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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/05 19:59:25
Subject: Unclear Winners of Bolter Discipline
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Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets
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Summary
This post is a list of ideas on how the new beta bolter discipline could be used for maximum effect.
All adeptus Astartes and Heretic Astartes models gain this ability. Instead of the following the normal rules for rapid fire weapons, rapid fire weapons used by models with this ability make double the number of attacks of any of the following apply.
* The firing model's target is within half the weapon's maximum range
* The firing model remained stationary in the previous Movement phase
* The firing model is a terminator, biker, centurion or vehicle.
For the purposes of this ability, a rapid fire bolt weapon is any weapon with the rapid fire type whose profile includes the word 'bolt' (e.g. boltgun, bolt rifle, storm bolter, combi-bolter, hurrican bolter, inferfo bolter, etc)
This also applies when firing the boltgun profile of combi-weapons. What Does This Do?
The effect of the rule is that it extends the maximum damage range of bolt weapons.
Storm bolters were always able to deliver 4 shots per model within 12", now that range is extended to 24". The maximum damage has not been increased -- but the effective range of that maximum damage has been.
This is a big deal. Given the area of a circle is A=πr2, increasing the radius from 6" to 12", increases the overall area from 113.1" to 452.39". This is a massive increase in overall effective space on the board. I call this the "area of influence" for any particular effect in 40k.
Clear Winners
Centurions, bikes and terminators are the clear winners here, as they are able to move and shoot their bolters, throwing lots of shots downstream.
Vehicles with lots of bolter weapons (like storm ravens or LRC's) are also winners. Even the lowly rhino can now throw out 8 bolt shots a round.
SW Wolf Guard
Wolf Guard terminators can replace their melee weapon with a storm shield, which costs only 2 pts. on them since CA19, 2 points less than a power sword.
27 point 2 wound termies with 2+/3++ that can move and pump out 4 shots at 24" (which means they will be in range turn 1) are great.
Sure, with the 27 point build you lose any power weapons, but how useful are they in the first place? Against half the armies (anything gunline, ranged horde or boyz) they are wasted or will not see any use and actual melee units like genestealers will still rip you apart. Rather keep the unit cheap and focused on being a tanks and shooty midfield unit which are hard to respond to with most small arms. Throw a cheap power axe on the pack leader (who has the three attacks to make the investment worth it) and call it a day. Even a fist and particularly a hammer might be too much of a point sink IMO.
- Ragnar Blackmane
Not So Clear Winners
This is where the conversation get's interesting. Where else might there be winners with this new rule?
A lot of these wins will be complimented by points reduction in the 2018 CA.
Special Issue Ammo
Deathwatch ability of SIA synergies very well with this new rule. The idea that your bolt guns have special ammo for specific situations merges perfectly with an army shooting lots of bolter shots.
The beauty of this is that it provides lots of tools to deal with the situations that are you in.
* Need extra range and AP to punch through 3+ armor? Use kraken bolts
* Need help clearing the ork horde closing in? Use Hellfire rounds
* Need to shoot a vehicle up close? Use Vengenance rounds.
Dark Angels
As you have to stand still for certain models to benefit from this rule Dark Angels in general win more than most other astartes
-combatcotton
The grim resolve means that units that are standing still get to reroll 1s for shooting weapons.
Ravenguard
As part of this rule is to increase the effective range of bolters, this helps ravenguard stay at arms length
Intercessor Squads
These guys dropped to 17 PPM. AGL's are now 0 points, effectively making them free. This means that they can sit on an objective and fire 30" out with 2 shots per model.
5 of these clock in at 85 points and throw out 10 shots at 30" range with -1 AP. They are also troops, giving objective secured.
If you are playing deathwatch, they boost up to a 36" range with AP -2 with kraken shots. Well worth the 1 point upgrade. I can easily see bringing 20 of these guys in a marine army now.
With a 36" effective range, the area of influcene jumps to a staggering 1017.88". This is nearly 9 times are much as the original bolter. If you have ever used a heavy bolter, you are very familiar with just how far 36" will effect the table. Deathwatch Intercessor Squads can sit high in a set of ruins and shoot nearly every target on the board.
Master Crafted Boltgun
These guns get double the range if your master is chilling next to your guys giving a to-hit aura. While it's only 1 extra shot at max range, the AP -1 and D2 is a nice 'gimmie'.
Oddly enough, the primaris master is stuffed with an auto-bolt rifle, and cannot take advantage of the ruling. They still get the D2 but lose the -1 AP. They come with an assault 2, D2 bolter that lacks any AP. I consider it a downgrade now from the master crafted boltgun.
Sternguard
Special issue boltguns have a 30" range and -2 AP, and the sternguard clock in at 16 points with these weapons.
Point for point, I would rather bring Intercessor Squads, but if you are looking to add some heavy weapons like MLs to a squad, these might be a nice way to go.
It's tempting to throw combi-meltas onto them, or other similar weapons -- but those are close range weapons. The advantage of Bolter Discipline is that it lets you reach out and touch someone. There are plenty of other areas for the emperor's chosen to deliver close up death.
DW Vets
Deathwatch veterans with storm bolters also come out looking pretty hot. 20 points for a veteran marine with a 3+++ and a SIA stormbolter is pretty good even without factoring in the ability to mix in other units like terminators and bikes to soak wounds and cover their weakness (mortal wounds).
-Tibs Ironblood
What Do You Think?
What are some of the other unclear winners of the bolter discipline rule? What CSM units could benefit from this? Are there any SW or BA units that you can think of?
Thanks for your input!
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This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2019/02/11 13:35:42
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/05 20:35:35
Subject: Unclear Winners of Bolter Biscipline
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Deathwatch veterans with storm bolters also come out looking pretty hot. 20 points for a veteran marine with a 3+++ and a SIA stormbolter is pretty good even without factoring in the ability to mix in other units like terminators and bikes to soak wounds and cover their weakness (mortal wounds).
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/05 20:47:10
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/05 21:05:30
Subject: Unclear Winners of Bolter Biscipline
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Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets
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Tibs Ironblood wrote:Deathwatch veterans with storm bolters also come out looking pretty hot. 20 points for a veteran marine with a 3+++ and a SIA stormbolter is pretty good even without factoring in the ability to mix in other units like terminators and bikes to soak wounds and cover their weakness (mortal wounds).
I agree this is super hot.
The only caveat I would say would be to be wary of modeling up an army of DW vets with SS and SBs. It's just one FAQ away from making the army invalid. I would not be shocked if we get a FAQ saying that you can only take melee weapons with a SS.
If someone models up 60 models with a SS and SB, expect to pull the SBs or SSs off two months later.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/05 21:16:37
Subject: Unclear Winners of Bolter Biscipline
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Terminators are not really a winner because, while they're always firing the 4 shots, chances are they were gonna Deep Strike near the preferred target anyway. The slightly flexible deployment is nice though.
The biggest winners were Centurion variants. They were already slow, and this doubled their firepower over greater distances.
On equal level are various Deathwatch units. I shouldn't have to delve into that.
The second winner to me is Sternguard. Intercessors are kinda nearing them with double the wounds, but the greater weapons options help them along with deployment shenanagins.
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/05 21:25:51
Subject: Re:Unclear Winners of Bolter Biscipline
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Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight
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The real winner is the guy who invented “Salvo” weapons last edition only to see the weapon type universally hated and disappear when 8th was released.
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Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/05 21:58:43
Subject: Unclear Winners of Bolter Biscipline
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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It depends on what terminators your running to determine if its a winner or not. Space Wolves Wolf Guard Terminators are quite awesome now, not a lot of points for a bunch of 2+/3++ terms each shooting 4 shots at 24". You don't have to drop in nearly as close to hit your target anymore and at 27 pt a model its the cheapest way to take loyalist terms. Throw 1 or 2 guys in with a thunder hammer to make sure there is some CC punch in case someone tries to tie you up in cc and they won't want to mess with them. Plus they are Space Wolves so they are still hitting on 3's with those hammers.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/05 22:06:22
Subject: Unclear Winners of Bolter Biscipline
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Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets
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Azuza001 wrote:It depends on what terminators your running to determine if its a winner or not. Space Wolves Wolf Guard Terminators are quite awesome now, not a lot of points for a bunch of 2+/3++ terms each shooting 4 shots at 24". You don't have to drop in nearly as close to hit your target anymore and at 27 pt a model its the cheapest way to take loyalist terms. Throw 1 or 2 guys in with a thunder hammer to make sure there is some CC punch in case someone tries to tie you up in cc and they won't want to mess with them. Plus they are Space Wolves so they are still hitting on 3's with those hammers.
I've been using deathwatch terminators lately and found them to have great effect. I've even been just starting them on the board, as they have a 35" effective range with bolters, they can reach out and touch someone turn one.
SW, being able to use power weapons, clocks in at 29ppm compared to the 34 of their PF brothers. If you are fielding 30 of them, that's 150 points in savings!
I would still rather use the DW, as the SIA is just really great with those SBs. I personally think the flexibility really makes them worth the extra points.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/05 22:34:02
Subject: Unclear Winners of Bolter Biscipline
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I agree, the sia for deathwatch make their terms simply the best ones. But sw have the most durable ones. And i also agree we dont need to start in ds anymore, 5" move and 24" range means they can start on the board and have effective range.
Really the difference is what they are good at. Sw ones are elite horde clearers. Dw ones are more elite killers.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/05 22:54:22
Subject: Unclear Winners of Bolter Biscipline
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Terminators are already fine for durability. What you really want is the offensive firepower, and tickling the opponent with the Space Wolves Terminators is going to leave less an impact than 20 straight shots wounding almost all the time or from a ridiculous range.
Heck you have the AP-2 rounds easily done as well.
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/06 02:53:40
Subject: Unclear Winners of Bolter Biscipline
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Regular Dakkanaut
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As you have to stand still for certain models to benefit from this rule Dark Angels in general win more than most other astartes.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/06 03:21:56
Subject: Unclear Winners of Bolter Biscipline
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Regular Dakkanaut
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labmouse42 wrote: Tibs Ironblood wrote:Deathwatch veterans with storm bolters also come out looking pretty hot. 20 points for a veteran marine with a 3+++ and a SIA stormbolter is pretty good even without factoring in the ability to mix in other units like terminators and bikes to soak wounds and cover their weakness (mortal wounds).
I agree this is super hot.
The only caveat I would say would be to be wary of modeling up an army of DW vets with SS and SBs. It's just one FAQ away from making the army invalid. I would not be shocked if we get a FAQ saying that you can only take melee weapons with a SS.
If someone models up 60 models with a SS and SB, expect to pull the SBs or SSs off two months later.
Really think so? Not that I have a good grasp of what GW will/wont do, but it's not like DW suddenly picked up that brand new ability. They could do SS+ SB Vets with a terminator from the beginning, it's just now like 20pts/unit cheaper.
The bolter rule certainly helps, but then the whole reason behind the rule to begin with was marines being underpowered. Also, DW already had the strat to teleport up to 3 units in to rapid fire range and will not benefit from the rule the turn they come down. I'm dubious this adds much to DW firepower directly, the units are usually within 12" or moving, but what it does allow you to do is shoot without having to suicide drop right inside 12".
Whether that pushes DW to OP status I dunno, but either way, the biggest bolter unit winners are still the things like vehicles and cents that actually double their firepower at the ranges they were always used at.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/06 03:37:51
Subject: Unclear Winners of Bolter Biscipline
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Calculating Commissar
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Does this rule interact with Imperial Fists at all? I can't remember their Chapter tactics off the top of my head.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Terminators are not really a winner because, while they're always firing the 4 shots, chances are they were gonna Deep Strike near the preferred target anyway. The slightly flexible deployment is nice though.
It does mean the Terminators can teleport outside a screen and still hit a squishy support unit hiding behind the screen with full firepower. I think this is the main boost to deepstriking Terminators- they can reliably hit screened units
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/06 03:38:40
ChargerIIC wrote:If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/06 13:21:49
Subject: Unclear Winners of Bolter Biscipline
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Sister Vastly Superior
Germany - Bodensee/Ravensburg area
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labmouse42 wrote:
SW, being able to use power weapons, clocks in at 29ppm compared to the 34 of their PF brothers. If you are fielding 30 of them, that's 150 points in savings!
I would still rather use the DW, as the SIA is just really great with those SBs. I personally think the flexibility really makes them worth the extra points.
Wolf Guard terminators can replace their melee weapon with a storm shield, which costs only 2 pts. on them since CA19, 2 points less than a power sword.
27 point 2 wound termies with 2+/3++ that can move and pump out 4 shots at 24" (which means they will be in range turn 1) are great. Sure, less deadly than DW vets or DW termie squads (vet squads terminators don't benefit from the Terminator keyword afair and get get to move and get full shots), but 7 points over a DA vet to get another wound and 2+ saves is pretty nice
Sure, with the 27 point build you lose any power weapons, but how useful are they in the first place? Against half the armies (anything gunline, ranged horde or boyz) they are wasted or will not see any use and actual melee units like genestealers will still rip you apart. Rather keep the unit cheap and focused on being a tanks and shooty midfield unit which are hard to respond to with most small arms. Throw a cheap power axe on the pack leader (who has the three attacks to make the investment worth it) and call it a day. Even a fist and particularly a hammer might be too much of a point sink IMO.
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Dark it was, and dire of form
the beast that laid them low
Hrothgar's sharpened frost-forged blade
to deal a fatal blow
he stalked and hunted day and night
and came upon it's lair
With sword and shield Hrothgar fought
and earned the name of slayer
- The saga of Hrothgar the Beastslayer |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/06 13:30:34
Subject: Unclear Winners of Bolter Biscipline
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Long-Range Land Speeder Pilot
Canary Island (Spain)
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What about Cataphracty Terminator for other SM chapters? They have a 4++ right? I used them some times with my Ultramarines and performed nod bad. Now with the Bolter rule....
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/06 20:18:47
Subject: Unclear Winners of Bolter Biscipline
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Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets
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bort wrote:Really think so? Not that I have a good grasp of what GW will/wont do, but it's not like DW suddenly picked up that brand new ability. They could do SS+ SB Vets with a terminator from the beginning, it's just now like 20pts/unit cheaper.
The bolter rule certainly helps, but then the whole reason behind the rule to begin with was marines being underpowered. Also, DW already had the strat to teleport up to 3 units in to rapid fire range and will not benefit from the rule the turn they come down. I'm dubious this adds much to DW firepower directly, the units are usually within 12" or moving, but what it does allow you to do is shoot without having to suicide drop right inside 12".
Whether that pushes DW to OP status I dunno, but either way, the biggest bolter unit winners are still the things like vehicles and cents that actually double their firepower at the ranges they were always used at.
Yes. I do. It's the same reason I don't suggest modeling your SW wolf guard with SS / SB.
Storm Shields have nearly always been paired with melee weapons in GW's history. You can google images of storm shield and see that this is the case. I found one case where someone made a SS with a bolter, but every other case was with melee weapons.
Modeling all your minis to use SS and SBs is just one FAQ from being made completely invalid. I can see GW posting in a FAQ that SS can only be used with melee weapons, and then *poof* all of your carefully modeled units are not unplayable.
If you are hedging to place in something like LVO, Nova, or Adepticon, then it's probably worth your time to run that rule during the time window. If you are already throwing down $1500 to attend an event, losing $300 in possibly unplayable models is a minor expense.
You might also find a way to do it on the cheap, such as buying cheap marines off ebay then gluing WFB shields on them all and using a 3rd party to make SBs.
You might also get the deathwing termies for cheap and throw sheilds over their powerfists and run them 'counts as' wolf guard.
Either way, unless you have the money to burn, I don't suggest throwing down hundreds of dollars for a rule that might be FAQ'ed away.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/06 20:55:27
Subject: Re:Unclear Winners of Bolter Biscipline
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Somebody's never heard of breacher teams I see.
Or CML Terminators.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/06 21:12:24
Subject: Unclear Winners of Bolter Biscipline
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Daemonic Dreadnought
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Chaos Rhinos with double combi-bolters. 8 shots every turn.
Chaos Bikers are pretty hot for the points.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/07 01:04:47
Subject: Re:Unclear Winners of Bolter Biscipline
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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For Space Wolves, take the Index option of Wolf Guard on Bikes. Give each guy a Storm Bolter and Storm Shield. Now you've got a 200 point unit that throws out 40 bolter shots at 24". There's no reason to invest in a good melee weapon, as this is a unit that would rather dance at maximum range and should never end up in combat. It is still just S4 AP0 shots, so you're not going to take down Knights or other big targets, but Guardsmen, Ork Boyz, and other cheap mooks will be cut down fairly easily, especially if the WG bikers have a character nearby buffing their shooting.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/07 01:44:56
Subject: Unclear Winners of Bolter Biscipline
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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labmouse42 wrote:bort wrote:Really think so? Not that I have a good grasp of what GW will/wont do, but it's not like DW suddenly picked up that brand new ability. They could do SS+ SB Vets with a terminator from the beginning, it's just now like 20pts/unit cheaper.
The bolter rule certainly helps, but then the whole reason behind the rule to begin with was marines being underpowered. Also, DW already had the strat to teleport up to 3 units in to rapid fire range and will not benefit from the rule the turn they come down. I'm dubious this adds much to DW firepower directly, the units are usually within 12" or moving, but what it does allow you to do is shoot without having to suicide drop right inside 12".
Whether that pushes DW to OP status I dunno, but either way, the biggest bolter unit winners are still the things like vehicles and cents that actually double their firepower at the ranges they were always used at.
Yes. I do. It's the same reason I don't suggest modeling your SW wolf guard with SS / SB.
Storm Shields have nearly always been paired with melee weapons in GW's history. You can google images of storm shield and see that this is the case. I found one case where someone made a SS with a bolter, but every other case was with melee weapons.
Modeling all your minis to use SS and SBs is just one FAQ from being made completely invalid. I can see GW posting in a FAQ that SS can only be used with melee weapons, and then *poof* all of your carefully modeled units are not unplayable.
If you are hedging to place in something like LVO, Nova, or Adepticon, then it's probably worth your time to run that rule during the time window. If you are already throwing down $1500 to attend an event, losing $300 in possibly unplayable models is a minor expense.
You might also find a way to do it on the cheap, such as buying cheap marines off ebay then gluing WFB shields on them all and using a 3rd party to make SBs.
You might also get the deathwing termies for cheap and throw sheilds over their powerfists and run them 'counts as' wolf guard.
Either way, unless you have the money to burn, I don't suggest throwing down hundreds of dollars for a rule that might be FAQ'ed away.
The "cheap" way I'm getting my StormVets is by mixing GKs and AoS Stormcasts. The GKs have the SBs, the Liberators have the shields. But only about half my models are going to have both SS and SB. I'll have some Frag cannons, hammers and axes too.
I'm really not worried about it being invalidated by an FAQ. What is far more likely is that CA2019 bumps SSs up to 3/4ppm, or even back to 5ppm. But they'd still be valid, just not as competitive
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/07 13:25:52
Subject: Unclear Winners of Bolter Biscipline
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Banelord Titan Princeps of Khorne
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Stormshields and stormbolters (or even just bolters) shouldn't be a big deal for anyone that's played 30k. The stormshield points drops practically beg you to use Breachers as "counts as" DW veterans.
- Also, I love this thread!
I've been looking at similar ideas on how to throw some terminators on the table. Deathwatch seem like the clear winner, and can even be troops, but a veteran squad with 5 terminators gets really expensive really fast.
I used to play exclusively Deathwing/Lysanderwing back in the day, and I'd love to be able to throw that many terminators back on the board. On the other hand, I'm not all that excited about mini-marine models, even terminators. I've found some decent conversions utilizing aggressor legs, but I don't yet have an army idea that makes me want to go through the trouble.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/07 15:08:16
Subject: Unclear Winners of Bolter Biscipline
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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I feel like regular Bolter Marines are "unclear winners" here. And by that, I mean Tactical Marines and Chaos Marines should be the ideal winners here, but are not. It truly looks like this change was intended to help standard bolter bearers, Termies & Bikes. But the standard Marines get left in the dust by SB bearers and Intercessors. And what is worse, the current Beta encourages static gunline tactics to get the most out of regular bolters that aren't mounted on Termies, Bikes or Tanks. Regular Marines would rather stand still in cover rather than close with the enemy (like good shock troops should be doing) Hopefully some of our suggestions will make the final Bolter Discipline rule benefit regular marines proportionately more than SB bois. -
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/07 15:09:30
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/07 15:25:31
Subject: Unclear Winners of Bolter Biscipline
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Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets
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whitedragon wrote:I've been looking at similar ideas on how to throw some terminators on the table. Deathwatch seem like the clear winner, and can even be troops, but a veteran squad with 5 terminators gets really expensive really fast.
I used to play exclusively Deathwing/Lysanderwing back in the day, and I'd love to be able to throw that many terminators back on the board. On the other hand, I'm not all that excited about mini-marine models, even terminators. I've found some decent conversions utilizing aggressor legs, but I don't yet have an army idea that makes me want to go through the trouble.
It's dippy, but the deathwatch vets don't have the 'terminator' keyword for their terminators, meaning they don't get to benefit from the bolter discipline rule.
The deathwatch elite terminators do. Personally I'm running deathwatch terminators and adding Primaris Intercessors as my troops, as I think the DW version of them are really underappreciated units.
Currently I'm running a deathwing as a 'count-as' deathwatch. I'm bringing 32 terminators and 5 (3 norm, 2 ven) dreads right now.
My plan is to drop 2 dreads and add some Intercessors
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/02/07 15:52:04
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/07 16:07:23
Subject: Unclear Winners of Bolter Biscipline
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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labmouse42 wrote:It's dippy, but the deathwatch vets don't have the 'terminator' keyword for their terminators, meaning they don't get to benefit from the bolter discipline rule.
I mean, they do benefit from the rule, but only the "if stationary" part that the other Vets get. But you're right it is derpy for them not to have the Terminator keyword for all purposes rather just for transports.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/07 16:07:49
Subject: Unclear Winners of Bolter Biscipline
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Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets
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Galef wrote:I feel like regular Bolter Marines are "unclear winners" here. And by that, I mean Tactical Marines and Chaos Marines should be the ideal winners here, but are not.
It truly looks like this change was intended to help standard bolter bearers, Termies & Bikes. But the standard Marines get left in the dust by SB bearers and Intercessors.
I agree. I think one of the problems here is that old marines are just not cost-effective compared to other units.
The bitter part of me suspects that GW does this to encourage us to buy new models and not recycle old ones off ebay.
10 tac clock in at 130 points. Adding a melta gun , ML , and rhino with dual SBs bring the total cost to 238 -- which is just bit underwhelming for what it delivers.
- 24 bolter shots
- 1 ML
- 1 MG
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/07 16:48:02
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/07 21:24:45
Subject: Unclear Winners of Bolter Biscipline
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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One thought that recently occurred to me is that DW Vet might have the SB option completely removed in an Errata.
I base this speculation of 3 factors:
A) SIA + Bolter Discipline dramatically improves SB Vets. I don't think this was the intent of the Beta rule
B) DW Vets actually do not have SBs as part of their kit, and we all know GWs recent "no model/upgrade, no rules" policy
C) Removing SBs from DW Vets "fixes" the recent SB/SS combo imbalance and puts DW Intercessors back on the menu for DW Troop
Probably wouldn't happen until CA2019 and only if StormVets place really well in tons of tourneys before then, but I would not be surprised in the slightest if that is the "solution" GW goes with.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/08 12:06:19
Subject: Re:Unclear Winners of Bolter Biscipline
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Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets
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ZergSmasher wrote:For Space Wolves, take the Index option of Wolf Guard on Bikes. Give each guy a Storm Bolter and Storm Shield. Now you've got a 200 point unit that throws out 40 bolter shots at 24". There's no reason to invest in a good melee weapon, as this is a unit that would rather dance at maximum range and should never end up in combat. It is still just S4 AP0 shots, so you're not going to take down Knights or other big targets, but Guardsmen, Ork Boyz, and other cheap mooks will be cut down fairly easily, especially if the WG bikers have a character nearby buffing their shooting.
Where did you see this? I was looking at the codex, and saw where they can take jump packs but not bikes.
Where is this rule found? I'm quite curious, as this would be extremely powerful.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/08 12:20:49
Subject: Unclear Winners of Bolter Biscipline
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Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator
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Storm bolter toting units are the clear winners.
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Former moderator 40kOnline
Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!
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Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/08 14:13:09
Subject: Re:Unclear Winners of Bolter Biscipline
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Nihilistic Necron Lord
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labmouse42 wrote: ZergSmasher wrote:For Space Wolves, take the Index option of Wolf Guard on Bikes. Give each guy a Storm Bolter and Storm Shield. Now you've got a 200 point unit that throws out 40 bolter shots at 24". There's no reason to invest in a good melee weapon, as this is a unit that would rather dance at maximum range and should never end up in combat. It is still just S4 AP0 shots, so you're not going to take down Knights or other big targets, but Guardsmen, Ork Boyz, and other cheap mooks will be cut down fairly easily, especially if the WG bikers have a character nearby buffing their shooting.
Where did you see this? I was looking at the codex, and saw where they can take jump packs but not bikes.
Where is this rule found? I'm quite curious, as this would be extremely powerful.
Index Imperium 1. He said that, index option. And yes, its legal to do that.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/08 14:47:34
Subject: Unclear Winners of Bolter Biscipline
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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Which, combined with the fact that the plastic kit includes 0 SBs, gives me the feeling that DW Vets are soon to have their SB option removed.
Time will tell if StormVets make a big showing in tourneys in 2019, but if they make a big enough impact, I'd expect an FAQ/Errata removing them. From Matched play at least.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/08 15:30:54
Subject: Unclear Winners of Bolter Biscipline
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Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets
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Galef wrote:Which, combined with the fact that the plastic kit includes 0 SBs, gives me the feeling that DW Vets are soon to have their SB option removed.
Time will tell if StormVets make a big showing in tourneys in 2019, but if they make a big enough impact, I'd expect an FAQ/Errata removing them. From Matched play at least.
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I agree with Galef. Automatically Appended Next Post: p5freak wrote:Index Imperium 1. He said that, index option. And yes, its legal to do that.
Sweet. Thanks!
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/08 15:31:19
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