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Can GSC units gain the effects of tyranid powers like catalyst if they have the correct keywords?

On the surface I think yes. However in the nids FAQ there is this blurb:

Add the following section before ‘Abilities’:
‘Tyranids Units
In the rules described in this section we often refer to ‘Tyranids units’. This is shorthand for any Tyranids
unit that also has the <Hive Fleet> keyword. A Tyranids Detachment is therefore one which only includes units
with both the Tyranids and <Hive Fleet> keyword. Note that although Genestealer Cults are devoted to
the Hive Mind and will willingly fight alongside their xenos masters, they deviate significantly in terms of
organisation and tactics, not to mention physiology! Genestealer Cults units therefore cannot make use of
any of the rules listed in this section (this includes the Detachment abilities, Stratagems, bio-artefacts, psychic
powers, Warlord Traits and Tactical Objectives described in this section), and instead have their own rules.’


I take the above to mean they GSC units themselves cannot take the Tyranid "Detachment abilities, Stratagems, bio-artefacts, psychic
powers, Warlord Traits and Tactical Objectives described in this section". But can still benefit from their effects if they have the correct keywords.

Thoughts?

You are correct. Keywords on Auras and Psychic powers don't care what book the benefiting unit comes from, only that they have the correct keywords.

They cannot, elsewhere in the Tyranid FAQ it states that:

Tyranids Units
In the rules described in this section we often refer to
‘Tyranids units’. This is shorthand for any Tyranids
unit that also has the <Hive Fleet> keyword. A Tyranids
Detachment is therefore one which only includes units
with both the Tyranids and <Hive Fleet> keyword.

So Psychic spells such as Cataclyst that say "select a friendly TYRANIDS unit," would only affect Tyranids with the <Hive Fleet> keyword.

Pakman184 wrote:
They cannot, elsewhere in the Tyranid FAQ it states that:

Tyranids Units
In the rules described in this section we often refer to
‘Tyranids units’. This is shorthand for any Tyranids
unit that also has the <Hive Fleet> keyword. A Tyranids
Detachment is therefore one which only includes units
with both the Tyranids and <Hive Fleet> keyword.

So Psychic spells such as Cataclyst that say "select a friendly TYRANIDS unit," would only affect Tyranids with the <Hive Fleet> keyword.

That doesn't deal with just the TYRANID keyword or powers whatsoever, it's defining what is a Tyranids Detachment. It doesn't redefine what the TYRANID keyword is. Sorry, but you're entirely incorrect here.

From the designer's commentery:

Q: If I create an Astra Militarum
Regiment of my own and name them,
for example, the ‘Emperor’s Finest’, and
I then also create an Adeptus Astartes
Chapter of my own choosing, and also
call them the ‘Emperor’s Finest’, do the
abilities that work on the <Regiment>
and/or <Chapter> keywords now work
on both the Astra Militarum and Adeptus
Astartes units?
A: No.

Same thing here imo.

 kastelen wrote:
From the designer's commentery:

Q: If I create an Astra Militarum
Regiment of my own and name them,
for example, the ‘Emperor’s Finest’, and
I then also create an Adeptus Astartes
Chapter of my own choosing, and also
call them the ‘Emperor’s Finest’, do the
abilities that work on the <Regiment>
and/or <Chapter> keywords now work
on both the Astra Militarum and Adeptus
Astartes units?
A: No.

Same thing here imo.

No, it is not. You don't "pick" the TYRANID keyword. If the power affected <HIVE FLEET>, you'd be correct.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Pakman184 wrote:
They cannot, elsewhere in the Tyranid FAQ it states that:

Tyranids Units
In the rules described in this section we often refer to
‘Tyranids units’. This is shorthand for any Tyranids
unit that also has the <Hive Fleet> keyword. A Tyranids
Detachment is therefore one which only includes units
with both the Tyranids and <Hive Fleet> keyword.

So Psychic spells such as Cataclyst that say "select a friendly TYRANIDS unit," would only affect Tyranids with the <Hive Fleet> keyword.

That doesn't deal with just the TYRANID keyword or powers whatsoever, it's defining what is a Tyranids Detachment. It doesn't redefine what the TYRANID keyword is. Sorry, but you're entirely incorrect here.

I am not incorrect. The section that that was quoted out of is referring to "Tyranid Abilities." Just because it makes mention of Tyranid Detachments at the end doesn't actually change what it says, which is that Tyranid Units are Tyranids with the <Hive Fleet> Keyword. All of the friendly Tyranid spells say to target a Tyranid Unit, so they cannot be used on GSC.

EDIT: Though maybe I am. Perhaps there's a difference between "TYRANID Units" and "Tyranid Units," if that's the case then they would indeed work on GSC.

Pakman184 wrote:
I am not incorrect. The section that that was quoted out of is referring to "Tyranid Abilities." Just because it makes mention of Tyranid Detachments at the end doesn't actually change what it says, which is that Tyranid Units are Tyranids with the <Hive Fleet> Keyword. All of the friendly Tyranid spells say to target a Tyranid Unit, so they cannot be used on GSC.

EDIT: Though maybe I am. Perhaps there's a difference between "TYRANID Units" and "Tyranid Units," if that's the case then they would indeed work on GSC.

Yes, that is the case. Units with the TYRANID keyword are not the same as Tyranid Units.

Opiee wrote:
Can GSC units gain the effects of tyranid powers like catalyst if they have the correct keywords?

On the surface I think yes. However in the nids FAQ there is this blurb:

Add the following section before ‘Abilities’:
‘Tyranids Units
In the rules described in this section we often refer to ‘Tyranids units’. This is shorthand for any Tyranids
unit that also has the <Hive Fleet> keyword. A Tyranids Detachment is therefore one which only includes units
with both the Tyranids and <Hive Fleet> keyword. Note that although Genestealer Cults are devoted to
the Hive Mind and will willingly fight alongside their xenos masters, they deviate significantly in terms of
organisation and tactics, not to mention physiology! Genestealer Cults units therefore cannot make use of
any of the rules listed in this section (this includes the Detachment abilities, Stratagems, bio-artefacts, psychic
powers, Warlord Traits and Tactical Objectives described in this section), and instead have their own rules.’


I take the above to mean they GSC units themselves cannot take the Tyranid "Detachment abilities, Stratagems, bio-artefacts, psychic
powers, Warlord Traits and Tactical Objectives described in this section". But can still benefit from their effects if they have the correct keywords.

Thoughts?

Quoted in the rule. "cannot make use of any of the rules..", so no they cannot benefit even if the keywords match

The Tyranid keyword just allows GSC to be taken as allies for Tyranids atm and effects stuff like "shadow in the warp" which doesn't effect tyrranid psychers.

Fragile wrote:
Quoted in the rule. "cannot make use of any of the rules..", so no they cannot benefit even if the keywords match

That part only applies to Tyranid Units, not units with the TYRANID keyword.

It means GSC psykers can't take Tyranid powers, it doesn't mean they can't be affected by them.

To be honest that all buff with keyword TYRANIDS in Index is mistake as GW don’t want two faction share power and stratagem...

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Quoted in the rule. "cannot make use of any of the rules..", so no they cannot benefit even if the keywords match

That part only applies to Tyranid Units, not units with the TYRANID keyword.

It means GSC psykers can't take Tyranid powers, it doesn't mean they can't be affected by them.

Agreed.

A GSC unit that is the target of the power isn't "making use" of it. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to target an enemy GSC unit with Psychic Scream, because they would be "making use" of the power.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Quoted in the rule. "cannot make use of any of the rules..", so no they cannot benefit even if the keywords match

That part only applies to Tyranid Units, not units with the TYRANID keyword.

It means GSC psykers can't take Tyranid powers, it doesn't mean they can't be affected by them.

The Tyranid keyword has nothing to do with the rule that is cited.

Genestealer Cults units therefore cannot make use of any of the rules listed in this section

.

The restriction is on the GSC units, not Tyranid keywords


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stux wrote:
A GSC unit that is the target of the power isn't "making use" of it. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to target an enemy GSC unit with Psychic Scream, because they would be "making use" of the power.

Being targeted by an enemy power is not "making use of it".

The rule doesn't make a distinction, so getting hit by Psychic Scream or Catalyst is the same thing for these purposes.

Neither is being targeted by a friendly power.

 Stux wrote:
The rule doesn't make a distinction, so getting hit by Psychic Scream or Catalyst is the same thing for these purposes.

English language does. Being affected by something and being able to make use of something are entirely different.

Fragile wrote:

 Stux wrote:
The rule doesn't make a distinction, so getting hit by Psychic Scream or Catalyst is the same thing for these purposes.

English language does. Being affected by something and being able to make use of something are entirely different.

Agreed, which is why you can cast Catalyst on GSC units.

 Stux wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 Stux wrote:
The rule doesn't make a distinction, so getting hit by Psychic Scream or Catalyst is the same thing for these purposes.

English language does. Being affected by something and being able to make use of something are entirely different.

Agreed, which is why you can cast Catalyst on GSC units.

It would have no effect since you cannot make use of the 5+ FNP

Fragile wrote:

 Stux wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 Stux wrote:
The rule doesn't make a distinction, so getting hit by Psychic Scream or Catalyst is the same thing for these purposes.

English language does. Being affected by something and being able to make use of something are entirely different.

Agreed, which is why you can cast Catalyst on GSC units.

It would have no effect since you cannot make use of the 5+ FNP

How on earth would they not be able to make use of the 5+ Ignore Wounds?

 BaconCatBug wrote:


How on earth would they not be able to make use of the 5+ Ignore Wounds?

Because the rule says they cannot do what you just said.

Genestealer Cults units therefore cannot make use of any of the rules listed in this section

Fragile wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:


How on earth would they not be able to make use of the 5+ Ignore Wounds?

Because the rule says they cannot do what you just said.

Genestealer Cults units therefore cannot make use of any of the rules listed in this section

They aren't making use of the power itself, they're just affected by it.

Nope, they are using the 5+ to avoid wounds.

Fragile wrote:
Nope, they are using the 5+ to avoid wounds.

Right... Which is the affect of the power, not using the power.

 Stux wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Nope, they are using the 5+ to avoid wounds.

Right... Which is the effect of the power, not using the power.

FTFY.

First you all claim keywords (Tyranid) was the exception. Which had no bearing on this. Now your saying that making use of the power is not making use of the power.

GW clearly laid out the rules that make GSC and Tyranids separate and not be able to cherry pick powers and abilities between them. There is nothing ambigious about this rule. GSC units cannot use anything from the Tyranid Codex unless the rules in the GSC codex say it can.

Genestealer Cults units therefore cannot make use of any of the rules listed in this section (this includes the Detachment abilities, Stratagems, bio-artefacts, psychic powers, Warlord Traits and Tactical Objectives described in this section), and instead have their own rules.’

Sorry Fragile, you're totally in the wrong here. "make use" is not the same as "affected by". If GW want to prevent Catalyst working on GSC units they are going to have to issue a Special Snowflake FAQ or a proper errata.

Fragile wrote:

FTFY.

Real classy dude, real classy.

Looks pretty clear cut to me.
The breakdown basically says it works on tyranids (we all agree here) but GSC can't make use of them.

Casting onto a GSC unit with say, a hive tyrant isn't making use of it.
Making use would be using a GSC psyker to cast it (which they are forbidden to do)

It basically says it's all tyranid use only.
Makes no exclusions about using tyranids to cast them onto others.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Looks pretty clear cut to me.
The breakdown basically says it works on tyranids (we all agree here) but GSC can't make use of them.

Casting onto a GSC unit with say, a hive tyrant isn't making use of it.
Making use would be using a GSC psyker to cast it (which they are forbidden to do)

It basically says it's all tyranid use only.
Makes no exclusions about using tyranids to cast them onto others.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Sorry Fragile, you're totally in the wrong here. "make use" is not the same as "affected by". If GW want to prevent Catalyst working on GSC units they are going to have to issue a Special Snowflake FAQ or a proper errata.

No, I have the rule to back up my view. This falls into another of your "unique" interpretations that your trying to bypass RAW. You need a FAQ to make it work. Since GSC cannot cast Hive Mind Powers, the only way to "make use" of those powers would be to have a Tyranid psyker cast it on them. Which is denied by rule. Otherwise there would be no need to even include it in the rule.

Fragile wrote:

FTFY.

Please don't do that. It's rude.