to convert them, and building a few drill acolytes in addition to your saw acolytes is a decent way of giving your list some variety and bulking out your melee anti-tank. I was able to build 5 driller acolytes out of my bitz box (since I've already bought the acolyte box 8 times!) for about $10 extra, as all I needed was a single set of 5 acolyte legs from ebay.
Finally, I do not appreciate your unfounded (and incorrect) assertion that I did not do the math to compare the units. If you go back to my posts a few pages back, you will find that I have already been challenged by other posters on the rock saw/rock drill points difference, and was very cognizant of this issue. I provided an extensive statistical analysis comparing the two weapons including comparing the damage per point values of both units and, without rehashing the whole thing, the difference in damage per point is not really that significant. Now, to be fair, you really do need to build your list to support the drillers since you have to maximize the odds that each driller is going to push through at least one unsaved wound so you can trigger the mortal wounds jackpot round - hence the Pauper Princes trait, Broodsurge Strat, and attempted casting of Might. That means Saws are easier to slot into a list (although it is worth noting that rock saw acolytes typically require strat/psyker support too), but that doesn't not mean that Drills suck - they just require some extra thought to get the most out of them. When properly supported and used against their ideal targets, Drills actually exceed Saw units in terms of average damage per point.
I also can't help but notice that, despite accusing me of not doing the math, you did not post any math in support of your own argument that 4 saws do an average of 13 damage to a Wave Serpent. I just ran the numbers and your assertion is not true.
Under identical conditions (Pauper Princes trait granting a re-roll to hit, Broodsurge stratagem granting +1 to wound, but no extra attacks from Might from Beyond, and ignoring all of the rest of the squad's rending claw attacks), both units get an average of 7.1 hits = (8 x .666.) + .666(8 - (8 x .666)
Both units are wounding on a 2+, so that translates into 5.92 wounds. The Wave Serpent gets a 6+ save, so both units are causing about 4.93 unsaved wounds (I am ignoring Spirit Stones and other FNP types abilities for the moment since the WS in question didn't have one, but it should be noted that FNP-type abilities are generally not considered a "save," and thus wouldn't stop the drill's special rule from triggering).
4.93 wounds with the saw turns into an average of 9.86 wounds. Hmmm... that number doesn't seem to be 13, like you said. Thus, with the saws, it seems you must be either counting on making up the extra ~3.14 (pi?) wounds with the rending claw attacks, or are layering some undisclosed extra buffs on your rolls that are increasing the number of wounds. With thirteen or so extra attacks, 3.14 more wounds is certainly plausible, but wouldn't have worked in this case because I was charging through a gap between enemy units, and thus could only get the drillers and a couple other acolytes in range to attack the WS. If you were, in fact, using just the saws to arrive at 13 unsaved wounds, then you are counting on the saws getting about 33% more damage than they do, on average. I haven't run the numbers, but I strongly suspect that 33% extra wounds is at least one standard deviation away from the mean. Please feel free to fill me in on how you arrived at 13 wounds, as something seems very off here.
In comparison, the drills cause the same 4.93 wounds on average. If all 4 drillers cause at least one unsaved wound (and each driller should deal, on average 1.23 unsaved wounds) , then the drill special rule triggers 4 times. The drill's mortal wounds rule does, on average, 1.77 extra wounds each time it is triggered, which is boosted to 2.07 if you are willing to use a CP to reroll a 1 if you get one in the first roll of the dice.
Thus, the average damage for the drillers is 4.93 + (2.07 +1.77 + 1.77 +1.77) = 12.31 wounds. So my drills overperformed a tiny amount when they killed the wave serpent in one swing, but I am sure you'll agree that 12.31 is much closer to 13 than 9.86.
In the actual game, I only caused 4 unsaved wounds with the drillers, but got one wound with each drill, and thus got to roll for the special rule 4 time and then got no 1's on the first roll, which I will admit was lucky as it saved me a command point, and then rolled a few more 3+ and 4+'s to finish the job (and I was overdue for some luck by that point, as my first turn shooting rolls were absolutely abysmal - I only killed 2 rangers and caused no wounds to anything else). If I had used saws, I would only have dealt 8 wounds, probably taken a few more ineffectual swings with the rending claws, and the WS would have limped away on 3 or 4 wounds next turn.
Now let's normalize the data to determine the points-efficiency of the different models. A rock driller acolyte costs 24 points and a rock saw acolyte costs 17, or about 70.8% of what the rock driller does. 12.31 wounds x .70 = 8.719 wounds. Thus, on a pure point-for-point basis, the rock drillers are slightly less points-efficient against the WS compared to the saws, but it is really close, and a lot closer than you acknowledge. Again, however, those extra points you are spending are packing more damage potential into a smaller squad, buying you the ability to deal extra wounds against very tough targets, and I believe that is an option that is sometimes (not all the time! Not in every list!) worth having. In order to reach the same expected value of ~12-13 unsaved wounds with saws, the saw unit needs two more saws, which also requires that you buy 5 more acolyte bodies to go with them. That's another 55 points, and now your unit can't fit in a Truck, is easier to zone out, and, of course, is more expensive points-wise. In the actual game, my 20 man rock saw unit did nothing and got shot off the board because there was nowhere I could set it up due to flyer bases and rangers pushing me way back. But, I was able to find a spot for the 10 man driller team.
Asmodas wrote: Hey folks, just thought I’d chime in and mention that I tried the Pauper Princes/Heavy Rock Drill list I was mathhammering and going on about a few pages ago.
I played the unit against a Craftworld Eldar list with multiple flyers, shadow specters, windriders, reapers, farseer, etc. it was a pretty mean list, and my own list had some problems unrelated to the drillers. I ended up losing the match, but it was very tight and I could probably have won, but my opponent misplayed and forgot to bring in his guardian bomb by turn 3, and I felt bad and let him bring it in on turn 4 because I didn’t want to be a dick. Anyway, that guardian bomb really swung the game, vaporizing a large acolyte unit in one round of shooting. I went second, so if it had come in turn I would have been able to charge it out of deep strike.
Back on topic, the drillers were amazing. A unit of 10 with 4 drills and the broodsurge strat aced a Wave Serpent in a single round of drill attacks - I didn’t even have to roll the rending claw attacks. I didn’t have Might up (failed the roll :(), but was still able to get each driller to push one unsaved wound through with the 3+ reroll to hit, wounding on 2s. Exactly 4 wounds went through and the mortal wounds took care of the rest.
Yeah.... and 4 Saw's average the 13 wounds at 2/3 of the cost.
You really should double check the other side of the math before posting about how great drills are.
Ouch, that seems unduly harsh. A lot to unpack here:
First, I take it you did not read, or do not remember, any of my prior posts on the subject. That's fine - it was a while ago. In those posts, I wrote that I wanted to give the drills a go and see how they did compared to Saws as an experiment. Thus, I am just reporting back, as I promised to do, and I was satisfied with the unit’s in-game performance during the test run. No need to jump down my throat - if you aren’t interested in trying the unit, that’s fine, but I am not trying to mislead anyone here.
Second, I was running both a drill unit and a large saw unit. I don't see the two units as necessarily competing, but rather complementary. Due to their varying damage mechanisms, the two units have slightly different target profiles - saws are great against vehicles without invulns and certain types of multi-wound infantry (particularly 2 wound infantry, such as primaris), whereas drills are better against tanks and, particularly, vehicles and monsters with invulns and/or very high wound totals. Using both also allows you to build out two anti-tank acolyte units without having to go third party or do conversions, and the rock drill model is pretty nice looking too (probably not a major consideration for everyone, but it can be nice to have some variety in the way your models look), and then you can choose the unit for your deep strike depending on what kinds of targets are available.
We are also not really talking about a lot of points here. Running 4 drills only cost me an extra 28 points over another saw unit - which I couldn't have fielded anyway, since I only have 8 saws. The drill unit is 138 points, which is only ~25% more than a 10 man, 4 saw unit (look, I can play games with statistics, too!). I am willing to pay that small premium over saws given the drills' unique capabilities.
It is also extremely expensive (real world $) to build out multiple units of Rock Saw acolytes. One of the most common questions posted in this thread and its predecessors, which has been repeatedly answered time and again, is new GSC players coming here to find out where to get extra saw bitz/what to use to convert them, and building a few drill acolytes in addition to your saw acolytes is a decent way of giving your list some variety and bulking out your melee anti-tank. I was able to build 5 driller acolytes out of my bitz box (since I've already bought the acolyte box 8 times!) for about $10 extra, as all I needed was a single set of 5 acolyte legs from ebay.
Finally, I do not appreciate your unfounded (and incorrect) assertion that I did not do the math to compare the units. If you go back to my posts a few pages back, you will find that I have already been challenged by other posters on the rock saw/rock drill points difference, and was very cognizant of this issue. I provided an extensive statistical analysis comparing the two weapons including comparing the damage per point values of both units and, without rehashing the whole thing, the difference in damage per point is not really that significant. Now, to be fair, you really do need to build your list to support the drillers since you have to maximize the odds that each driller is going to push through at least one unsaved wound so you can trigger the mortal wounds jackpot round - hence the Pauper Princes trait, Broodsurge Strat, and attempted casting of Might. That means Saws are easier to slot into a list (although it is worth noting that rock saw acolytes typically require strat/psyker support too), but that doesn't not mean that Drills suck - they just require some extra thought to get the most out of them. When properly supported and used against their ideal targets, Drills actually exceed Saw units in terms of average damage per point.
I also can't help but notice that, despite accusing me of not doing the math, you did not post any math in support of your own argument that 4 saws do an average of 13 damage to a Wave Serpent. I just ran the numbers and your assertion is not true.
Under identical conditions (Pauper Princes trait granting a re-roll to hit, Broodsurge stratagem granting +1 to wound, but no extra attacks from Might from Beyond, and ignoring all of the rest of the squad's rending claw attacks), both units get an average of 7.1 hits = (8 x .666.) + .666(8 - (8 x .666)
Both units are wounding on a 2+, so that translates into 5.92 wounds. The Wave Serpent gets a 6+ save, so both units are causing about 4.93 unsaved wounds (I am ignoring Spirit Stones and other FNP types abilities for the moment since the WS in question didn't have one, but it should be noted that FNP-type abilities are generally not considered a "save," and thus wouldn't stop the drill's special rule from triggering).
4.93 wounds with the saw turns into an average of 9.86 wounds. Hmmm... that number doesn't seem to be 13, like you said. Thus, with the saws, it seems you must be either counting on making up the extra ~3.14 (pi?) wounds with the rending claw attacks, or are layering some undisclosed extra buffs on your rolls that are increasing the number of wounds. With thirteen or so extra attacks, 3.14 more wounds is certainly plausible, but wouldn't have worked in this case because I was charging through a gap between enemy units, and thus could only get the drillers and a couple other acolytes in range to attack the WS. If you were, in fact, using just the saws to arrive at 13 unsaved wounds, then you are counting on the saws getting about 33% more damage than they do, on average. I haven't run the numbers, but I strongly suspect that 33% extra wounds is at least one standard deviation away from the mean. Please feel free to fill me in on how you arrived at 13 wounds, as something seems very off here.
In comparison, the drills cause the same 4.93 wounds on average. If all 4 drillers cause at least one unsaved wound (and each driller should deal, on average 1.23 unsaved wounds) , then the drill special rule triggers 4 times. The drill's mortal wounds rule does, on average, 1.77 extra wounds each time it is triggered, which is boosted to 2.07 if you are willing to use a CP to reroll a 1 if you get one in the first roll of the dice.
Thus, the average damage for the drillers is 4.93 + (2.07 +1.77 + 1.77 +1.77) = 12.31 wounds. So my drills overperformed a tiny amount when they killed the wave serpent in one swing, but I am sure you'll agree that 12.31 is much closer to 13 than 9.86.
In the actual game, I only caused 4 unsaved wounds with the drillers, but got one wound with each drill, and thus got to roll for the special rule 4 time and then got no 1's on the first roll, which I will admit was lucky as it saved me a command point, and then rolled a few more 3+ and 4+'s to finish the job (and I was overdue for some luck by that point, as my first turn shooting rolls were absolutely abysmal - I only killed 2 rangers and caused no wounds to anything else). If I had used saws, I would only have dealt 8 wounds, probably taken a few more ineffectual swings with the rending claws, and the WS would have limped away on 3 or 4 wounds next turn.
Now let's normalize the data to determine the points-efficiency of the different models. A rock driller acolyte costs 24 points and a rock saw acolyte costs 17, or about 70.8% of what the rock driller does. 12.31 wounds x .70 = 8.719 wounds. Thus, on a pure point-for-point basis, the rock drillers are slightly less points-efficient against the WS compared to the saws, but it is really close, and a lot closer than you acknowledge. Again, however, those extra points you are spending are packing more damage potential into a smaller squad, buying you the ability to deal extra wounds against very tough targets, and I believe that is an option that is sometimes (not all the time! Not in every list!) worth having. In order to reach the same expected value of ~12-13 unsaved wounds with saws, the saw unit needs two more saws, which also requires that you buy 5 more acolyte bodies to go with them. That's another 55 points, and now your unit can't fit in a Truck, is easier to zone out, and, of course, is more expensive points-wise. In the actual game, my 20 man rock saw unit did nothing and got shot off the board because there was nowhere I could set it up due to flyer bases and rangers pushing me way back. But, I was able to find a spot for the 10 man driller team.
Have a great rest of your day.
You can do a lot of math to see what's the average result but I would never take a drill over a rocksaw. I don't like the random effect in combination with the 7+ points each . I always pick a patriarch with croughling and might from beyond so it should work a lot of the times. Also, always take the +1 Strength icon so with the broodsurge stratagem my rocksaws would almost always hit (primus + icon) and wound. That's why I like to use 15 acolytes with 5 rock saws + icon. It can do the perfect amount of damage against a single knight or two tanks/MC. I can choose how many units i'am going to assault after the psychic phase depending on a successful or failed 'might from beyond'.
But when I roll 6 attacks (3x drill) against a target with all these upgrades but (without might from beyond) most times I get an average of 13 wounds. For that same price I could get 5 rock saws that almost deal a solid 18 damage.
Asmodas wrote: Hey folks, just thought I’d chime in and mention that I tried the Pauper Princes/Heavy Rock Drill list I was mathhammering and going on about a few pages ago.
I played the unit against a Craftworld Eldar list with multiple flyers, shadow specters, windriders, reapers, farseer, etc. it was a pretty mean list, and my own list had some problems unrelated to the drillers. I ended up losing the match, but it was very tight and I could probably have won, but my opponent misplayed and forgot to bring in his guardian bomb by turn 3, and I felt bad and let him bring it in on turn 4 because I didn’t want to be a dick. Anyway, that guardian bomb really swung the game, vaporizing a large acolyte unit in one round of shooting. I went second, so if it had come in turn I would have been able to charge it out of deep strike.
Back on topic, the drillers were amazing. A unit of 10 with 4 drills and the broodsurge strat aced a Wave Serpent in a single round of drill attacks - I didn’t even have to roll the rending claw attacks. I didn’t have Might up (failed the roll :(), but was still able to get each driller to push one unsaved wound through with the 3+ reroll to hit, wounding on 2s. Exactly 4 wounds went through and the mortal wounds took care of the rest.
Yeah.... and 4 Saw's average the 13 wounds at 2/3 of the cost.
You really should double check the other side of the math before posting about how great drills are.
Ouch, that seems unduly harsh. A lot to unpack here:
First, I take it you did not read, or do not remember, any of my prior posts on the subject. That's fine - it was a while ago. In those posts, I wrote that I wanted to give the drills a go and see how they did compared to Saws as an experiment. Thus, I am just reporting back, as I promised to do, and I was satisfied with the unit’s in-game performance during the test run. No need to jump down my throat - if you aren’t interested in trying the unit, that’s fine, but I am not trying to mislead anyone here.
Second, I was running both a drill unit and a large saw unit. I don't see the two units as necessarily competing, but rather complementary. Due to their varying damage mechanisms, the two units have slightly different target profiles - saws are great against vehicles without invulns and certain types of multi-wound infantry (particularly 2 wound infantry, such as primaris), whereas drills are better against tanks and, particularly, vehicles and monsters with invulns and/or very high wound totals. Using both also allows you to build out two anti-tank acolyte units without having to go third party or do conversions, and the rock drill model is pretty nice looking too (probably not a major consideration for everyone, but it can be nice to have some variety in the way your models look), and then you can choose the unit for your deep strike depending on what kinds of targets are available.
We are also not really talking about a lot of points here. Running 4 drills only cost me an extra 28 points over another saw unit - which I couldn't have fielded anyway, since I only have 8 saws. The drill unit is 138 points, which is only ~25% more than a 10 man, 4 saw unit (look, I can play games with statistics, too!). I am willing to pay that small premium over saws given the drills' unique capabilities.
It is also extremely expensive (real world $) to build out multiple units of Rock Saw acolytes. One of the most common questions posted in this thread and its predecessors, which has been repeatedly answered time and again, is new GSC players coming here to find out where to get extra saw bitz/what to use to convert them, and building a few drill acolytes in addition to your saw acolytes is a decent way of giving your list some variety and bulking out your melee anti-tank. I was able to build 5 driller acolytes out of my bitz box (since I've already bought the acolyte box 8 times!) for about $10 extra, as all I needed was a single set of 5 acolyte legs from ebay.
Finally, I do not appreciate your unfounded (and incorrect) assertion that I did not do the math to compare the units. If you go back to my posts a few pages back, you will find that I have already been challenged by other posters on the rock saw/rock drill points difference, and was very cognizant of this issue. I provided an extensive statistical analysis comparing the two weapons including comparing the damage per point values of both units and, without rehashing the whole thing, the difference in damage per point is not really that significant. Now, to be fair, you really do need to build your list to support the drillers since you have to maximize the odds that each driller is going to push through at least one unsaved wound so you can trigger the mortal wounds jackpot round - hence the Pauper Princes trait, Broodsurge Strat, and attempted casting of Might. That means Saws are easier to slot into a list (although it is worth noting that rock saw acolytes typically require strat/psyker support too), but that doesn't not mean that Drills suck - they just require some extra thought to get the most out of them. When properly supported and used against their ideal targets, Drills actually exceed Saw units in terms of average damage per point.
I also can't help but notice that, despite accusing me of not doing the math, you did not post any math in support of your own argument that 4 saws do an average of 13 damage to a Wave Serpent. I just ran the numbers and your assertion is not true.
Under identical conditions (Pauper Princes trait granting a re-roll to hit, Broodsurge stratagem granting +1 to wound, but no extra attacks from Might from Beyond, and ignoring all of the rest of the squad's rending claw attacks), both units get an average of 7.1 hits = (8 x .666.) + .666(8 - (8 x .666)
Both units are wounding on a 2+, so that translates into 5.92 wounds. The Wave Serpent gets a 6+ save, so both units are causing about 4.93 unsaved wounds (I am ignoring Spirit Stones and other FNP types abilities for the moment since the WS in question didn't have one, but it should be noted that FNP-type abilities are generally not considered a "save," and thus wouldn't stop the drill's special rule from triggering).
4.93 wounds with the saw turns into an average of 9.86 wounds. Hmmm... that number doesn't seem to be 13, like you said. Thus, with the saws, it seems you must be either counting on making up the extra ~3.14 (pi?) wounds with the rending claw attacks, or are layering some undisclosed extra buffs on your rolls that are increasing the number of wounds. With thirteen or so extra attacks, 3.14 more wounds is certainly plausible, but wouldn't have worked in this case because I was charging through a gap between enemy units, and thus could only get the drillers and a couple other acolytes in range to attack the WS. If you were, in fact, using just the saws to arrive at 13 unsaved wounds, then you are counting on the saws getting about 33% more damage than they do, on average. I haven't run the numbers, but I strongly suspect that 33% extra wounds is at least one standard deviation away from the mean. Please feel free to fill me in on how you arrived at 13 wounds, as something seems very off here.
In comparison, the drills cause the same 4.93 wounds on average. If all 4 drillers cause at least one unsaved wound (and each driller should deal, on average 1.23 unsaved wounds) , then the drill special rule triggers 4 times. The drill's mortal wounds rule does, on average, 1.77 extra wounds each time it is triggered, which is boosted to 2.07 if you are willing to use a CP to reroll a 1 if you get one in the first roll of the dice.
Thus, the average damage for the drillers is 4.93 + (2.07 +1.77 + 1.77 +1.77) = 12.31 wounds. So my drills overperformed a tiny amount when they killed the wave serpent in one swing, but I am sure you'll agree that 12.31 is much closer to 13 than 9.86.
In the actual game, I only caused 4 unsaved wounds with the drillers, but got one wound with each drill, and thus got to roll for the special rule 4 time and then got no 1's on the first roll, which I will admit was lucky as it saved me a command point, and then rolled a few more 3+ and 4+'s to finish the job (and I was overdue for some luck by that point, as my first turn shooting rolls were absolutely abysmal - I only killed 2 rangers and caused no wounds to anything else). If I had used saws, I would only have dealt 8 wounds, probably taken a few more ineffectual swings with the rending claws, and the WS would have limped away on 3 or 4 wounds next turn.
Now let's normalize the data to determine the points-efficiency of the different models. A rock driller acolyte costs 24 points and a rock saw acolyte costs 17, or about 70.8% of what the rock driller does. 12.31 wounds x .70 = 8.719 wounds. Thus, on a pure point-for-point basis, the rock drillers are slightly less points-efficient against the WS compared to the saws, but it is really close, and a lot closer than you acknowledge. Again, however, those extra points you are spending are packing more damage potential into a smaller squad, buying you the ability to deal extra wounds against very tough targets, and I believe that is an option that is sometimes (not all the time! Not in every list!) worth having. In order to reach the same expected value of ~12-13 unsaved wounds with saws, the saw unit needs two more saws, which also requires that you buy 5 more acolyte bodies to go with them. That's another 55 points, and now your unit can't fit in a Truck, is easier to zone out, and, of course, is more expensive points-wise. In the actual game, my 20 man rock saw unit did nothing and got shot off the board because there was nowhere I could set it up due to flyer bases and rangers pushing me way back. But, I was able to find a spot for the 10 man driller team.
Have a great rest of your day.
I may have been a little harsher then I should have been, my apologies for that.
As for the math. I, mistakenly, assuming 2+ re-rolling hits from a Primus aura not a 3+ re-rolling which does indeed bring the average down a little. Tho saw's are ap -4 unlike the -3 from Drills which removes the save entirely.
Under your conditions Saw's would be average 11.84 wounds (8 attacks, 7.11 hits, 5.92 wounds, no save)
I was, again my fault, working on 8 attacks on 2+, 7.78 hits, 6.48 wounds, 12.96 wounds)
For me the extra cost combined with the more swingy nature of the results (failing to inflict a wound with a Drill feels horrible because you lose out on the mortal wounds) leads to Saw's just being the clearly preferred/better option.
I wonder if someone more knowledge then myself in the available online dice software and tested to see just how big the deviation on Drills is.
Khorzain wrote: For those that bring Atalan Jackals, what's their purpose in your army, and how have they performed for you?
Do they have any good uses besides the Demo Charge strat and being quick objective holders?
I've been thinking of picking some up, but I'm not quite sold on them just yet.
They can be pretty decent turn 1 screen killers, especially against scouts and the like.
I use them solely for the lying in wait/extra explosives/rusted claw strat combo with 2 waves. Turn 2 and turn 3. After that they are really just objective grabbers/distractions for me
Khorzain wrote:For those that bring Atalan Jackals, what's their purpose in your army, and how have they performed for you?
Do they have any good uses besides the Demo Charge strat and being quick objective holders?
I've been thinking of picking some up, but I'm not quite sold on them just yet.
I've found them useful and solid, but most of their best tricks fall under the Rusted Claw creed. Besides the obvious synergy with drive by demolitions, the removal of the move-and-fire penalty part of the trait makes Mining Laser wolfquads fairly decent anti-tank platforms. They have a good combination of mobility, durability (lots of ablative wounds for the gun and several wounds on the gun itself), and accuracy via the extended leash they get from the Alphus. The ability to hit on a 3+ while on the move is fairly unique to them (Bladed Cog can achieve a similar effect with Neophytes, but doesn't get the 12'' priority target bubble).
They also work fairly well as tarpits against low body-count fire support units like Hive Guard. They are fast enough to get to the target early enough to matter while their large base size makes it fairly easy to completely surround the target to prevent fall-back.
Reanimator wrote:So I’ve been toying around with a triple det list: it’s for an upcoming tourney that uses CA/BRB missions and is not mega competitive, but it’s my first one so I’d like to do well. I know it’s not super optimal but I have a limit on time to prepare and available models.
I think the biggest issue with your list is that it lacks focus. It looks like it was built from an assortment of individually strong units without much regard for what you want each detachment to do. I'd suggest refactoring to make each detachment focus on a specific strength of its army and go from there.
Tyranid Detachment: I think this is the weakest of the three. A single squad of Genestealers and a single squad of Termagants isn't likely to survive their trudge across the table to get into range. Models permitting, I'd either refactor this to be focused on shock assault ('stealers) or board control (other infantry) as currently it is trying to do a bit of both and can't really do either effectively. Alternatively, you could use Tyranids as a source of additional high toughness saturation to take advantage of your shadowsword.
GSC Detachment: Mostly fine. Only concern here is that your body count is a bit low and you don't really have much redundancy. It might be wiser to swap the Achillies for more bikes and the Kelermorph for more Acolytes/Neophytes and gear.
AM Detachment: Main concern here is that there isn't much high toughness saturation available to keep your shadowsword safe (or at least take advantage of its bullet magnet status). Part of me thinks it might be a better use of points to take a Spearhead detachment with a battery of artillery instead, since they can hide out of line of sight.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/20 04:20:32
Thinking of using 10 with picks and 2 hypermorphs along with a Primus and buffed with might from beyond (hopefully, casting 7 is a bit unreliable).
I was thinking twisted helix for the Creed and using perfect ambush to get them in place without a clamavus. The abominant seems like too many points to be worth it as a buffing guy.
Anything I'm doing wrong / should do differently? I'm liking the way they could potentially nuke half the enemy's army with the fight twice strat!
Fully Painted Armies: 2200pts Orks 1000pts Space Marines 1200pts Tau 2500pts Blood Angels 3500pts Imperial Guard/Renegades and 1700pts Daemons 450pts Imperial Knights
Thinking of using 10 with picks and 2 hypermorphs along with a Primus and buffed with might from beyond (hopefully, casting 7 is a bit unreliable).
I was thinking twisted helix for the Creed and using perfect ambush to get them in place without a clamavus. The abominant seems like too many points to be worth it as a buffing guy.
Anything I'm doing wrong / should do differently? I'm liking the way they could potentially nuke half the enemy's army with the fight twice strat!
On paper helix seems great because they can fight twice, but in practice by the time the pop up and burn through the CP you probably won't have anything left worth using the fight again strat on. Thats said you can build an army around it and reserve more CP to it, it's definitely a very telegraphed hay maker though so it's tough finding an ambush spot.
Can GS somehow get past the 3rd turn limit on reinforcements? I have been reading Nanavati's texts, and one of the tricks there he advices is to keep units in reserve until 4th or 5th turn.
Whenever I talk about meta or how good something is, I'm speaking about the competitive tournament environment. So if I say your favourite unit is trash, I mean it's trash in a list that aims to be at the top tables.
Yes. If you put a unit under a blip, it counts as being deployed on the table for the purposes of tactical reserves. If you use the stratagem “they came from below” to put that unit off the board, it doesn’t change the fact that it has already been deployed. That stratagem specifies that you cant arrive on turn 1, but other than that you don’t follow any of the rules for tactical reserves (such as auto-dying on turn 3 if not deployed).
I plan to use him with 30 kraken hormagaunts so I can opportunistic advance them up and block in my opponents. He is a bit pricey but he hits like a sledge hammer.
Hive Fleet Kronos 3500pts
Craftworld {Insert eldar name} 3000 pts
1000pts and growing fast
1000pts Space Marines 
1200pts Tau 
2500pts Blood Angels 
3500pts Imperial Guard/Renegades 
and 1700pts Daemons 
450pts Imperial Knights 
