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Cynista wrote:
Surely they should have said that the entire army needs to share the IMPERIUM keyword to use an assassin, rather than just a detachment.

Anyways, they were already good. Now with the buffs and strats, they are pretty OP. But I guess that's par for the course with the amount of power creep we are seeing. And I'd rather them be OP than be bad and never see action, because they sure are cool

I expect that will be the fix.

They were good at the launch of 8e, when everything was Index. Through most of 8th so far they've been lackluster to poor. This gets them back up to playable imo.

I don't hate the abilities - they need some testing to see if they are too cheap at 85 points, but if they are going to be meta relevant they can't be too expensive.
I really don't like the list tailoring stratagem though. That feels like something that shouldn't be in matched play.

The Culexus was good, is good and will continue to be the go to option. +2 on psychic tests is massive and he is weirdly good as a chaff/blocking unit due to only taking hits on 6s. Also - oh, you charged my knight and I'm now in 3" of you? I'm sorry, you fight last. Enjoy the tap dance. This is another nail in assault-based armies versus our IG+Castelan overlords. Actual offensive output is so-so, but with all these perks? Not sure it matters.

I think the Callidus is the weakest on paper (has this been the case from 2nd edition?) but reign of confusion over two turns could really mess with some stratagem dependent armies.

For me both the Vindicare and Eversor are theoretically good against certain opponents, mediocre against others and I therefore suspect they won't see much use. Could be totally wrong here though.

Wasn't the Callidus using Polymorphine and Terminator armour a silly combo in 2nd?

Just take a look at Illic Nightspear to see the power difference between 2 Sniper characters for 85 points.

I seriously hope the Vindicare it's fixed with only triggering the Headshot in wound rolls of 6+ it would be quite Op anyway but not stupidly broken vs several armies.

edited by ingtaer, please don't use that word in that context.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Wasn't the Callidus using Polymorphine and Terminator armour a silly combo in 2nd?

While on a bike!

 Stux wrote:

Wayniac wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Headshot looks entirely stupid also. Goodbye any Ork character. I'm rapidly losing faith in GWs ability to balance this game.

I think for most people that faith disappeared the minute they moved away from the Index (or even during). Honestly, is anyone surprised? Did anyone really buy that BS about balancing the game? It was a PR stunt like virtually everything else they mentioned in the previews, in politician-level doublespeak so they could renege on it later and make it out like they never said anything of the sort.

This is so silly. Of they want to make a good game! So much cynicism here. Yeah, they don't always get it right, but it's a hell of a lot harder than anyone gives credit. Ridiculous number of variables, it's inherently unbalancable.

Welcome to Dakka Dakka.
We have a tradition here of blowing everything out of proportion as quickly as we possibly can and always assuming the worst.
It's a glorious place, a place where armies are terrible right to the point where some player starts winning with it (then it becomes OP and needs NERFS NOW or OMG GW WANTS THEIR GAME TO BE UNBALANCED!!!!)

Enjoy your stay.


In all seriousness though, I highly doubt Assassins are going to break the game.

The Culexus is roughly the same as it was, maybe slightly worse depending on if you bring your own Psychers or not.

The Callidus and Vindicare are probably worth taking now compared to the other two.
The main function of the Callidus is still forcing your opponent to spend more CPs than planned ( lol at making Agents of Vect cost 5CPs).

Vindicare still suffers from the issues Sniper characters have had this whole edition, always just a single dice roll away from accomplishing nothing. Might actually make players think a little about character placement (like use LOS blocking cover) rather than just wandering around in the open and abusing targeting rules.

The Eversor is good, really just a beat stick, best against chaff, as opposed to something like a Solitaire which is best against characters.

To get full use out of them they're going to be CP hogs too, and combined with other armies that are also CP hogs (knights, BAs, etc). A Guard, knight, etc list that then goes against another imperial list with a Callidus is going to run out of CPs fast especially considering most CPs are spent in the first 2 turns of the game.

Tyel wrote:
I don't hate the abilities - they need some testing to see if they are too cheap at 85 points, but if they are going to be meta relevant they can't be too expensive.

The vindicare is the one to watch.

The other three haven't really changed outside of the utility strats, the melee damage buffs just pulling them along in line with the changes since release - the eversor in particular with all of his improvements is still looking at burning 2CPs just to wipe out a 5 man tactical squad.

Tyel wrote:
I don't hate the abilities - they need some testing to see if they are too cheap at 85 points, but if they are going to be meta relevant they can't be too expensive.
I really don't like the list tailoring stratagem though. That feels like something that shouldn't be in matched play.

The Culexus was good, is good and will continue to be the go to option. +2 on psychic tests is massive and he is weirdly good as a chaff/blocking unit due to only taking hits on 6s. Also - oh, you charged my knight and I'm now in 3" of you? I'm sorry, you fight last. Enjoy the tap dance. This is another nail in assault-based armies versus our IG+Castelan overlords. Actual offensive output is so-so, but with all these perks? Not sure it matters.

I think the Callidus is the weakest on paper (has this been the case from 2nd edition?) but reign of confusion over two turns could really mess with some stratagem dependent armies.

For me both the Vindicare and Eversor are theoretically good against certain opponents, mediocre against others and I therefore suspect they won't see much use. Could be totally wrong here though.

Well, people did use assassins earlier this edition. I think people just found the detachment too cumbersome as well as dead weight for less than psychic opponents.

It still has to replace something - mortars, a wyvern, ogryns? Depending on your list that might be better or worse.

Welp, now I need to see the Primaris Scouts to know if they're worthy... the Vindicare is a beast now

 Vector Strike wrote:
Welp, now I need to see the Primaris Scouts to know if they're worthy... the Vindicare is a beast now

Agreed. This sort of killed my desire to run the Primaris Snipers. Vindicare will likely exceed their abilities. And Headshot takes care of one of the major weaknesses of the Vindy, not doing enough damage.

No saves against Culexus melee weapons...
He has no melee weapons.

 DeffDred wrote:
No saves against Culexus melee weapons...
He has no melee weapons.

He has his hands, which is exactly how he killed things in past editions, by ripping them apart by hand.

 DeffDred wrote:
No saves against Culexus melee weapons...
He has no melee weapons.

BRB disagrees.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Against range weapons only, if they stay within 9 of an incredibly expensive character.

Also completely off topic. The misdirections people will use to try and detract from broken things they like the sound of never ceases to amuse.

I would hardly call that incredibly expensive or hard to do. In any case much of these weapons ignore invulvs.

Orks have runts, oilers, grots, and a D3 heal. They're not under significant threat from snipers. Eversors should be the bigger concern since one could take 20 boyz.

120 pts is expensive for Orks.

D3 heal is on a 4W character with a 6+ save that the Vindicare will kill first.
Grots is a stratagem so can only be used once per phase.
Oilers and Runts protect our characters for a turn.

Eversors are indeed another greater problem but we should be able to counter charge them.

What baffles me about all this is GW is buffing the strongest faction even more. What are they thinking? Do we all have to play Imperium to play at the highest level?
E - formatting

I dont think GW is planning to buff a particular faction, it just happens to be that the good guys team up together. If they were to balance the game, they would have to intentionally make imperium weaker to make up for all the ally potential. At least now they try and make cool rules for armies.

At the end of the day they want to sell models so it will always be compromised.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:


What baffles me about all this is GW is buffing the strongest faction even more. What are they thinking? Do we all have to play Imperium to play at the highest level?

Incidentally buffing them. They're addressing an unused portion of the game that *may* also help the strongest soup.

There's still a lot to unpack.

The more I ponder the more I think 3 Vindicares could be quite scary. 255 points for 3.

2 * .833 * .833 * .833 * 2 = 2.3 + at least 1.3 from headshot is just about 4 wounds
Then double tap another target and the third vindi uses turbo : 1.2 + .7 + 2 is also about 4 wounds.

So two non-primaris / non-termie HQs dead in one turn - disregarding any lucky 6s.

If this takes root along with GSC then transports are going to be absolutely mandatory. What does that mean for IG/Castellan? They need to spend a ton more on defense. This might get interesting - sniping out the priest makes Bullgryns that much weaker. Sniping Straken as well makes Catachans doubly worse.

Yeah the problem with Vindicares is not 1. With 1 you aren't gonna kill anything as fast as you need to do it to be worthwhile.

But with 3? 3 vindicares will be popping characters left and right, without a problem, and even sit on objetives with a -2 to hit and character protection.

Vindicare is now my answer for solitaires. Praise the emperor!

 Galas wrote:
Yeah the problem with Vindicares is not 1. With 1 you aren't gonna kill anything as fast as you need to do it to be worthwhile.

But with 3? 3 vindicares will be popping characters left and right, without a problem, and even sit on objetives with a -2 to hit and character protection.

But your paying 255pts so it seems a fair trade. If your an enemy character you just need to use terrain better or use a transport (either inside it or use it for cover). With fair terrain you should be able to counter deploy against vindicares too.

 Smirrors wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Yeah the problem with Vindicares is not 1. With 1 you aren't gonna kill anything as fast as you need to do it to be worthwhile.

But with 3? 3 vindicares will be popping characters left and right, without a problem, and even sit on objetives with a -2 to hit and character protection.

But your paying 255pts so it seems a fair trade. If your an enemy character you just need to use terrain better or use a transport (either inside it or use it for cover). With fair terrain you should be able to counter deploy against vindicares too.

Vindicares ignore cover. The only way to prevent them from shooting you at a 2+ to hit is by making it so they can't see you.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

Wayniac wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Headshot looks entirely stupid also. Goodbye any Ork character. I'm rapidly losing faith in GWs ability to balance this game.

I think for most people that faith disappeared the minute they moved away from the Index (or even during). Honestly, is anyone surprised? Did anyone really buy that BS about balancing the game? It was a PR stunt like virtually everything else they mentioned in the previews, in politician-level doublespeak so they could renege on it later and make it out like they never said anything of the sort.

Want to know what I think is incredibly stupid? Every ork in an army being covered by a 5++ save.

*cough * requires huge amount of points and logistics that offers a fine balance for a skilled player who organises their army well vs a player who brings a unit, stands still, shoots and easily kills that 1 character and causes your entire plan to down fall *cough*

**cough, cough** A highly skilled player wouldn't put all their eggs in one basket **cough**

**cough, cough, cough** then why tf are you complaining? All ork players are skilled. Now go annoy a daemon player...

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Vindicares ignore cover. The only way to prevent them from shooting you at a 2+ to hit is by making it so they can't see you.

Thats what I meant. If they cant see you they cant shoot you. Character rules already allow some silly interactions. Now you can't sit you character in the open and expect them to survive which is highly thematic.

255pts is nothing to sneeze at. I know personally when I list build I want to cram so much stuff in that I can see myself freeing up 85pts but 255pts is a whole new ball game.

 lolman1c wrote:


**cough, cough, cough** then why tf are you complaining? All ork players are skilled. Now go annoy a daemon player...

Mini-daemon HQs are going to get the super shaft from assassins and GSC unless they get some sort of character protection rule, but they're the outlier, I think.

255pts is nothing to sneeze at. I know personally when I list build I want to cram so much stuff in that I can see myself freeing up 85pts but 255pts is a whole new ball game.

Also, 3 Vindicares means one of your three (or less!) detachments is a 0CP Vanguard Detachment, which could itself be a pretty hefty downside.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:


What baffles me about all this is GW is buffing the strongest faction even more. What are they thinking? Do we all have to play Imperium to play at the highest level?

Incidentally buffing them. They're addressing an unused portion of the game that *may* also help the strongest soup.

There's still a lot to unpack.

The more I ponder the more I think 3 Vindicares could be quite scary. 255 points for 3.

2 * .833 * .833 * .833 * 2 = 2.3 + at least 1.3 from headshot is just about 4 wounds
Then double tap another target and the third vindi uses turbo : 1.2 + .7 + 2 is also about 4 wounds.

So two non-primaris / non-termie HQs dead in one turn - disregarding any lucky 6s.

If this takes root along with GSC then transports are going to be absolutely mandatory. What does that mean for IG/Castellan? They need to spend a ton more on defense. This might get interesting - sniping out the priest makes Bullgryns that much weaker. Sniping Straken as well makes Catachans doubly worse.

I view it like this: Ork players have had almost no defence for their HQ'S since 8th, all while being on an unequal playing feilds by being unable to snipe another players HQ's/characters back. Even with an invulnerable save you have snipers that just bypass it. Orks have almost zero defence against an assassin who sits in the back surrounded by cheap guard (I know from testing them out). From my groups experiments during the index phase, the Orks would lose a good 2 or 3 HQ'S or characters by turn 2 from assassins sat on the other side of the field. A well placed buffer zone can make them neigh invulnerable to factions that don't have snipers. However, recently, it has got to the point where even if we had snipers it wouldn't matter as the vast majority of Imperial players warlords are Knights!

The callidus just became a "must take" in any imperial army...…...

While I've always liked the Assassins as concept and a faction, giving IOM another +1 just slot me in option with no real downside is not what the game needs. The fact you don't even need to pick one ahead of time is even more insane.

I really hope that the does not become a trend. Being able to put points aside and just pull a tool from a diverse list depending on my opponent is a bad game play mechanic.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
While I've always liked the Assassins as concept and a faction, giving IOM another +1 just slot me in option with no real downside is not what the game needs. The fact you don't even need to pick one ahead of time is even more insane.

I really hope that the does not become a trend. Being able to put points aside and just pull a tool from a diverse list depending on my opponent is a bad game play mechanic.

Its like MtG side boards, you have more tools and opponents cannot build lists to specifically to counter yours; its already in play such as daemon summonings.

Your list should be your list. It should be made with the meta in mind and at most a rough idea of what faction your opponents might have. I should not be able to look at my opponents list and then a minute before the game starts say hmm took a bunch of xyz, slot in relevant countermeasures.

The assassins are specialized units and when you take a unit that is that specialized you should run the risk of your opponent not taking things that will play to that unit's strengths.


The fact that IOM super friends is the last army that needed another ace option that gives it a one up is also relevant.

Sideboarding is actualy a very GOOD addition to the game competitively. The issue is some armies cannot sideboard and some can.