Consolidation of Space Marines codexes – why not?

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**AlmightyWalrus**

"You can keep everything!"

"We just need to trim these things that I've decided you're not allowed to have any more!"

Pick one.

**72Canadian72**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
bullyboy wrote:
If I played Salamanders, I'd probably take a few Multi-Meltas

Well not even Salamanders players use them, so what does that tell you?

That not everyone is a sheep who uses the same list, and sometimes people make fluffy armies for fun, for the sake of having fluffy armies?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

bullyboy wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
bullyboy wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Having separate Codexes for DA, BA, SW, DW and GK allows each to go into more depth and detail regarding the rules and background while keeping the size of the book manageable. I'm interested in Dark Angels, so I buy that Codex and use virtually all of it. We went over this in the other thread, but I believe that the chapters listed are distinct enough in terms of lore, units, rules and playstyle to warrant their own books. Could this be said of other Chapters? Sure. Some had them before and lost them. The market will decide. Space Wolves may be hated by some, but clearly enough like them to keep them as a viable distinct line. I know that Dark Angels are very popular in my area. It can be hard to tell the true Blood Angels players from the Smash Captain band-wagoneers, but there are no shortage of Blood Angels players either. Anecdotal, to be sure, but we can also see all these forces getting represented in national level play.

Having distinct Chapters provides variety for the players at fairly limited opportunity cost for GW. As players, we make choices. That is a good thing. If I want Deathwing Terminator flexibility then I have to commit to Dark Angels. These means I do not have access to Vanguard Veterans. My Hellblasters can use Weapons From the Dark Age, but not the Space Wolves' ability to ignore negative modifiers or outflank. Now, the ability to have multiple detachments mitigates these choices, but the point remains. We have choices and they have consequences.

Restricting Deathwing and Ravenwing to Dark Angels does not mean that they are only for me. Anybody can play Dark Angels - its not a private club. Anybody can make a Successor Chapter and call them Dark Angels. You just have to abide by the limitations/restrictions of the list.

I get why GW might make changes in the future due to market demands, but why we want to give things up on our own is beyond me.

Here's the kicker though, Dark Angels don't actually have a lot that's unique, by this edition OR last edition. Consolidation and removal of unnecessary entries (nobody uses their fliers, come on) creates an better semblance of balance.

My God, I hope you're referring to regular Space Marine fliers instead of the DA ones otherwise the comment is beyond laughable.

Prove me wrong please.

Don't need to, go to DA tourny lists and look for Dark Talons. Go to DA tactics/FB pages and ask for list advice, guess what comes up.....
If you had said just Nephilims, then I'd agree, but many good DA lists take between 1 and 3 Dark Talons. Now, I don't seem to see the regular SM fliers in anyone's list so my point still stands. You're just not looking.

As an example, highest DA player at LVO had 3 of them

And look how well they're performing. Less than the Roboute lists spamming Repulsors and Stormravens.

Nobody is going to miss them, sorry.

So once again, not being a top tier tournie unit means no one uses or cares for them and wouldnt bat an eye if they were dropped at all? Mate every dark angel player on this thread has says they enjoy using and playing with the model. I guess we just dont count though do we?

**Gitdakka**

Dysartes wrote:
Crimson wrote:
I never get how so many people like pointless restrictions. Only BA tacticals can have heavy flamers only DA terminators can have plasma cannons. What's the point? How is this fun?

What's the point? The additional options add some flavour to the factions that can take them - and, to a degree, to the factions which can't take them.

Dark Angels have access to caches of ancient tech - something to do with this presumably explains how they get a plasma cannon onto a Terminator chassis without causing problems. Why don't other Chapters? As a general rule, ask the Mechanicus.

Blood Angels are an assault-y, in-your-face sort of Chapter, so they'd be carrying weapons suitable for that role. Unfortunately, some muppet forgot to make the Heavy Flamer an Assault option, rather than Heavy, but otherwise it fits as the sort of weapon you'd run up to a bunker or trench and fire into it with. Presumably other chapters don't find value in such a weapon option, so their squads don't take them.

Yeah my black templars not being able to use heavy flamers on tacticals (but they can on sternguard) and no melta guns, but flamers on assult marines is not flavour, it's stupid. Same could be said for any codex or other non codex chapter. Can players please be able pick their own wargear for identical units instead of having non sensical limitations? Blood angels are not the only "in your face chapter". All chapters should be able to choose "in your face"weapons.

**Slayer-Fan123**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
"You can keep everything!"

"We just need to trim these things that I've decided you're not allowed to have any more!"

Pick one.

Not everything is worth keeping for the sake of balance.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

72Canadian72 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
bullyboy wrote:
If I played Salamanders, I'd probably take a few Multi-Meltas

Well not even Salamanders players use them, so what does that tell you?

That not everyone is a sheep who uses the same list, and sometimes people make fluffy armies for fun, for the sake of having fluffy armies?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

bullyboy wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
bullyboy wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Having separate Codexes for DA, BA, SW, DW and GK allows each to go into more depth and detail regarding the rules and background while keeping the size of the book manageable. I'm interested in Dark Angels, so I buy that Codex and use virtually all of it. We went over this in the other thread, but I believe that the chapters listed are distinct enough in terms of lore, units, rules and playstyle to warrant their own books. Could this be said of other Chapters? Sure. Some had them before and lost them. The market will decide. Space Wolves may be hated by some, but clearly enough like them to keep them as a viable distinct line. I know that Dark Angels are very popular in my area. It can be hard to tell the true Blood Angels players from the Smash Captain band-wagoneers, but there are no shortage of Blood Angels players either. Anecdotal, to be sure, but we can also see all these forces getting represented in national level play.

Having distinct Chapters provides variety for the players at fairly limited opportunity cost for GW. As players, we make choices. That is a good thing. If I want Deathwing Terminator flexibility then I have to commit to Dark Angels. These means I do not have access to Vanguard Veterans. My Hellblasters can use Weapons From the Dark Age, but not the Space Wolves' ability to ignore negative modifiers or outflank. Now, the ability to have multiple detachments mitigates these choices, but the point remains. We have choices and they have consequences.

Restricting Deathwing and Ravenwing to Dark Angels does not mean that they are only for me. Anybody can play Dark Angels - its not a private club. Anybody can make a Successor Chapter and call them Dark Angels. You just have to abide by the limitations/restrictions of the list.

I get why GW might make changes in the future due to market demands, but why we want to give things up on our own is beyond me.

Here's the kicker though, Dark Angels don't actually have a lot that's unique, by this edition OR last edition. Consolidation and removal of unnecessary entries (nobody uses their fliers, come on) creates an better semblance of balance.

My God, I hope you're referring to regular Space Marine fliers instead of the DA ones otherwise the comment is beyond laughable.

Prove me wrong please.

Don't need to, go to DA tourny lists and look for Dark Talons. Go to DA tactics/FB pages and ask for list advice, guess what comes up.....
If you had said just Nephilims, then I'd agree, but many good DA lists take between 1 and 3 Dark Talons. Now, I don't seem to see the regular SM fliers in anyone's list so my point still stands. You're just not looking.

As an example, highest DA player at LVO had 3 of them

And look how well they're performing. Less than the Roboute lists spamming Repulsors and Stormravens.

Nobody is going to miss them, sorry.

So once again, not being a top tier tournie unit means no one uses or cares for them and wouldnt bat an eye if they were dropped at all? Mate every dark angel player on this thread has says they enjoy using and playing with the model. I guess we just dont count though do we?

Oh nice, the "sheep" and "netlister" arguments have come out!

The Dark Angels fliers can easily be used as Stormtalons or Stormhawks.

**Mr Morden**

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Lance845 wrote:
It doesn't hurt me. It's just a dumb argument you are making.

All those things could easily be condensed as we have seen in the indexes. There whole book of fluff is pointless argument. You could expand out the fluff of any sub faction by making up or expanding on the decades worth of stories for any of them.

Do you REALLY think there are not enough exploits of the Ultramarines to fill a fluff section on it's own?

The arguments your making for why they should stay separate amount to "Because I like the attention they get". Which is a bad argument to bring to the table.

They've done that in the past for other Chapters and then folded them back into the main Space Marines book, so its not like they haven't tried. There is nothing to say they won't make changes in the future. I am not sure what you are trying to say about the Ultramarines needing something?

Finally, saying that "your argument is dumb and it's a bad argument" does not help the discussion. I think that you are actually invented your own argument for me to make. I've laid out earlier in this thread and in the original thread the criteria by which I think that various Chapters should have their own Codex (distinct units/organization, background, playstyle). Its not based on whether I like them or not - that will drive whether I collect them. Whether any given Chapter (or Sept or Craftworld) fits that criteria will always be open to debate. While GW will make the decision, it is the market that will ultimately decide. The established Chapters with their own Codexes have seen their fortunes wax and wane. It looked pretty grim for some in the early days of 3rd. Nevertheless, their resilience over the decades is its own argument. Some might call that inertia, but its powerful nonetheless.

Maybe you are angry because you feel that your force has been neglected? You blame those that have the things that you want?

Please don't keep make this false "market" argument - its not relevant there is not magical market that chooses Space Wolves over Iron Hands for instance becuase there has not been this choice for the mythical market to choose from. If an Iron Hand (or other non super special sub action) player wants to support his chosen sub faction - how exactly does he or she do it?

GW have chosen three Chapters over 990+ for whatever reason but lets not pretend it was somehow made by others and they just had to go along.

If Iron Hands and Wolves or indeed non marine subfactions had had exactly the same support, publicity and drive then you could argue its "Da Market" but its not.

**72Canadian72**

Oh nice, the "sheep" and "netlister" arguments have come out!

The Dark Angels fliers can easily be used as Stormtalons or Stormhawks.

You are the one making the argument that if they arent heavily used in competitive play that they might as well not exist.

If a Dark Angels player wanted to use a stormtalon or stormhawk, we already could. The fact that we choose to play Dark Talons instead should tell you something about whether or not we like playing Dark Talons.

**Mr Morden**

I would love for someone to list the actuall differences between the following and see how difficult it would be to ammuglmate the two.... ie its not

Tac Marine Squad and Grey Hunter squad
Terminator Sqaud and Deathwatch Squad.

**bullyboy**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
bullyboy wrote:
If I played Salamanders, I'd probably take a few Multi-Meltas

Well not even Salamanders players use them, so what does that tell you?

wow, you know every player that plays Salamanders? Amazing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVFd_2Ee1HQ

OMG, what's this? A Salamanders army with MMs in it!!

Over generalizations are the epitome of Dakka posters

**Galas**

Slayer-fan people would take you more seriously if you didn't said absurd things like that.

And as others people have said the Dark Angel flyer have been nerfed 3 times (And one of those nerfs reverted) because they where that good.

And, they are like, the best looking Imperial Flyers alongside the Valkyrie and the Corvus Blackstar so if some space marine flyers is deserve of staying are the DA ones and not the ugly vanilla marines ones.

**TangoTwoBravo**

Morden,

Do you think that GW would keep putting resources into things that were not profitable? Dark Angels, Blood Angels and a space Wolves appear to have enough enduring distinctiveness and popularity to warrant their continued support as their own "factions." At the end of the day, I think what the community wants is more important than what one individual wants.

Do you think that a Codex Iron Hands would be distinct enough from the Space Marines Codex and popular enough to be successful? Go write one. Pitch it to GW. What we are seeing now is White Dwarf treatment of other Chapters - that is awesome.

The additional Marine codexes do use resources that I suppose could be devoted to make an additional Eldar or Tyranid Codex, or perhaps a whole new faction. I argue that the return on investment for the DA, BA and SW is better. It's not the same level of effort as a new force, and there is a good market for the modest investment for a DA Codex and line. The DA have a different structure that give three baseline army styles and a number of distinct units for a modest number of unique sculpts and boxes.

We have had a slew of Codexes since 8th dropped. The distinct Marine codexes do not seem to have stopped the other factions getting their due. Look at the rich GSC Codex and line. Vigilus shows that GW is spreading some love around to the various factions and indeed Chapters.

Cheers

**Quasistellar**

IDK why people argue about removing chapter specific vehicles that already exist. Just leave the ones in that make sense like dark talons and the space wolf flyer and make them DA or SW only. The Baal predator though IDK why you couldn't just make that variant available to everyone.

Edit: what I mean is the truly unique models should stay in as chapter specific options. The Baal pred is just a pred with different weapons. Just leave it in the game but available to all chapters.

This stuff doesn't have to be complicated or involve removing stuff. Whatever the SW equivalent tacs and havocs are for example can just be tacs and havocs with chapter keyword specific weapon options or abilities (I don't know SW differences enough so please forgive the vagueness of my suggestion).

You can even still sell the chapter specific kits with the different looking models by doing this--this just condenses things into a single book.

**Mr Morden**

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Morden,

Do you think that GW would keep putting resources into things that were not profitable? Dark Angels, Blood Angels and a space Wolves appear to have enough enduring distinctiveness and popularity to warrant their continued support as their own "factions." At the end of the day, I think what the community wants is more important than what one individual wants.

Do you think that a Codex Iron Hands would be distinct enough from the Space Marines Codex and popular enough to be successful? Go write one. Pitch it to GW. What we are seeing now is White Dwarf treatment of other Chapters - that is awesome.

The additional Marine codexes do use resources that I suppose could be devoted to make an additional Eldar or Tyranid Codex, or perhaps a whole new faction. I argue that the return on investment for the DA, BA and SW is better. It's not the same level of effort as a new force, and there is a good market for the modest investment for a DA Codex and line. The DA have a different structure that give three baseline army styles and a number of distinct units for a modest number of unique sculpts and boxes.

We have had a slew of Codexes since 8th dropped. The distinct Marine codexes do not seem to have stopped the other factions getting their due. Look at the rich GSC Codex and line. Vigilus shows that GW is spreading some love around to the various factions and indeed Chapters.

Cheers

And we have heard nothing but constant complaints from Marine players since the start of 8th edition.

My (insert sub faction) Marine dex is not out yet,
My (insert sub faction) Marine dex is out but too weak,
My (insert sub faction) Marine dex is after another faction when the other half dozen Marine dexes are alreayd out.
My (insert sub faction) Marine dex only gets X models (when other factions get none is a particular gem)

How exactly do you argue that the investment is better if its Never been tested? what kind of logic is that?

Now we are finally getting other Main factions releases - but ony after a river of the same old Marine dexes, clogging up the schedule with a few minor rules variants.

How many new or non Marine sub faction Dexes have been given a chance - none.

**Melissia**

Mr Morden wrote:
Tac Marine Squad and Grey Hunter squad

Grey Hunter Squads give up heavy weapons for mobility and close combat punch.

Mr Morden wrote:
Terminator Sqaud and Deathwatch Squad.

Are... are you joking?

You really can't tell the difference between these two?

Do... do you even play 40k?

**JNAProductions**

I believe he meant Deathwing.

**Melissia**

JNAProductions wrote:
I believe he meant Deathwing.

I do not retract my question.

**Mr Morden**

Melissia wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:
Tac Marine Squad and Grey Hunter squad
Grey Hunter Squads give up heavy weapons for mobility and close combat punch.

Mr Morden wrote:
Terminator Sqaud and Deathwatch Squad.
Are... are you joking?

You really can't tell the difference between these two?

Do... do you even play 40k?

Yes my mistake Deathwing - it happens, - moving on

So list the actual rules difference for the four units? If you made it so all Tac maines could choose between 2 special, 1 special and 1 heavy and 2 heavy whats the issue? Chainsword option added Chapter tactcis still apply

What have the Wovles lost now? And all the myriad of OTHER marine chapters that have similar units can now field them - How much room has that taken?

**AlmightyWalrus**

We should scrap Tau. They're just another shooty army anyway. Fire Warriors are Guardians, Battle Suits are Wraithguard, Stormsurges are Wraithknights and we'll get rid of Riptides because they're just silly and won't be missed. Hammerheads are Fire Prisms, Devilfishes are Wave Serpents, Broadside Battlesuits are Wraithlords. Ethereals are Farseers, Fireblades are Autarchs, and so on and so forth.

Tau are a nonentity competetively compared to Eldar anyway, so I'm sure all the Tau players would enjoy their new options.

**Jackal90**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
We should scrap Tau. They're just another shooty army anyway. Fire Warriors are Guardians, Battle Suits are Wraithguard, Stormsurges are Wraithknights and we'll get rid of Riptides because they're just silly and won't be missed. Hammerheads are Fire Prisms, Devilfishes are Wave Serpents, Broadside Battlesuits are Wraithlords. Ethereals are Farseers, Fireblades are Autarchs, and so on and so forth.

Tau are a nonentity competetively compared to Eldar anyway, so I'm sure all the Tau players would enjoy their new options.

This just about sums up my opinion aswell.

The irony is, you'd think players were sick of having parts of their army squatted.
On this thread there are players asking for more squatting......... naturally for armies they do not have though lol.

As for multi meltas, I will state (and clearly state) piss off.
My salamanders are packed with them.
I'm not chopping up yet more models to swap weapons because they changed them (again)

So what's next from that? We just take them out of 40k completely?
Sorry sisters, guard, etc, but they are gone now.
In the year 40k they forgot how to make them and some sneaky git stole the remaining ones.

**Melissia**

Mr Morden wrote:
So list the actual rules difference for the four units?

Try actually reading the post above. Because I did. Grey Hunters get a reroll on charge rolls of 1, and their access to chainswords gives them an extra attack, but in exchange for these assault-oriented boosts, they don't get to use heavy weapons. With the changes you made, they would lose the charge reroll (which is not a "chapter tactic", but rather a rule specific to Grey Hunters) but gain heavy weapons. Realistically, this means most SW players will find their tacticals-equivalents will become worse at successfully making charges with the changes you want to make.

**Blastaar**

Consolidating marine codices is not a bad idea, on its face. So long as unique units remain, and non-vanilla chapters keep their own army list and/or FOC one book would be fine by me. The one issue, I think is that a single marine codex wherein Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Grey Knights and so forth exist would probably be large, heavy, and horrifically expensive. I have no desire to pay for rules I will not use, and suspect most think the same.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Wait, Grey Hunters get rerolls to charge distance innately?

**Melissia**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Wait, Grey Hunters get rerolls to charge distance innately?

Charge rolls of 1, yes. So that means they have a remarkably low chance of rolling an end result 1 on the charge, which is pretty valuable.

**BrianDavion**

Mr Morden wrote:
TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Morden,

Do you think that GW would keep putting resources into things that were not profitable? Dark Angels, Blood Angels and a space Wolves appear to have enough enduring distinctiveness and popularity to warrant their continued support as their own "factions." At the end of the day, I think what the community wants is more important than what one individual wants.

Do you think that a Codex Iron Hands would be distinct enough from the Space Marines Codex and popular enough to be successful? Go write one. Pitch it to GW. What we are seeing now is White Dwarf treatment of other Chapters - that is awesome.

The additional Marine codexes do use resources that I suppose could be devoted to make an additional Eldar or Tyranid Codex, or perhaps a whole new faction. I argue that the return on investment for the DA, BA and SW is better. It's not the same level of effort as a new force, and there is a good market for the modest investment for a DA Codex and line. The DA have a different structure that give three baseline army styles and a number of distinct units for a modest number of unique sculpts and boxes.

We have had a slew of Codexes since 8th dropped. The distinct Marine codexes do not seem to have stopped the other factions getting their due. Look at the rich GSC Codex and line. Vigilus shows that GW is spreading some love around to the various factions and indeed Chapters.

Cheers

And we have heard nothing but constant complaints from Marine players since the start of 8th edition.

My (insert sub faction) Marine dex is not out yet,
My (insert sub faction) Marine dex is out but too weak,
My (insert sub faction) Marine dex is after another faction when the other half dozen Marine dexes are alreayd out.
My (insert sub faction) Marine dex only gets X models (when other factions get none is a particular gem)

How exactly do you argue that the investment is better if its Never been tested? what kind of logic is that?

Now we are finally getting other Main factions releases - but ony after a river of the same old Marine dexes, clogging up the schedule with a few minor rules variants.

How many new or non Marine sub faction Dexes have been given a chance - none.

dude, we've heard EVERYONE make that complaint. I can't think of a single codex that hasn't seen that complaint.

except the models complaint which I'll note generally players of all space marine armies are, largely, pretty happy with the models we've received. the whining about a lack of models mostly seems to come from players of other armies. partiucklarly I find Xenos players are bad that way. Ork players for example complained that they ONLY got what was it 3? 4? new vehicle kits.

**Melissia**

I lost track of how long I've been complaining about a lack of new Sisters minis. At least a decade, to be sure.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Galas wrote:
Slayer-fan people would take you more seriously if you didn't said absurd things like that.

And as others people have said the Dark Angel flyer have been nerfed 3 times (And one of those nerfs reverted) because they where that good.

And, they are like, the best looking Imperial Flyers alongside the Valkyrie and the Corvus Blackstar so if some space marine flyers is deserve of staying are the DA ones and not the ugly vanilla marines ones.

They weren't that good. They were simply worse Stormravens, and are the defunct choice in a codex with a lot of bad choices.

They're not topping for a reason, and that's because they're priced similarly to the other fliers, and those ones can be buffed by Roboute. Topping once doesn't say something is any good. Rubric Marines topped in 6th before after all, but we aren't defending them for a reason.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:
Tac Marine Squad and Grey Hunter squad
Grey Hunter Squads give up heavy weapons for mobility and close combat punch.

Mr Morden wrote:
Terminator Sqaud and Deathwatch Squad.
Are... are you joking?

You really can't tell the difference between these two?

Do... do you even play 40k?

You and I both know they meant Deathwing.

And the differences are minimal. Nobody is going to take a Deathwing squad with 1 Chainfist, 1 TH/SS, 1 Twin LC, 1 Assault Cannon, and the standard Power Sword Sergeant because it's stupid. You load them up for a particular task, which is, surprisesurprise, the Tactical and Assault entries!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:
I lost track of how long I've been complaining about a lack of new Sisters minis. At least a decade, to be sure.

You've got till the end of the year to keep complaining at least.

What are Sisters players gonna do after that? Who will replace them and CSM players for complaints about models?

**Jackal90**

Melissia wrote:
I lost track of how long I've been complaining about a lack of new Sisters minis. At least a decade, to be sure.

The wait is nearing an end, at long damn last.
But hey, you got the saint, a witch hunter and the old codex art model.
If you include the saints 2 guards, that's a whole 5 new models in that decade!

**Slayer-Fan123**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
We should scrap Tau. They're just another shooty army anyway. Fire Warriors are Guardians, Battle Suits are Wraithguard, Stormsurges are Wraithknights and we'll get rid of Riptides because they're just silly and won't be missed. Hammerheads are Fire Prisms, Devilfishes are Wave Serpents, Broadside Battlesuits are Wraithlords. Ethereals are Farseers, Fireblades are Autarchs, and so on and so forth.

Tau are a nonentity competetively compared to Eldar anyway, so I'm sure all the Tau players would enjoy their new options.

Yeah, name all the entries the Angels have outside Characters that are SOOOOO unique and you'd realize how silly this post is.

**Melissia**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
What are Sisters players gonna do after that? Who will replace them and CSM players for complaints about models?

Eldar and Orks still need minis or have ancient minis.

**BaconCatBug**

Melissia wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Wait, Grey Hunters get rerolls to charge distance innately?

Charge rolls of 1, yes. So that means they have a remarkably low chance of rolling an end result 1 on the charge, which is pretty valuable.

I mean, technically everyone (outside of terrain effects) has the same low chance of getting a result of 1 when charging, that being 0%

**Slayer-Fan123**

Melissia wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
What are Sisters players gonna do after that? Who will replace them and CSM players for complaints about models?
Eldar and Orks still need minis or have ancient minis.

I'm on board for updated Aspects to be fair. It wouldn't be hard to do a dual kit for some of them.