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 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Now, to be fair, I thought a Land Raider is a Land raider is a land raider?

A Land raider by any other codex is just the same? That seems like a dumb thing.

BaconCatBug - I summon you and your growing list of Codex based ridiculousness!

The pinnacle of Astartes engineering will suddenly fail to be as good, if it is placed in a list of even more genetically superior creations.

The new Bolter rule requires the ADEPTUS ASTARTES or HERETIC ASTARTES keyword. No keyword = No Dakka.

Pleasestop wrote:
No it doesn't, since the argument isn't about heavy weapons, it's about a machine gun, and why women apparently can't fire it right compared to space Marines.

But they can fire it correctly. They are simply not quite as good at it as a genetically modified superhuman in equally powerful power armour. That has nothing to do with gender. All Sisters are S3 just like any other regular human being in the game.

More importantly - I can't find anyone claiming that "woman are too weak to wield bolters correctly". All I can see is the argument that unmodified, regular humans (as much as Sisters and Guardsmen are in any way "average") aren't able to wield bolters as good as genetically modified humans.

Pleasestop wrote:
No it doesn't, since the argument isn't about heavy weapons, it's about a machine gun, and why women apparently can't fire it right compared to space Marines.

Of course Space Marines "fire it right". They're transhuman demigods. Sisters, like Guardsmen, are not. The fact Space Marines are male isn't the reason. It's that they're simply stronger mathematically than both men AND women.

You mention Harker, who is an abnormally strong exception of a man, but in game rules (and we must use the abstract game rules here, because this is about those rules, not the lore), if he picked up a boltgun, he'd be worse than a Space Marine, just like the Sisters. However, he IS just as good with a Heavy Bolter, but so are Sisters and other female Guardsmen (see, Rocket Girl).
There is no sexism at play here. And I'm not just denying there's no sexism in general, there absolutely is. But this ain't it.

The argument given to generally justify it is "The women can't use this gun, they aren't strong enough" but then we see that apparently it's possible for several men to use a even heavier version of this gun, without the armor that Space Marines have. So, the argument that women can't use it because "the knockback is too strong" is a profuoundly sexist argument.

But women can use heavy weapons without power armour too - see Rocket Girl.
Also, several men? Sources? All I know is Harker, and Bragg. Those men are never shown to be the norm, only exceptions to the vast uncountable others who can't. Even so, that's only one more depiction than women being able to do exactly the same.

Again, I say again with Harker - in game, if you game him a boltGUN, he would also be just like a normal Catachan, and like a Sister of Battle - no sexism involved.

You can argue that rules wise sisters shouldn't have it, even though they are in a worse spot than Marines rulewise, but fluffy wise the arguemnts boil down to;
+Sister isn't strong enough (which is false)

Disagree. Sisters are sub-Astartes in strength - like Guardsmen. Show me a Guardsman who can fire a boltGUN like a Space Marine. You'll have a difficult time, because no Guardsman has the Adeptus Astartes keyword.

You're talking about Harker, who isn't firing a boltgun. He's firing a heavy bolter, which he can do with the same strength as Sisters AND Space Marines can. That's a "Heavy" weapon, which women like Rocket Girl can also fire without needing power armour.

+Sisters don't have the training

They don't have the same training as Astartes. Neither do Guardsmen.

+Sisters don't have the ocular implants

That they do.

Training is maybe the only one you can argue, since both Marines and sisters wear helmets and have targeting systems built into the helmets that they use, but if training was the case, then Custodes should have the rule and they don't, since they train hardr and longer than Marines, and are way stronger and are already better shots. So, don't try and justify it fluffwise becuase it doesn't work.

Custodes probably don't train in the same way. It's been noted plenty of times in various sources that the Custodes fight differently to Space Marines, with different doctrines, styles, and priorities of engagement.
It's noted at one point that the Custodes fight like lions, solo and without support for eachother, whereas the Marines are trained as a unit, to fight together. Why is it that Custodes also couldn't have a different doctrine/combat style when using bolters? Perhaps Custodes train more on their accuracy rather than weight of fire (represented by their higher BS), or maybe they train less on their bolters than Marines, but more on other aspects, like espionage, combat, guarding, stealth, or literally anything else.


At the end of the day, I'm not trying to justify it with fluff, but even if I was, I'd still snub the Sisters, as well as the Guard. They're not transhuman. If I was basing this on fluff, then Custodes would be the only change to how it is now.

I'm only pointing out that your argument of "it's sexist" is incorrect. It is not a sexist decision. A reductionary, short-sighted attempt to buff a faction, maybe, but not done with a trace of sexism, implicit or explicit.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Pleasestop wrote:
No it doesn't, since the argument isn't about heavy weapons, it's about a machine gun, and why women apparently can't fire it right compared to space Marines.

Of course Space Marines "fire it right". They're transhuman demigods. Sisters, like Guardsmen, are not. The fact Space Marines are male isn't the reason. It's that they're simply stronger mathematically than both men AND women.

You mention Harker, who is an abnormally strong exception of a man, but in game rules (and we must use the abstract game rules here, because this is about those rules, not the lore), if he picked up a boltgun, he'd be worse than a Space Marine, just like the Sisters. However, he IS just as good with a Heavy Bolter, but so are Sisters and other female Guardsmen (see, Rocket Girl).
There is no sexism at play here. And I'm not just denying there's no sexism in general, there absolutely is. But this ain't it.

The argument given to generally justify it is "The women can't use this gun, they aren't strong enough" but then we see that apparently it's possible for several men to use a even heavier version of this gun, without the armor that Space Marines have. So, the argument that women can't use it because "the knockback is too strong" is a profuoundly sexist argument.

But women can use heavy weapons without power armour too - see Rocket Girl.
Also, several men? Sources? All I know is Harker, and Bragg. Those men are never shown to be the norm, only exceptions to the vast uncountable others who can't. Even so, that's only one more depiction than women being able to do exactly the same.

Again, I say again with Harker - in game, if you game him a boltGUN, he would also be just like a normal Catachan, and like a Sister of Battle - no sexism involved.

You can argue that rules wise sisters shouldn't have it, even though they are in a worse spot than Marines rulewise, but fluffy wise the arguemnts boil down to;
+Sister isn't strong enough (which is false)

Disagree. Sisters are sub-Astartes in strength - like Guardsmen. Show me a Guardsman who can fire a boltGUN like a Space Marine. You'll have a difficult time, because no Guardsman has the Adeptus Astartes keyword.

You're talking about Harker, who isn't firing a boltgun. He's firing a heavy bolter, which he can do with the same strength as Sisters AND Space Marines can. That's a "Heavy" weapon, which women like Rocket Girl can also fire without needing power armour.

+Sisters don't have the training

They don't have the same training as Astartes. Neither do Guardsmen.

+Sisters don't have the ocular implants

That they do.

Training is maybe the only one you can argue, since both Marines and sisters wear helmets and have targeting systems built into the helmets that they use, but if training was the case, then Custodes should have the rule and they don't, since they train hardr and longer than Marines, and are way stronger and are already better shots. So, don't try and justify it fluffwise becuase it doesn't work.

Custodes probably don't train in the same way. It's been noted plenty of times in various sources that the Custodes fight differently to Space Marines, with different doctrines, styles, and priorities of engagement.
It's noted at one point that the Custodes fight like lions, solo and without support for eachother, whereas the Marines are trained as a unit, to fight together. Why is it that Custodes also couldn't have a different doctrine/combat style when using bolters? Perhaps Custodes train more on their accuracy rather than weight of fire (represented by their higher BS), or maybe they train less on their bolters than Marines, but more on other aspects, like espionage, combat, guarding, stealth, or literally anything else.


At the end of the day, I'm not trying to justify it with fluff, but even if I was, I'd still snub the Sisters, as well as the Guard. They're not transhuman. If I was basing this on fluff, then Custodes would be the only change to how it is now.

I'm only pointing out that your argument of "it's sexist" is incorrect. It is not a sexist decision. A reductionary, short-sighted attempt to buff a faction, maybe, but not done with a trace of sexism, implicit or explicit.

Small gripe - CCs and SGTs can actually fire a bolter with relatively the same accuracy. Now, if we go by number of shots, then yes, at 12".

I thought that the rule would help GK a lot. After some playing I noticed two things. First the only big winners are DW as far as the rule goes, and GK may have SB, but because they cost a lot more then normal marines, they actually get hurt a lot by the other marine bolter fire now.

Also somehow GW manged to make strikes worse.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Small gripe - CCs and SGTs can actually fire a bolter with relatively the same accuracy. Now, if we go by number of shots, then yes, at 12".

Sisters can all fire the same accuracy, but yes, I meant number of shots. Guardsmen are just as bad compared to Sisters at putting a lot of shots downrange to Space Marines.

Pleasestop wrote:

Training is maybe the only one you can argue

There you go. Your question has been answered. Now let's refer to your user name and stop flailing around in regards to balance changes.

If its the transhumanist element that lets marines get bolter discipline, why do Scouts have access to the rule? They're further behind on their implants are could arguable have less training than a SoB in a battle squad.

Note, I'm not trying to argue for who should or shouldn't get the rule. I just find the fluff arguement around the whole debate to be a lot of straw grasping on the space marine player's parts. Just say it's a balance change and move on.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pleasestop wrote:
Except they aren't? They are all men in 40k. But that's not thr point? The point is If anyone can fire a much heavier and more powerful version of a Bolter without wearing a shirt but Women can't fire a standard Bolter because "it's kickback is so strong it will rip the arm right out of their socket if they didn't have power armor" is a completely bogus argument, and reeks of sexism.

But Harker isn't firing a BOLTGUN. He's firing a Heavy Bolter, which he can fire just as well as a Sister, who can fire it just as well as a Space Marine.

Swap Harker's Heavy Bolter for a Boltgun, and he fires it just like any other Catachan.
Plus, doesn't Rocket Girl kinda defeat the argument that only men can carry heavy weapons solo without power armour?

I really don't wanna go into this quagmire with this person, but yup. Completely forgot about Rocket Girl. Plus every Escher heavy GW have made.

Also, the Catcachan Grenade Launcher model that is literally the aforementioned Vasquez.

The argument has nothing to do with heavy weapons, I've mentioned that a few times!

The argument has to do, specifically with Bolt class weapons.
As in, Ox and Harker both carry and use a heavier version of a Bolter, therefore the argument that a Bolter would rip the arms off a human, or the argument that the bolter can't be used without being modified, is false.

Therefore the argument that a sister should not be able to use a Bolter as well as a space marine becuase she is not strong enough is false, because it's been established that regular humans can use Heavier Bolters without suffering I'll effects, so the premise that a standard Bolter has too much knockback is false, especially since it's a variant gyrojet weapon, which, in real life, have little to no knockback.

Pleasestop wrote:

The argument has to do, specifically with Bolt class weapons.
As in, Ox and Harker both carry and use a heavier version of a Bolter, therefore the argument that a Bolter would rip the arms off a human, or the argument that the bolter can't be used without being modified, is false.

Therefore the argument that a sister should not be able to use a Bolter as well as a space marine becuase she is not strong enough is false, because it's been established that regular humans can use Heavier Bolters without suffering I'll effects, so the premise that a standard Bolter has too much knockback is false, especially since it's a variant gyrojet weapon, which, in real life, have little to no knockback.

Yeah, that argument is false. Sisters use the same calibre of bolters than marines. But this is a marine special rule, to signify their training with this most iconic of their weapons. Custodes don't get this rule either.

Luke_Prowler wrote:If its the transhumanist element that lets marines get bolter discipline, why do Scouts have access to the rule? They're further behind on their implants are could arguable have less training than a SoB in a battle squad.

Scouts are still transhuman compared to Sisters. Scouts pretty much have everything except the Black Carapace, and probably the new Cawl-approved implants. They *might* have less training, but I don't know by how much.

Note, I'm not trying to argue for who should or shouldn't get the rule. I just find the fluff arguement around the whole debate to be a lot of straw grasping on the space marine player's parts. Just say it's a balance change and move on.

Oh, absolutely. It's a gameplay rule, not a fluff-based decision. I wouldn't try and justify it with fluff, especially seeing as GW seem to be going quite far from the fluff accurately influencing the game (Liberator Autostubs as a weapon, not the person carrying them, being better than bolters).

I'm only pointing out that, of all of GW's sexist stuff, this isn't it.

Pleasestop wrote:The argument has nothing to do with heavy weapons, I've mentioned that a few times!

So why did you mention Harker, a guardsman carrying a heavy weapon?

The argument has to do, specifically with Bolt class weapons.
As in, Ox and Harker both carry and use a heavier version of a Bolter, therefore the argument that a Bolter would rip the arms off a human, or the argument that the bolter can't be used without being modified, is false.

Well, it's a *HEAVY* bolter, not a normal Boltgun that the rule affects, but sure. Also, Sisters can carry heavy bolters solo too. I'm not contesting that Guardsmen or Sisters can fire bolters, or even heavy weapons. They absolutely can. Can they do it as well as Space Marines?
In the case of only BOLTGUNS and Storm Bolters, no - they cannot.

There could be reasons for why humans could fire a heavy bolter to the same level as a Space Marine, but not a normal bolter. Perhaps it's in the grip of the weapon, like how some pistols can be harder to control than some rifles, because pistols can't be held the same way as a rifle. At the end of the day, this is irrelevant.

Therefore the argument that a sister should not be able to use a Bolter as well as a space marine becuase she is not strong enough is false, because it's been established that regular humans can use Heavier Bolters without suffering I'll effects, so the premise that a standard Bolter has too much knockback is false,

Nope, a Sister could perfectly well not be able to use a bolter as well as a Space Marine. Sisters can use HEAVY bolters just as well, as can some select guardsmen, but please, show me a guardsman firing a BOLTGUN (not a Heavy Bolter, a regular bolter) to the same level as a Space Marine.
It's a gameplay abstraction. It's not based on anything real, or tangible. It's just GW wanting to buff Space Marines, making their bolters better than non-transhuman warriors (which, lets be fair, they should be). However, I'd maintain that ALL Space Marine bolt weapons, be that Heavy bolt weapons, Assault bolt weapons, Pistol bolt weapons, ANYTHING bolt-y, should be better - and so should it be for Custodes.

Sisters, even with their armour are not as capable as Marines. It's not to say they can't use bolters at all, nor is it that they can't carry heavier bolt weapons, but they do not have the same proficiency that Marines do - and neither do any Guardsmen. It's not a gender thing. It's a "you're not a transhuman demigod" thing.

especially since it's a variant gyrojet weapon, which, in real life, have little to no knockback.

40k bolters, in literally all lore, have been shown to have recoil. Real life isn't 40k.

Don't bolters have standard bullet-firing explosion properties, and then the gyrojet tech kicks in after the bolt leaves the barrel of the gun?
I could have sworn I heard that somewhere.

 Apple Peel wrote:
Don't bolters have standard bullet-firing explosion properties, and then the gyrojet tech kicks in after the bolt leaves the barrel of the gun?
I could have sworn I heard that somewhere.

Yes hence the ejection ports on tge weapons being hilariously out of size.
WD did an A3 schematic of a stormbolter vack in 3rd edition when the "new" 40mm terminators were released.


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 Crimson wrote:

Pleasestop wrote:

The argument has to do, specifically with Bolt class weapons.
As in, Ox and Harker both carry and use a heavier version of a Bolter, therefore the argument that a Bolter would rip the arms off a human, or the argument that the bolter can't be used without being modified, is false.

Therefore the argument that a sister should not be able to use a Bolter as well as a space marine becuase she is not strong enough is false, because it's been established that regular humans can use Heavier Bolters without suffering I'll effects, so the premise that a standard Bolter has too much knockback is false, especially since it's a variant gyrojet weapon, which, in real life, have little to no knockback.

Yeah, that argument is false. Sisters use the same calibre of bolters than marines. But this is a marine special rule, to signify their training with this most iconic of their weapons. Custodes don't get this rule either.

You could potentially have the same calibre of projectile but with a different propellant charge like some modern firearms do. While they use the same bullet the round is different or the number of grains etc are higher or lower to achieve a different muzzle velocity and recoil impulse.

Oh no, it's groundhog day

So, then my honest question:

Do Vulcan Mega Bolters use the same tech? I feel like Titan guns use better tech...