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Certain units have the ability to take wounds for characters, I would just like to clarify how this works.

Let us say for example that a lascannon shot hits the Swarmlord and successfully wounds it (who is near a unit of tyrant guard).

Which order is correct?

1. roll for damage for the lascannon, then roll the dice to see if i can pass off the wounds 2+.

2. Roll to see if I can pass the wound off to the tyrant guard then roll for damage.

It depends on the wording of the ability. In the case of Tyrant Guard, the wording clearly states that the effect is based off of the Hive Tyrant losing a wound, and not based on failing a save or being wounded or suffering damage. This means the damage has already been rolled for. As such, in this case, you would roll for the damage of the Lascannon, then roll dice to see how much of that damage you can pass off.

Note, this is different from other bodyguard abilities, that trigger off other situations. Saviour Protocols on T'au drones are based on being wounded, before saves are made.

Like Yarium says, it all depends on the wording of the rule because different rules work different ways.

In the case of Tyrant Guard, you roll after damage is inflicted, so if after failing a save your Tyrant suffers 4 damage, you roll 4 dice to see how many the Tyrant Guard take instead.

Also keep in mind you cannot stack something like Catalyst with bodyguards anymore due to the Ignoring Wounds errata.

It's also worth noting that things like the Tyrant Guard work against anything that causes your Tyrant to lose a wound. So the Guard can take the damage from things like psychic powers or exploding vehicles.

Other abilities like the Tau's saviour protocols are different. That activates when something is "wounded by an enemy attack". So it doesn't, for example, protect against psychic powers or exploding vehicles. When it does kick in it shunts the entire attack over immediately after the wound roll which is before you actually do any damage (and also before the target unit makes their save). This means that a Tau shield drone can convert a D6 damage roll from a las cannon into a single mortal wound.

If the las cannon were to have hit a Hive Tyrant then the D6 damage would have been worked out first and then each individual point of damage might be transferred to a bodyguard.

So real the rule carefully and check the relevant FAQs for any updates or clarifications.

 Uther wrote:
It's also worth noting that things like the Tyrant Guard work against anything that causes your Tyrant to lose a wound. So the Guard can take the damage from things like psychic powers or exploding vehicles.

Other abilities like the Tau's saviour protocols are different. That activates when something is "wounded by an enemy attack". So it doesn't, for example, protect against psychic powers or exploding vehicles. When it does kick in it shunts the entire attack over immediately after the wound roll which is before you actually do any damage. This means that a Tau shield drone can convert a D6 damage roll from a las cannon into a single mortal wound.

If the las cannon were to have hit a Hive Tyrant then the D6 damage would have been worked out first and then each individual point of damage might be transferred to a bodyguard.

So real the rule carefully and check the relevant FAQs for any updates or clarifications.

I am not convinced the debate about if a psychic power is an 'attack' is as clear cut as you're presenting it...

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

 Uther wrote:
It's also worth noting that things like the Tyrant Guard work against anything that causes your Tyrant to lose a wound. So the Guard can take the damage from things like psychic powers or exploding vehicles.

Other abilities like the Tau's saviour protocols are different. That activates when something is "wounded by an enemy attack". So it doesn't, for example, protect against psychic powers or exploding vehicles. When it does kick in it shunts the entire attack over immediately after the wound roll which is before you actually do any damage. This means that a Tau shield drone can convert a D6 damage roll from a las cannon into a single mortal wound.

If the las cannon were to have hit a Hive Tyrant then the D6 damage would have been worked out first and then each individual point of damage might be transferred to a bodyguard.

So real the rule carefully and check the relevant FAQs for any updates or clarifications.

I am not convinced the debate about if a psychic power is an 'attack' is as clear cut as you're presenting it...

It really is that clear cut, because the FAQ says so.

T'au FAQ wrote:Q: For the purposes of the Saviour Protocols ability, what exactly constitutes an attack?
A: In this context, it is an attack made with a ranged or melee weapon.

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
I am not convinced the debate about if a psychic power is an 'attack' is as clear cut as you're presenting it...

I believe that it is... The Tau FAQ gives this clarification which is what I'm basing that on:

Q: For the purposes of the Saviour Protocols ability, what exactly constitutes an attack?
A: In this context, it is an attack made with a ranged or melee weapon.

The psychic power would have to specify that ot was making a shooting attack to override the faq otherwise its not

 Uther wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
I am not convinced the debate about if a psychic power is an 'attack' is as clear cut as you're presenting it...

I believe that it is... The Tau FAQ gives this clarification which is what I'm basing that on:

Q: For the purposes of the Saviour Protocols ability, what exactly constitutes an attack?
A: In this context, it is an attack made with a ranged or melee weapon.

Hmm. It says 'in this context'. The context being saviour protocols. That implies that in other contexts other things may constitute an attack.

 Stux wrote:

 Uther wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
I am not convinced the debate about if a psychic power is an 'attack' is as clear cut as you're presenting it...

I believe that it is... The Tau FAQ gives this clarification which is what I'm basing that on:

Q: For the purposes of the Saviour Protocols ability, what exactly constitutes an attack?
A: In this context, it is an attack made with a ranged or melee weapon.

Hmm. It says 'in this context'. The context being saviour protocols. That implies that in other contexts other things may constitute an attack.

Sorry, I should have clarified that I was only talking about Saviour Protocols and not making any wider statement.

Ah, then yes absolutely. It's a permissive ruleset. If the psychic power doesn't explicitly say it's a ranged or melee weapon then it is clear from this FAQ that it is not an attack for the purposes of Saviour Protocols.

So if a Hive Tyrant loses 6 wounds from a lascannon but there is one tyrant guard next to him and the roll to pass off the wounds is 5 2+'s and a 1, what happens?

Does the guard take 5 wounds and is overkilled, or do you allocate them one at a time so that 3 kill the guard and the other 2 would be on the hive tyrant after all?

 Tonberry7 wrote:
So if a Hive Tyrant loses 6 wounds from a lascannon but there is one tyrant guard next to him and the roll to pass off the wounds is 5 2+'s and a 1, what happens?

Does the guard take 5 wounds and is overkilled, or do you allocate them one at a time so that 3 kill the guard and the other 2 would be on the hive tyrant after all?

You roll one by one.

Roll to intercept, allocate the wound. Repeat until all the wounds are done, or the Tyrant Guard are dead and the Hive Tyrant will take remaining wounds.

Important to note about Saviour Protocols is that the whole debate about "what is an attack" is irrelevant in the first place.

Saviour Protocols cannot ever 'take' Mortal Wounds because they require an enemy unit to be wounded by an attack, and Mortal Wounds do not wound or cause a unit to be wounded.

In the Core Rules it's stated that you do not make a Wound Roll for Mortal Wounds. Under the "Resolving Attacks" sequence, a Wound Roll is solely responsible for: "If an attack scores a hit, you will then need to roll another dice to see if the attack successfully wounds the target."

Not relevant. Mortal Wounds cause a Wound with Damage Characteristic of 1. It is still a wound.

 alextroy wrote:
Not relevant. Mortal Wounds cause a Wound with Damage Characteristic of 1. It is still a wound.

Very much this. A mortal wound still wounds, you just don't need to roll to do so. The real problem is GW overloading the word "wound" much like DnD overloads the word "level".

At least D&D is good enough to add adjectives to Level so that you know what the heck you are talking about.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
Not relevant. Mortal Wounds cause a Wound with Damage Characteristic of 1. It is still a wound.

Very much this. A mortal wound still wounds, you just don't need to roll to do so.

Agreed, it definitely works with Mortal Wounds. A unit suffering a mortal wound is wounded by that attack.

 Stux wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
Not relevant. Mortal Wounds cause a Wound with Damage Characteristic of 1. It is still a wound.

Very much this. A mortal wound still wounds, you just don't need to roll to do so.

Agreed, it definitely works with Mortal Wounds. A unit suffering a mortal wound is wounded by that attack.

This just isn't true. "Wounded" is a very specific term if you read the Core Rules, it applies solely to something that has had a successful Wound Roll rolled against it. Nowhere else does it say that something has been "wounded."

Perhaps you're thinking of "Losing a Wound" which occur in FNP type rules, which is something completely different than being wounded.

No, a unit suffering a mortal wound is wounded.

 Stux wrote:
No, a unit suffering a mortal wound is wounded.

No, it's not. "Wounded" means something specific in 40k, we're not talking about the English language here.

If you read the "Resolving Attacks" sequence in the Core Rules, a Wound Roll is required to determine if the target is wounded. Mortal Wounds do not make Wound Rolls and thus cannot wound.

Perhaps I missed somewhere in the rules that state that Mortal Wounds have another method of wounding a target, if you've found it please share.

Emphasis Added:

Warhammer 40,000 Battle Primer wrote:Mortal Wounds
Some attacks infict mortal wounds – these are so powerful that no armour or force field can withstand their fury. Each mortal wound inflicts one point of damage on the target unit. Do not make a wound roll or saving throw (including invulnerable saves) against a mortal wound – just allocate it as you would any other wound and inflict damage to a model in the target unit.

So a Mortal Wound is a Wound. QED

Pakman184 wrote:

No, it's not. "Wounded" means something specific in 40k, we're not talking about the English language here.

If you read the "Resolving Attacks" sequence in the Core Rules, a Wound Roll is required to determine if the target is wounded. Mortal Wounds do not make Wound Rolls and thus cannot wound.

Perhaps I missed somewhere in the rules that state that Mortal Wounds have another method of wounding a target, if you've found it please share.

Agreed. There is no wound roll for MW. They inflict one point of damage, thus they dont wound. The name MW is not a good choice, as it implies it wounds, which it doesnt.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 alextroy wrote:
Emphasis Added:

Warhammer 40,000 Battle Primer wrote:Mortal Wounds
Some attacks infict mortal wounds – these are so powerful that no armour or force field can withstand their fury. Each mortal wound inflicts one point of damage on the target unit. Do not make a wound roll or saving throw (including invulnerable saves) against a mortal wound – just allocate it as you would any other wound and inflict damage to a model in the target unit.

So a Mortal Wound is a Wound. QED

You allocate it as you would with any other wound, but its not a wound.

The use of the phrase '... as you would any other wound...' instead of something like '... as you would a wound...' means that it is a wound.

 alextroy wrote:
Emphasis Added:

Warhammer 40,000 Battle Primer wrote:Mortal Wounds
Some attacks infict mortal wounds – these are so powerful that no armour or force field can withstand their fury. Each mortal wound inflicts one point of damage on the target unit. Do not make a wound roll or saving throw (including invulnerable saves) against a mortal wound – just allocate it as you would any other wound and inflict damage to a model in the target unit.

So a Mortal Wound is a Wound. QED

As p5freak said, you only allocate it like any other wound, that doesn't suddenly make it wound the target. There are multiple steps to resolving an attack and a Mortal Wound skips step 2 and step 4. Step 2 is what's required to determine if something is wounded.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ghaz wrote:
The use of the phrase '... as you would any other wound...' instead of something like '... as you would a wound...' means that it is a wound.

It means it's a Mortal Wound, yes. You can call it whatever you like, that doesn't change that said Mortal Wound cannot possibly wound an enemy, because you are required to roll a Wound Roll to determine if something is wounded.

Sorry, but the quoted rule says it is a wound just like any other wound.

 Ghaz wrote:
Sorry, but the quoted rule says it is a wound just like any other wound.

It's called a Mortal Wound, so by name alone it is indeed a wound (just a Mortal one).

That still doesn't change that you cannot wound an enemy with a Mortal Wound. Verbs are different than Nouns my dude.

 Ghaz wrote:
Sorry, but the quoted rule says it is a wound just like any other wound.

No, that is not what the quoted rule says.

Yes, it is because that is how English grammar works.

 p5freak wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 alextroy wrote:
Emphasis Added:

Warhammer 40,000 Battle Primer wrote:Mortal Wounds
Some attacks infict mortal wounds – these are so powerful that no armour or force field can withstand their fury. Each mortal wound inflicts one point of damage on the target unit. Do not make a wound roll or saving throw (including invulnerable saves) against a mortal wound – just allocate it as you would any other wound and inflict damage to a model in the target unit.

So a Mortal Wound is a Wound. QED

You allocate it as you would with any other wound, but its not a wound.

That's ridiculous. If it is allocated "as any other wound" then it IS a wound. As any other means that it belongs to the set of things that are wounds. It's basic English.