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I'd love to see Necrons, Tau, or Orks get 1 core and 5 separate Dynasty/Sept/Kulture books, similar to Space Marines gamine a corebook, and SW/DW/DA/BA/GK. SpaceMarines should be one faction book, with each of those being a sub faction, just like the rest of us. This applies to AM as well, unless everyone is pushing for each main Regiment to get their own Codex.

Either give each faction the same diversity of books, like SM, or reign them back to one book.

I sure as hell don't want non-ultramarine space marine armies to go the same way as non-cadian guard have. I'd rather just have the non-cadians back.

Amen. Some of those old guard models were awesome. Chances are I'd be playing IG if the Valhallan line or Death Korps lines of models were still around.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blndmage wrote:
I'd love to see Necrons, Tau, or Orks get 1 core and 5 separate Dynasty/Sept/Kulture books, similar to Space Marines gamine a corebook, and SW/DW/DA/BA/GK. SpaceMarines should be one faction book, with each of those being a sub faction, just like the rest of us. This applies to AM as well, unless everyone is pushing for each main Regiment to get their own Codex.

Either give each faction the same diversity of books, like SM, or reign them back to one book.

We should demand more options for Xenos. A Tau sub-faction would be awesome. We shouldnt trash entire armies like Black templar or old IG regiments were, just because Xenos lacks options. The variety of models and flavours available for power armour factions should be what we strive for in general for all factions, but for GW to do that, we need to vote with our wallets and show them that Xenos is just as popular as everything else. Unless sales numbers climb though, Xenos will continue to remain mono and generic for each race.

I'd love to see Orks have Freebootaz and Speed Freaks and the like as separate codex-sized books.

 Mr Morden wrote:

You cut down on the bloat by not having various pretend unique units.

OK, so which is it. You keep your lore and your rules, or is it nobody gets unique units and everything is Primaris-generic? I like the special rules and sacrifices. I know I don't get excellent assault troops, but that's OK. If I want those I'll build a different chapter.

It's a dumb concept, you just remove everything and say this is Space Marines, period. Could you try any harder to make Space Marines more boring than they currently are?

We could just change the whole thing...Space Marines as one singular faction, no BA, SW, DW or GK. Guard. Nids (but not GSC, not needed). Orks. Eldar (but not Harlies or DE). Chaos as Daemons only (and no separate Gods), don;t need more marines. Also drop Necrons and Tau....2 Xenos races is enough. And get rid of knights too....don't need them.
is that the kind of generic vanilla you're looking for? Does that cut down on your bloat?

The tragedy here is, Dawn of War 2's campaign made me rethink my opinion on Marines enough to consider playing them, and I started the BA army with the start of this edition. If they took Morden's advice, I'd sell the BA army off and go back to playing Orks and Sisters, cause that would take everything interesting out of Marines and turn them in to the same boring blandness that I used to think they were.

 Melissia wrote:
The tragedy here is, Dawn of War 2's campaign made me rethink my opinion on Marines enough to consider playing them, and I started the BA army with the start of this edition. If they took Morden's advice, I'd sell the BA army off and go back to playing Orks and Sisters, cause that would take everything interesting out of Marines and turn them in to the same boring blandness that I used to think they were.

And thats the point. People just needs to accept that marines sell. They sell enough to warrant all of that variety. And it is not like other factions don't receive things. Before all of this Primaris waves with my Dark Angels I received new stuff at the same rate than many other factions. I cared as much about the new Space Wolves or Deathwatch stuff as an Ork or a Necron player.

Heck with my Tau I received more things in 6th and 7th than with my Dark Angels.

I never trust anybody that instead of asking for more for them, ask for less to others. Thats a very petty way of looking at things. Is like people that complains that other jobs have too many privileges instead of asking for better labour rights for themselves.

I just find the whole thing hilarious. Start with a question..."would you....", and when the answer doesn't match their ideal "you're an entitled snowflake!!". Classic.

The development and maintenance of separate codexes for Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Space Wolves is well established. They have plenty of lore. Enough people find the distinct chapters/rules/models compelling to warrant their continuance. The investment in distinct models is also somewhat modest. They all play a little differently, which means variety. How is this a bad thing?

What even prompted this thread?

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
The development and maintenance of separate codexes for Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Space Wolves is well established. They have plenty of lore. Enough people find the distinct chapters/rules/models compelling to warrant their continuance. The investment in distinct models is also somewhat modest. They all play a little differently, which means variety. How is this a bad thing?

What even prompted this thread?

I'd argue that they aren't different enough to warrant their own codex, when you've got similar deviations in, say, Orks.

Why do Marines get the biggest codex, three codex deviations (DA, BA, and SW), and two pseudo Marine dexes (GK and DW) whereas, say, Orks only get one codex that's much smaller than the Marine's one? or Guard?

It's especially egregious considering that there's approximately one million Marines in 40k. Even if that's off by a factor of moire than ten, meaning there's dozens of millions of Marines, they're still LUDICROUSLY outnumbered by Orks or Guardsmen.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
The development and maintenance of separate codexes for Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Space Wolves is well established. They have plenty of lore. Enough people find the distinct chapters/rules/models compelling to warrant their continuance. The investment in distinct models is also somewhat modest. They all play a little differently, which means variety. How is this a bad thing?

What even prompted this thread?

Currently in the marine codex black templars have crusader squads. It's unique for them, no other chapter can take them. If blood angels were enrolled into the codex, they could keep death company as a similar unique unit. Honour guard with jp could just be universal unit. Special characters remain. Baal predator possibly unique or universal. Let the BA keep their CA, a relique or two and there we go. Let everyone take hand flamers and other little wargear you have because that is not flavour, that is just weird that only BA can take them. You lost nothing, standard marine players gain more freedom of choice and we save ourself one book.

I have had a Space Wolves army since 1992, shortly before they got the first "special snowflake" army list (a couple of years, and a whole edition, before anyone else ). I still think it's not really necessary. I'd do one single Codex: Adeptus Astartes, or at most split it like the Horus heresy books - Codex: Adeptus Astartes and Codex Adaptus Astartes: Space Marine Chapters.

The main army list would just be all the standard Space Marine units - Tactical Marines, intercessors, Scouts, terminators, Captains, Librarians, etc. The Chapter-specific bits would be the Chapter tactics, Chapter-specific Relics, Stratagems, special rules, Warlord Traits, Psychic powers, that sort of thing. not too much; two or three per Chapter. Also, it would have the changes required from the main army list. Again, not too much - a page of required rules tweaks and a new datasheet or two.

For example, Space Wolves:
Assault Squads can have up to 15 models, Devastator squads only five. Tactical Squads may not take a heavy weapon, but can have a second special weapon instead. All models may be equipped with close combat weapons and up to two may have a power sword, axe, fist and/or plasma pistol.
All squad sergeants may be equipped with Terminator armour (alternatively, include Wolf Guard battle Leader as a datasheet along with Thunderwolf Cavalry)

Dark Angels:
Don't really need much - additional wargear options for Deathwing terminators, perhaps extra rules for Bike and Land Speeder units to represent Ravenwing and datasheets for their planes and fancy Land Speeder.

Blood Angels:
Death company datasheet, and allow Command Squads and Honour Guard to take jump packs.

Black Templars:
Either include a new datasheet for the mixed squad of Tactical marines and Scouts or come up with a rule to let you take a Tactical Squad, a Scout Squad and combine the two

Ultramarines:
Tyrannic War veterans - either a new datasheet or a tweak to the Sternguard and Vanguard veteran squads.

and likewise for any other Chapters that might warrant rules of their own.

Deathwatch don't need a whole Codex - just say that a Deathwatch Kill Team is made up of three to ten Space marines chosen from any non-Character Infantry datasheet, each of which can be from any Chapter. Include some special wargear options and job's a good 'un. Only Grey Knights need their own full army list.

 JNAProductions wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
The development and maintenance of separate codexes for Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Space Wolves is well established. They have plenty of lore. Enough people find the distinct chapters/rules/models compelling to warrant their continuance. The investment in distinct models is also somewhat modest. They all play a little differently, which means variety. How is this a bad thing?

What even prompted this thread?

I'd argue that they aren't different enough to warrant their own codex, when you've got similar deviations in, say, Orks.

Why do Marines get the biggest codex, three codex deviations (DA, BA, and SW), and two pseudo Marine dexes (GK and DW) whereas, say, Orks only get one codex that's much smaller than the Marine's one? or Guard?

It's especially egregious considering that there's approximately one million Marines in 40k. Even if that's off by a factor of moire than ten, meaning there's dozens of millions of Marines, they're still LUDICROUSLY outnumbered by Orks or Guardsmen.

Yeah it's wild, almost like someone looked at the demand for space marine related products, said "gak dawg we could almost make an entire game out of just space marines and people would still buy it!"

With Primaris Land Speeders and Bikes, yes. I would prefer jet bikes like Vertus Praetors instead normal bikes. Maybe some Primaris jump pack close combat unit and AT tanks?

Primaris are good idea but not so good implementation. Suppressors would be better without grav chutes. New eliminators are good looking.

the_scotsman wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
The development and maintenance of separate codexes for Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Space Wolves is well established. They have plenty of lore. Enough people find the distinct chapters/rules/models compelling to warrant their continuance. The investment in distinct models is also somewhat modest. They all play a little differently, which means variety. How is this a bad thing?

What even prompted this thread?

I'd argue that they aren't different enough to warrant their own codex, when you've got similar deviations in, say, Orks.

Why do Marines get the biggest codex, three codex deviations (DA, BA, and SW), and two pseudo Marine dexes (GK and DW) whereas, say, Orks only get one codex that's much smaller than the Marine's one? or Guard?

It's especially egregious considering that there's approximately one million Marines in 40k. Even if that's off by a factor of moire than ten, meaning there's dozens of millions of Marines, they're still LUDICROUSLY outnumbered by Orks or Guardsmen.

Yeah it's wild, almost like someone looked at the demand for space marine related products, said "gak dawg we could almost make an entire game out of just space marines and people would still buy it!"

Except thats not what happened. Other stuff sells - IF you make and market it.

What we have had for decades is:

We (GW) are a Grocery that sells a variety of fruit except actually we sell 20 different kinds of Apples, only lalk about apples and market that we sell apples - yeah we sell bananas, pears and other fruit but only grudgingly and if we have to - certinaly don't market it. Wierdly enough we sell mostly..........apples - who would have thought it.

Now they are selling new pears and cherries and all sorts of things but still pushing apples and still those who like Apples demand that Apples are the most improtant fruit adn only their fruit matters.

OK, so which is it. You keep your lore and your rules, or is it nobody gets unique units and everything is Primaris-generic? I like the special rules and sacrifices. I know I don't get excellent assault troops, but that's OK. If I want those I'll build a different chapter.

It's a dumb concept, you just remove everything and say this is Space Marines, period. Could you try any harder to make Space Marines more boring than they currently are?

We could just change the whole thing...Space Marines as one singular faction, no BA, SW, DW or GK. Guard. Nids (but not GSC, not needed). Orks. Eldar (but not Harlies or DE). Chaos as Daemons only (and no separate Gods), don;t need more marines. Also drop Necrons and Tau....2 Xenos races is enough. And get rid of knights too....don't need them.
is that the kind of generic vanilla you're looking for? Does that cut down on your bloat?

Ah the extreme strawman argument - "sigh" Try harder.

If you are conversant with background of the myriad of Chapters you will know that most so called unique units are NOT and all this pretend variety thats confimed to a few chapters happens for no GOOD reason

read this excellent post form Andrew and tell me what YOU are missing from your army if this was implemented? The Fluuf is all there - all the units are there - what exactly are you not getting that you need for your special army?

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

Spoiler:

I have had a Space Wolves army since 1992, shortly before they got the first "special snowflake" army list (a couple of years, and a whole edition, before anyone else ). I still think it's not really necessary. I'd do one single Codex: Adeptus Astartes, or at most split it like the Horus heresy books - Codex: Adeptus Astartes and Codex Adaptus Astartes: Space Marine Chapters.

The main army list would just be all the standard Space Marine units - Tactical Marines, intercessors, Scouts, terminators, Captains, Librarians, etc. The Chapter-specific bits would be the Chapter tactics, Chapter-specific Relics, Stratagems, special rules, Warlord Traits, Psychic powers, that sort of thing. not too much; two or three per Chapter. Also, it would have the changes required from the main army list. Again, not too much - a page of required rules tweaks and a new datasheet or two.

For example, Space Wolves:
Assault Squads can have up to 15 models, Devastator squads only five. Tactical Squads may not take a heavy weapon, but can have a second special weapon instead. All models may be equipped with close combat weapons and up to two may have a power sword, axe, fist and/or plasma pistol.
All squad sergeants may be equipped with Terminator armour (alternatively, include Wolf Guard battle Leader as a datasheet along with Thunderwolf Cavalry)

Dark Angels:
Don't really need much - additional wargear options for Deathwing terminators, perhaps extra rules for Bike and Land Speeder units to represent Ravenwing and datasheets for their planes and fancy Land Speeder.

Blood Angels:
Death company datasheet, and allow Command Squads and Honour Guard to take jump packs.

Black Templars:
Either include a new datasheet for the mixed squad of Tactical marines and Scouts or come up with a rule to let you take a Tactical Squad, a Scout Squad and combine the two

Ultramarines:
Tyrannic War veterans - either a new datasheet or a tweak to the Sternguard and Vanguard veteran squads.

and likewise for any other Chapters that might warrant rules of their own.

Deathwatch don't need a whole Codex - just say that a Deathwatch Kill Team is made up of three to ten Space marines chosen from any non-Character Infantry datasheet, each of which can be from any Chapter. Include some special wargear options and job's a good 'un. Only Grey Knights need their own full army list.

Well, you just described Index Imperium 1, which was a great way to reset the armies at the dawn of 8th Edition. The subsequent DA, BA, SW, DW and GK Codexes built on that great Index. The game of 40K is quite rich in background and forces, why restrict ourselves to one book for Space Marines?

The Chapters that have their own books have a number of characteristics that warrant their having their own books. First, they are non-Codex compliant and have their own unique structures. Second, they have distinct play styles derived from structure, stratagems, characters, relics and chapter tactics. Thirdly, they have enough established lore along with continued development to make their book compelling for the person collecting the army. I recognize that not everybody finds the Dark Angels compelling. That's cool. We might like different music as well. Ultimately its up to the market to drive GW's decision-making on separate books/models. It would seem that the demand is there. While there is an opportunity cost, I'm not sure how it hurts other people that the Dark Angels have their own book. You don't need to buy it if you don't want to, and what is the Dark Angel's book preventing?

I have sympathy for folks that had a unique Codex at some point and then lost it. What led to the Black Templars getting rolled back into the Space Marines book? I'm not sure. There was a trend with various Editions after 2nd to push other chapters such as Salamanders (Codex Armageddon) and the Black Templars. They would qualify by my own (arguable and non-established) criteria above. Perhaps not enough people found them compelling enough? Lore and "fluff" is funny that way - you can't bottle it. You can't quantify it. And its really important.

At least many other Chapters have distinction within the larger Space Marines Codex. It's not a bad compromise.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Ah the extreme strawman argument - "sigh" Try harder.

Strawman's the only kind of argument you've been making this entire thread, though.

 Mr Morden wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
The development and maintenance of separate codexes for Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Space Wolves is well established. They have plenty of lore. Enough people find the distinct chapters/rules/models compelling to warrant their continuance. The investment in distinct models is also somewhat modest. They all play a little differently, which means variety. How is this a bad thing?

What even prompted this thread?

I'd argue that they aren't different enough to warrant their own codex, when you've got similar deviations in, say, Orks.

Why do Marines get the biggest codex, three codex deviations (DA, BA, and SW), and two pseudo Marine dexes (GK and DW) whereas, say, Orks only get one codex that's much smaller than the Marine's one? or Guard?

It's especially egregious considering that there's approximately one million Marines in 40k. Even if that's off by a factor of moire than ten, meaning there's dozens of millions of Marines, they're still LUDICROUSLY outnumbered by Orks or Guardsmen.

Yeah it's wild, almost like someone looked at the demand for space marine related products, said "gak dawg we could almost make an entire game out of just space marines and people would still buy it!"

Except thats not what happened. Other stuff sells - IF you make and market it.

What we have had for decades is:

We (GW) are a Grocery that sells a variety of fruit except actually we sell 20 different kinds of Apples, only lalk about apples and market that we sell apples - yeah we sell bananas, pears and other fruit but only grudgingly and if we have to - certinaly don't market it. Wierdly enough we sell mostly..........apples - who would have thought it.

Now they are selling new pears and cherries and all sorts of things but still pushing apples and still those who like Apples demand that Apples are the most improtant fruit adn only their fruit matters.

Yes because that is how a business operates. You produce something and only hope it sells due to the fact you produced a lot of it. Get real mate. The space marine line up was not always this big and varied, it became this way because of continued demand and sales. GW will invest in producing models that are most demanded, and thus will provide the greatest ROI. Xenos lineups will be expanded if they are demanded sufficiently and have the sales to back up said demands. GSC just got a whole wack of new toys, mainly cause of the recent popularity and sales figures of Nids and cults. GW is a business, they will produce what sells best, and they will invest in the avenues that feature the greatest demand and potential returns.

OK, so which is it. You keep your lore and your rules, or is it nobody gets unique units and everything is Primaris-generic? I like the special rules and sacrifices. I know I don't get excellent assault troops, but that's OK. If I want those I'll build a different chapter.

It's a dumb concept, you just remove everything and say this is Space Marines, period. Could you try any harder to make Space Marines more boring than they currently are?

We could just change the whole thing...Space Marines as one singular faction, no BA, SW, DW or GK. Guard. Nids (but not GSC, not needed). Orks. Eldar (but not Harlies or DE). Chaos as Daemons only (and no separate Gods), don;t need more marines. Also drop Necrons and Tau....2 Xenos races is enough. And get rid of knights too....don't need them.
is that the kind of generic vanilla you're looking for? Does that cut down on your bloat?

Ah the extreme strawman argument - "sigh" Try harder.

If you are conversant with background of the myriad of Chapters you will know that most so called unique units are NOT and all this pretend variety thats confimed to a few chapters happens for no GOOD reason

read this excellent post form Andrew and tell me what YOU are missing from your army if this was implemented? The Fluuf is all there - all the units are there - what exactly are you not getting that you need for your special army?

How about the models themselves? IG players can still use their old regimental models, but they sure as hell cant buy new ones cause GW only makes Cadians and Catachan now. Black Templar players havent got a model that is distinctly Black Templar in ages, and they dont even have an upgrade sprue to make new space marine releases look like the rest of their army.

 Melissia wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Ah the extreme strawman argument - "sigh" Try harder.

Strawman's the only kind of argument you've been making this entire thread, though.

Not really - I keep asking people what exactly they are loosing and I get hyerbole about destroying thier entire collection and that theri armies will be reduced to 3 tyes of Marines and somehwo their entire fluff will be lost.

The reality is that if the rules changed for the SW, BA, and DA again (and they have changed the model range virtually every edition) to what has been proposed nothing would be lost. No one has yet shown by allowing more options in the say terminator dataslate how that is a mortal wound to the intergrity and uniqueness of the Dark Angels - I thought this was about the fluff which would be unchanged..

There would be all the relevant options in the base units dataslate or the Chapter tactics rules

All the fluff would be exactly the same - the only different is that other Chapters, including other First Founding could be more representative of their own fluff - I donlt understand why certain people are so defensive of their own chosen Chapters and consquenetly so dissmissive of all the others.

72Canadian72 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
The development and maintenance of separate codexes for Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Space Wolves is well established. They have plenty of lore. Enough people find the distinct chapters/rules/models compelling to warrant their continuance. The investment in distinct models is also somewhat modest. They all play a little differently, which means variety. How is this a bad thing?

What even prompted this thread?

I'd argue that they aren't different enough to warrant their own codex, when you've got similar deviations in, say, Orks.

Why do Marines get the biggest codex, three codex deviations (DA, BA, and SW), and two pseudo Marine dexes (GK and DW) whereas, say, Orks only get one codex that's much smaller than the Marine's one? or Guard?

It's especially egregious considering that there's approximately one million Marines in 40k. Even if that's off by a factor of moire than ten, meaning there's dozens of millions of Marines, they're still LUDICROUSLY outnumbered by Orks or Guardsmen.

Yeah it's wild, almost like someone looked at the demand for space marine related products, said "gak dawg we could almost make an entire game out of just space marines and people would still buy it!"

Except thats not what happened. Other stuff sells - IF you make and market it.

What we have had for decades is:

We (GW) are a Grocery that sells a variety of fruit except actually we sell 20 different kinds of Apples, only lalk about apples and market that we sell apples - yeah we sell bananas, pears and other fruit but only grudgingly and if we have to - certinaly don't market it. Wierdly enough we sell mostly..........apples - who would have thought it.

Now they are selling new pears and cherries and all sorts of things but still pushing apples and still those who like Apples demand that Apples are the most improtant fruit adn only their fruit matters.

Yes because that is how a business operates. You produce something and only hope it sells due to the fact you produced a lot of it. Get real mate. The space marine line up was not always this big and varied, it became this way because of continued demand and sales. GW will invest in producing models that are most demanded, and thus will provide the greatest ROI. Xenos lineups will be expanded if they are demanded sufficiently and have the sales to back up said demands. GSC just got a whole wack of new toys, mainly cause of the recent popularity and sales figures of Nids and cults. GW is a business, they will produce what sells best, and they will invest in the avenues that feature the greatest demand and potential returns.

OK, so which is it. You keep your lore and your rules, or is it nobody gets unique units and everything is Primaris-generic? I like the special rules and sacrifices. I know I don't get excellent assault troops, but that's OK. If I want those I'll build a different chapter.

It's a dumb concept, you just remove everything and say this is Space Marines, period. Could you try any harder to make Space Marines more boring than they currently are?

We could just change the whole thing...Space Marines as one singular faction, no BA, SW, DW or GK. Guard. Nids (but not GSC, not needed). Orks. Eldar (but not Harlies or DE). Chaos as Daemons only (and no separate Gods), don;t need more marines. Also drop Necrons and Tau....2 Xenos races is enough. And get rid of knights too....don't need them.
is that the kind of generic vanilla you're looking for? Does that cut down on your bloat?

Ah the extreme strawman argument - "sigh" Try harder.

If you are conversant with background of the myriad of Chapters you will know that most so called unique units are NOT and all this pretend variety thats confimed to a few chapters happens for no GOOD reason

read this excellent post form Andrew and tell me what YOU are missing from your army if this was implemented? The Fluuf is all there - all the units are there - what exactly are you not getting that you need for your special army?

How about the models themselves? IG players can still use their old regimental models, but they sure as hell cant buy new ones cause GW only makes Cadians and Catachan now. Black Templar players havent got a model that is distinctly Black Templar in ages, and they dont even have an upgrade sprue to make new space marine releases look like the rest of their army.

Strangely enough I am not your "Mate" - never met you.

If you are an apple shop thats fine but if your a greengrocer then you are not maximising your sales - now they are starting to do so and and selling something other than apples.

Third time - WHAT units would your super special army loose by the suggested rules? The Fluff remains the same, so what else are you so angry about?

If its just I want my sub faction army to have lots of models at everyone lese's expense - well that says it all

 bullyboy wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

You cut down on the bloat by not having various pretend unique units.

OK, so which is it. You keep your lore and your rules, or is it nobody gets unique units and everything is Primaris-generic? I like the special rules and sacrifices. I know I don't get excellent assault troops, but that's OK. If I want those I'll build a different chapter.

It's a dumb concept, you just remove everything and say this is Space Marines, period. Could you try any harder to make Space Marines more boring than they currently are?

We could just change the whole thing...Space Marines as one singular faction, no BA, SW, DW or GK. Guard. Nids (but not GSC, not needed). Orks. Eldar (but not Harlies or DE). Chaos as Daemons only (and no separate Gods), don;t need more marines. Also drop Necrons and Tau....2 Xenos races is enough. And get rid of knights too....don't need them.
is that the kind of generic vanilla you're looking for? Does that cut down on your bloat?

As is, there really isn't enough unique about the Angels armies that stops them from being consolidated. Every Chapter gets 3-4 unique units, bam done. That makes it FAR easier to balance.

Hell I'd consolidate the Space Wolves too if GW didn't add a bunch of unnecessary units.

....Interesting how you seem to have completely abandoned the topic of the thread here.

You seem to be saying "everyone hates the idea of a terminator datasheet that includes all the options from all the current marine dexes! Those entitled snowflakes!" when that's not the subject of discussion in the OP.

The OP is "what would happen if all existing marine dexes were replaced with PRIMARIS MARINES"

stylewise, primaris marines essentially fit...no existing space marine chapter. How would you run "speedy, born in the saddle" white scars with no bikers? How would you run an ultramarine first company list with no veteran units? Armored Iron Hands with all of a single vehicle option? Flexible specialist deathwatch with no weapons besides boltguns?

the_scotsman wrote:

stylewise, primaris marines essentially fit...no existing space marine chapter. How would you run "speedy, born in the saddle" white scars with no bikers? How would you run an ultramarine first company list with no veteran units? Armored Iron Hands with all of a single vehicle option? Flexible specialist deathwatch with no weapons besides boltguns?

Veteran Primaris already exist and those other things will eventually exist too.

the_scotsman wrote:
....Interesting how you seem to have completely abandoned the topic of the thread here.

You seem to be saying "everyone hates the idea of a terminator datasheet that includes all the options from all the current marine dexes! Those entitled snowflakes!" when that's not the subject of discussion in the OP.

The OP is "what would happen if all existing marine dexes were replaced with PRIMARIS MARINES"

stylewise, primaris marines essentially fit...no existing space marine chapter. How would you run "speedy, born in the saddle" white scars with no bikers? How would you run an ultramarine first company list with no veteran units? Armored Iron Hands with all of a single vehicle option? Flexible specialist deathwatch with no weapons besides boltguns?

The thread evolved - it does happen quite often - Bit like how you are talking about what happened to the Crimson Slaughter https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/3630/769765.page - but I guess thats all fine ......

However to keep you happy I will start another, I assume you will do the same in that thread and keep it for relevant information on Shadow Spear and Vigilius

Strangely enough I am not your "Mate" - never met you.

If you are an apple shop thats fine but if your a greengrocer then you are not maximising your sales - now they are starting to do so and and selling something other than apples.

Third time - WHAT units would your super special army loose by the suggested rules? The Fluff remains the same, so what else are you so angry about?

If its just I want my sub faction army to have lots of models at everyone lese's expense - well that says it all

You clearly havent spoken to many Canadians than if you find it strange to be called mate

You keep making this grocery analogy, but it just doesnt work here. GW produces models. The models they produce are those that sell well. New models are developed based on where the greatest potential returns are. Models that dont sell well, never get touched. The reason the Dark Eldar models suck so much, isnt cause GW hates Dark Eldar players, but because there is insufficent demand to warrant them spending money modernizing the line. If there are no returns, you dont invest in that avenue. BA/SW/DA/GK/DW, all came into existence and continue to exist and be supported due to GW seeing the demand, and continuing to gain high sales from the customers who made these demands.

For Dark Angels alone, I can count , 17 different enteries in my codex off the top of my head that all have a unique dark angels model. I couldnt give a damn, if scout bikes performed the same as ravenwing bikes, i would still continue to buy and want new ravenwing bikes, because those are the models I like and want. Scout bikes look stupid in my opinion compared to ravenwing bikes. You are arguing for the exact same thing to happen to space marines as a whole that DID happen to IG, and than saying people are being hyperbolic for not wanting their model lines to be discontinued just like what happened with the old IG regiments. Tell me how easy it is to field a Death Krieg army of IG as a new player, given you cant buy any of their models anymore from GW. Surely its the exact same to just buy Cadian models and use Death Krieg rules eh? You forget that half the reason anyone plays the army they do is because they like the look of that army, and want it to continue to being a thing. How does Dark Angels being a thing hurt anyone else? By that argument Tau hurt Ork players cause its another Xenos army taking away from potential investments into Orks!

PS. I am not angry, I am simply in disbelief that you find it so crazy that people care about their unique models remaining cool and unique in appearance, instead of having to use the models for an army they didnt like, and actively chose to not play in the first place.

Unique models are cool. Unique rules are often unnecessary though.

Apparently this slightly off tangent conversation is upsetting some of the posters so I made a new thread to continue it if you so wish

 Mr Morden wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
....Interesting how you seem to have completely abandoned the topic of the thread here.

You seem to be saying "everyone hates the idea of a terminator datasheet that includes all the options from all the current marine dexes! Those entitled snowflakes!" when that's not the subject of discussion in the OP.

The OP is "what would happen if all existing marine dexes were replaced with PRIMARIS MARINES"

stylewise, primaris marines essentially fit...no existing space marine chapter. How would you run "speedy, born in the saddle" white scars with no bikers? How would you run an ultramarine first company list with no veteran units? Armored Iron Hands with all of a single vehicle option? Flexible specialist deathwatch with no weapons besides boltguns?

The thread evolved - it does happen quite often - Bit like how you are talking about what happened to the Crimson Slaughter https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/3630/769765.page - but I guess thats all fine ......

However to keep you happy I will start another, I assume you will do the same in that thread and keep it for relevant information on Shadow Spear and Vigilius

Oh no, the person I am arguing with on the internet has found another post using the post history button! My credibility is instantly ruined! Now everyone will agree with him! I'm meltiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnng what a world....

the_scotsman wrote:
...stylewise, primaris marines essentially fit...no existing space marine chapter. How would you run "speedy, born in the saddle" white scars with no bikers? How would you run an ultramarine first company list with no veteran units? Armored Iron Hands with all of a single vehicle option? Flexible specialist deathwatch with no weapons besides boltguns?

You might consider that every Legion doesn't need every bit of their lore blurb written down in their rules. For White Scars you might consider their doctrinal emphasis on movement rather than their association with a specific unit and field an army centered around infantry in Repulsors and on Inceptors; "White Scars" does not mean "has no units other than motorcycles". For Ultramarines you might field a balanced combined-arms force and paint their helmets white to indicate they're the First Company; "Ultramarines" means "Codex-compliant, flexible, and balanced", not "must field units with Veteran in the name of the datasheet." A Primaris army isn't going to copy-paste the unit entries from their old-Marine army, that doesn't mean you can't play a fluffy army of that Chapter with Primaris models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:
...You seem to be saying "everyone hates the idea of a terminator datasheet that includes all the options from all the current marine dexes! Those entitled snowflakes!" when that's not the subject of discussion in the OP...

As the person who brought up the Terminators I feel the need to clarify that was an analogy intended to talk about how you could make Deathwing Terminators distinct from Ultramarines Terminators via the Chapter Tactics rule alone rather than an entire new datasheet, and that you can give people snowflakey models and snowflakey rules without giving them unique Codexes/datasheets. Taking it back to 30k a Night Lords Tactical Squad and an Imperial Fists Tactical Squad differ only in their Legion Tactics, yet despite having all the same options they play like very different units.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
...stylewise, primaris marines essentially fit...no existing space marine chapter. How would you run "speedy, born in the saddle" white scars with no bikers? How would you run an ultramarine first company list with no veteran units? Armored Iron Hands with all of a single vehicle option? Flexible specialist deathwatch with no weapons besides boltguns?

You might consider that every Legion doesn't need every bit of their lore blurb written down in their rules. For White Scars you might consider their doctrinal emphasis on movement rather than their association with a specific unit and field an army centered around infantry in Repulsors and on Inceptors; "White Scars" does not mean "has no units other than motorcycles". For Ultramarines you might field a balanced combined-arms force and paint their helmets white to indicate they're the First Company; "Ultramarines" means "Codex-compliant, flexible, and balanced", not "must field units with Veteran in the name of the datasheet." A Primaris army isn't going to copy-paste the unit entries from their old-Marine army, that doesn't mean you can't play a fluffy army of that Chapter with Primaris models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:
...You seem to be saying "everyone hates the idea of a terminator datasheet that includes all the options from all the current marine dexes! Those entitled snowflakes!" when that's not the subject of discussion in the OP...

As the person who brought up the Terminators I feel the need to clarify that was an analogy intended to talk about how you could make Deathwing Terminators distinct from Ultramarines Terminators via the Chapter Tactics rule alone rather than an entire new datasheet, and that you can give people snowflakey models and snowflakey rules without giving them unique Codexes/datasheets. Taking it back to 30k a Night Lords Tactical Squad and an Imperial Fists Tactical Squad differ only in their Legion Tactics, yet despite having all the same options they play like very different units.

Yup. The fluff of your army absolutely does not have to be included in your rules or army construction. It can just be in your brain, and you can just use the same rules and models everyone else does and paint them a different color while imagining that they have a particular style.

Generally, people seem to prefer their armies to have unique rules reflecting their style. Seems like a popular aspect of 8th edition.

odd question. The variability of the various septs, chapters legions and so on has allowed the imagination to be fired by different people for different reasons and si the causeof their success in my opinion. No one could get away with robbing people like GW does if it were not so.