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The open topped rule trumps everything, that's the fact.
Every positive or negative modifier affecting the Vehicle also affects the occupants, so they people inside can receive +2 BS from both Alphus and Chilling Efficiency but they can never benefit themselves from any source of reroll (since it isn't a modifier)
KurtAngle2 wrote: The open topped rule trumps everything, that's the fact.
Every positive or negative modifier affecting the Vehicle also affects the occupants, so they people inside can receive +2 BS from both Alphus and Chilling Efficiency but they can never benefit themselves from any source of reroll (since it isn't a modifier)
Happy to be proven wrong, but please can you provide the FAQ extract so I can see wording.
So far I dont see how the open topped rule would trump everything.
6000 pts of Foot Guard
"I once gave the order to one of my platoons to fix bayonets and charge a squad of genestealers. If they believed in the emperor hard enough they could win... I don't think they believed enough..."
KurtAngle2 wrote: The open topped rule trumps everything, that's the fact.
Every positive or negative modifier affecting the Vehicle also affects the occupants, so they people inside can receive +2 BS from both Alphus and Chilling Efficiency but they can never benefit themselves from any source of reroll (since it isn't a modifier)
Happy to be proven wrong, but please can you provide the FAQ extract so I can see wording.
So far I dont see how the open topped rule would trump everything.
Because Open Topped is an exception to the rule that units inside transports are not in game and therefore do not benefit from anything
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/04 11:36:35
KurtAngle2 wrote: The open topped rule trumps everything, that's the fact.
Every positive or negative modifier affecting the Vehicle also affects the occupants, so they people inside can receive +2 BS from both Alphus and Chilling Efficiency but they can never benefit themselves from any source of reroll (since it isn't a modifier)
Happy to be proven wrong, but please can you provide the FAQ extract so I can see wording.
So far I dont see how the open topped rule would trump everything.
Because Open Topped is an exception to the rule that units inside transports are not in game and therefore do not benefit from anything
I have checked both the GSCFAQ and BRBFAQ and I cant find what you are referring too.
Sorry to be a pain, but can you or someone else please show where this stated Not trying to be pedantic, I genuinely want to know in case it comes up in one of my games.
6000 pts of Foot Guard
"I once gave the order to one of my platoons to fix bayonets and charge a squad of genestealers. If they believed in the emperor hard enough they could win... I don't think they believed enough..."
@Fatboynoslim it's not something in the FAQ that your missing,
I think it's just the order of operations that your doing in a different order.
As others have said:
1.The passengers are not affected by auras. Fine
2. The passengers are affected by any modifiers that affect the vehicle.
3. The vehicle is affected by auras, including ones that give it a modifier.
4. Passengers get the +1 not because they are affected by the aura but because they are in a vehicle affected by a modifier.
I have a question, that I don´t think have been discussed earlier.
When we deploy our army, we can either deploy it in deep-strike reserv or as a "blip". The blip can not be within 9" from an enemy unit, and an enemy unit can not get whithin 9" of the blip. One of my regular opponents have just bought 20 of the "new" infiltrators. If he were to get to get to deploy first, he could teoretically deploy his infintrators right outside my deploymentzone. Which would mean that i would lose 9" of my deplymentzone. Or is there something that we are missing?
KhazModan wrote: I have a question, that I don´t think have been discussed earlier.
When we deploy our army, we can either deploy it in deep-strike reserv or as a "blip". The blip can not be within 9" from an enemy unit, and an enemy unit can not get whithin 9" of the blip. One of my regular opponents have just bought 20 of the "new" infiltrators. If he were to get to get to deploy first, he could teoretically deploy his infintrators right outside my deploymentzone. Which would mean that i would lose 9" of my deplymentzone. Or is there something that we are missing?
I believe, these Primaris infiltrators can only deploy 9 inch outside the enemies deployment zone. If he would be that bold then you can easily add 3 blieps (stratagem) and move 3 blieps (stratagem) and put 3 blieps underground (stratagem). Deployment would not be an issue but arriving close with 'deep strike' is another thing. But on the other hand, the enemy player just spend 400+ points on 20 primaris models with low damage output. Jackal bikes with demolition charge are good at removing these units and you could also use perfect ambush, +1 charge bonuses and reroll charge/dice for getting a unit in close combat. If you got the range, you could hit the primaris with a single rock saw, kill one or two and trap the unit from falling back and kill it in his own close combat phase.
This is also a place where genestealers shine - move and advance and charge means on average you go about 17", and if they have set up 12" from your DZ you can start from around a corner. Then your next move (assuming you survive) lands you in their DZ...
[edited later on reflection] or you could gain basically the same movement by disembarking any other unit from a transport and charging instead.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/06 04:33:05
Jackal Alphus
Primus re-roll to wound 1s (if i remember correctly)
Certain warlord traits etc
What weapons do I actually try to have benefit from these?
When I've marked my enemy's big monster with all these bonuses, what do I actually kill it with?
Mining lasers are super short range.
Atalan ridgerunners seem pretty bad for pure firepower.
Goliath trucks have bad firepower too.
Brood brothers stuff isn't <CULT> and can't benefit from the buffs.
What do I actually shoot with?
ph34r's Forgeworld Phobos blog, current WIP: Iron Warriors and Skaven Tau +From Iron Cometh Strength+ +From Strength Cometh Will+ +From Will Cometh Faith+ +From Faith Cometh Honor+ +From Honor Cometh Iron+
The Polito form is dead, insect. Are you afraid? What is it you fear? The end of your trivial existence?
When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence.
There isn't really that much shooty stuff in the codex. Neophytes with mining lasers, handflamer acolytes, jackals with demo charges. They are all lacking in one way or another. Most often range.
I believe it's much more effective to take shooty stuff in AM or even Tyranid detachments. And bring characters that benefit melee instead.
Mellon wrote: There isn't really that much shooty stuff in the codex. Neophytes with mining lasers, handflamer acolytes, jackals with demo charges. They are all lacking in one way or another. Most often range.
I believe it's much more effective to take shooty stuff in AM or even Tyranid detachments. And bring characters that benefit melee instead.
I sometimes take 3x 10 man squads of neophytes with 2x mining lasers each in a bladed cog detachment with a jackal alphus and a magus with the bladed cog warlord trait to re-roll wounds on a target unit. Deep strike the magus and neophytes near the target unit and within 6" of the jackal alphus for the +1 to hit. 6 lascannon shots hitting on 3's and wounding on 3's re-rolling.
A rusted claw detachment with 5 jackals+demo charges mathematically does a few more wounds but costs 4 CP for the strat combo.
The new Genestealer Cult characters all got raised to $30 each, just a heads-up in case you wanted to get some for cheaper before other outlets catch on. Ridgerunner was also increased to $50
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/07/08 20:37:10
The biggest difficulty was deciding on the Acolytes - Debated 15 man unit (11 w hand flamers, 4 demo, cult icon) and 5 man min unit, but too tight on points.
Didn't wanna go for the super competitive 20 hand flamers or 6 rock saws (besides points not allowing for it), and think this gives a good balance/variety for semi-competitive.
Thoughts?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/09 09:28:08
The biggest difficulty was deciding on the Acolytes - Debated 15 man unit (11 w hand flamers, 4 demo, cult icon) and 5 man min unit, but too tight on points.
Didn't wanna go for the super competitive 20 hand flamers or 6 rock saws (besides points not allowing for it), and think this gives a good balance/variety for semi-competitive.
Thoughts?
Yeah, I get what you say about the acolytes. You are probably better off swapping the acolytes with demo charges for another unit of jackals with demo charges. Or maybe scrap them all together, because as it is now, you have three units that really wants the Lying in Wait stratagem. And that's not optimal.
Also, there are some lists you are going to struggle seriously against with that little shooting. Imagine a drukhari cabal list with flying transports and vehicles everywhere for example. Also a list with three knights (or two knights and an armiger) are good gatekeeper lists to compare against.
The biggest difficulty was deciding on the Acolytes - Debated 15 man unit (11 w hand flamers, 4 demo, cult icon) and 5 man min unit, but too tight on points.
Didn't wanna go for the super competitive 20 hand flamers or 6 rock saws (besides points not allowing for it), and think this gives a good balance/variety for semi-competitive.
Thoughts?
Yeah, I get what you say about the acolytes. You are probably better off swapping the acolytes with demo charges for another unit of jackals with demo charges. Or maybe scrap them all together, because as it is now, you have three units that really wants the Lying in Wait stratagem. And that's not optimal.
Also, there are some lists you are going to struggle seriously against with that little shooting. Imagine a drukhari cabal list with flying transports and vehicles everywhere for example. Also a list with three knights (or two knights and an armiger) are good gatekeeper lists to compare against.
Ah thats a good point, think I was leaning towards the Jackals more for the cool factor more than anything. What are some good recommendations to increase the shooting in general?
Imho, shooting is best done by AM brood brothers or Tyranids.
Basilisks, wyverns, Vultures, tank commanders from AM.
Hive guard or termagaunts with devourers from Tyranids.
If you want to shoot with GSC you use neophytes with mining lasers, jackals with demo charges, acolytes with hand flamers or possibly brood brother mortar teams.
I guess I'm left at a bit of a loss of what to use the Jackal Alphus for. Bam, +1 to hit for all my guys shooting at the target, but what are those guys? 24" mining lasers on foot troops?
ph34r's Forgeworld Phobos blog, current WIP: Iron Warriors and Skaven Tau +From Iron Cometh Strength+ +From Strength Cometh Will+ +From Will Cometh Faith+ +From Faith Cometh Honor+ +From Honor Cometh Iron+
The Polito form is dead, insect. Are you afraid? What is it you fear? The end of your trivial existence?
When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence.
I guess I'm left at a bit of a loss of what to use the Jackal Alphus for. Bam, +1 to hit for all my guys shooting at the target, but what are those guys? 24" mining lasers on foot troops?
Pretty much. And demo charges from atalan Jackals. Possibly ridgerunner, but 80+ p is too much for a single mining laser.
I guess I'm left at a bit of a loss of what to use the Jackal Alphus for. Bam, +1 to hit for all my guys shooting at the target, but what are those guys? 24" mining lasers on foot troops?
You can drop the Alphus and Kelermorph in 2nd-turn with squads of neophytes with either lasers or seismic cannons — which will be in 12" range for the better damage profiles — or put the neophytes in goliath trucks and rush them up the board to get in firing range.
If you take Bladed Cog neophytes, their autoguns, grenade launchers, and two short-range lascannons hit on 3's with the Jackal buff, along with 4's for the Twin Autocannons and Stubber while it moves up — if your opponent lets it get within 6" of something you can use it's demo charge, which also hits on 3's.Granted the truck will blow up easy and Neophytes will keel over to a small breeze — but it's a decent weapons platform, it adds a solid amount of 1st-turn board points, and the trucker squads become very annoying for your opponent if they aren't brought down before you deep strike in 2nd turn.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/07/09 18:29:51
Mellon wrote: Imho, shooting is best done by AM brood brothers or Tyranids.
Basilisks, wyverns, Vultures, tank commanders from AM.
Hive guard or termagaunts with devourers from Tyranids.
If you want to shoot with GSC you use neophytes with mining lasers, jackals with demo charges, acolytes with hand flamers or possibly brood brother mortar teams.
Righto tried to tweak it and made two lists w more shooting:
Mellon wrote: Imho, shooting is best done by AM brood brothers or Tyranids.
Basilisks, wyverns, Vultures, tank commanders from AM.
Hive guard or termagaunts with devourers from Tyranids.
If you want to shoot with GSC you use neophytes with mining lasers, jackals with demo charges, acolytes with hand flamers or possibly brood brother mortar teams.
Righto tried to tweak it and made two lists w more shooting:
Please excuse if I'm missing the mark with these, pretty new to GSC so just trying to wrap my head around all the options!
In the second list i'd swap out the neophytes for brood brothers to save 13-18 points per unit and add in another 2 jackals with demo charges to make 2x 5 jackal units. The leftover points could be used for another acolyte w/ rocksaw
jifel wrote: I’ve also been running 20 Aberrants and have talked to Nick extensively on the subject. Their durability is much better than Acolytes and that’s very important. They don’t have the same “here’s a dead knight” factor, but otherwise hit many mid-tier targets better, and the ability to fight in death is absolutely crucial in the Ork or chaos matchup. I started out with 65 Acolytes/10 Aberrants in my gsc lists, and have switched to 35 Acolytes/20 Aberrants and I’m honestly getting much better results.
Aberrants also have a smaller footprint as mentioned above and can hide in terrain much more easily.
I'm getting back into GSC again, and I like me some Aberrants. Would you mind posting your current list? Would be nice to have a template to work with.
Btw, Nanavati is playing for team England on this years ETC, sporting 3x10 Aberrants, among other things. Yeah I know it's a team list, but still cool.
I'm currently working on this list. It's for a small friendship tournament with unusual restrictions: 1000p, one detachment, min size units only. So I decided to base it around aberrants, partly because they are actually dangerous at minimum size and partly because I love the models. These restricitons means this is more a listbuilding exercise than a template for regular listbuilding.
I'm really curious to see how Nanavatis army does!
ph34r wrote: I guess I'm left at a bit of a loss of what to use the Jackal Alphus for. Bam, +1 to hit for all my guys shooting at the target, but what are those guys? 24" mining lasers on foot troops?
I actually use the +1 to hit against infantry targets more than vehicles, since most of the time my melee threats can handle armor and the primary concern of the on-table portion of the army is to clear the way for them. Generally Jackal packs and Goliath Trucks make up the bulk of my shooting, so the Alphus tends to hang out with the Trucks while her packmates rove ahead (taking advantage of the extended leash). I tend to leave the Mining Lasers to the Wolfquads and give Neophytes Seismic Cannons instead for anti-infantry work, as Wolfquads get the benefits of an extended leash from the Alphus and superior mobility to better take advantage of the weapon. Jackal Packs are also a bit more durable than Neophyte squads due to their to-hit penalty and toughness bump, so the laser will generally live longer too.
Also worth noting that as a stand-alone the Alphus is a rather handy tool to keep lightly armored support characters suppressed. She also makes a good warlord since her innate -1 to hit makes her an unappealing target most of the time and her stand-off nature tends to keep her safe while the other characters tend to require being at the front lines to do what they need to do.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/07/12 21:26:54
The idea is the Patriarch and the Iconward camp behind the 3 brood brothers and the 3 Neophyte Squads walking up the table. The Shotgun Neophytes and anything else not called “mortar team” or “Acolyte Hybrid” starts on the board. Acolytes get swept up with the Stratagem and then we drop one Laying in wait and one Perfect ambush on turns 2 and 3.
Kelermorph does his thing, sometimes the Shotgun Neophytes join him, other times they just grab linebreaker and harass backfield objective holders.
The idea is the Patriarch and the Iconward camp behind the 3 brood brothers and the 3 Neophyte Squads walking up the table. The Shotgun Neophytes and anything else not called “mortar team” or “Acolyte Hybrid” starts on the board. Acolytes get swept up with the Stratagem and then we drop one Laying in wait and one Perfect ambush on turns 2 and 3.
Kelermorph does his thing, sometimes the Shotgun Neophytes join him, other times they just grab linebreaker and harass backfield objective holders.
+1 str at 6" is not worth the loss of range. triply so when you won't even lying in wait them because you have the flamer mob and bikes taking up those. Switch the shotgun neophytes back to autoguns.
Your cults and what units are under what kind of look like a mess. Buffs are in the wrong place. Remember almost everything is <Cult> Keyworded and can't cross benefit.
Kelemorph should be in the Rusted Claw detachment to be able to buff your more shooty neophytes.
Patriarch should be rusted claw to stop moral from destroying your Neophytes.
Abberants but without Twisted Helix? Why are you missing out on the fight twice strat? You don't want to risk them failing their charge either they are the prime Perfect Ambush target and don't need 4AE.
Clamavus can't buff the charge range of any of your combat units.
I would almost completely switch the TH and 4AE detachments. If you want the str on your acolytes use the Iconward.
Honestly I've been playing Mono-GSC lately and I found it to be more powerful than Tyr + GSC. Tyranids are a one-trick pony at best right now and literally eats you CPs for the classic GS Slingshot combo + attack twice, leaving you with few CPs to do all the good tricks GSC has to offer.
Also I've been building all my lists using a hefty contingent of Neophytes with support Characters like Sanctus/Alphus/Iconward to give the Cult a decent early game (since Brood Brothers literally do no damage and are there only for detachment filling purposes) and players like Nick Navanati who have been playing GSC since their release in February seem to agree with me (I decided to go with Hive Cult Neophytes and Grenade Launcher, Nick went for Bladed Cog Neophytes with Webbers and Mining Lasers).
KurtAngle2 wrote: Honestly I've been playing Mono-GSC lately and I found it to be more powerful than Tyr + GSC. Tyranids are a one-trick pony at best right now and literally eats you CPs for the classic GS Slingshot combo + attack twice, leaving you with few CPs to do all the good tricks GSC has to offer.
Also I've been building all my lists using a hefty contingent of Neophytes with support Characters like Sanctus/Alphus/Iconward to give the Cult a decent early game (since Brood Brothers literally do no damage and are there only for detachment filling purposes) and players like Nick Navanati who have been playing GSC since their release in February seem to agree with me (I decided to go with Hive Cult Neophytes and Grenade Launcher, Nick went for Bladed Cog Neophytes with Webbers and Mining Lasers).
How do the Hive Cult creed work out for you? Does it give a lot of resilience?
KurtAngle2 wrote: Honestly I've been playing Mono-GSC lately and I found it to be more powerful than Tyr + GSC. Tyranids are a one-trick pony at best right now and literally eats you CPs for the classic GS Slingshot combo + attack twice, leaving you with few CPs to do all the good tricks GSC has to offer.
Also I've been building all my lists using a hefty contingent of Neophytes with support Characters like Sanctus/Alphus/Iconward to give the Cult a decent early game (since Brood Brothers literally do no damage and are there only for detachment filling purposes) and players like Nick Navanati who have been playing GSC since their release in February seem to agree with me (I decided to go with Hive Cult Neophytes and Grenade Launcher, Nick went for Bladed Cog Neophytes with Webbers and Mining Lasers).
How do the Hive Cult creed work out for you? Does it give a lot of resilience?
Not really, it's the best though for damage output since it gives an additional +1 to Hit on one unit and the reroll 1s to hit that you prolly give to a Brood coven Magus. The creed bonuses are not bad per se but you are taking that for Warlord + Stratagem which are the best thing about it.
KurtAngle2 wrote: Honestly I've been playing Mono-GSC lately and I found it to be more powerful than Tyr + GSC. Tyranids are a one-trick pony at best right now and literally eats you CPs for the classic GS Slingshot combo + attack twice, leaving you with few CPs to do all the good tricks GSC has to offer.
Also I've been building all my lists using a hefty contingent of Neophytes with support Characters like Sanctus/Alphus/Iconward to give the Cult a decent early game (since Brood Brothers literally do no damage and are there only for detachment filling purposes) and players like Nick Navanati who have been playing GSC since their release in February seem to agree with me (I decided to go with Hive Cult Neophytes and Grenade Launcher, Nick went for Bladed Cog Neophytes with Webbers and Mining Lasers).
How do the Hive Cult creed work out for you? Does it give a lot of resilience?
Not really, it's the best though for damage output since it gives an additional +1 to Hit on one unit and the reroll 1s to hit that you prolly give to a Brood coven Magus. The creed bonuses are not bad per se but you are taking that for Warlord + Stratagem which are the best thing about it.
Ah of course, that makes a lot of sense.
Thanks for the explanation.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Could you share an example of what one of your lists look like?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/15 10:12:21
6000 pts of Foot Guard
Not trying to be pedantic, I genuinely want to know in case it comes up in one of my games.
