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It´s not really an overhaul. It started as one, but it got kinda out of hand.
Before you read, please note:
-This whole thing is based on "40k 9th edition: OKorVesah edition" (in my thread "general rules overhaul": https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/770481.page).
-Primary priority is rules which are fun and fit the fluff. Secondary priority is balance. This is more like a draft. Balance cannot really be done, just on paper, so I will leave proper balance to the finalized and official version (which I will most likely never write).
-It is not yet complete.
40k 9th edition: OKorVesah edition - Codex T´au empire... (take with a grain of salt).
General:
Spoiler:
All point costs provisorical and subject to change.
Anything not covered defaults to the current codex/is still under construction (will be done properly, on the off-chance I ever decide to write a proper codex).
Markerlights:
When a friendly T´au <Sept> unit declares a shooting attack against a unit with markers on it, you can choose effects from below and expend markers accordingly. The shooting unit benefits from those effects against the marked unit for this phase.
No general restriction from using other weapons (if so, specified per unit).
Point costs for all Marker weapons to 0 (to be included in model costs).
effects:
- reroll 1s; 1 Marker
- shoot a seeker/destroyer missile of this unit in guided mode: hit on 2+, regardless of modifiers and ignores line of sight and cover; 1 Marker per missile
- ignore one rule or effect that grants a malus to hit rolls against the marked unit; 1 Marker per rule/effect ignored
- ignore cover; 2 Markers
- +1 to hit rolls; 2 Markers; Several instances of this effect do not stack.
++++For the Greater Good: Provisorically scrapped.
Units:
Spoiler:
Remove Deep Strike from everything.
Battlesuits:
All battlesuits can fire rapid-fire weapons after moving without penalty.
All battlesuits except broadsides and stormsurges gain the "Fly" and "Disengage" abilities.
All battlesuits except broadsides, stormsurges, riptides and ghostkeels gain the "Jet Thrust" ability.
"Jet Thrust": Can use their Jet engines to perform large jumps. Use before moving to triple the movement speed of this unit (triple after modifiers and advancing). This unit cannot use this rule, if it has used it in the previous round.
Remove "Drone support" from all units. Ruling related to drones is specified on the drones´ datasheet. Only number and type of drones which can accompany each unit are specified per-unit.
Commander:
Save 3+/1.
Movement to 6"/D6".
Up to 2 drones total from the combat- and support-drones lists.
Up to 3 weapons and 2 support systems (but max. 4 total).
Gains "Key unit(3+)".
Change Master of War: at the start of your movement phase, you can choose a friendly T´au unit within 12" and one of the following effects. That unit benefits from that effect until the start of your next movement phase. Several instances of the same effect do not stack, but a unit can benefit from several different effects at once.
-Master of Mobility: If the unit advances, treat it as having moved, if it moved, treat it as not having moved.
-Master of Nerves: The unit gets +1 to their hit rolls when shooting at a unit within 6" of them.
-Master of Concealment: If the unit benefits from cover, improve it´s cover save by 1.
No restriction on number of Commanders.
Can improve it´s battlesuit to either:
-Enforcer
--Improves Attacks, Strength and Wounds by 1.
--Range of Master of War improved by 6".
--15 points
-Coldstar
--Movement to 20"
--No "Jet Thrust".
--20 points.
Any variation can upgrade it´s armor to iridium.
Grants 3CP.
Points to 95.
Commander with Enforcer/Coldstar scrapped (see above).
Ethereal:
Save 5+/0.
Movement to 6"/D6".
Up to 2 drones total from the combat- and support-drones lists.
All abilities removed.
Gains "Key unit(2+)".
Gains ability "Failure is not an option": All T´au empire units except vehicles and alien auxilliaries within 48" of at least one ethereal and with line of sight to that one can ignore the first wound they take during each turn.
Gains ability "Presence of an ethereal": All T´au empire units except vehicles and alien auxilliaries within 6" of at least one ethereal gain +1 to their hit rolls.
Gains ability "The price of failure": When an ethereal dies, all units that were affected by his/her "Failure is not option" before his/her death suffer -1 to their hit rolls until the end of your next turn. Units that where affected by his/her "Presence of an ethereal" before his/her death suffer another -1 to their hit rolls until the end of your next turn.
Grants 1CP.
Points to 80.
Cadre Fireblade:
Save 4+/0.
Movement to 6"/D6".
Up to 2 drones total from the combat- and support-drones lists.
Replace Markerlight with linked marker (linked to pulse rifle).
Gains "Key unit(2+)".
Volley fire removed.
Gains ability "Fire caste discipline": Allied T´au empire infantry units except alien auxilliaries within 3" of this model can ignore the penalty from moving to firing rapid-fire weapons and from advancing to firing storm weapons.
Grants 2CP.
Stealth:
Save 3+/1.
Movement to 6"/D6".
Up to 2 drones total from the combat-drones list.
Have access to all Crisis weapons (still only 1 per suit)(this is their primary weapon, for purposes of linked marker).
Stealth Shas´vre Markerlight option replaced by linked marker option.
Change Camouflage Fields into: Whenever a unit declares this unit as target for a shooting attack, roll a D6. On a 4+ all shots declared against this unit are lost. Doesn´t work against shots that hit automatically.
-Can, before moving, decide to go into stealth mode, adding 1 to their camouflage fields rolls, but making them unable to shoot until the start of your next turn. Cannot go into stealth mode while in CC.
Crisis:
Save 3+/1.
Movement to 6"/D6".
Up to 2 drones per Crisis total from the combat-drones list.
up to 2 weapons and 1 support system.
Unit size to 2-5.
Gain ability: "Jet Thrust": Can use their Jet engines to perform large jumps. Use at the start of the movement phase to triple your movement speed (triple after modifiers and advancing). This unit cannot use this rule, if it has used it in the previous round. This rule replaces Deep-Strike.
Points to 30.
Bodyguards:
Save 3+/1.
Movement to 6"/D6".
Up to 2 drones per Bodyguard total from the combat-drones list.
up to 2 weapons and 1 support system.
Gains "Jet Thrust" (see Crisis).
Rework "Sworn protectors": When this unit attempts to intercept an attack by using the "Key unit" ability, it automatically passes the test.
Unit size to 2-5.
BS3+, WS4+.
Points to 40.
Pathfinder:
Save 5+/0.
Movement to 7"/D6".
Up to 2 drones total from the combat- or support-drones lists.
Markerlight: 30" storm1. Cannot be fired together with other weapons.
Gains "Key unit(5+)".
Ion Rifle and Rail Carbine disabled.
Any of them can replace their Pulse carbine (but not the Markerlight) with a Photon Projector: Storm 1. 24" range. Enemy units hit by at least one photon projector reduce their move characteristic by 1 and cannot advance until the start of your next turn. 7 Points.
Points to 9.
Pathwatcher:
Save 4+/0.
Movement to 6"/D6".
Up to 2 drones total from the combat- or support-drones lists.
New unit, same profile as Firewarriors, Heavy Support. 15 points/model.
Heavy Marker: 48" heavy1. Cannot be fired together with other weapons.
Longshot pulse rifle: 48" heavy1 S6 AP0 dmg1.
Any of them can replace their Longshot pulse rifle with an Ion rifle or a Rail Rifle.
Gains "Key unit(5+)".
Gains ability "Cover expert": If this unit benefits from cover and did not move during their movement phase it´s cover save improves by 1.
Firewarriors:
Save 4+/0.
Movement to 6"/D6".
Up to 2 drones total from the combat-drones list.
Shas´ui Markerlight option replaced with linked marker option (linked to pulse rifle/pulse carbine).
Breachers:
Save 4+/2.
Movement to 6"/D6".
Up to 2 drones total from the combat-drones list.
Shas´ui Markerlight option replaced with linked marker option (linked to pulse rifle/pulse carbine).
Gain ability "Close quarter expert": Up to 2 Breachers can throw a grenade when throwing grenades is allowed and Breachers can throw grenades before falling back (the models which throw the grenades cannot shoot during the shooting phase this turn).
Points to 9.
Firesight marksman: Removed.
Kroot:
Save 7+/0.
Movement to 7"/D6".
Krootgun: Storm 1.
2 attacks.
Gain ability: "Agile": Models that attack Models with this rule in close combat suffer -1 to their hit rolls.
Kroothounds:
Save 7+/0.
Movement to 10"/D6".
S4 AP0.
Points to 5.
Kroot Shaper:
Save 7+/0.
Movement to 7"/D6".
++++Gains ability: "For the Greater Good, Charge!": All Kroot units within 6" of the Shaper can reroll their charge distances and can make 6" heroic interventions.
Gains ability: "Agile" (see Kroot).
Ritual Blade replaced by Nasty old Blade: S user AP-1, +1 Attack when all attacks are made with this weapon.
The Shaper commands: Removed.
Wisest of their kind: Removed.
Krootox:
Save 5+/2.
Movement to 6"/(D3+3)".
Unit size to 3-8.
Heavy Kroot gun: Storm 1. 30" range.
In melee, the rider can also make 2 attacks with his combat knife.
Points to 20.
//Make some plastic models for Kroothounds and Krootox, seriously, they are supposed to be fielded in large-ish numbers.
Vespids:
Save 4+/0.
Movement to 10"/(D6+2)".
Gain "Fly" and "Disengage".
Gain "Jet Thrust (vespid edition)": Same as Jet Thrust, but cannot be used if this unit used it in one of the previous two rounds.
Piranha:
Save 2+/2.
Movement to 16"/6".
Gains "Fly".
Devilfish:
Save 1+/3.
Move chart to 12"/6";10"/5";8"/4".
Gains "Fly".
Razorshark: Removed.
Sunshark:
Save 2+/3.
Move chart to 20"-50"/20";20"-30"/20";20"-25"/20".
Equipment:
-Pulse bombs XOR Quad Ion Turret.
-2 attached interceptor drones XOR 2 burst cannons XOR 2 cyclic ion blasters.
-Up to 2 Seeker Missiles.
-No Markerlight.
Pulse bombs: Use after your movement. Choose one unit that this model moved over. That unit takes as many automatic hits as there are models in it, up to a maximum of 10 hits. The hits have S5 AP-1 and ignore cover.
Gains "Fly".
Gains "Disengage".
Gains the "Flier" keyword.
Drones:
Save 4+/0.
Movement to 6"/D6".
Gain "Jet Thrust".
Gain "Fly".
Gain "Disengage".
Savior Protocols: This unit treats all friendly T´au empire units as having the "Key unit(4+)" ability. If this unit contains a shield drone, use "Key unit(3+)" instead, but when this unit intercepts an attack, shield drones must die first.
Shield drones: 3+/2 (shield generator included).
Grav-inhibitor drones: Can turn on/off their gravity-wave projector at the start of your turn. All units within 15" of an active gravity-wave projector reduce their movement by D3".
Interceptor drones: Movement to 8"/D6", save 3+/0. Two ion rifles. Points to 5, not counting the price for the ion rifles.
Recon drones: Removed.
Missile drones: Removed.
Shielded missile drones: Removed.
Stealth drones: Removed.
Sniper drones: Removed.
Attached drones: Drones attached to vehicles shoot their weapons themselves, with their own BS. Vehicles can improve the targetting algorithm of Gundrones, allowing them to choose their target.
Accompanying drones: Many T´au empire units can be accompanied by a unit of drones. These drones units must be set up in coherency with the unit they accompany, but from that point onward, they are a separate unit for all purposes.
Support Drones:
Units that contain support drones have "Key unit(2+)".
HQ characters that can be accompanied by drones can choose support drones as company.
Sky Ray:
Save 1+/3.
Gains ability "Reload": If the Sky Ray didn´t move, only shot his Markerlights and doesn´t have an enemy unit within 1", it can reload all its missiles at the end of the turn.
Move chart to 12"/6";10"/5";8"/4".
Gains "Fly".
Points to 60.
Longstrike:
Fire Caste Exemplar: removed.
++++
Points to 40.
Hammerhead:
Save 1+/3.
Move chart to 12"/6";10"/5";8"/4".
Gains "Fly".
Broadside:
Save 2+/2.
Movement to 6"/D6".
Up to 2 drones per broadside total from the combat-drones list.
Can replace both SMS with 2 weapons from the Crisis arsenal, but both must be the same.
Points to 50.
Riptide:
Save 3+/2 (includes shield generator).
Movement to 12"/(D6+3)"
Up to 2 drones per riptide total from the combat-drones list.
Gains "Fly".
Gains "Disengage".
The shield option of the Nova-charge get´s changed to: +2 AP resistance.
Ghostkeel:
Save 3+/1.
Movement to 10"/D6".
Up to 2 drones per ghostkeel total from the combat-drones list.
All abilities except "For the Greater Good" removed.
Gains ability "Dispersion Field": At the start of your movement phase, choose two allied T´au empire units within 6" of this model. These units gain cover or improve their cover save by 1 if they have cover from another source, until the start of your next turn. Several instances of this don´t stack.
Gains "Fly".
Gains "Disengage".
Weapons, Wargear, Relics:
Spoiler:
Weapons:
Linked marker: 24"range heavy1. Must be fired at the same target as the bearers main weapon. 5 points.
Photon grenade: Grenade1.
Pulse carbine: A unit that looses at least one wound to a pulse carbine reduces it´s movement by 1" until the start of your next turn.
Seeker/Destroyer Missile: Can be fired manually (normally, like other weapons), but only 1 missile per model per turn manually.
AFP: Removed, replaced by SMS (see SMS, below).
Flamer: S3. StormX: Causes 1 automatic hit per model in the target unit, up to 6. Flamers ignore cover.
-When a unit (unit A) moves into close-combat with a unit (unit B) that contains flamers, you can immediately fire all flamers of unit B at unit A, provided unit B isn´t already in close-combat.
-You can equip a flamer in place of a support system.
Points to 10.
Rail Weapons: Don´t deal mortal wounds. Can reroll any dice of their damage rolls against monsters and vehicles.
Railgun: AP-6 (D6+2)dmg. Points to 65 .
-Railgun submunition: Heavy1 S4 AP0. If the hit roll succeeds, causes 1 hit per model in the target unit, up to 6.
Heavy Rail rifle: S9 AP-5. Points to 50.
Rail rifle: 36" range. S7 AP-4 D3dmg.
Fusion Blaster:
AP-5.
Can reroll it´s damage against vehicles and monsters. If the target is within half range, improve the S and the damage by 1 (always).
Points to 14.
Fusion Collider:
Heavy2 AP-6 (D6+1)dmg.
Can reroll it´s damage agains vehicles and monsters. If the target is within half range, improve the S and the damage by 1 (always).
Ion weapons: Damage can spill over. A unit can try to overcharge all their ion weapons: Roll a D6. On a 3+ improve the damage of all their ion weapons by 1. If you fail the roll, this unit cannot shoot their ion weapons this phase (but they can still use any other weapon as normal).
Ion cannon: Damage 3.
Quad ion turret: 30"range Storm4 S7 AP-1 Damage 2.
Cyclic ion blaster: Storm2 S6 AP-1 Damage 2.
Ion rifle: Storm1 18"range Storm1 S6 AP-1 Damage 2. Points to 10.
Cyclic ion raker: 24"range Heavy6 S6 AP-1 Damage 2.
Ion accelerator: Heavy4 S7 AP-2 Damage 3.
Support Systems:
Broadsides and Piranhas pay double the points, anything bigger pays triple the points.
Support Systems enabled for vehicles (up to one per vehicle).
Drone Controller: Add 6" to the range, if the equipped model is bigger than a broadside.
Target Lock: When shooting, nominate one rule/ability that confers a malus to your hit rolls. Ignore that malus. Points to 10.
Stabilizer: Increase the range of all the bearers weapons by 6". 12 Points.
Shield Generator: Improves the AP resistance of the bearer by 1. Cannot be bought for vehicles.
Field Repair Drones: Monsters and vehicles only. The bearer can heal d3 wounds at the start of your turn, but then it cannot move and gets -1 to hit. 10 points.
Velocity Tracker/Multi-Tracker: Removed.
Relics:
Broadsides and Piranhas pay double the points, anything bigger pays triple the points.
"Audiovisual Presence Amplificator" (a.k.a. hologram&megaphone): Only for HQ characters. Increases the range of all the bearers abilities which affect friendly T´au empire units by 6". Non-unique. 15 points.
#When it became apparent how usefull this simple technology could be on the battlefield, the entire earth-caste tried to hide themselves for weeks, so great was their shame at not having figured this out earlier. They are still working on making it stable and reliable under battlefield conditions.
"Onager Gauntlet": For models in a Crisis suit with at least rank Shas´vre. Can make 1 attack with the gauntlet, the other attacks normal. Profile unchanged. Non-unique. 10 points.
#Since the initial prototypes where technically a success, the earth-caste gave them some last touches and declared the project completed. However due to their nature, Onager gauntlets were difficult to unite with the fire-caste doctrines, and few commanders are willing to make use of this technology. Therefore, they are usually only produced upon explicit request.
"The Flame of Mar´rek: For models which can take a flamer, taking up the place of a flamer. Works like a flamer but with 10"range AP-3 and causing up to 8 hits. Roll a D6 after each attack made with this weapon: on a 1, the Flame of Mar´rek vanishes. This roll cannot be re-rolled or modified. Unique. 20 points.
#The imperial forces of Mar´rek employed highly unconventional and confounding tactics, leaving many a T´au Commander doubting their competence or even their sanity. While they did not cause much damage, it took a long amount of time to completely drive them off the system. The T´au forces later discovered the Flame of Mar´rek in what seemed like a shrine. Apparently identical in function to a flamer, the earth-caste was completely puzzled by it´s technology, unable to even remotely understand it´s workings. What they did found out, however, was that the Flame of Mar´rek had a slight habit of disappering from the hands of it´s wielder (usually when it would be needed most) and shortly thereafter reappear in it´s shrine. Since there seemed no other risks in it´s usage, the ethereals permitted the fire-caste to use it, but only upon explicit request and on condition of close observation of the bearer.
"Watcher´s Gaze": For models in a Battlesuit with at least rank Shas´vre. Grants the bearer ignore cover and increases the range of his weapons by 4". Unique. 20 points.
#A gift from an alien race after they willingly joined the Greater Good. Apparently sacred to them, but they thought the T´au would be more worthy to have it. Happily ignoring the attempts of the earth-caste to unravel it´s workings, the Watcher´s Gaze guides the aim of the one who looks through it unerringly to it´s target, past any cover and even beyond the effective operational range of the weapon.
Warlord traits & Stratagems: TBD
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/02/09 14:52:42
On a glimpse, it seems like a huge wish list and not a very balanced proposal.
You list all the cool gimmicks that make them really good, while removing all the things that make Tau bad.
In a nutshell, you want Tau to become a mobile gunline army capable of kiting everything.
How do you beat a Tau? For example, current incarnation of Tau is weak against assaults, and there are various gimmicks to prevent them from getting into combat in the first place. With all these buffs to make them uncatchable and mechanics that puts them above the core mechanics (i.e. ignore this and that penalty from the core rules because they have [INSERT NAME HERE] rule), what is it that makes Tau balanced at all?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/08 22:58:10
See his general overhaul post elsewhere, IIRC it's that HQs generate CP rather than detachments.
Personally:
I would like nothing more than to see +1 to hit die a bitter and cold death from the codex. Entirely.
I firmly believe that the universal chart holds markerlights back and that fewer, tailored choices available per unit is the way to go.
and I'm still reading this, but; I really, really don't like giving Iridium to the Enforcer, let alone the Coldstar. I like the current Iridium/Enforcer/Coldstar trio, and would prefer to see that stick instead. If I had any nitpickings about the current status of them, it's that the Coldstar could stand to have one of its weapon slots replaced with a support system (going by your paradigm, 2/2 rather than 3/1). Oh, and fix the XV8 Commander. That it only has 5 wounds is a problem; +3w is a consistent character upgrade pattern across the entire game. Give them all 6 wounds, give the Enforcer +6" range on Master of War (or whatever buff vector it gets).
This is incredibly unbalanced. 6” heroic interventions on all kroot? Easy access to making the entire army BS 2+? 4+ screw your shooting on stealt suits? Cmon man
On a glimpse, it seems like a huge wish list and not a very balanced proposal.
You list all the cool gimmicks that make them really good, while removing all the things that make Tau bad.
Thank you. If I managed to list all the cool gimmicks, then I succeeded in step1: making T´au fun.
In a nutshell, you want Tau to become a mobile gunline army capable of kiting everything.
You just perfectly described T´au.
How do you beat a Tau? For example, current incarnation of Tau is weak against assaults, and there are various gimmicks to prevent them from getting into combat in the first place. With all these buffs to make them uncatchable and mechanics that puts them above the core mechanics (i.e. ignore this and that penalty from the core rules because they have [INSERT NAME HERE] rule), what is it that makes Tau balanced at all?
How do you beat T´au? Well, same as always. Psykers. Outshoot them (they still aren´t #1 in raw firepower and they still aren´t too good at soaking damage). Melee (follow generic melee vs ranged protocoll).
Maybe i got the balance wrong. Of course they shouldn´t be 100% untouchable. Of course they shouldn´t auto-win and stomp everyone into the ground. To my shame I haven´t tested these rules so far, (and I daresay, neither did you), so I´m reluctant to argue balance here.
I would like nothing more than to see +1 to hit die a bitter and cold death from the codex. Entirely.
I firmly believe that the universal chart holds markerlights back and that fewer, tailored choices available per unit is the way to go.
and I'm still reading this, but; I really, really don't like giving Iridium to the Enforcer, let alone the Coldstar. I like the current Iridium/Enforcer/Coldstar trio, and would prefer to see that stick instead. If I had any nitpickings about the current status of them, it's that the Coldstar could stand to have one of its weapon slots replaced with a support system (going by your paradigm, 2/2 rather than 3/1). Oh, and fix the XV8 Commander. That it only has 5 wounds is a problem; +3w is a consistent character upgrade pattern across the entire game. Give them all 6 wounds, give the Enforcer +6" range on Master of War (or whatever buff vector it gets).
I´m not sure why you have a problem with +1 to hit. T´au have one single phase to deal damage: the shooting phase. I think it is natural that, when implementing abilities to buff each other, you would make them hit better? Also, every other army does exactly the same? Also, [too many] armies have access to -1 to hit, so why shouldn´t I get +1 to hit? Well, i guess it´s your call, but this is how I would do it.
Kinda same for the markerlights. I don´t technically mind tailored-per-unit effects, it´s just a huge pain to write, to look up and to remember. I´m sticking to this one for simplicity, for the time being.
I actually don´t really care about the commander flavors. I just copied them and tried to do some streamlining. If you want them differently, sure, why not.
This is incredibly unbalanced. 6” heroic interventions on all kroot? Easy access to making the entire army BS 2+? 4+ screw your shooting on stealt suits? Cmon man
6" heroic intervention for kroot is a desperate attempt at making shapers good. I have no better idea.
They can´t easily get 2+ for the whole army. The +1 markerlight effect doesn´t stack with itself and the other +1 options are more difficult to get. Also, last edition was way worse in this regard, and my opponents never really complained too much (that was just how T´au were, shoot the markers if you got a problem with it).
Stealth suits are literally put on the battlefield to screw your shooting. Also, last edition they had 2+ cover (when in cover) and they weren´t really op.
Also, Kroot are apparently so damn nimble that you're at -1 to hit them in CC.
Eldar aren't.
Dark Eldar aren't.
Harlequins aren't.
Assassins aren't.
They are. This is a T´au codex. If I were to write a [your race] codex, I would give all those units which rely on their nimbleness something similar.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/09 15:17:13
@JNAProductions: Remember, that last edition WS also had defensive purposes. Now that this is gone (and I scrapped Kroot´s 6+ armor) Kroot have nothing. I gave them -1 to hit in melee to give them some semblance of defence (at least in melee, where they are supposed to be).
@Lance845: 1) This is not a problem. If everyone is the best, then noone is. Look at super smash bros, where you pit "the best" from many different universes against each other, and it´s still balanced.
2) I use the fluff as it is in my head. Sorry, I don´t really see a way to be objective here.
3) I agree that balanced close games are fun. I disagree that extremes are bad. If you don´t want extremes, remove all armies except space marines from the game. Also remove everything except tactical marines. Then you have a truly balanced game with no extremes.
If there are no clear distinctions between armies and units, they will all feel the same, which makes the game bland and boring. Naturally this will introduce potentially extreme scenarios, when you get caught on the wrong foot, but those are just part of the game. The critical point is to write the rules in such a way that - however extreme they are - you can overcome those extremes with skill and the right units. I may not have succeeded in this. Give me 50+ games playtesting my rules and I will adjust them. Give me another 100+ games and I will reach a ruleset which will probably have some good balance. Or maybe not. I may need way more games than that. I never tried this.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/02/09 17:08:51
OKorVesah wrote: @JNAProductions: Remember, that last edition WS also had defensive purposes. Now that this is gone (and I scrapped Kroot´s 6+ armor) Kroot have nothing. I gave them -1 to hit in melee to give them some semblance of defence (at least in melee, where they are supposed to be).
@Lance845: 1) This is not a problem. If everyone is the best, then noone is. Look at super smash bros, where you pit "the best" from many different universes against each other, and it´s still balanced.
No. You are missing the point. If 5 marines can kill 1000 Tau but the Tau can not just fight against the imperium but win and push them back while having inferior numbers then there is no way to reconcile that into rules. They are contradictory statements.
2) I use the fluff as it is in my head. Sorry, I don´t really see a way to be objective here.
Your head canon is meaningless. Again, fluff is the worst place to start.
3) I agree that balanced close games are fun. I disagree that extremes are bad.
Well... Your just wrong about that. It's not an opinion thing. This is fact. The more your game design pushes units into further and further extremes the more games will hinge on those extremes and the less close any match will be. It's inherent in those extremes. Just look at 7th editions deathstar units. Those were extremes that crippled game play.
If you don´t want extremes, remove all armies except space marines from the game. Also remove everything except tactical marines. Then you have a truly balanced game with no extremes.
I didn't say remove variety. I said stop following inconsistent fluff and base your rules in fun and balance first.
If there are no clear distinctions between armies and units, they will all feel the same, which makes the game bland and boring. Naturally this will introduce potentially extreme scenarios, when you get caught on the wrong foot, but those are just part of the game. The critical point is to write the rules in such a way that - however extreme they are - you can overcome those extremes with skill and the right units. I may not have succeeded in this. Give me 50+ games playtesting my rules and I will adjust them. Give me another 100+ games and I will reach a ruleset which will probably have some good balance. Or maybe not. I may need way more games than that. I never tried this.
I have, your foundation is bad. And the longer you go on a crap foundation the worse everything you build on it will be.
Instead of trying to imitate fluff you should start with a strong central core rule set. Then you should create distinct game play goals for each army. Keeping them simple. Mobile Gun Line for tau is a good blanket statement that encompasses your design goal. Build them to support that end without going to the extremes the fluff implies but instead always with an eye towards balance and fun.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Lance845 wrote: Instead of trying to imitate fluff you should start with a strong central core rule set. Then you should create distinct game play goals for each army. Keeping them simple. Mobile Gun Line for tau is a good blanket statement that encompasses your design goal. Build them to support that end without going to the extremes the fluff implies but instead always with an eye towards balance and fun.
No. You are missing the point. If 5 marines can kill 1000 Tau but the Tau can not just fight against the imperium but win and push them back while having inferior numbers then there is no way to reconcile that into rules. They are contradictory statements.
There is a simple way to reconcile them. Don´t take the statements literal. See them as propaganda, spread by the respective races (incidentally, most statements about how op a race is are found in the respective codizes). Reality lies somewhere in between "5 marines kill 100 firewarriors" and "5 firewarriors kill 100 marines".
Instead of trying to imitate fluff you should start with a strong central core rule set. Then you should create distinct game play goals for each army. Keeping them simple. Mobile Gun Line for tau is a good blanket statement that encompasses your design goal. Build them to support that end without going to the extremes the fluff implies but instead always with an eye towards balance and fun.
That is exactly what I´m trying to do here. Apparently I failed catastrophically, or we are failing pretty hard to understand each other.
Also, I´m getting the suspicion, that we have very different ideas of what "fluff" means.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/09 19:20:01
This must be a troll rule set. Look back into some of these threads if you want an example of people disliking 2+ Tau shooting from previous editions. Killing marker lights might be easy if they werent dirt cheap in your points. And you get a 12” diameter to stack all the 2+ shooting you could ever want for the low cost of the ethereal (who’s a mandatory selection thanks to all the buffs with barely any cost).
How on earth is it fun to have a unit that 50% of the time stops you from doing anything to it? That’s just bad game design.
So kroot shapers need that to be useful? Most characters get a 3” intervention and you think it’s balanced to let entire units do it at 6”?
Also why does any weapon need to be AP-6?
You might as well not even set up models with this rule set. Just announce you’re playing tau, shake your opponents hand, and chalk up another glorious victory. I guess you did manage to speed up the game at least
That is exactly what I´m trying to do here. Apparently I failed catastrophically, or we are failing pretty hard to understand each other.
Yeah, probably.
Let me quote you.
Primary priority is rules which are fun and fit the fluff. Secondary priority is balance.
Since balance is more or less needed for game play fun, you are looking for some kind of story based fun. Fluff first. Balance second. That is not what I told you you should do. In fact I told you to do the opposite of that.
Also, I´m getting the suspicion, that we have very different ideas of what "fluff" means.
Lets clear it up then. Fluff is story. Crunch is rules. If you are basing your crunch on fluff you are failing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/09 21:45:45
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
