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"Recursive", "Diminishing", and "Geometric".

"Recursive": If each step depends on the previous step, we can say it's recursive. In theory, you could define any given step without referencing the previous one, but for this sort of thing you generally wouldn't. This is probably the term you're looking for.

"Diminishing" just means each round is smaller.

"Geometric" is probably the best term, but this diminishes faster than "Geometric" typically does. When the odds of it occuring once (more), regardless of how many times it has ocurred, is some value, we can say it's geometric. So if it had a 1/6 chance to happen, and if it succeeds, it now has a 1/6 chance to happen, and soforth - that's considered geometric.

In this case, though, there are only 4 states (because we eventually get to a 7+ roll, which can't succeed). So we don't get to do the fancy math.

Someone keeps telling me that you can now take assassins in a chaos army because of cypher, is this true?

 Formosa wrote:
Someone keeps telling me that you can now take assassins in a chaos army because of cypher, is this true?

He's got the imperium keyword, and he can be your warlord, so yeppers!

the_scotsman wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Someone keeps telling me that you can now take assassins in a chaos army because of cypher, is this true?

He's got the imperium keyword, and he can be your warlord, so yeppers!

The problem is, you have to take Cypher as your Warlord....

Could you imagine the vitrol Aeldari would get if these rules or points values applied to:
Drahlzar
Illiac
Solitaire
Maugan'Ra?

Bharring wrote:
Could you imagine the vitrol Aeldari would get if these rules or points values applied to:
Drahlzar
Illiac
Solitaire
Maugan'Ra?

Well, frankly, the Phoenix lords and other Eldar 'ancient super dudes' should have stronger rules than they currently do. As for points, yeah, that's my only worry about these assassins, I think their rules are about what they should, but the point cost seems a tad cheap for what you get.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Someone keeps telling me that you can now take assassins in a chaos army because of cypher, is this true?

He's got the imperium keyword, and he can be your warlord, so yeppers!

but doesnt that mean I can only take fallen with him due to the keyword system?

IMO a solitaire is pretty comparable to one of the melee characters.

Illic, like all sniper characters currently in the game, is hilariously underpowered at actually doing his job of killing characters. For some reason people seem to lose their minds with 9 page threads if a sniper has anything more than hilariously astronomical odds of actually doing its job against a character standing out in the open with no bodyguards.

Maugan Ra and Drazar don't seem to be...anything comparable to an assassin? Maugan Ra is a dude with a machine gun that buffs a backline artillery unit...

CaN U iMaGiNe ThE vItRiOl If A rHiNo HaD rUlEs LiKe ThIs?

Drazar is the Phoenix Lord of Murder and Assasins. How is he not? Granted, his defenses are a bit higher than some of the IoM ones (a T4 2+ vs T4 4++).

Maugan Ra, yeah, he doesn't belong on that list.

Bharring wrote:
Drazar is the Phoenix Lord of Murder and Assasins. How is he not? Granted, his defenses are a bit higher than some of the IoM ones (a T4 2+ vs T4 4++).

Maugan Ra, yeah, he doesn't belong on that list.

He's certainly the pheonix lord of the incubi, who last time I checked were fluffed as murder-obsessed, sure, but much more "bodyguard" than "assassin". "assassin" would be Mandrakes.

You won't find any arguments from me that he's nowhere near worth his points, though. I just don't think it makes sense to compare him to imperial assassins, because he is neither a sniper, nor a psyker-hunter, nor a suicide bomb melee deep striker.

He's not really much of anything. A MEQ-mulcher maybe? That's kind of his problem.

In theory, the assasins of each major power would be different. In the ideal game state, there'd be Chaos, GSC, and possibly T'au assasins too (probably not Necrons or Orks, but that's debateable).

Incubi find work as "bodyguards", but from what I read are much more about murder than guarding. Don't you have to assasinate a Craftworlder just to join?

Bharring wrote:
In theory, the assasins of each major power would be different. In the ideal game state, there'd be Chaos, GSC, and possibly T'au assasins too (probably not Necrons or Orks, but that's debateable).

Incubi find work as "bodyguards", but from what I read are much more about murder than guarding. Don't you have to assasinate a Craftworlder just to join?

Orks have Snikrot

The problem is that it's effortless for a Guard player to bring as many assassins as they want on top of their Castellan. You can fit anything in a brigade basically, it's an unlimited detachment for all intents and purposes. So losing a detachment on assassins isn't a big deal.

3 Vindicares behind a wall of imperial guardsmen?

That's 255 points to *expect* to delete pretty much any character in the game before you factor in important CP rerolls. And, it's entirely possible to cripple other armies. For example, plop them down and potentially kill 3 weirdboyz turn 1. Orks are dead without Da Jump. If they bring "da jump" on 2 weirdboyz you have 4 shots (thanks to strat) to kill 2 weirdboyz, and you have a CP reroll in case you need it.

Your average SM army can't invest in something like this, because they're points starved and CP starved, and the loss of board presence as well as CP is brutal. Sisters may be able to take advantage of these as well, because they're very cheap for what they are - in practice - a 3+/4++ wall of 9ppm chaff that is actually very effective at shooting.

The amount of butt hurt and whining is far superior to the actual rules. So delicious.

 Marmatag wrote:
The problem is that it's effortless for a Guard player to bring as many assassins as they want on top of their Castellan. You can fit anything in a brigade basically, it's an unlimited detachment for all intents and purposes. So losing a detachment on assassins isn't a big deal.

3 Vindicares behind a wall of imperial guardsmen?

That's 255 points to *expect* to delete pretty much any character in the game before you factor in important CP rerolls. And, it's entirely possible to cripple other armies. For example, plop them down and potentially kill 3 weirdboyz turn 1. Orks are dead without Da Jump.

Your average SM army can't invest in something like this, because they're points starved, and the loss of board presence as well as CP is brutal. Sisters may be able to take advantage of these as well, because they're very cheap for what they are - in practice - a 3+/4++ wall of 9ppm chaff that is actually very effective at shooting.

Right. So the basic problem is really that the guard is too cheap and generates CP too effectively.

Bharring wrote:
In theory, the assasins of each major power would be different. In the ideal game state, there'd be Chaos, GSC, and possibly T'au assasins too (probably not Necrons or Orks, but that's debateable).

Incubi find work as "bodyguards", but from what I read are much more about murder than guarding. Don't you have to assasinate a Craftworlder just to join?

You need to kill an aspect warrior. They don't care how. You just keep using the word "assassinate" because it fits the idea youre trying to construct - incubi are mercenaries usually employed as bodyguards, which is what they're fluffed as and why they don't get traits but can be used with wych cults, kabals or covens freely.

They are "assassins" just like every dark eldar unit can be considered an "assassin" because in the fluff drukhari do a lot of assassinating people. That's all.

There are GSC assassins. They exist in the lore now, and they fit thematically with the sneaky/tricky nature of the army. There are also Tyranid creatures fluffed as assassins, Necron units fluffed as assassins (deathmarks), Eldar units fluffed as assassins..

most of them don't function in 8th, because characters have seriously outsized protections in 8th - not only can't they be targeted, but typically they have 4+ wounds and usually at least a 5++ invuln save, and usually more defenses than that.

Hits on 2, wounds on 2, ignores invuln with D3 damage and SOME kind of way to cause extra wounds is almost the bare minimum you need to have a functional "sniper" type unit in 8th that can ever possibly one-shot KO even the wimpiest guard commander. Even then, the Vindicare doesn't have great odds at doing that. The compound probability is tricky to do (because how many wounds he needs to get via Headshot is dependent on how much damage he did with his initial roll) but I estimate he's got around a 55% chance of dealing 4 wounds to a guard commander.

Versus a marine captain, you're most likely looking at odds down around 33% or lower.

And don't get me wrong, that's WAY better than almost every other sniper type character in the game. Poor Telion has to pop off both his shots, wound on both with no help, get past a save with just a -1 and then roll well on both D3 rolls....but people seem to like seeing those odds in the sub-10% range.

 Crimson wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
The problem is that it's effortless for a Guard player to bring as many assassins as they want on top of their Castellan. You can fit anything in a brigade basically, it's an unlimited detachment for all intents and purposes. So losing a detachment on assassins isn't a big deal.

3 Vindicares behind a wall of imperial guardsmen?

That's 255 points to *expect* to delete pretty much any character in the game before you factor in important CP rerolls. And, it's entirely possible to cripple other armies. For example, plop them down and potentially kill 3 weirdboyz turn 1. Orks are dead without Da Jump.

Your average SM army can't invest in something like this, because they're points starved, and the loss of board presence as well as CP is brutal. Sisters may be able to take advantage of these as well, because they're very cheap for what they are - in practice - a 3+/4++ wall of 9ppm chaff that is actually very effective at shooting.

Right. So the basic problem is really that the guard is too cheap and generates CP too effectively.

Yes. And this problem exacerbates when rules like these for assassins get released.

I actually like the new assassin rules.

But people need to realize GW is enabling Guard to dominate even harder.

We need a CP-for-points-invested system.

To get the CP out of a battalion, you need to invest 750 points.
To get the CP out of a brigade, you need to invest 1500 points.

etc.

On top of this guard needs a price hike. And Ynnari should be squatted entirely.

Fundamentally, the "thing" assassins are meant to do (Gib the guy in charge) interacts really badly with the game's current focus on buff-stick leaders. I think that's less an issue with the units themselves and more an issue with an aspect of 8th edition's design. I also agree that barebones Battalions are another issue exacerbating the potential feel-bads around these units.

 Marmatag wrote:
The problem is that it's effortless for a Guard player to bring as many assassins as they want on top of their Castellan. You can fit anything in a brigade basically, it's an unlimited detachment for all intents and purposes. So losing a detachment on assassins isn't a big deal.

3 Vindicares behind a wall of imperial guardsmen?

That's 255 points to *expect* to delete pretty much any character in the game before you factor in important CP rerolls. And, it's entirely possible to cripple other armies. For example, plop them down and potentially kill 3 weirdboyz turn 1. Orks are dead without Da Jump. If they bring "da jump" on 2 weirdboyz you have 4 shots (thanks to strat) to kill 2 weirdboyz, and you have a CP reroll in case you need it.

Your average SM army can't invest in something like this, because they're points starved and CP starved, and the loss of board presence as well as CP is brutal. Sisters may be able to take advantage of these as well, because they're very cheap for what they are - in practice - a 3+/4++ wall of 9ppm chaff that is actually very effective at shooting.

255 points of assassins do 5.902 damage to power-armored targets on average.

255 points of eldar rangers do 4.78 damage, and provide 4/6 of the troop slots in a brigade.

255 points of marine scouts with sniper rifles do 4.52 damage, and again, 4/6 of the troop slots in a brigade.

Is there a reason why you consider the latter two to be bad at dealing with characters, when they do nearly as much and have access to far more aura buffs and provide a huge number of CPs, but the former potentially OP when it costs CPs?

Vindicares have a 72" range - much bigger than 36" isn't it?
Vindicares can deep strike (or, they could, i think this might have gotten taken away?)
Vindicares can be snapped onto the most powerful army in the game. (this is the core problem)
Vindicares are -2 to hit, and a have a 4++


is there a reason you're intentionally obtuse?

the problem isn't with the vindicare, it's that it gets bolted onto the most powerful army which suffers no drawbacks to adding them.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
The problem is that it's effortless for a Guard player to bring as many assassins as they want on top of their Castellan. You can fit anything in a brigade basically, it's an unlimited detachment for all intents and purposes. So losing a detachment on assassins isn't a big deal.

3 Vindicares behind a wall of imperial guardsmen?

That's 255 points to *expect* to delete pretty much any character in the game before you factor in important CP rerolls. And, it's entirely possible to cripple other armies. For example, plop them down and potentially kill 3 weirdboyz turn 1. Orks are dead without Da Jump. If they bring "da jump" on 2 weirdboyz you have 4 shots (thanks to strat) to kill 2 weirdboyz, and you have a CP reroll in case you need it.

Your average SM army can't invest in something like this, because they're points starved and CP starved, and the loss of board presence as well as CP is brutal. Sisters may be able to take advantage of these as well, because they're very cheap for what they are - in practice - a 3+/4++ wall of 9ppm chaff that is actually very effective at shooting.

255 points of assassins do 5.902 damage to power-armored targets on average.

255 points of eldar rangers do 4.78 damage, and provide 4/6 of the troop slots in a brigade.

255 points of marine scouts with sniper rifles do 4.52 damage, and again, 4/6 of the troop slots in a brigade.

Is there a reason why you consider the latter two to be bad at dealing with characters, when they do nearly as much and have access to far more aura buffs and provide a huge number of CPs, but the former potentially OP when it costs CPs?

None of the troops have a 72 inch range. None of the troops ignore Invuln saves.

None of the troops can be swapped out for a Pskyer-munching HQ when you want that instead...

I figured I'd name Dralzur instead of Karrandas, as I've always viewed Dralzur/Incubi as the assasins and Karrandas/current-Scorpions as ambushers. And didn't want to name them both.

 Marmatag wrote:
Vindicares have a 72" range
Vindicares can deep strike
Vindicares can be snapped onto the most powerful army in the game.
Vindicares are -2 to hit, and a have a 4++


is there a reason you're intentionally obtuse?

1) 36" with the ability to deploy anywhere vs 72". Definitely going to make a huge difference on a standard 4'X6' table.

2) you want to deep strike a sniper. OK. Good job giving up a turn of shooting, you get a cookie.

3) So can marine scouts, exactly as easily. Or heck, ratlings, which can be put in their own detachments, and deal more damage for less points.

4) those sure are stats of the model. Those rangers have a 3+sv, -1 to hit, and 8 more wounds total.

TBH, the very best thing about the vindicare is that he's a goddamn character and as I said before, characters are hilariously broken. My overall point here though is that there are character sniping solutions that exist in the game and in the guard codex that deal more damage for less points and do not appear in the competitive meta and instead are passed up for other options. And critically, those options usually have much more reliable average damages - 30 guys cracking off shots is a lot better than 3 guys who REALLY REALLY don't like to roll any 1s ever.

So, why should I consider this any kind of game changer, or significant tip of the meta scales in favor of guard? The vindicare assassin, a model generally considered a never-include, got a stratagem allowing him to shoot twice against two different targets and an ability that boosts his average damage by 20%. Great. Maybe he'll be a half-decent model now?

I thought in order to take assassins, they needed their own distinct detachment, as they do not currently share key words outside of imperium. Sorta like Inquisitors? They aren't even listed in a codex yet, so, how do you just auto include them? They still need to be a separate detachment, right? Please help me understand how we vaulted over the core rules on this.

Secondly, they have always been rather broken, and I never understood why they aren't taken more. Now they are slightly more broken, but still? I don't see many people including these for the same reasons they weren't included before. LOS stops Vindicaire cold. And if you are letting your opponent dictate the high ground you deserve to be in the kill zone.

Culexus, Eversor, and Callidus are just Slam Captains by another stripe. Handle the same way.

Is anyone expecting people to radically alter lists and start using assassins? Seriously, show of hands. I think my FLG has sold 2 models in the past 3 years, both vindys, and I was the one who bought them.

 mokoshkana wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
The problem is that it's effortless for a Guard player to bring as many assassins as they want on top of their Castellan. You can fit anything in a brigade basically, it's an unlimited detachment for all intents and purposes. So losing a detachment on assassins isn't a big deal.

3 Vindicares behind a wall of imperial guardsmen?

That's 255 points to *expect* to delete pretty much any character in the game before you factor in important CP rerolls. And, it's entirely possible to cripple other armies. For example, plop them down and potentially kill 3 weirdboyz turn 1. Orks are dead without Da Jump. If they bring "da jump" on 2 weirdboyz you have 4 shots (thanks to strat) to kill 2 weirdboyz, and you have a CP reroll in case you need it.

Your average SM army can't invest in something like this, because they're points starved and CP starved, and the loss of board presence as well as CP is brutal. Sisters may be able to take advantage of these as well, because they're very cheap for what they are - in practice - a 3+/4++ wall of 9ppm chaff that is actually very effective at shooting.

255 points of assassins do 5.902 damage to power-armored targets on average.

255 points of eldar rangers do 4.78 damage, and provide 4/6 of the troop slots in a brigade.

255 points of marine scouts with sniper rifles do 4.52 damage, and again, 4/6 of the troop slots in a brigade.

Is there a reason why you consider the latter two to be bad at dealing with characters, when they do nearly as much and have access to far more aura buffs and provide a huge number of CPs, but the former potentially OP when it costs CPs?

None of the troops have a 72 inch range. None of the troops ignore Invuln saves.

None of them need to. I listed their average damage into a target with a 3+ save. The relationship between their damage and the assassin's damage remains the same percentage wise if the target has a 4+, 3+, or 2+ save stat, and they catch up to the assassin if you're looking at 5+ or 6+ sv.

That's what happens if you compare 3 shots to 20+.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
None of the troops can be swapped out for a Pskyer-munching HQ when you want that instead...

I figured I'd name Dralzur instead of Karrandas, as I've always viewed Dralzur/Incubi as the assasins and Karrandas/current-Scorpions as ambushers. And didn't want to name them both.

Do your opponents typically let you swap out models freely from your list when you see what they've got in theirs?

In most of my games that's considered bad form.

I think even more than CP for Detachments is CP points. I don’t know why the game rewards you for taking understrength detachments up to the max allowable. Someone said it was to prioritize Troops, but Troops should be able to stand on their own merits.
I’d much prefer to see a CP for points, and then perhaps additional CP for detachments that are maybe filled. I think CP should be:

15 CP for 2k points.
-1 CP for each Detachment beyond the first detachment.
-1 for each detachment not of the main faction in the army.

This would push people to use the Larger Detachments, to avoid the -1 CP, and it would penalize soup. So Elder scum shows with Craftword Battlion (15 cp) then add a Harlequin Vanguard (-1 CP for second detachment, and -1 for Not Craftworld), and a Drukari Battalion (-1 CP for 3rd detachment, and -1 CP for Not Craftworld). Go play with 11 CP and enjoy your game.

 Marmatag wrote:
The problem is that it's effortless for a Guard player to bring as many assassins as they want on top of their Castellan. You can fit anything in a brigade basically, it's an unlimited detachment for all intents and purposes. So losing a detachment on assassins isn't a big deal.

3 Vindicares behind a wall of imperial guardsmen?

That's 255 points to *expect* to delete pretty much any character in the game before you factor in important CP rerolls. And, it's entirely possible to cripple other armies. For example, plop them down and potentially kill 3 weirdboyz turn 1. Orks are dead without Da Jump. If they bring "da jump" on 2 weirdboyz you have 4 shots (thanks to strat) to kill 2 weirdboyz, and you have a CP reroll in case you need it.

Your average SM army can't invest in something like this, because they're points starved and CP starved, and the loss of board presence as well as CP is brutal. Sisters may be able to take advantage of these as well, because they're very cheap for what they are - in practice - a 3+/4++ wall of 9ppm chaff that is actually very effective at shooting.

Trukks. Either be in them or block line of sight with them. Your opponent just spent 255 points to kill characters. 150 points on a couple Trukks seems like a worthy investment.

the_scotsman wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
The problem is that it's effortless for a Guard player to bring as many assassins as they want on top of their Castellan. You can fit anything in a brigade basically, it's an unlimited detachment for all intents and purposes. So losing a detachment on assassins isn't a big deal.

3 Vindicares behind a wall of imperial guardsmen?

That's 255 points to *expect* to delete pretty much any character in the game before you factor in important CP rerolls. And, it's entirely possible to cripple other armies. For example, plop them down and potentially kill 3 weirdboyz turn 1. Orks are dead without Da Jump. If they bring "da jump" on 2 weirdboyz you have 4 shots (thanks to strat) to kill 2 weirdboyz, and you have a CP reroll in case you need it.

Your average SM army can't invest in something like this, because they're points starved and CP starved, and the loss of board presence as well as CP is brutal. Sisters may be able to take advantage of these as well, because they're very cheap for what they are - in practice - a 3+/4++ wall of 9ppm chaff that is actually very effective at shooting.

255 points of assassins do 5.902 damage to power-armored targets on average.

255 points of eldar rangers do 4.78 damage, and provide 4/6 of the troop slots in a brigade.

255 points of marine scouts with sniper rifles do 4.52 damage, and again, 4/6 of the troop slots in a brigade.

Is there a reason why you consider the latter two to be bad at dealing with characters, when they do nearly as much and have access to far more aura buffs and provide a huge number of CPs, but the former potentially OP when it costs CPs?

None of the troops have a 72 inch range. None of the troops ignore Invuln saves.

None of them need to. I listed their average damage into a target with a 3+ save. The relationship between their damage and the assassin's damage remains the same percentage wise if the target has a 4+, 3+, or 2+ save stat, and they catch up to the assassin if you're looking at 5+ or 6+ sv.

That's what happens if you compare 3 shots to 20+.

Enjoy having all of those units deleted, while those Vindicare's systematically delete an HQ a turn while likely being immune to any retaliation.

Reemule wrote:
I think even more than CP for Detachments is CP points. I don’t know why the game rewards you for taking understrength detachments up to the max allowable. Someone said it was to prioritize Troops, but Troops should be able to stand on their own merits.
I’d much prefer to see a CP for points, and then perhaps additional CP for detachments that are maybe filled. I think CP should be:

15 CP for 2k points.
-1 CP for each Detachment beyond the first detachment.
-1 for each detachment not of the main faction in the army.

This would push people to use the Larger Detachments, to avoid the -1 CP, and it would penalize soup. So Elder scum shows with Craftword Battlion (15 cp) then add a Harlequin Vanguard (-1 CP for second detachment, and -1 for Not Craftworld), and a Drukari Battalion (-1 CP for 3rd detachment, and -1 CP for Not Craftworld). Go play with 11 CP and enjoy your game.

I would actually be fine with this, too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
The problem is that it's effortless for a Guard player to bring as many assassins as they want on top of their Castellan. You can fit anything in a brigade basically, it's an unlimited detachment for all intents and purposes. So losing a detachment on assassins isn't a big deal.

3 Vindicares behind a wall of imperial guardsmen?

That's 255 points to *expect* to delete pretty much any character in the game before you factor in important CP rerolls. And, it's entirely possible to cripple other armies. For example, plop them down and potentially kill 3 weirdboyz turn 1. Orks are dead without Da Jump. If they bring "da jump" on 2 weirdboyz you have 4 shots (thanks to strat) to kill 2 weirdboyz, and you have a CP reroll in case you need it.

Your average SM army can't invest in something like this, because they're points starved and CP starved, and the loss of board presence as well as CP is brutal. Sisters may be able to take advantage of these as well, because they're very cheap for what they are - in practice - a 3+/4++ wall of 9ppm chaff that is actually very effective at shooting.

Trukks. Either be in them or block line of sight with them. Your opponent just spent 255 points to kill characters. 150 points on a couple Trukks seems like a worthy investment.

Fine. Keep the Weirdboyz in trukks. If i stop you from casting Da Jump I win.

If i stop you from running a 5++ Ork up the table, that's a win.
If i stop you from leveraging the FNP ork that's a win too.
And of course Ghaz will get dropped like a bag of dirt.

Meanwhile a double-shooting Wyvern is ripping apart boyz every turn to the tune of 8d6 shots with sexy rerolls.

Mmm. Except that the 5++ ork and FNP ork aren't actually infantry, they're bikes, and they're T5, so you're killing less than one a turn with 255 points of vindicares.

Ghazghkull gets dropped like a bag of dirt...in the two turns it takes them to kill him, assuming the ork player just...decides not to grot shield him? "hey, should I let these assassins do 4.7 damage to ghazghkull, or kill three grots? Eh whatever, feth it, they can just hit ghazzy."

I love these arguments where the poster very nearly starts making machine gun noises with their mouth to disprove your point.

Then my basilisks shoot at your vehicles. Pchoo phcoo!

gotcha!

I guess the question I have for you is: What level of points return would you consider to be OK for a sniper unit to have? It seems like in a perfect situation like you describe, with them thwunking into naked buffer HQs, their points return seems to be about 40-50%, with about a 33% points return being more of a normal matchup. They get worse if their targets have 3+ or 2+ armor saves, and much worse if your opponent has bodyguard units that can tank lost wounds (or they get a first turn and their opponent hides the units or puts them in a transport).

How many turns does a shooting unit take to pay for itself for you to consider it "fair"? At current points, where they are basically never-includes, vindicares take 3 turns to make their points back in perfect situations, more likely 4 turns.