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There are a couple of things bothering me about this unit. I love the concept, and I would choose them always in my team but I am not for a couple of reasons I would like to discuss here.

As their background, they are the equivalent to every marine captain. They actually have the same profile as the chaos lord, their purpose is not only magic, they can also melee fight properly. They also have the favour and bless of Tzeentch, who protects its followers with awesome invulnerable saves (see rubrics, sot, tzaangors...).

So the first thing bothering me is background related. As far as I know, every marine-lord (see captains, chaos lords...) has a 4+ invulnerable save, in every chapter, in every book. Exalted sorcerers are the equivalent in the TSons legion, but they don't have that save, they have 5+ instead. Why? Why are they not equal but less if Tzeentch is suposed to be protecting them? They have the same invulnerable than a simple rubric of tzaangor. Why don't GW match the invulnerable save to captains?

And the second thing bothering me is about internal balance. Why would someone choose an exalted sorcerer over Ahriman? For +10/+15 points Ahriman has +1 invulnerable save, casts 1 more psychic power and casts and denies the witch with a +1 modifier. It seems to me like a huge stats&rules diference for just 10-15 points. I understand Ahriman is OP, but how can ESorcerers be so bad compared, considering they are similar units to fill similar roles in the army.

My suggestion would be give ESorcerers 4+ invulnerable and access to familiar (the one in the terminator sorc card). Will GW listen to me?

To address the first point, I am glad they don't have an effective 3++. There are too many sources of 3++ in the game as is, and I think it is something should be curved. It's just not fun ultimately. Any 3++ in the game should, in my opinion, be situational rather than always available. I appreciate where you're coming from though, but ultimately you can't directly compare an Exalted Sorcerer to a Captain. They are Psykers. They take some qualities of a lord, and some of a sorcerer. They are better than each in some ways, there's no need for them to be better than both in all ways.

Second point, yes their power relative to Ahriman is an issue. But it's not unique to TSons. There are many factions with Special Characters that are just generic characters but better. I don't think this is an issue with Exalted Sorcerers though, which are great if you don't consider Ahriman. It's an issue of making Ahriman too similar, but better. The way to deal with an OP unit is not to improve other units to make them also OP.

I take exalteds.

- Reroll 1s when Ahriman can't baby sit
- Extra BS/WS/W/A over Sorcerer
- Can be on a disk
- Can be fun to run Seer's Bane

I *would* like them to have a 4++ and more options, but they're ok otherwise. After all...you can only ever have one Ahriman.

Ahriman is crazy good. Exalteds are just good. If anything, Ahri should go up in price, rather than exalteds getting buffed. Seers Bane on a disc is a real threat to most armies, and they are solid buffer/caster units. 5++ is a bit naff though, agreed.

Captains dont have smite that always casts on a 5+ at 30" range. If anything exalted sorceres need to be nerfed. The army gimmick is stupid good, and they should not have access to full smites that manifest on a 5+ all the time at 30 inches.

Exalted Sorcerers gave their a 1++ to the Daemon Princes so they got 4++ instead of the usual 5++.

The thing I find odd is that one of the Exalted Sorcerer models (the one with demonic feet) is clearly floating in the air.

I'd assumed that this was their version of a Jump Pack, but was rather puzzled to see that (rulewise) they can only achieve flight via a Disk of Tzeench - which has a very different model.

 vipoid wrote:
The thing I find odd is that one of the Exalted Sorcerer models (the one with demonic feet) is clearly floating in the air.

I'd assumed that this was their version of a Jump Pack, but was rather puzzled to see that (rulewise) they can only achieve flight via a Disk of Tzeench - which has a very different model.

It's just a fluffy representation of all the warp energy flowing through him, lifting him off his feet. I don't think it's meant to depict controlled, sustained flight.

 mokoshkana wrote:
Captains dont have smite that always casts on a 5+ at 30" range. If anything exalted sorceres need to be nerfed. The army gimmick is stupid good, and they should not have access to full smites that manifest on a 5+ all the time at 30 inches.

Problem is that its not an army gimmik, but an HQ gimmik.

The rest of the army lacks a gimmik of its own, as TS technically don't have and CT if you are not a psyker (so cultists, helbrutes, heck even tzaangors technically doesn't care what heretic astardes/tzeentch army they are a part of), and for anyone without a real smite (like rubrics and scarabs) is a rather lame duck CT too.

So you got awesome HQs, but they are a needed crutch to the nothingness the rest of the army has, and that naturally leads them to being souptastic.

 Stux wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
The thing I find odd is that one of the Exalted Sorcerer models (the one with demonic feet) is clearly floating in the air.

I'd assumed that this was their version of a Jump Pack, but was rather puzzled to see that (rulewise) they can only achieve flight via a Disk of Tzeench - which has a very different model.

It's just a fluffy representation of all the warp energy flowing through him, lifting him off his feet. I don't think it's meant to depict controlled, sustained flight.

I guess, but it looks identical to the permanently-floating Disk.

Seems like a missed opportunity to me.

What bothers me about exalted sorcs is that they have a kit jam-packed with amazing, unique looking bits, literally like 10 different staff heads, crazy mutant bird parts, guns with magical little mutant arms loading them, floating legs, and their rules have absolutely zero variation whatsoever.

I personally love the Thousand Sons army and how it plays. Are there maybe a few things about it that are odd? Sure. But in general I find the force fun to play and dynamic. The models are great (though horrifying to paint well!).

It's my favorite army by far right now.

 BoomWolf wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:
Captains dont have smite that always casts on a 5+ at 30" range. If anything exalted sorceres need to be nerfed. The army gimmick is stupid good, and they should not have access to full smites that manifest on a 5+ all the time at 30 inches.

Problem is that its not an army gimmik, but an HQ gimmik.

The rest of the army lacks a gimmik of its own, as TS technically don't have and CT if you are not a psyker (so cultists, helbrutes, heck even tzaangors technically doesn't care what heretic astardes/tzeentch army they are a part of), and for anyone without a real smite (like rubrics and scarabs) is a rather lame duck CT too.

So you got awesome HQs, but they are a needed crutch to the nothingness the rest of the army has, and that naturally leads them to being souptastic.

Rubrics and scarabs may not care about the smite buff, but they sure like +6 range on powers.

Not as much as you'd think.

More often than not I'm finding myself within the non-boosted range for whatever spell he's casting anyway without even trying.

Maybe now with the new bolter rule they'll be a bit more spread out, but I doubt it would make that much difference.

They are a good unit, but I wished they'd do something more creative. Split the unit into multiple cult options (Corvidae, Pyrae, Athanean, Raptora), each with a unique contribution to the army.

I feel like the army is too psychic power heavy. I'd rather a few meaningful powers than just endless smite. I'd take away Rubric/Scarab Occult ability to cast and replace it with an ability.

Umbros wrote:
I feel like the army is too psychic power heavy. I'd rather a few meaningful powers than just endless smite. I'd take away Rubric/Scarab Occult ability to cast and replace it with an ability.

This! I hate playing against them, even as CWE. There is just too much smite spam going on from this army, which is frustrating.

They need more wargear options and a 4++ base. As it is right now there are no reasons to take them over a Daemon Prince or Ahriman. The more I play with my 1ksons the more I realize all the missed opportunities they could have done and how rushed the codex was.

The Salt Mine wrote:
As it is right now there are no reasons to take them over a Daemon Prince or Ahriman.

That's true, but to me the problem is that Ahriman is far too cheap, and 1KS Daemon Princes either need a points hike or be dropped to a 5+ invul, like the other Daemon Prince flavours.

Exalted on disc with Seers Bane is 43pts cheaper than a DP, and comparable in CC threat against characters, knights, etc. People don't 'see' it as a CC beast with 5 attacks rerolling 1s (going up to S12 & A6 with diabolic strength). That's a pretty good reason to take one.

Eh I don't think the daemon prince or Arhiman need a nerf they are one of the few actual good things about our codex. As far as the seers bane is concerned though I either have to pay one CP which I consider way more valuable than 43 points or not take the Helm of the 3rd eye which is our best relic hands down. Not worth it IMO. As I said they just need more wargear options. GW could have easily given them different kinds of staffs rather than just a force staff with the amount of staff heads the kit came with.

 BoomWolf wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:
Captains dont have smite that always casts on a 5+ at 30" range. If anything exalted sorceres need to be nerfed. The army gimmick is stupid good, and they should not have access to full smites that manifest on a 5+ all the time at 30 inches.

Problem is that its not an army gimmik, but an HQ gimmik.

The rest of the army lacks a gimmik of its own, as TS technically don't have and CT if you are not a psyker (so cultists, helbrutes, heck even tzaangors technically doesn't care what heretic astardes/tzeentch army they are a part of), and for anyone without a real smite (like rubrics and scarabs) is a rather lame duck CT too.

So you got awesome HQs, but they are a needed crutch to the nothingness the rest of the army has, and that naturally leads them to being souptastic.

Thousand Sons aren't alone when it comes to an Army Rule not being applied everywhere. Death Guard obviously come to mind, but then you get weird situations like Imperial Fists not benefitting Centurions (since they already Ignore Cover), Iron Hands Ven Dreads being just statistically worse, Iyanden not working most of the time, etc.

 mokoshkana wrote:
Captains dont have smite that always casts on a 5+ at 30" range. If anything exalted sorceres need to be nerfed. The army gimmick is stupid good, and they should not have access to full smites that manifest on a 5+ all the time at 30 inches.

But yet, for all of the overpoweredness of the 1ksons, they are not winning any tournaments? Once guard and eldar get a firm nerfing you can talk about smite spam.

Table wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:
Captains dont have smite that always casts on a 5+ at 30" range. If anything exalted sorceres need to be nerfed. The army gimmick is stupid good, and they should not have access to full smites that manifest on a 5+ all the time at 30 inches.

But yet, for all of the overpoweredness of the 1ksons, they are not winning any tournaments? Once guard and eldar get a firm nerfing you can talk about smite spam.

Eh smite spam was only good when Malefic Lords were 30 points. Now that you can't spend 300 points for 10 full smites its pretty balanced I think. Also where are you getting 30" from the 1ksons trait is only +6" smite is 18" so 24".

 mokoshkana wrote:
Captains dont have smite that always casts on a 5+ at 30" range. If anything exalted sorceres need to be nerfed. The army gimmick is stupid good, and they should not have access to full smites that manifest on a 5+ all the time at 30 inches.

Err...it's not like you really get to pick exactly where all your smites go. No one is running mass exalteds.

Well, if the goal is to mass smites, exalted isn't really good to begin with.

Goat shamans though...still pretty good at it. being 90 points with a disc to get around and an elixer to fix your first fail.
though, he'll do nothing but smiting.


Anyways, we can all agree exalted sorcerers are bland and boring.
The entire TS codex is rather lacking in flavor honestly.
Contrast TS with DG.

TS has 6 unique units and two characters, containing:
"Cultist plus"-the goats.
"Lord who is also sorcerer"-exalted sorcerers, who lack any special rules. replacing the lord.
"Upscaled rubrics" as scarabs, as they really do more of the same.
Then you got Enlightened and Shamans as the only real specials. and the vortex beast, who is a random mess. all "happen" to be AoS ports.
Oh, and an extra spell dicipline (that our non-HQ are locked to) who is arguably the worst in the game, with most spells having a strictly superior version in another codex.



DG one the other hand has
Lord of Contagion who is basically an alter lord, and comes in addition. (more choppy, no buffer)
Plaguecaster, who is an alternate sorcerer, and also comes in addition.
Poxwalkers-"cultists plus" much like TS
Blightbringer-a minor LD debuffer, and a speed buffer.
Blightspawn-counter assault, character slayer. (grenade buffer sidenote)
Biologus-Grenade buffer and expert, suicide bomber. (combos with blightspawn)
Plague Surgeon-Durability buffer
Tallyman-CC buffer and self contained CP engine.
Deathshroud-a bodyguard terminator unit (who buffs whoever it bodyguards to boot!)
Blightlord-a killy terminator unit (basically "Upscaled plague marines" though)
Bloat Drone-speedy infantry mulcher.
Blighthauler-anti armor cover generator
Pleagueburst-artillery tank

Sure, not all of them are working very well, and some are flops-but that's so much more options, and so much more room to work with to create your army.
13 new units for the DG vs only 6 for the TS, and the DG give away 2 less "core CSM" picks as well. plus, DG doesn't drop all the CSM guns (plasmas, meltas, etc) so even the same number of units got more options.

TS just...doesn't have this variety. and having our "legion tactics" not even effect a large swat of units (cultists, helbrutes, heck even our "unique" tzaangors and actually unique enlightened don't care if they are in a TS detachment or not) seriously does not help.


The TS codex as a whole is lacking flavor-wise and in variety. not just the exalted.

You're right that the two armies are created incredibly differently, but it makes sense. Thousand Sons really don't need any characters outside the Exalted Sorcerers. Granted I wouldn't have minded a super Lord kinda like what we could make from 7th, but beggars can't be choosers. After all, Exalted get the basic WS/BS2+, a multi-damage melee weapon, and buffing with the Psyker powers.

Do you really need more characters at that point? Not really. Fix the psyker tables and you're good.

Except it really IS a chaos lord, with powers.

And powers just can never match the DG having a whole slew of smaller characters each doing their own thing.
Not to mention wide variety of units doing different roles.


They don't need to be the same, obviously. heck being the same would be a bad thing.

But TS in general really lack in options.
Having a choice of "spells" is not choice, because there are very few spells, and a hell lot of casters, who compete with each other on spells.
And in bigger games, lets say you play 3k? you really CANT use that many psykers any more, as there is nothing left to cast.

On the subject of Death Guard, how many successful competitive lists are anything other than three Plagueburst Crawlers, a Daemon Prince, and a ton of Nurgle Daemons?

As to the 'fantastic characters'.....

Lord of Contagion - Slooooow melee HQ, with no re-roll aura? No thanks.
Plaguecaster - OK, but their mortal wound gimmick only works within 7" (I'd rather have a better caster for 110 points)
Blightbringer - Speed buff, and.....very little else
Blightspawn - Very good, but also VERY random.
Biologus - Offers nothing other than the grenade buff, which has poor synergy with Plague Marine MSU
Plague Surgeon - Very weak buff over a very small radius (great model though)
Tallyman - Great melee buffer. Problem is that Pox Walkers are poor now, and melee PM are too expensive.

Given that "competitive TS" is mostly HQs and then nurgle allies, the TS is not really faring better.

Also, my point here was directed at fluff and variety. Balance is subject to change, but having options is always having options.

The DG characters may not be the best, but they exist. They give you fun things to play with in the casual table and small games.
And they give you some pretty models.

 BoomWolf wrote:


Anyways, we can all agree exalted sorcerers are bland and boring.
The entire TS codex is rather lacking in flavor honestly.

I dont' know. Exalteds by themselves are a bit boring, but the spells they toss are not. Though I do find myself yearning to run Seer's Bane to get a little more excitement out of them.

There are some cool and under-utilized stratagems that bring flavor.

Then you got Enlightened and Shamans as the only real specials. and the vortex beast, who is a random mess. all "happen" to be AoS ports.

MVB isn't that random (to start). It's also quite fun to summon 30 horrors, a herald, and get them to S5 with the MVB and reroll 1s from a DP. I honestly would do this a lot more if it we'rent for the obnoxious move restriction on summoning.

Oh, and an extra spell dicipline (that our non-HQ are locked to) who is arguably the worst in the game, with most spells having a strictly superior version in another codex.

Really? I find it to be quite great. Aside from playing around with Boon all the spells are good. Doombolt a little less since it's situational and I often don't have room to cast it with the huge cost.