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Asmodios wrote: At the end of the day the Imperium does what it has to do to secure the survival of the human race. Sometimes you have to put a population to death to make sure that space demons don't kill an entire sector. Sometimes you have to force men and women to do lives of hard slave labor to have the tools you need to fight these threats. It's grimdark and over the top the way it should be but if you are a human then the Imperium is definitely the good guys
If the Imperium is justified in its cruelty then all you've got is expensive fascist propaganda because that's exactly how fascists think.
"Hmm, this cultist knows where their leader is hiding but won't give us the information, should be torture him?"
"No, that'd be rude."
"You're right, sorry."
EDIT: when did the subject change to '40k nazis and you love them'
"No we don't torture him becuase people will say whatever they think we want to hear to make the pain stop. Once we start hurting people we can't trust what they say any more."
No serious question and i 'd like a full explanation instead of just hurr durr IOM fascisct.
BECAUSE to anyone that knows a bit about history the IOM is closer to a 30 years war HRE hybrided with the PLC but in space.
It isn't. It has some elements that are shared with fascism, but it is a feudal state with an authoritarian, ultraconservative, theocratic oligarchy at the core.
I'd say it is closer to medieval France than the HRE though- both were feudal, but France was able to exert greater control over its vassals if it had to, which is how the Imperium is able to operate due to their near monopoly on interstellar travel. The HRE was barely an empire at all for much of its history (apart from the very beginning before and shortly after France split off), with only the Hapsburg territories functioning as a coherent state (basically Austria).
ChargerIIC wrote: If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
No serious question and i 'd like a full explanation instead of just hurr durr IOM fascisct.
BECAUSE to anyone that knows a bit about history the IOM is closer to a 30 years war HRE hybrided with the PLC but in space.
It isn't. It has some elements that are shared with fascism, but it is a feudal state with an authoritarian, ultraconservative, theocratic oligarchy at the core.
I'd say it is closer to medieval France than the HRE though- both were feudal, but France was able to exert greater control over its vassals if it had to, which is how the Imperium is able to operate due to their near monopoly on interstellar travel. The HRE was barely an empire at all for much of its history (apart from the very beginning before and shortly after France split off), with only the Hapsburg territories functioning as a coherent state (basically Austria).
That's why i said pre 30 years war, were the emperor had more influence, that said i can see france also as a inspiration.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
No serious question and i 'd like a full explanation instead of just hurr durr IOM fascisct.
BECAUSE to anyone that knows a bit about history the IOM is closer to a 30 years war HRE hybrided with the PLC but in space.
It isn't. It has some elements that are shared with fascism, but it is a feudal state with an authoritarian, ultraconservative, theocratic oligarchy at the core.
I'd say it is closer to medieval France than the HRE though- both were feudal, but France was able to exert greater control over its vassals if it had to, which is how the Imperium is able to operate due to their near monopoly on interstellar travel. The HRE was barely an empire at all for much of its history (apart from the very beginning before and shortly after France split off), with only the Hapsburg territories functioning as a coherent state (basically Austria).
That's why i said pre 30 years war, were the emperor had more influence, that said i can see france also as a inspiration.
I think you'd have to go back to Frederick II to get the HRE as an actual empire. I think medieval France works much better because it was still very much a feudal state, but the monarch had enough centralised power that they could focus on any one of their vassals and crush them if they were being rebellious (obvious exceptions being the several centuries of intermittent war against those dang Dukes of Normandy, and the Duchy of Burgundy at its height).
ChargerIIC wrote: If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
No serious question and i 'd like a full explanation instead of just hurr durr IOM fascisct.
BECAUSE to anyone that knows a bit about history the IOM is closer to a 30 years war HRE hybrided with the PLC but in space.
Facism is a far easier reference point for most people than specifically narrowing down a period based on of a pair of acronyms I don't know off hand.
Live for the state, oh no anyone unlike you should be sent to the killing floor, obey your superiors without question, and an endless propaganda machine.
I'm sure there's plenty of historical parallels, but the average person is only going to know so many of them and may as well take the easy one.
No serious question and i 'd like a full explanation instead of just hurr durr IOM fascisct.
BECAUSE to anyone that knows a bit about history the IOM is closer to a 30 years war HRE hybrided with the PLC but in space.
Facism is a far easier reference point for most people than specifically narrowing down a period based on of a pair of acronyms I don't know off hand.
Live for the state, oh no anyone unlike you should be sent to the killing floor, obey your superiors without question, and an endless propaganda machine.
I'm sure there's plenty of historical parallels, but the average person is only going to know so many of them and may as well take the easy one.
But fascism is wrong if looking at anything but the vaguest parameters. You are far better off using the catch-all term authoritarianism if that is your intention. Most people understand that term too. Using fascism as a catch-all for authoritarianism is lazy, it would be like using anarchism as a catch-all for all extreme libertarian concepts.
HRE is Holy Roman Empire. I don't actually know PLC.
ChargerIIC wrote: If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
No serious question and i 'd like a full explanation instead of just hurr durr IOM fascisct.
BECAUSE to anyone that knows a bit about history the IOM is closer to a 30 years war HRE hybrided with the PLC but in space.
Facism is a far easier reference point for most people than specifically narrowing down a period based on of a pair of acronyms I don't know off hand.
Live for the state, oh no anyone unlike you should be sent to the killing floor, obey your superiors without question, and an endless propaganda machine.
I'm sure there's plenty of historical parallels, but the average person is only going to know so many of them and may as well take the easy one.
But fascism is wrong if looking at anything but the vaguest parameters. You are far better off using the catch-all term authoritarianism if that is your intention. Most people understand that term too. Using fascism as a catch-all for authoritarianism is lazy, it would be like using anarchism as a catch-all for all extreme libertarian concepts.
HRE is Holy Roman Empire. I don't actually know PLC.
It's because most people think they know what Fascism is because CNN told them so, despite CNNs definition of Fascism being the equivalent of me calling a Bacon Sarnie a Vegan Dish, so they just regurgitate what their corporate overlords tell them to.
No serious question and i 'd like a full explanation instead of just hurr durr IOM fascisct.
BECAUSE to anyone that knows a bit about history the IOM is closer to a 30 years war HRE hybrided with the PLC but in space.
Facism is a far easier reference point for most people than specifically narrowing down a period based on of a pair of acronyms I don't know off hand.
Live for the state, oh no anyone unlike you should be sent to the killing floor, obey your superiors without question, and an endless propaganda machine.
I'm sure there's plenty of historical parallels, but the average person is only going to know so many of them and may as well take the easy one.
But fascism is wrong if looking at anything but the vaguest parameters. You are far better off using the catch-all term authoritarianism if that is your intention. Most people understand that term too. Using fascism as a catch-all for authoritarianism is lazy, it would be like using anarchism as a catch-all for all extreme libertarian concepts.
HRE is Holy Roman Empire. I don't actually know PLC.
It's because most people think they know what Fascism is because CNN told them so, despite CNNs definition of Fascism being the equivalent of me calling a Bacon Sarnie a Vegan Dish, so they just regurgitate what their corporate overlords tell them to.
PLC is Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth
Ah, gotcha! Should've known that one... Hmm, I can see strong elements of that state in the Imperium.
I wouldn't say it is as far off as that, more that they tell everyone a cheese and lettuce sandwich is the only vegan dish. Its actually vegetarian, and there are myriad other options that never get mentioned, but closer than a bacon butty. Still, that is just a disagreement in degree
ChargerIIC wrote: If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
No serious question and i 'd like a full explanation instead of just hurr durr IOM fascisct.
BECAUSE to anyone that knows a bit about history the IOM is closer to a 30 years war HRE hybrided with the PLC but in space.
It isn't. It has some elements that are shared with fascism, but it is a feudal state with an authoritarian, ultraconservative, theocratic oligarchy at the core.
I'd say it is closer to medieval France than the HRE though- both were feudal, but France was able to exert greater control over its vassals if it had to, which is how the Imperium is able to operate due to their near monopoly on interstellar travel. The HRE was barely an empire at all for much of its history (apart from the very beginning before and shortly after France split off), with only the Hapsburg territories functioning as a coherent state (basically Austria).
That's why i said pre 30 years war, were the emperor had more influence, that said i can see france also as a inspiration.
I think you'd have to go back to Frederick II to get the HRE as an actual empire. I think medieval France works much better because it was still very much a feudal state, but the monarch had enough centralised power that they could focus on any one of their vassals and crush them if they were being rebellious (obvious exceptions being the several centuries of intermittent war against those dang Dukes of Normandy, and the Duchy of Burgundy at its height).
Ah yes the burgundians, talk about failing Hard
Bei grandson das gut, bei murten der Mut, bei nancy das Blut.
Well overall i still think the HRE, especially the institution of the regents that voted for the emperor have more in common with the empire and it's general government after the "death" of the emperor then france, Precisely because the french kings were not dependant on the support as much as gaulliman.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
You do know, that what ultimately sunk PLC/I RP into more than a hundred years of non-existence was Liberum Veto that made parliamentary congregations unable to decide on anything and that it was increasingly disfunctional, multicultural noble democracy (since XV century) with electable king (since XVI century), with increasingly limited power of the king, torn apart, between other things, because of handing out noble privileges to different interest/ethnic groups, right? And that it had the largest Jewish diaspora in conteporary Europe, with Jews expelled from other states migrating there, significant Tatar minority and four religious orders (roman catholic, orthodox, jewish and muslim) coexisting in relative peace, sometimes within single cities? How exactly that is similar to IoM and how exactly one goes in one sentence from fascism to PLC/I RP?
nou wrote: You do know, that what ultimately sunk PLC/I RP into more than a hundred years of non-existence was Liberum Veto that made parliamentary congregations unable to decide on anything and that it was increasingly disfunctional, multicultural noble democracy (since XV century) with electable king (since XVI century), with increasingly limited power of the king, torn apart, between other things, because of handing out noble privileges to different interest/ethnic groups, right? And that it had the largest Jewish diaspora in conteporary Europe, with Jews expelled from other states migrating there, significant Tatar minority and four religious orders (roman catholic, orthodox, jewish and muslim) coexisting in relative peace, sometimes within single cities? How exactly that is similar to IoM and how exactly one goes in one sentence from fascism to PLC/I RP?
Seriously, how? I am speechless...
Because the Imperium is like neither, but contains elements of both.
parliamentary congregations unable to decide on anything and that it was increasingly disfunctional, multicultural noble democracy
This sounds an awful lot like the Senatorum Imperialis, which has a huge amount of organisational inertia and competing factions.
The High Lords of Terra essentially ignore the Senatorum as much as they can to actually get things done.
Automatically Appended Next Post: No one is saying the PLC was fascist, just that the IoM shares some structural elements.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/07 12:56:48
ChargerIIC wrote: If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
This sounds an awful lot like the Senatorum Imperialis, which has a huge amount of organisational inertia and competing factions.
The High Lords of Terra essentially ignore the Senatorum as much as they can to actually get things done.
Automatically Appended Next Post: No one is saying the PLC was fascist, just that the IoM shares some structural elements.
The thing is - polish parliment couldn't really be ignored, that's why Constitution of may 3rd tried to revoke nobility status for landless nobles. And PLC/I RP did not had anything resembling Emperor's Iron Grip on IoM or any fanatical religious or monarchic devotion - that is exactly why IRP ended in partitions and dissapeared from maps.
IoM is based on feudal model that was common for entire medieval europe, that is an undeniable fact. But if you know anything more about PLC/I RP than some basic pop references, then there are really very few and none specific commonalities between them and many, many contradictions, some listed above but that is really not an exhaustive list.
One more thing to note - there are norse marines, there are roman marines, there are celt marines, sparta marines and fething gengis khan mongol marines, but none polish husars marines. If anyone in GW knew gak about polish history so that they modeled anything based on it, they most certainly would include a chapter modeled after the most efficient and scary cavalry of contemporary europe. Here you have a fan attempt at filling this gap: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/733433.page. Even rouge traders are modeled after italian tropes from city-states era and not on polish sarmat nobles of equaling influence in contemporary europe.
I really, really don't think that there is anything consciously drawn from polish history in Warhammer of any flavour and any similarities are purely coincidential and from polish perspective far-fetched at most. The most I could agree vaguely resembles GW produced narratives is Chmielnicki uprising era, but again, that is nothing really all that different from War of the Roses or any other civil wars in medieval Europe. And Battle of Vienna and Sobieski figure are sufficiently epic and "culture clash" for the setting.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And to be constructive for a change: what I personally think IoM is modeled upon is late Pax Britannica British Empire with Terry Gilliam's "Brazil" levels of beurocracy added on top, Julius Ceasar wannabe instead of Victoria/Edward/George, with all sorts of ancient and medieval tropes sprinkled all over the place to support all those rainbow marines flavors and planetary variety of galaxy spanning empire.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/03/07 14:05:04
I think the problem is that in trying to boil the Imperium down to any single ideology or historical period is problematic because it encompasses elements of so many. That said, it's definitely not not Fascist in a lot of aspects, as Salt Potato points out, but it is also many other things, some of which probably directly contradict any common definition of Fascism. Descriptions of the Imperium borrow from anything and everything it's authors and creators can find, so long as those things contribute to its dystopian image. Futuristic Dystopia is really the only thing about the Imperium that's solidly consistent.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/03/08 04:35:46
Haighus wrote: I think you missed the bit where I said it still isn't enough to justify it. That even random nuke people being born everywhere isn't enough to justify it. The idea is to paint "functional, justified" authoritarianism as absurd...
Plenty of people think that the Imperium is justified, though. You don't, sure, but a lot do. That there have always been blurbs about how to be a man in such an age is to live under the most tyrannical regime imaginable is also unfortunately outweighed by the amount of fiction casting Imperial characters in heroic roles and hardly ever offering an alternative. Chaos is evil and must be suppressed, orks are violent and can't be coexisted with etc. Most of the 40K setting has been written in such a way that the Imperium couldn't be any other way because tolerance and curiosity get you killed.
I don't think that parodying fascism in this way is possible so the original aim was imho misguided but there really isn't a lot you'd have to change.
No serious question and i 'd like a full explanation instead of just hurr durr IOM fascisct.
BECAUSE to anyone that knows a bit about history the IOM is closer to a 30 years war HRE hybrided with the PLC but in space.
The basic conceit of peace being impossible because people are too different and the only thing you can do is shoot the other guy before he shoots you is a fundamentally fascistic world view. It's not that the Imperium's political and logistical workings are perfectly 100% fascist (to the extent that such a thing is possible anyway), it's that orks, chaos and genestealers etc all draw upon the exact same concepts as fascist writings on whatever they denote as the Other do. Orks are the barbarian hordes who are unthinking and inhuman in their aggression and can't be reasoned with, chaos is political/ideological dissidents and genestealers are miscegenation. Of course, alien supersoldiers breaking down and running amok and xenomorph rape monsters doing what they do aren't necessarily proof that whatever work includes them leans towards fascism but if the Imperium is shown as correct in committing monstrous acts to preserve the greater mass of humanity against these things then you're at a bit more than a 90 degree angle. "It's terrible but justified" is what the Nazis thought about the Holocaust, for example.
Rosebuddy wrote: The basic conceit of peace being impossible because people are too different and the only thing you can do is shoot the other guy before he shoots you is a fundamentally fascistic world view. It's not that the Imperium's political and logistical workings are perfectly 100% fascist (to the extent that such a thing is possible anyway), it's that orks, chaos and genestealers etc all draw upon the exact same concepts as fascist writings on whatever they denote as the Other do. Orks are the barbarian hordes who are unthinking and inhuman in their aggression and can't be reasoned with, chaos is political/ideological dissidents and genestealers are miscegenation. Of course, alien supersoldiers breaking down and running amok and xenomorph rape monsters doing what they do aren't necessarily proof that whatever work includes them leans towards fascism but if the Imperium is shown as correct in committing monstrous acts to preserve the greater mass of humanity against these things then you're at a bit more than a 90 degree angle. "It's terrible but justified" is what the Nazis thought about the Holocaust, for example.
The difference here is that the Imperium is 1000% correct.
Yeah the Imperium is not bad for killing Orks or Chaos. They are bad because they threat their own subjets like filth and barely something more than slaves, and are oblivious to any other alternative of doing things, that in most cases are better all around, with less cost in human lives.
But thats the Imperium.A total mess from top to bottom. And yeah, I know, not all imperial plantes are under strict control, many don't ever know they are part of the Imperium and could be even similar to our world. But thats not what the universe is about.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/10 19:47:27
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
That's why i said pre 30 years war, were the emperor had more influence, that said i can see france also as a inspiration.
I think you'd have to go back to Frederick II to get the HRE as an actual empire. I think medieval France works much better because it was still very much a feudal state, but the monarch had enough centralised power that they could focus on any one of their vassals and crush them if they were being rebellious (obvious exceptions being the several centuries of intermittent war against those dang Dukes of Normandy, and the Duchy of Burgundy at its height).
Wasn't France really a thing till the defeat of the Fronda and the rise of absolutism?
I think that the eastern roman empire under Dioclecian or Constantin would fit much better. Same paralising type of burocracy too.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
The basic conceit of peace being impossible because people are too different and the only thing you can do is shoot the other guy before he shoots you is a fundamentally fascistic world view. It's not that the Imperium's political and logistical workings are perfectly 100% fascist (to the extent that such a thing is possible anyway), it's that orks, chaos and genestealers etc all draw upon the exact same concepts as fascist writings on whatever they denote as the Other do. Orks are the barbarian hordes who are unthinking and inhuman in their aggression and can't be reasoned with, chaos is political/ideological dissidents and genestealers are miscegenation. Of course, alien supersoldiers breaking down and running amok and xenomorph rape monsters doing what they do aren't necessarily proof that whatever work includes them leans towards fascism but if the Imperium is shown as correct in committing monstrous acts to preserve the greater mass of humanity against these things then you're at a bit more than a 90 degree angle. "It's terrible but justified" is what the Nazis thought about the Holocaust, for example.
Ok first Nazi = fascisct?
There are fundamental diffrent ideological goals within both ideologies.
Where does the IoM state that peace is impossible? It is imperialistic and genocidal but fascisct is another quality, or would you declare any empire of this Planet as fascisct?
Hard times require hard meassures is about the most used excuse aswell as suffer now for an utopia in the future and inherent in most ideological radical streams and can be found aswell in communism.
Also Rogue traders exist, alliances with the knife ears happened, shoot on sight torwards Tau is also 50% of the time not happening.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/03/10 23:05:32
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Haighus wrote: I think you missed the bit where I said it still isn't enough to justify it. That even random nuke people being born everywhere isn't enough to justify it. The idea is to paint "functional, justified" authoritarianism as absurd...
Plenty of people think that the Imperium is justified, though. You don't, sure, but a lot do. That there have always been blurbs about how to be a man in such an age is to live under the most tyrannical regime imaginable is also unfortunately outweighed by the amount of fiction casting Imperial characters in heroic roles and hardly ever offering an alternative. Chaos is evil and must be suppressed, orks are violent and can't be coexisted with etc. Most of the 40K setting has been written in such a way that the Imperium couldn't be any other way because tolerance and curiosity get you killed.
I don't think that parodying fascism in this way is possible so the original aim was imho misguided but there really isn't a lot you'd have to change.
No serious question and i 'd like a full explanation instead of just hurr durr IOM fascisct.
BECAUSE to anyone that knows a bit about history the IOM is closer to a 30 years war HRE hybrided with the PLC but in space.
The basic conceit of peace being impossible because people are too different and the only thing you can do is shoot the other guy before he shoots you is a fundamentally fascistic world view. It's not that the Imperium's political and logistical workings are perfectly 100% fascist (to the extent that such a thing is possible anyway), it's that orks, chaos and genestealers etc all draw upon the exact same concepts as fascist writings on whatever they denote as the Other do. Orks are the barbarian hordes who are unthinking and inhuman in their aggression and can't be reasoned with, chaos is political/ideological dissidents and genestealers are miscegenation. Of course, alien supersoldiers breaking down and running amok and xenomorph rape monsters doing what they do aren't necessarily proof that whatever work includes them leans towards fascism but if the Imperium is shown as correct in committing monstrous acts to preserve the greater mass of humanity against these things then you're at a bit more than a 90 degree angle. "It's terrible but justified" is what the Nazis thought about the Holocaust, for example.
Interesting point. Though their means are often reflective of each other, are the ends of the Imperium and say the Nazi party the same? On the one hand, the Nazis' actions served to help them prosper, whereas the Imperium's actions serve to help them survive. Whereas the Nazi's blamed Germany's woes on scapegoats in order to justify attrocities in order to attain their property and wealth, as Bacon points out, those that the Imperium blames its woes upon are not scapegoats, but are a very real and genuine threat to our species survival.
