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jifel wrote: Yes. If you put a unit under a blip, it counts as being deployed on the table for the purposes of tactical reserves. If you use the stratagem “they came from below” to put that unit off the board, it doesn’t change the fact that it has already been deployed. That stratagem specifies that you cant arrive on turn 1, but other than that you don’t follow any of the rules for tactical reserves (such as auto-dying on turn 3 if not deployed).
So, 'the came from below' units can 'deep strike' after turn 3? Hmm that changes a lot!
Postulent wrote: Can GS somehow get past the 3rd turn limit on reinforcements? I have been reading Nanavati's texts, and one of the tricks there he advices is to keep units in reserve until 4th or 5th turn.
Postulent wrote: Can GS somehow get past the 3rd turn limit on reinforcements? I have been reading Nanavati's texts, and one of the tricks there he advices is to keep units in reserve until 4th or 5th turn.
For the life of me, I can't understand his constant usage on two full units of aberrants. No matter what way I stare at it, it just feels like acolytes with saws would work better, aberrants cost way more, saws are perfectly capable of cutting knight in half, and aberrants only give all those tank commanders, knights etc, something pricy to shoot at. The doublefight, hit when you die combo is nice, but it's a huge overkill against almost anything and eats third of your cp in a turn.
Whenever I talk about meta or how good something is, I'm speaking about the competitive tournament environment. So if I say your favourite unit is trash, I mean it's trash in a list that aims to be at the top tables.
For the life of me, I can't understand his constant usage on two full units of aberrants. No matter what way I stare at it, it just feels like acolytes with saws would work better, aberrants cost way more, saws are perfectly capable of cutting knight in half, and aberrants only give all those tank commanders, knights etc, something pricy to shoot at. The doublefight, hit when you die combo is nice, but it's a huge overkill against almost anything and eats third of your cp in a turn.
I can see some possible justifications, depending on what else he is bringing. Acolytes really want strength buffs to deal with T8 targets while Aberrant weapons by default have the bolstered strength. Smaller foot print and more concentrated punch are also possible considerations, as it is easier to squeeze a 10-strong unit into striking range than a 15-20 strong unit. Then there is also the matter of economically, the Aberrant kit is more cost effective than Acolytes as far as getting the gear they require goes.
On a related tangent, I've generally found Aberrants best as either Bladed Cog or Pauper Princes despite the Twisted Helix signature stratagem. Both also help the Abominant out (Bladed Cog gives him access to a 3++, Pauper Princes helps his accuracy and has a very solid relic that likes having a tough caddie to lug it around) while having a fairly good toolbox for Aberrants themselves to draw from.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/25 06:15:44
Strat_N8 wrote: Smaller foot print and more concentrated punch are also possible considerations, as it is easier to squeeze a 10-strong unit into striking range than a 15-20 strong unit. Then there is also the matter of economically, the Aberrant kit is more cost effective than Acolytes as far as getting the gear they require goes.
I think it's mostly an economically issue. Abberants got a smaller footprint but acolytes with rock saws can conga-line and that makes it easier to get within the primus range and the +1 Strength iconward. In combination with the +1 to wound broodsurge stratagem and the 'reroll 1 to wound at a single target' from the primus they're far better at dealing a solid amount of 'non-random' damage. Take 15 acolytes with 6 rock saws and an icon. Even without 'mass hypnosis' but with the +1 Strength icon the got 2+ to hit with reroll 1 and 2+ to wound with reroll 1. With 12 attacks thats about 20/22 wounds on a knight. Add a few regular rending attacks and that thing goes down.
Acolytes could also conga-line 3 rock saws towards target A, and congaline the 3 other rock saws towards target B. With 'mass hypnosis' it is very likely to kill both regular tanks/MC. A bigger footprint got it's advantages.
I got a team tournament coming up and I'am making a full bladed cog neophyte army with lasers and grenades. I really like the bladed cog stratagem in combination with 10 talon Metamorphs with icon. The really give the army a nice tool to deal with plague bearers, 30 ork boyz and ad mech in general. Give them 'mass hypnosis' and their a rape-blender missile.
shogun wrote: [...]
I got a team tournament coming up and I'am making a full bladed cog neophyte army with lasers and grenades. I really like the bladed cog stratagem in combination with 10 talon Metamorphs with icon. The really give the army a nice tool to deal with plague bearers, 30 ork boyz and ad mech in general. Give them 'mass hypnosis' and their a rape-blender missile.
Because I've also toyed with the idea of a mainly "human"-GSC list consisting of Neophytes as the only troops choice, I am interested in seeing your Neophyte based list, if you wouldn't mind posting it?
shogun wrote: [...]
I got a team tournament coming up and I'am making a full bladed cog neophyte army with lasers and grenades. I really like the bladed cog stratagem in combination with 10 talon Metamorphs with icon. The really give the army a nice tool to deal with plague bearers, 30 ork boyz and ad mech in general. Give them 'mass hypnosis' and their a rape-blender missile.
Because I've also toyed with the idea of a mainly "human"-GSC list consisting of Neophytes as the only troops choice, I am interested in seeing your Neophyte based list, if you wouldn't mind posting it?
Better go Hive Cult for that purpose then, Chilling Efficiency is damn good for Neophytes spam with 2x Grenade Launchers in every squad and a Jackal Alphus behind.
Bladed Cog is a trap for Neophytes, it works much better for multiwound models and Aberrants
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/06/27 12:46:30
Do you think Vultures with punishers are useful to clear out screening infantry? They seem effective for their points, but I don't see them in a lot of lists. That could ofc be because they are expensive forgeworld kits.
This question was sparked by an idea I have about building a clumsy freighter aircraft from a munitorum container and a stormtalon. I imagine it would look interesting with a punisher cannon mounted in the door of the container.
Spiky Norman wrote: Because I've also toyed with the idea of a mainly "human"-GSC list consisting of Neophytes as the only troops choice, I am interested in seeing your Neophyte based list, if you wouldn't mind posting it?
Don't mind, but this is a team tournament setup;
- 2 players each 1000p,
- teamplayer armies don't interact/effect with aura's, stratagems, psychic power etc, but cannot use the same stratagem/psychic power at the same time.
- max 3 detachments for each team, and no player can have two of the same detachments,
- max 3 of the same datasheet rule in effect and a single player can only take two of the same datasheet units.
- max 1 superheavy detachment,
- each player has his own warlord,
- each player need to deploy minimum 50% of their army.
No mission pack yet but we are thinking about this;
Both armies got the 'single minded obsession warlord trait' and that means that we both can mark a single enemy unit after deployment and each unit within 6 inch of the alpha jackal get's reroll to wound against that unit. Combining the +1 to hit against a specific target with the alpha means a 3+ to hit and reroll to wound with a gakload of lasers and grenades. And don't forget the autoguns! At some point I did more wounds with my S3 autoguns against a knight then the lascannons! That reroll to wound really helps.
KurtAngle2 wrote:Better go Hive Cult for that purpose then, Chilling Efficiency is damn good for Neophytes spam with 2x Grenade Launchers in every squad and a Jackal Alphus behind.
Bladed Cog is a trap for Neophytes, it works much better for multiwound models and Aberrants
I think in this case the 'reroll to wound against a specific target warlord trait' is better and I tend to move a lot with the neophytes and need to being able to shoot with the mining lasers at different targets. Not really worried about the 'big targets' but rather the multiple small targets, like 5+ venoms and stuff.
Spiky Norman wrote: Because I've also toyed with the idea of a mainly "human"-GSC list consisting of Neophytes as the only troops choice, I am interested in seeing your Neophyte based list, if you wouldn't mind posting it?
Don't mind, but this is a team tournament setup;
- 2 players each 1000p,
- teamplayer armies don't interact/effect with aura's, stratagems, psychic power etc, but cannot use the same stratagem/psychic power at the same time.
- max 3 detachments for each team, and no player can have two of the same detachments,
- max 3 of the same datasheet rule in effect and a single player can only take two of the same datasheet units.
- max 1 superheavy detachment,
- each player has his own warlord,
- each player need to deploy minimum 50% of their army.
No mission pack yet but we are thinking about this;
Both armies got the 'single minded obsession warlord trait' and that means that we both can mark a single enemy unit after deployment and each unit within 6 inch of the alpha jackal get's reroll to wound against that unit. Combining the +1 to hit against a specific target with the alpha means a 3+ to hit and reroll to wound with a gakload of lasers and grenades. And don't forget the autoguns! At some point I did more wounds with my S3 autoguns against a knight then the lascannons! That reroll to wound really helps.
KurtAngle2 wrote:Better go Hive Cult for that purpose then, Chilling Efficiency is damn good for Neophytes spam with 2x Grenade Launchers in every squad and a Jackal Alphus behind.
Bladed Cog is a trap for Neophytes, it works much better for multiwound models and Aberrants
I think in this case the 'reroll to wound against a specific target warlord trait' is better and I tend to move a lot with the neophytes and need to being able to shoot with the mining lasers at different targets. Not really worried about the 'big targets' but rather the multiple small targets, like 5+ venoms and stuff.
It's not as good as you think with Neophytes, the best use for it is for 20 Flamers Acolyte with a Patriarch nearby to provide such trait
[Long list cut]
Both armies got the 'single minded obsession warlord trait' and that means that we both can mark a single enemy unit after deployment and each unit within 6 inch of the alpha jackal get's reroll to wound against that unit. Combining the +1 to hit against a specific target with the alpha means a 3+ to hit and reroll to wound with a gakload of lasers and grenades. And don't forget the autoguns! At some point I did more wounds with my S3 autoguns against a knight then the lascannons! That reroll to wound really helps.
Thanks for posting it. That's a lot of Neophytes!
I suppose the lists is a bit special due to the rules of the team tournaments, but I thought perhaps you'd have some vehicles or maybe even bikes.
What do you think a list that only had Neophytes, the various characters and all types of vehicles would look like at its best? (Even though I am fully aware that it's not the most competitive choice)
Mellon wrote: Do you think Vultures with punishers are useful to clear out screening infantry? They seem effective for their points, but I don't see them in a lot of lists. That could ofc be because they are expensive forgeworld kits.
This question was sparked by an idea I have about building a clumsy freighter aircraft from a munitorum container and a stormtalon. I imagine it would look interesting with a punisher cannon mounted in the door of the container.
Then your apparently looking in the wrong places because a couple of top GSC lists that won GT's were running the triple vulture.
Yes 6 Punisher cannons on mobile harder to hit platforms are good.
But as you said, not everyone has them or plays in tournaments that allow FW.
Spiky Norman wrote: Because I've also toyed with the idea of a mainly "human"-GSC list consisting of Neophytes as the only troops choice, I am interested in seeing your Neophyte based list, if you wouldn't mind posting it?
Don't mind, but this is a team tournament setup;
- 2 players each 1000p,
- teamplayer armies don't interact/effect with aura's, stratagems, psychic power etc, but cannot use the same stratagem/psychic power at the same time.
- max 3 detachments for each team, and no player can have two of the same detachments,
- max 3 of the same datasheet rule in effect and a single player can only take two of the same datasheet units.
- max 1 superheavy detachment,
- each player has his own warlord,
- each player need to deploy minimum 50% of their army.
No mission pack yet but we are thinking about this;
Both armies got the 'single minded obsession warlord trait' and that means that we both can mark a single enemy unit after deployment and each unit within 6 inch of the alpha jackal get's reroll to wound against that unit. Combining the +1 to hit against a specific target with the alpha means a 3+ to hit and reroll to wound with a gakload of lasers and grenades. And don't forget the autoguns! At some point I did more wounds with my S3 autoguns against a knight then the lascannons! That reroll to wound really helps.
KurtAngle2 wrote:Better go Hive Cult for that purpose then, Chilling Efficiency is damn good for Neophytes spam with 2x Grenade Launchers in every squad and a Jackal Alphus behind.
Bladed Cog is a trap for Neophytes, it works much better for multiwound models and Aberrants
I think in this case the 'reroll to wound against a specific target warlord trait' is better and I tend to move a lot with the neophytes and need to being able to shoot with the mining lasers at different targets. Not really worried about the 'big targets' but rather the multiple small targets, like 5+ venoms and stuff.
It's not as good as you think with Neophytes, the best use for it is for 20 Flamers Acolyte with a Patriarch nearby to provide such trait
Yes, that is also good, but you got to mark an enemy unit after deployment so the enemy knows about your plan.
I think in my team tournament setting it is better to go for the reroll to wound because I can do it with both players and I cannot use the same stratagem (Chilling Efficiency) twice. Both settings got their strengths and weaknesses compared to each other in different situations.
Bladed cog:
- Better for the mining lasers if they're moving because the don't get the -1 to hit penalty even when shooting at different targets,
- Apart from mining lasers, the reroll to wound for autoguns and grenade launchers really increases the damage output against a single target with 'single-minded obsession',
- 6++ for the neophytes,
Hive cult:
- Better for the mining lasers if the stand still with Chilling Efficiency,
- Extra 1+ to hit for the autoguns and grenade launchers with Chilling Efficiency,
- Compared to 'single-minded obsession', 'Chilling Efficiency' can be used on different targets but cost 2CP to activate,
- Hive cult units can fall back and still shoot (with a -1 to hit).
You're also missing reroll 1s to hit via Hive Cult which is a massive improvement when you can add several modifiers to hit.
6++ on Neophyte is all but useless, nobody is gonna shot AP-2 on them whilst the - 1 to Hit via Heavy Weapons is compensated by the aforementioned positive modifiers which also Buffs all other weapons (grenade launchers in particular gets increased damage output by a lot).
Also halving morale damage means that you're not losing even few models here and there and the possibility of shooting whilst disengaging, whilst not particularly strong by itself, gives you the chance to keep adding damage
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/28 08:35:22
I'm liking the idea of using an enormous horde of brood brothers and backing it up with a few big punches which I can go CP-crazy with
Twisted helix (two battalions)
Patriarch (no overwatch amulet relic)
Patriarch extra attacks warlord trait and +1 damage relic
Primus
Magus with crouchling
10 aberrants, picks and 2 stop signs
15 acolytes with 6 rock saws
20 acolytes with hand flamers and 5 demo charges
6x 20 brood brothers
Brood brothers battalion
2 company commanders
3x30 conscripts
2x astropaths with psychic barrier and psychic maelstrom
Hopefully too many bodies for some armies to handle and will force others to castle or expose themselves to some brutal CC threats.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/28 15:03:07
Fully Painted Armies: 2200pts Orks 1000pts Space Marines 1200pts Tau 2500pts Blood Angels 3500pts Imperial Guard/Renegades and 1700pts Daemons 450pts Imperial Knights
Spiky Norman wrote: What do you think a list that only had Neophytes, the various characters and all types of vehicles would look like at its best? (Even though I am fully aware that it's not the most competitive choice)
Not a fan of the vehicles because I like how a full infantry/bikes army can make the enemies anti-vehicle weapons a waste. With a full Neophytes army I would probably pick the best from each creed. You would need 'broodcoven' for 3x warlord traits.
Deploy battalion: Hive cult, with big units (20) Neophytes with lasers and grenades + alpha + Patriarch with Warlord trait with reroll 1.
Deep strike battalion: bladed cog, with small units Neophytes with lasers and grenades, kellermorph + alpha and 'chilling efficiency' Warlord trait Magus.
And I would get a rusted claw biker gang with an alpha and 3x5 jackals with demolition charges.
Strat_N8 wrote: Smaller foot print and more concentrated punch are also possible considerations, as it is easier to squeeze a 10-strong unit into striking range than a 15-20 strong unit. Then there is also the matter of economically, the Aberrant kit is more cost effective than Acolytes as far as getting the gear they require goes.
I think it's mostly an economically issue.
When it comes to Nick Nanavati, it's probably the one time you can be certain it's not an economic issue. His professional career is playing this game. People send him free models just to have their paintjobs in his collection.
Strat_N8 wrote: Smaller foot print and more concentrated punch are also possible considerations, as it is easier to squeeze a 10-strong unit into striking range than a 15-20 strong unit. Then there is also the matter of economically, the Aberrant kit is more cost effective than Acolytes as far as getting the gear they require goes.
I think it's mostly an economically issue.
When it comes to Nick Nanavati, it's probably the one time you can be certain it's not an economic issue. His professional career is playing this game. People send him free models just to have their paintjobs in his collection.
Could be, but thats not an argument. Aberrants are a solid unit but that doesn't mean rocksaw acolytes couldn't have done the same job or better. Maybe 2 big unit of aberrants can survive more incoming fire and pushes the army at the right time over the top at a crucial moment in the game. Or maybe the died but let the other infantry pick up all the objectives.
That's what I like about GSC, you can do all the math in a vacuum but if revolves all around the complete synergy within the army, and the flexibility to switch to different tactics regarding different opponents.
I didn't make an argument for or against Aberrants. I just pointed out that it's pretty safe to say you are wrong in dismissing it as an economical issue here, there is almost certainly a reason why he takes them.
Nitro Zeus wrote: I didn't make an argument for or against Aberrants. I just pointed out that it's pretty safe to say you are wrong in dismissing it as an economical issue here, there is almost certainly a reason why he takes them.
And I was referring to 'Strat' who mentioned the 'economical issue' in relation to using aberrants in general. Nick Probably took them for a reason but maybe he thought; "I know that acolytes with rock saws are slightly better but I just like how the aberrants look and I like to keep other 40k players guessing at why I took them, just to screw with their minds".
I’ve also been running 20 Aberrants and have talked to Nick extensively on the subject. Their durability is much better than Acolytes and that’s very important. They don’t have the same “here’s a dead knight” factor, but otherwise hit many mid-tier targets better, and the ability to fight in death is absolutely crucial in the Ork or chaos matchup. I started out with 65 Acolytes/10 Aberrants in my gsc lists, and have switched to 35 Acolytes/20 Aberrants and I’m honestly getting much better results.
Aberrants also have a smaller footprint as mentioned above and can hide in terrain much more easily.
Nitro Zeus wrote: I didn't make an argument for or against Aberrants. I just pointed out that it's pretty safe to say you are wrong in dismissing it as an economical issue here, there is almost certainly a reason why he takes them.
And I was referring to 'Strat' who mentioned the 'economical issue' in relation to using aberrants in general. Nick Probably took them for a reason but maybe he thought; "I know that acolytes with rock saws are slightly better but I just like how the aberrants look and I like to keep other 40k players guessing at why I took them, just to screw with their minds".
I left that part in my post, I disagreed with both of you that it was an economic issue, that doesn't seem very likely given who we are talking about.
On their topic of Aberrant, I think they are better than you given them credit for personally, especially in Twisted Helix. It's not like he isn't also running Acolytes.
Aberrants also have a smaller footprint as mentioned above and can hide in terrain much more easily.
Which is why its actually very important to add the disclaimer that he plays almost exclusively in the ITC, home of the magic box terrain house rules. When you can either hide 10 acolytes or 10 abberants and become immune to direct fire, the choice makes more sense, since 1:1 the abberants are better because your generally unable to hide more then 10 32mm based models per magic box. If your not playing a specific packet then the choices from a list tailored for it may not seem as solid.
Personally, I am at the point where I think the ITC format is shifting balance more then aiding it. The format doesn't actually add any more balance at this point, it just shifts the furniture around. The process becomes more of a list building exercise and less about in game strategy. Further more, GW is postponing game patches in order to collect data from ITC event results. So they are issuing FAQ's and adjustments to the core game using results from a house rule packet, it's a less then ideal situation.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/07/01 21:53:49
Pretty sure units in trucks dont benefit from the Jackal Alphus.
Q: If a transport with the Open-topped ability (e.g. a Trukk) is
within range of an aura ability, are units that are embarked upon
that transport affected by that ability?
A: No.
6000 pts of Foot Guard
"I once gave the order to one of my platoons to fix bayonets and charge a squad of genestealers. If they believed in the emperor hard enough they could win... I don't think they believed enough..."
FatBoyNoSlim wrote: Pretty sure units in trucks dont benefit from the Jackal Alphus.
Q: If a transport with the Open-topped ability (e.g. a Trukk) is
within range of an aura ability, are units that are embarked upon
that transport affected by that ability?
A: No.
But the VEHICLE is affected, and modifiers (NOT rerolls, but modifiers) that affect the vehicle affect the occupants.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Aberrants also have a smaller footprint as mentioned above and can hide in terrain much more easily.
Which is why its actually very important to add the disclaimer that he plays almost exclusively in the ITC, home of the magic box terrain house rules. When you can either hide 10 acolytes or 10 abberants and become immune to direct fire, the choice makes more sense, since 1:1 the abberants are better because your generally unable to hide more then 10 32mm based models per magic box. If your not playing a specific packet then the choices from a list tailored for it may not seem as solid.
Personally, I am at the point where I think the ITC format is shifting balance more then aiding it. The format doesn't actually add any more balance at this point, it just shifts the furniture around. The process becomes more of a list building exercise and less about in game strategy. Further more, GW is postponing game patches in order to collect data from ITC event results. So they are issuing FAQ's and adjustments to the core game using results from a house rule packet, it's a less then ideal situation.
Nick plays on the east coast, not the west coast. Most of the “magic box” terrain is the stuff made by FLG, which isn’t nearly as common on the east. It’s present for sure, but honestly none of my local events use the boxes and Aberrants are still just more efficient.
I wonder if the situation actually happens on the table where 10 Aberrants live with enough numbers to still be effective but 20 Acolytes wouldn't. Especially in combination with other threats around those Aberrants/acolytes that also need to be dealt with.
I think a big part is also that Chaos lists appear to be doing quite well atm? and many of those lists seem to rely on things like DP's in combat to take care of threats and are light on shooting and then the guaranteed return damage from Aberrants with the stratagem certainly is a huge deterrent..
FatBoyNoSlim wrote: Pretty sure units in trucks dont benefit from the Jackal Alphus.
Q: If a transport with the Open-topped ability (e.g. a Trukk) is
within range of an aura ability, are units that are embarked upon
that transport affected by that ability?
A: No.
But the VEHICLE is affected, and modifiers (NOT rerolls, but modifiers) that affect the vehicle affect the occupants.
Not to turn this into a YMBC thread, but the Jackel Alphus ability is an aura ability, no matter how you spin it. Therefor the occupants do not gain the benefit.
This is how I see the interaction playing out:
1) Jackal Alphus using ability to give +1 to hit vs enemy target to all units with 6 inches (Aura ability)
2) Truck with Neophytes is in range.
3) Truck receives the benefits of the +1 to hit modifier
4) Neophytes are normally effected by modifiers to the truck, but as in this case the modifier comes from an aura ability, the FAQ kicks in and they are not allowed to benefit from the +1 to hit.
To take it a step further. If a player was to use Chilling Efficiency, which is a stratagem that adds +1 to hit, this would affect both the truck and its occupants. The stratagem applies a modifier that affects the truck, and the truck passes this modifier onto its passengers. It is not an aura ability so even though the neophytes are technically not on the board they still get the benefit thanks to the truck getting the modifier.
6000 pts of Foot Guard
"I once gave the order to one of my platoons to fix bayonets and charge a squad of genestealers. If they believed in the emperor hard enough they could win... I don't think they believed enough..."
1000pts Space Marines 
1200pts Tau 
2500pts Blood Angels 
3500pts Imperial Guard/Renegades 
and 1700pts Daemons 
450pts Imperial Knights 
6000 pts of Foot Guard
