Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Jackal90 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
We should scrap Tau. They're just another shooty army anyway. Fire Warriors are Guardians, Battle Suits are Wraithguard, Stormsurges are Wraithknights and we'll get rid of Riptides because they're just silly and won't be missed. Hammerheads are Fire Prisms, Devilfishes are Wave Serpents, Broadside Battlesuits are Wraithlords. Ethereals are Farseers, Fireblades are Autarchs, and so on and so forth.

Tau are a nonentity competetively compared to Eldar anyway, so I'm sure all the Tau players would enjoy their new options.

This just about sums up my opinion aswell.

The irony is, you'd think players were sick of having parts of their army squatted.
On this thread there are players asking for more squatting......... naturally for armies they do not have though lol.







As for multi meltas, I will state (and clearly state) piss off.
My salamanders are packed with them.
I'm not chopping up yet more models to swap weapons because they changed them (again)

So what's next from that? We just take them out of 40k completely?
Sorry sisters, guard, etc, but they are gone now.
In the year 40k they forgot how to make them and some sneaky git stole the remaining ones.

Not my fault you make bad choices.

It's a useless weapon for basically all Infantry units, so nobody is going to cry. Pretend it's something useful instead.

You need to get over yourself mate. You dont get to decide what other people like.

72Canadian72 772776 10380378 wrote:

You need to get over yourself mate. You dont get to decide what other people like.

the whole history of men kind is people telling others to do stuff they do not want to. Telling someone to not do it, is like asking them to stop breathing.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
[snipped for six]

You may wish to check your math. One in six is not zero.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Jackal90 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
We should scrap Tau. They're just another shooty army anyway. Fire Warriors are Guardians, Battle Suits are Wraithguard, Stormsurges are Wraithknights and we'll get rid of Riptides because they're just silly and won't be missed. Hammerheads are Fire Prisms, Devilfishes are Wave Serpents, Broadside Battlesuits are Wraithlords. Ethereals are Farseers, Fireblades are Autarchs, and so on and so forth.

Tau are a nonentity competetively compared to Eldar anyway, so I'm sure all the Tau players would enjoy their new options.

This just about sums up my opinion aswell.

The irony is, you'd think players were sick of having parts of their army squatted.
On this thread there are players asking for more squatting......... naturally for armies they do not have though lol.







As for multi meltas, I will state (and clearly state) piss off.
My salamanders are packed with them.
I'm not chopping up yet more models to swap weapons because they changed them (again)

So what's next from that? We just take them out of 40k completely?
Sorry sisters, guard, etc, but they are gone now.
In the year 40k they forgot how to make them and some sneaky git stole the remaining ones.

Not my fault you make bad choices.

It's a useless weapon for basically all Infantry units, so nobody is going to cry. Pretend it's something useful instead.

Forgive me.
I couldn't see 6 years into the future and predict how they would change it.

I'm still struggling to take you seriously though, the entire post just screams "I'm bored, someone argue with me"

 Melissia wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Index: Imperium 1 was a miserable experience though.

Yeah, it was pretty tragic. Even Codex: Space Marines, that so many people whine about being weak these days, was flat out superior to any of the Index books, both in terms of unit strength AND in terms of customization.

In order to sell people on a consolidated codex you'd need something far superior to the Index books. "Look guys, I'm going to take away half of all of your options and make every faction play like ultramarines. What, doesn't this excite you?" would just make me go back to playing Orks and Sisters.

I still use my index. I feel that Space marines are already overflowing with options, and if the generic options can’t keep you interested, it’s likely that throwing even more isn’t going to make things any better.

 Melissia wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
[snipped for six]

You may wish to check your math. One in six is not zero.

"Charge rolls of 1, yes. So that means they have a remarkably low chance of rolling an end result 1 on the charge, which is pretty valuable."

An "end result" of 1 on 2D6 is a 0% chance.

On a 2d6 you have 11 potential end results (1-1, 1-2, 1-3, 1-4, 1-5, 1-6, 2-1, 3-1, 4-1, 5-1, 6-1) where you roll a one on one of those two dice.

 Stormonu wrote:
I still use my index.

And?

 Stormonu wrote:
if the generic options can’t keep you interested, it’s likely that throwing even more isn’t going to make things any better.

You're vastly outnumbered in this thread by people who disagree with that view. Perhaps you don't understand the appeal, but that doesn't mean there isn't one.

 Melissia wrote:
On a 2d6 you have 11 potential end results (1-1, 1-2, 1-3, 1-4, 1-5, 1-6, 2-1, 3-1, 4-1, 5-1, 6-1) where you roll a one on one of those two dice.

You are trolling, right?

You do get that the joke is that it's impossible to roll a 1 inch charge on 2d6, right? Right?

 Melissia wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
What are Sisters players gonna do after that? Who will replace them and CSM players for complaints about models?

Eldar and Orks still need minis or have ancient minis.

Militarum Tempestus needs a solo codex.

 Melissia wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
So list the actual rules difference for the four units?

Try actually reading the post above. Because I did. Grey Hunters get a reroll on charge rolls of 1, and their access to chainswords gives them an extra attack, but in exchange for these assault-oriented boosts, they don't get to use heavy weapons. With the changes you made, they would lose the charge reroll (which is not a "chapter tactic", but rather a rule specific to Grey Hunters) but gain heavy weapons. Realistically, this means most SW players will find their tacticals-equivalents will become worse at successfully making charges with the changes you want to make.

Yes I read it but it was not very specific - and I gave up getting the SW codex after 6th, disliking the new models and lack of new/intersting fluff

ok so you add that as an option - whats the problem?

What are Sisters players gonna do after that? Who will replace them and CSM players for complaints about models?

Read any thread - Marine Players are the biggest complainers.

You need to get over yourself mate. You dont get to decide what other people like.

Pot, kettle.....

 Mr Morden wrote:

How many new or non Marine sub faction Dexes have been given a chance - none.

Codex: GSC might be considered a subfaction. Codex: Daemons split out from CSM back in 5th? Codex: Catachans back in 3rd ed. In 4th there was a trial Feral Orks list and Kroot army list.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

How many new or non Marine sub faction Dexes have been given a chance - none.

Codex: GSC might be considered a subfaction. Codex: Daemons split out from CSM back in 5th? Codex: Catachans back in 3rd ed. In 4th there was a trial Feral Orks list and Kroot army list.

HOW is GSC a subfaction?? If thats the case then Marines are a Subfaction of Imperium and the indivudal Chapters a mere Sub-Sub faction - with huge bloated ranges and own Dexes.....

I have those dexes but I was really talking about this edition - replying to another.

 Mr Morden wrote:

You need to get over yourself mate. You dont get to decide what other people like.

Pot, kettle.....

I'm not the one making the argument that other people should lose their armies and units because I dont like them or think they are good/unique enough. But nice try though.

 Mr Morden wrote:

You need to get over yourself mate. You dont get to decide what other people like.

Pot, kettle.....

That argument makes no sense. Where is anyone that's not on your side of the argument telling you that you won't miss something because no one uses it anyway?

Also, for what it's worth the complaining about Marine players complaining is probably one of the oldest tropes of 40k.

 Mr Morden wrote:
HOW is GSC a subfaction??

They're a subfaction in that they're a spin-off of the genestealer unit from the Tyranid Codex. They're a subfaction in the same way Kroot Mercenaries are a subfaction of the Tau Empire. While Marines and Guard are a part of the same Imperium of Man overfaction, neither one is a spinoff of the other.

Quasistellar wrote:
the joke

Jokes are meant to be funny, BCB's post was not. Thus, my response.

72Canadian72 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

You need to get over yourself mate. You dont get to decide what other people like.

Pot, kettle.....

I'm not the one making the argument that other people should lose their armies and units because I dont like them or think they are good/unique enough. But nice try though.

Nor am I - but that strawman is getting awfully high - As i have said repeatedly I want to increase options for all Chapters that have previosuly been ignored in favour of 3 chapters but you seem to be so obsessed and defensive about your own super special chapter that you are incapble of reading and comprehending.

No one would loose anything - but I guess other people having nice things is less important than focussing on your army.... sad really - very sad.

Also, for what it's worth the complaining about Marine players complaining is probably one of the oldest tropes of 40k.

Marine player myself - but i recoognise that other factions deserve nice things......

They're a subfaction in that they're a spin-off of the genestealer unit from the Tyranid Codex. They're a subfaction in the same way Kroot Mercenaries are a subfaction of the Tau Empire. While Marines and Guard are a part of the same Imperium of Man overfaction, neither one is a spinoff of the other.

Either the Imperium of Man is a Faction - Marines/Gaurd/Ad Mech/Sisters are therefore "Human" subfactions and then Chapters are sub sub factions OR
The Tyranids are a Overfaction and GSC are a Faction.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Either the Imperium of Man is a Faction

False dichotomy, there are other ways to rationalize the decision, as clearly GW itself has. Nothing you said contradicted anything in my post for the reasons why GW considers them a subfaction of Tyranids.

 Mr Morden wrote:

72Canadian72 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

You need to get over yourself mate. You dont get to decide what other people like.

Pot, kettle.....

I'm not the one making the argument that other people should lose their armies and units because I dont like them or think they are good/unique enough. But nice try though.

Nor am I - but that strawman is getting awfully high - As i have said repeatedly I want to increase options for all Chapters that have previosuly been ignored in favour of 3 chapters but you seem to be so obsessed and defensive about your own super special chapter that you are incapble of reading and comprehending.

No one would loose anything - but I guess other people having nice things is less important than focussing on your army.... sad really - very sad.

The person I was responding to with that statement was literally talking about removing models like the Dark Talon or multi meltas from Salamanders tac marines just because they weren't competitive enough and thus in their eyes no one would care, even after being told repeatedly that players enjoy playing with it, regardless of it not being top tier meta. But ya thanks for insulting my reading comprehension by thinking my statement was in any way directed at yourself.

Edit: Also please quote for me where I ever said I anything about wanting attention over other factions. Go ahead I can wait. I seem to recall saying multiple times I'd be perfectly happy with everyone getting access to more options, more sub factions and more codex. But I guess I was just dreaming those posts. If you are going to try and insult me, at least be accurate.

 Melissia wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Either the Imperium of Man is a Faction

False dichotomy, there are other ways to rationalize the decision, as clearly GW itself has. Nothing you said contradicted anything in my post for the reasons why GW considers them a subfaction of Tyranids.

They are listed on the store as a seperate Xenos Faction?

If you want to break them down as per keywords - than yes They are a subfaction of Nids but it makes any indivudal Chapter a sub-subfaction?

Are they not : Keywords: Tyranid - GSC
Marines are : Imperium - Astartes- Chapter




Automatically Appended Next Post:

72Canadian72 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

72Canadian72 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

You need to get over yourself mate. You dont get to decide what other people like.

Pot, kettle.....

I'm not the one making the argument that other people should lose their armies and units because I dont like them or think they are good/unique enough. But nice try though.

Nor am I - but that strawman is getting awfully high - As i have said repeatedly I want to increase options for all Chapters that have previosuly been ignored in favour of 3 chapters but you seem to be so obsessed and defensive about your own super special chapter that you are incapble of reading and comprehending.

No one would loose anything - but I guess other people having nice things is less important than focussing on your army.... sad really - very sad.

The person I was responding to with that statement was literally talking about removing models like the Dark Talon or multi meltas from Salamanders tac marines just because they weren't competitive enough and thus in their eyes no one would care, even after being told repeatedly that players enjoy playing with it, regardless of it not being top tier meta. But ya thanks for insulting my reading comprehension by thinking my statement was in any way directed at yourself.

Edit: Also please quote for me where I ever said I anything about wanting attention over other factions. Go ahead I can wait. I seem to recall saying multiple times I'd be perfectly happy with everyone getting access to more options, more sub factions and more codex. But I guess I was just dreaming those posts. If you are going to try and insult me, at least be accurate.

Its implicit in your increasingly rabid defence of Dark Angels - You have wierdly failed to grasp that having massive focuss on your particular chosen faction means less or none on others. Odd really.

Then you pretend interst in others - oh yeah you can have something - as long as my sub faction gets everything and more whilst knowing very well that a large chunk of the avaible resoruces is reserved for you.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

72Canadian72 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

72Canadian72 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

You need to get over yourself mate. You dont get to decide what other people like.

Pot, kettle.....

I'm not the one making the argument that other people should lose their armies and units because I dont like them or think they are good/unique enough. But nice try though.

Nor am I - but that strawman is getting awfully high - As i have said repeatedly I want to increase options for all Chapters that have previosuly been ignored in favour of 3 chapters but you seem to be so obsessed and defensive about your own super special chapter that you are incapble of reading and comprehending.

No one would loose anything - but I guess other people having nice things is less important than focussing on your army.... sad really - very sad.

The person I was responding to with that statement was literally talking about removing models like the Dark Talon or multi meltas from Salamanders tac marines just because they weren't competitive enough and thus in their eyes no one would care, even after being told repeatedly that players enjoy playing with it, regardless of it not being top tier meta. But ya thanks for insulting my reading comprehension by thinking my statement was in any way directed at yourself.

Edit: Also please quote for me where I ever said I anything about wanting attention over other factions. Go ahead I can wait. I seem to recall saying multiple times I'd be perfectly happy with everyone getting access to more options, more sub factions and more codex. But I guess I was just dreaming those posts. If you are going to try and insult me, at least be accurate.

Its implicit in your increasingly rabid defence of Dark Angels - You have wierdly failed to grasp that having massive focuss on your particular chosen faction means less or none on others. Odd really.

Then you pretend interst in others - oh yeah you can have something - as long as my sub faction gets everything and more whilst knowing very well that a large chunk of the avaible resoruces is reserved for you.

So my argument that investment isnt a zero sum game, means I am telling people what they are allowed to like and play? Thats some serious stretching mate. If the ROI is good enough GW can easily being expanding production to facilitate new expansions. They are not locked down with X amount of resources. They can get more, they just need sufficient incentives. The same way they expanded to have BT/SW/BA/DA/GK/DW in addition to normal SM in earlier editions.

All I've ever said is I dont want to lose my unique models because those are the models I am interested in collecting. I have consistently said I am looking forward to other lines expanding with new models and getting more support because, the more variety and flavour, the better in my view.

And rabid really? Im not the one laying down the insults.

But yes, I am the one being self centered and acting to the detriment of others. Please forgive me for having the gall to play Dark angels and funding GW with my purchases. I clearly do more harm than good, it would be better had I never started collecting in the first place. Yep yep.

 Mr Morden wrote:
They are listed on the store as a seperate Xenos Faction?

The store also lists "Space Marines" as separate from "Blood Angels". If you want to use the store's definitions, one would argue that the factions are "Imperium", "Xeno", and "Chaos", and everything else is a subfaction of those three categories. That may actually be how GW sees it, truth be told, but I doubt many others see it that way.

You're putting forth an argument that the way you define it is the only way it can be defined, but I'm under no obligation to agree with you. You're really bad at this logic thing.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Marine player myself - but i recoognise that other factions deserve nice things......

Here's a thought that might blow your mind: other factions can get nice things without your crusade against things you don't like. We're getting more subfactions than we've ever had in 8th edition and it's awesome. Note how this has been achieved without cutting back on the Marine Codices.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Marine player myself - but i recoognise that other factions deserve nice things......

Here's a thought that might blow your mind: other factions can get nice things without your crusade against things you don't like. We're getting more subfactions than we've ever had in 8th edition and it's awesome. Note how this has been achieved without cutting back on the Marine Codices.

Except those subfactions don't get random special units because of no reason and don't have things to worry about like how horribly Successor Chapters are handled, which is an issue solved via consolidation.

At the risk of fething over everyone who plays a variant army.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
At the risk of fething over everyone who plays a variant army.

What's fethed over via consolidation that I haven't already tackled? You for sure already lost the Black Templar argument.

Sucessors chapter is a problem of GW own making. Everybody I know, when playing with a successor chapter just use the base rules of the parent chapters. Not all of this nonsense of "If you are a DA successor you can't have chapter master, any special character, and you only have 1 relic. In exchange, you win: Absolutely nothing. Next time use the official paint scheme, jackass!"

 Galas wrote:
Sucessors chapter is a problem of GW own making. Everybody I know, when playing with a successor chapter just use the base rules of the parent chapters. Not all of this nonsense of "If you are a DA successor you can't have chapter master, any special character, and you only have 1 relic. In exchange, you win: Absolutely nothing. Next time use the official paint scheme, jackass!"

For as badly written as 7th was, this was never an issue at least.

 Galas wrote:
Sucessors chapter is a problem of GW own making. Everybody I know, when playing with a successor chapter just use the base rules of the parent chapters. Not all of this nonsense of "If you are a DA successor you can't have chapter master, any special character, and you only have 1 relic. In exchange, you win: Absolutely nothing. Next time use the official paint scheme, jackass!"

We should get custom chapter building rules. Scratch, custom chapter, regiment, etc.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Marine player myself - but i recoognise that other factions deserve nice things......

Here's a thought that might blow your mind: other factions can get nice things without your crusade against things you don't like. We're getting more subfactions than we've ever had in 8th edition and it's awesome. Note how this has been achieved without cutting back on the Marine Codices.

Yeah Morden seems to keep chewing this bone that Marine stuff is taking away from other factions. but thats not the case. fact is Marine sales, IMHO likely FUND GW trying new things. GW is expected to make X amount of dollars per year. Marines are something that makes profit, GW knows this, if they release Y number of space marine releases, they can make at least X dollars and take a risk on something that may not be a garenteed hit

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
At the risk of fething over everyone who plays a variant army.

What's fethed over via consolidation that I haven't already tackled? You for sure already lost the Black Templar argument.

You never adressed the loss of design space argument. Having a dedicated Codex to a specific subfaction with a specific playstyle means you can make that playstyle more coherent without having to worry about what knockoff effects it will have on other subfactions. I'm not opposed to adding a bunch of options to the Vanilla Codex (most blatantly the wargear options, but also stuff like specialist Terminators and Jump Pack Honour Guard and the like) but the advantage of having separate books is that you can make them more divergent in order to promote a different playstyle in a way that you're not going to replicate with just Chapter Tactics.

Using the Black Templars 4th edition Codex as an example, just porting over Righteous Zeal and the Vows as Chapter Tactic to a Vanilla Codex would make that Chapter Tactic massive compared to all the others, so what happens in practice is that the stuff you're porting gets cut down, because you now need to squeeze it in with a bunch of other stuff.

It is entirely possible to do what you are describing in a workable manner. I just don't trust GW to do it, and thus would rather they left people's armies alone.

Also, not agreeing with someone isn't the same as winning an argument.

EDIT: And successor Chapters is easily solvable by GW simply letting successors use the same stuff as the primogenitor Chapter, the way pretty much everyone (that I know of at least) already plays the game.