Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
When a company becomes so big people have effectively no choice about using it, it's time to break it up.

Alternatively, when a company is providing such good and cheap service that its competition keeps failing it's not time to break it up.

Alternatively alternatively, it's economics of scale rather than the service actually being good and the idea of fighting against a legal entity with more money than many countries is a complete farce.

Monopolies are not conductive to increasing standards in the long run. If counteracting monopolies means reduced efficiency in the short term then so be it. There are more factors to a living standard than just material wealth.

You can't break it up, not without some repressive legislations being introduced. It's humanities failing, in that we're happy to sacrifice all our freedoms and most intimate information for convenience, and this is the result. We've only got ourself to blame.

That and a lot of the time much of the information we "sacrifice" we can't see the connections with. Ergo its given away but we don't see how it can't not benefit us - or its information so commonly given out that we fail to see how it might be special or in need of protection in some situations.

That said with the way a lot of creative media an the internet is going I think we are also steadily growing generations who are used to the idea of our data being taken by marketing to allow better product marketing to us which in turn pays for many of the "free" things that we enjoy in life. Just consider how many websites are based off the backs of advertising (either directly or as part of large groups)

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Alternatively alternatively, it's economics of scale rather than the service actually being good and the idea of fighting against a legal entity with more money than many countries is a complete farce.

Monopolies are not conductive to increasing standards in the long run. If counteracting monopolies means reduced efficiency in the short term then so be it. There are more factors to a living standard than just material wealth.

It absolutely is good service. What is Amazon doing with their economies of scale? They aren't just pocketing lots of easy profit, they're keeping prices down and providing a product that customers want. If other companies fail to compete with Amazon it's because they are providing a less desirable product, not because Amazon has exclusive ownership of a limited resource that online shopping depends on. In fact, there is constant competition from a great many rivals and Amazon only succeeds as long as it is doing a better job at meeting customer demands. So what exactly is the justification for shutting down this so-called monopoly?

(Obviously Amazon isn't a monopoly, but even under the assumption that they are there still isn't a great case for doing anything about it.)

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
You can't break it up, not without some repressive legislations being introduced. It's humanities failing, in that we're happy to sacrifice all our freedoms and most intimate information for convenience, and this is the result. We've only got ourself to blame.

AT&T was broken up without american becoming a fascist state, and anyway it became a fascist stare after 911, so I think we could break up amazon and microborg without oppressing anyone but a few poor helpless billionaires. And if they feel oppressed the can move to another country.

 Overread wrote:
That and a lot of the time much of the information we "sacrifice" we can't see the connections with. Ergo its given away but we don't see how it can't not benefit us - or its information so commonly given out that we fail to see how it might be special or in need of protection in some situations.

That said with the way a lot of creative media an the internet is going I think we are also steadily growing generations who are used to the idea of our data being taken by marketing to allow better product marketing to us which in turn pays for many of the "free" things that we enjoy in life. Just consider how many websites are based off the backs of advertising (either directly or as part of large groups)

Indeed. I tried to point this out to some of my work colleagues and they just shrugged it off. Said they'd rather have adverts tailored specifically to them.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:

 Overread wrote:
That and a lot of the time much of the information we "sacrifice" we can't see the connections with. Ergo its given away but we don't see how it can't not benefit us - or its information so commonly given out that we fail to see how it might be special or in need of protection in some situations.

That said with the way a lot of creative media an the internet is going I think we are also steadily growing generations who are used to the idea of our data being taken by marketing to allow better product marketing to us which in turn pays for many of the "free" things that we enjoy in life. Just consider how many websites are based off the backs of advertising (either directly or as part of large groups)

Indeed. I tried to point this out to some of my work colleagues and they just shrugged it off. Said they'd rather have adverts tailored specifically to them.

That or they are using ad blockers.

Thing is if ads are targeted toward you then, generally speaking, it can improve ones experience because the annoying ads are at least somewhat focused on things one has searched for. However its still a very rough science. Eg it can't tell the difference between what you're looking for for yourself and a gift for another person. Or the difference between work and hobby purchases. Heck sometimes they can link together random information and start throwing some really odd results and wildcards into the mix. Plus a cookie re-set shuffles it all around once more (save on a specific website where they've got your purchase history tied to your account or a viewing history).

So there is logic in there - the people are accepting marketing targeted toward them more so than random marketing. Either way the marketing is going to happen. Of course one can argue that targeted has a greater chance of generating a sale over random - however its a bit like going into the corner shop in Open All Hours - you know you're going to be fleeced to buy stuff before you step in the door. In time I wonder if newer generations will either end up more led by marketing or might even grow to resist it at a greater degree; then again it might be a lot play into human habits - eg take Magic the Gathering. We can all see the product recycles a lot of abilities and concepts and we can all see that they recycle their whole line every year and invalidate (at least in the standard format) last years cards. The whole thing is built to just generate more card sales over more and encourage more buying - yet there are vast numbers of fans happy with this.

But ad blockers aren't 100‰ effective, especially on phones. I understand that companies need to advertise, but I object to them forcing upon me the need to access my personal photos, messages, and record my voice conversations to add data to their algortihims so as to aggressively monetise everything in my life. Its out of order really.

It's not just ads, it's prices. Amazon already changes the price of items depending on who's searching. Not a problem? What if they see that you buy something like nutritional supplements, and they know that you like in a small town where there's no alternative supplier. So the price you see will creep up slowly because you've got no other choice. Their system might even be able to determine if you own a car or not, and thus alter the price more for you than for your next-door neighbour who does have a car, because they know he can drive to the next town but you can't.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
It's not just ads, it's prices. Amazon already changes the price of items depending on who's searching. Not a problem? What if they see that you buy something like nutritional supplements, and they know that you like in a small town where there's no alternative supplier. So the price you see will creep up slowly because you've got no other choice. Their system might even be able to determine if you own a car or not, and thus alter the price more for you than for your next-door neighbour who does have a car, because they know he can drive to the next town but you can't.

In fairness this happens in the real world too, but more so in some markets than others. Eg builders merchants or car dealers are often far more open to haggling right from the get-go - whilst if you're shopping in Tesco's the price on the till is the price you pay - end of (unless you want to try haggling and then you have to get a manager and its more of an argument than a haggle).

The only difference is that Amazon is controlling all the situation and isn't letting you the customer haggle back for the price. It's also a generational thing, I think that many generations today are brought up with barcodes and price tags to the point where we are conditioned to accept the price as advertised. Of course a free market also means that companies cna chop and change the prices on things a lot - supermarkets have been abusing this for years. Lowering the price on some goods for a period of time then raising the price on others then swapping it all over next week. The more they destabilize the concept of a price the easier it is for them to steadily increase it because the customer has less concept of the products value. At least unless they are a very dedicated shopper and keep records of the prices of key items and shop around all the time - which in itself is not a small investment of time to achieve.

In fact the only store I've sort of seen haggling on is Ebay with their "best offer" option.

Yes, but the difference there is even though I can't haggle in Tesco, I pay the same price for a packet of digestives as you do. They do change things to an extent - with the loyalty scheme vouchers you get - but the way Amazon do it is much less transparent.

Remember, one of the assumptions of the free market is an informed customer, not one that is misled by advertising and obfuscation.

Aye very true though I wonder how big the price differences are in reality. Though even a small difference is still adifference but I wonder if we are talking major price swings here.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Yes, but the difference there is even though I can't haggle in Tesco, I pay the same price for a packet of digestives as you do. They do change things to an extent - with the loyalty scheme vouchers you get - but the way Amazon do it is much less transparent.

Remember, one of the assumptions of the free market is an informed customer, not one that is misled by advertising and obfuscation.

Actually, it's entirely possible you don't pay the same price I do for a packet of digestives. There are five Tesco stores in and around my town, one of which is the local home delivery fulfillment centre - prices in each can be different for the same item depending on the affluence of the area and Tesco's judgement on how much access to transportation you have("luxury" items are more expensive in stores next to "posh areas" and both cheaper and less numerous in stores elsewhere; the city centre stores charge higher prices because Tesco know the majority of their customers are limited to public transport and getting out to the big, cheaper out of town stores is a hassle for them), and the online prices for customers who's product comes from the fulfillment store can be different from the prices for people who actually go there and physically buy things(heavy items tend to pick up a small hidden surcharge for online orders). All large chain stores do this, where do you think Amazon got the idea from.

And this is the problem with your latter statement - the entire concept of the informed consumer is a myth. It is not functionally possible to remain informed about the practices and activities of the companies you buy things from unless you devote your full attention and time to the task, the very *existence* of "marketing" alone makes it impossible because to be truly informed you have to double-check every. single. claim. you ever see made, since the level of truthfulness required from advertising is well, well below absolute. People see what Amazon et al are doing as being unique and sinister, when the reality is they're just automating and streamlining the sinister parts of the retail business along with all the others, and we've all been getting fleeced in very similar ways all along just without noticing.

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
AT&T was broken up without american becoming a fascist state, and anyway it became a fascist stare after 911, so I think we could break up amazon and microborg without oppressing anyone but a few poor helpless billionaires. And if they feel oppressed the can move to another country.

One key difference: AT&T actually had a monopoly, Amazon just has a strong market position among lots of competition.

 Yodhrin wrote:

And this is the problem with your latter statement - the entire concept of the informed consumer is a myth. It is not functionally possible to remain informed about the practices and activities of the companies you buy things from unless you devote your full attention and time to the task, the very *existence* of "marketing" alone makes it impossible because to be truly informed you have to double-check every. single. claim. you ever see made, since the level of truthfulness required from advertising is well, well below absolute. People see what Amazon et al are doing as being unique and sinister, when the reality is they're just automating and streamlining the sinister parts of the retail business along with all the others, and we've all been getting fleeced in very similar ways all along just without noticing.

Also, it's not a problem with my statement - it's a problem for the proponents of free market economics, or rather a problem for the unfortunates who are getting suckered by them.

The free market is a scam. In america we have a free market cable and internet system and we get the highest prices and worst service in the world.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ilMx7k7mso

Our free market healthcare system turns lives into corporate profits. "Free market" is just dogwhistle for letting business rob people perpetually.

The "free market" is about corporate profits. Yiu can see the proof of that when some new innovation threatens big corporations and the laws, regulations, polices, etc come down on it almost instantly.

Typically any free market requires some degree of regulation in order to work. So yes its never fully "free", but its more free than government regulated prices. In theory a free market lower prices, but in truth once you get one or a handful of major players they can easily conspire to fix prices and will often do so until they are caught.

Several major supermarkets in the UK got caught a few years back as they were raising the price of milk/dairy to customers, but at the same time significantly lowering the price they'd pay to buy from the farms. Basically letting them pocket the margin between and because they were all major players they could get away with it. The farms were either tied into contracts or limited on who could purchase their volume of produce. So most had to trade with those supermarkets.

Regulation and monitoring of companies should, in theory (and in that case did) step in to exercise regulations and laws to prevent abuse of the system.

 Overread wrote:


Regulation and monitoring of companies should, in theory (and in that case did) step in to exercise regulations and laws to prevent abuse of the system.

That's only as good as the political will to carry it all out.

Hail S̶a̶t̶a̶n̶ Amazon!

 Overread wrote:
Typically any free market requires some degree of regulation in order to work. So yes its never fully "free", but its more free than government regulated prices. In theory a free market lower prices, but in truth once you get one or a handful of major players they can easily conspire to fix prices and will often do so until they are caught.

Several major supermarkets in the UK got caught a few years back as they were raising the price of milk/dairy to customers, but at the same time significantly lowering the price they'd pay to buy from the farms. Basically letting them pocket the margin between and because they were all major players they could get away with it. The farms were either tied into contracts or limited on who could purchase their volume of produce. So most had to trade with those supermarkets.

Regulation and monitoring of companies should, in theory (and in that case did) step in to exercise regulations and laws to prevent abuse of the system.

If a "unregulated" and therefore "free" market gives us medical priices so obscenely inflated thousands die each year from being unable to afford them, i'll take some government regulation. If we have to actually literally force the government to do it and corporation to accept it i'm ok with that too.

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
When a company becomes so big people have effectively no choice about using it, it's time to break it up.

You have a choice. If you don't want to buy from Amazon, don't. Just go out into the "real world" and hand cash to people for goods

A monopoly has never existed without the backing / sanction of a government ( force ). A monopoly between actors in a 100% unregulated, free market is impossible. Anytime you think you see a monopoly, what you are being lied about is the politician involved making it happen.

Amazon has improved my life ten fold. I love it, and I hope it does better and better each year.

Also don't forget that a lot of stuff sold on Amazon isn't "amazon". There are a lot of smaller and bigger sellers on the service who also sell their products through Amazon, much like they might through ebay. Sure Amazon takes a cut, but they also supply the website, advertising on the website and the shipping system (and honestly Amazons shipping is REALLY good now - the old days of " up to 14 working days " are long gone)

 BuFFo wrote:

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
When a company becomes so big people have effectively no choice about using it, it's time to break it up.

You have a choice. If you don't want to buy from Amazon, don't. Just go out into the "real world" and hand cash to people for goods

A monopoly has never existed without the backing / sanction of a government ( force ). A monopoly between actors in a 100% unregulated, free market is impossible. Anytime you think you see a monopoly, what you are being lied about is the politician involved making it happen.

Amazon has improved my life ten fold. I love it, and I hope it does better and better each year.

Baloney. A lo of items are only physically on sale at certain areas. I can't just drive hundred of miles to get some things.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BuFFo wrote:

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
When a company becomes so big people have effectively no choice about using it, it's time to break it up.

You have a choice. If you don't want to buy from Amazon, don't. Just go out into the "real world" and hand cash to people for goods

A monopoly has never existed without the backing / sanction of a government ( force ). A monopoly between actors in a 100% unregulated, free market is impossible. Anytime you think you see a monopoly, what you are being lied about is the politician involved making it happen.

Amazon has improved my life ten fold. I love it, and I hope it does better and better each year.

Baloney. A lo of items are only physically on sale at certain areas. I can't just drive hundred of miles to get some things.

 BuFFo wrote:

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
When a company becomes so big people have effectively no choice about using it, it's time to break it up.

You have a choice. If you don't want to buy from Amazon, don't. Just go out into the "real world" and hand cash to people for goods

A monopoly has never existed without the backing / sanction of a government ( force ). A monopoly between actors in a 100% unregulated, free market is impossible. Anytime you think you see a monopoly, what you are being lied about is the politician involved making it happen.

Amazon has improved my life ten fold. I love it, and I hope it does better and better each year.

I bet that is what Bill Gates was thinking as he was bankrolling Apple so Microsoft wouldn't be broken up by Congress, something along the lines of "Those dang politicians forcing me in to a monopoly!"

Basically what I am saying is you are wrong, so so wrong.

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
Baloney. A lo of items are only physically on sale at certain areas. I can't just drive hundred of miles to get some things.

Then buy it online from somewhere other than Amazon. I seriously doubt there are very many items where Amazon is the only reasonable source.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
Baloney. A lo of items are only physically on sale at certain areas. I can't just drive hundred of miles to get some things.

Then buy it online from somewhere other than Amazon. I seriously doubt there are very many items where Amazon is the only reasonable source.

What are those other services? I never see them advertised. Always Amazon for advertisements. You could go directly to a companies store and order what you want I suppose, but if you do that with a lot of items then you are paying a lot of shipping. Much cheaper to use a service, the only one I ever see advertised and that has good reviews. (Because people know about it and use it a lot!) Soooo, what now? Looks like Amazon is my choice to save money on shipping, because shipping is the choke point for ordering online.

 Dreadwinter wrote:
What are those other services? I never see them advertised. Always Amazon for advertisements. You could go directly to a companies store and order what you want I suppose, but if you do that with a lot of items then you are paying a lot of shipping. Much cheaper to use a service, the only one I ever see advertised and that has good reviews. (Because people know about it and use it a lot!) Soooo, what now? Looks like Amazon is my choice to save money on shipping, because shipping is the choke point for ordering online.

Nice job moving the goalposts there, from "it's not available" to "Amazon gives me a better deal on shipping".

 Peregrine wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:
What are those other services? I never see them advertised. Always Amazon for advertisements. You could go directly to a companies store and order what you want I suppose, but if you do that with a lot of items then you are paying a lot of shipping. Much cheaper to use a service, the only one I ever see advertised and that has good reviews. (Because people know about it and use it a lot!) Soooo, what now? Looks like Amazon is my choice to save money on shipping, because shipping is the choke point for ordering online.

Nice job moving the goalposts there, from "it's not available" to "Amazon gives me a better deal on shipping".

We are talking about Monopolies, this is how they are formed. Better deals over here, oh hey look now you can buy OUR version of the product for cheaper and 3 day shipping! Wanna group it with these other products for a bigger deal? No problem! No shipping if you sign up for our service! Want some clicker buttons that auto order things for you without even having to use the internet? Done! ALEXA!!!!!!!!!

Getting it? Goalposts be damned, this is how monopolies work.

 Dreadwinter wrote:
We are talking about Monopolies, this is how they are formed. Better deals over here, oh hey look now you can buy OUR version of the product for cheaper and 3 day shipping! Wanna group it with these other products for a bigger deal? No problem! No shipping if you sign up for our service! Want some clicker buttons that auto order things for you without even having to use the internet? Done! ALEXA!!!!!!!!!

Getting it? Goalposts be damned, this is how monopolies work.

So any time a company has cheaper prices it's time to start worrying about monopolies, even when they have tons of competition? Is Walmart a monopoly because they sell a lot of cheap stuff?

PS: those auto-order buttons you're worrying about? Already discontinued because they weren't a successful product.

as much as it pains me to say it, I agree with peregrine here. a monopoly means you have no other choice but to use that company, which, especially in this modern age is most certainly not the case.

The problem with amazon is not its size, although the means with which it can afford to become so large could be called into question (there have been lots of accounts lately of the questionable working conditions of amazon employees, and i'd be interested to know if their delivery drivers are paid/employed properly as they all seem to be eastern european or african migrants.) but the insidious nature of its algorithms, and its creeping insertion of data mining devices into the household.