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So, there was a time, albeit with its own problems, where Space Marines and all the other factions did not have any 'Chapter Traits'. No Regiments, no Legions, no Craftworlds. There were no stratagems, no warlord traits, no relics.

What you picked out of your book was what it was on the tin, with its set number of universal special rules and that was it.

In my mind, one of the flaws of 8th edition is that the current slew of 'Chapter Traits' are not internally, nor externally balanced. Relics and Warlord traits tend to go the same way: There is always a handful that stand out above the rest. Why? Because we, as the player base and community, know how the game works. We know that a 6+ FNP (Iron Hands) isn't as valuable as re-rolling one shot out of every unit that fires (Salamanders). We know that a -1 Leadership Aura (Night Lords) is trash compared to +1 to attacks on the charge (World Eaters). It doesn't take us long to figure it out. There's a simple efficiency that's always been a part of 40k. This stretches to every aspect of the game. Some models simply are better than others. The model that's on top tends to change with editions, updates, FAQ's, and such...

but with previous editions, you could run a Space Marine Drop Pod army and face a Space Marine Biker army and have a good time. There were no formations, no traits that either side got over each other, it all came down to the strategy that they played.

Now? If you don't run your Space Marines with X chapter tactic and Y warlord trait and Z relic, are you even human? Even casual players will harp on other casual players about the choices they make in a list.

by stripping away things like relics, warlord traits, and chapter tactics, you encourage two things:
A. Customizing your army the way you want
B. making it easier to internally balance each codex

Think about it. Think about all the Night Lords players that know that, as things stand, they will always be inferior rules-wise to Alpha Legion or World Eaters.

If Alpha Legion and World Eaters didn't have superior rules, then they, and the Night Lords, would all be on the same playing field, bar the unit choices that they take in their lists. It would be a step in the right direction, as far as I'm concerned.

What do you think? Would you prefer there WEREN'T rules for every little thing so that you could have more variety without feeling shoehorned into a particular army or playstyle?

I'd prefer GW puts in the effort to make them balanced.

They're the number one richest Wargaming company-they can afford to hire good game designers.

Also, I think you might have some rose-tinted lenses on. While I didn't start 40k till late 6th/early 7th, I find it very unlikely that a Pod army was equal to a Bike army consistently before Chapter Tactics became a thing. And once you start to include non-Marine armies, I'd imagine it gets even worse in disparities.

Yep. 40k has massive problems with rules bloat, and part of the problem is people believing that if something doesn't have special snowflake rules representing it on the table then it doesn't exist.

drbored wrote:
So, there was a time, albeit with its own problems, where Space Marines and all the other factions did not have any 'Chapter Traits'. No Regiments, no Legions, no Craftworlds. There were no stratagems, no warlord traits, no relics.

What you picked out of your book was what it was on the tin, with its set number of universal special rules and that was it.

Yeah, those days didn't last very long.
The Orks pretty promptly got a pair of books, Chaos gained access to not one, but two text book sized volumes of crazy, & then to cap it off the original SW list came along in the pages of WD & let Wolves do all manner of chapter unique shenanigans.....
And I'm sure I've neglected to remember WD articles for every other faction/Special Characters.

Then we were onto the 2e days & it's been escalating ever since.

The right way is not to take away faction rules and make all armies the same, it's give everything appropriate points (or CP costs). Relics, Warlord traits, psychic powers, faction tactics, everything has to have a price.

That being said I wouldn't mind if some weapon options were streamlined again, like powerweapons were mostly the same in earlier editions, the game is too large to make a difference between a maul and an axe.

Agreed. Though that short, sweet spot when third came out was refreshing.

 Peregrine wrote:
Yep. 40k has massive problems with rules bloat, and part of the problem is people believing that if something doesn't have special snowflake rules representing it on the table then it doesn't exist.

100% agreed. There are too many layers of rules. The indexes were a good level of complexity (give or take).

Umbros wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Yep. 40k has massive problems with rules bloat, and part of the problem is people believing that if something doesn't have special snowflake rules representing it on the table then it doesn't exist.

100% agreed. There are too many layers of rules. The indexes were a good level of complexity (give or take).

I don't know if it's really the player community that wants special rules everywhere. For sure, when GW releases a new kit, they want the unit to have a unique ability. This creates bloat, and either boring redundancy (yet another reroll) or some very useless of overpowered rule, because there are so many new things you can come up with.
In any case, people are used to it now. An elite unit that has +1A +1ld and access to a power weapon on the sarge doesn't feel special anymore.

But it's also because the game has changed over the years (at least my personal exposure to it). The main focus used to be on modelling/building your army. So the guy who painted his kabalite trueborns with a lot of flare, and converted a sarge to have a cool pose and nice weapon really made the unit pop, even if the rules were nothing extravagant.
Now there's a huge focus on rules. Most of the talks about the new releases is about the rules, and we actively seek out leaks before trying to think of a cool paint scheme. The modelling front is also heavily impacted by very skilled painters. We get a constant feed of insanely well painted minis, many of which are single pieces/small units, a lot less are actual armies. So it's harder to make units stand out from a modelling point of view, when a 10s search on google gives you hundreds of pictures of better-painted minis.
GW actually does a good thing on that front, when they showcase full armies with a lot of character, across most of their media. But still, most of what we see there is on a level most of us don't even dream of reaching, whereas we can all try to make lists that take advantage of a special rule.

I find the clan kultures/ chapter tactics/ hive fleets etc. strangely oppressive as well... both in terms of what I'm painting and what I'm playing!

I thought that having unique traits for different clans would be great, but actually it just added extra rules bumf for no increase in fun. Live and learn I guess!

Get rid of them to allow actually armies that follow fluff. As it is those shoehorn armies into unfluffy armies like all bike white scars, evil suns that don't have fast vehicles, snakebite vehicle spams etc.

And is pain in the ass for those who enjoy chapter/regiment/klan colour scheme and fluff and then gets screwed by silly rules that don't work for the fluff at all but would work fine for other chapter/regiment/klan/whatever's fluff...

I gotta disagree. Chapter traits allow you to change the feel of your army on the tabletop and switch your emphasis from one aspect of that army to the other. If some are imbalanced compared to the rest, they should be adjusted accordingly. At the core army traits aren't cancerous to the game like formations were, they're an interesting package of extra goodies that allows you to customize your force to be the way you want.

Honestly, the biggest problem with them is locking them into paint schemes, meaning people with existing schemes are locked in (or feel they are locked in) to one over another.

I know for me, my speed freeks always feel more like the band of mad max nutbags I want them to be when I run them as Freebootas than when I run thm as evil sunz. I don't want the game to be over in 2 turns, the trait where we kill something and all the other orks around scream "WITNEEEEESS" is a better portrayal of a marauding band of mechanized hooligans.

I wish more people felt the same. If you have an elite detachment of space marines with relic weapons and you like how Salamanders feels, I don't care if you originally painted them as ultramarines.

It's fine to have three flavors of Haemonculus coven, one focused on fear, the other on durability, and the other on damage. The problem only arises when the one focused on durability is hideously powerful compared to the other two. The solution there isn't to throw the baby out with the bathwater, it's to tweak the ability: maybe instead of +1 to invuln saves, it grants a reroll to the "inured to pain" 6+ FNP save. Or maybe even at the beginning of the coven player's turn, all wounded models regenerate 1 wound (which would feel cooler, but be much less useful overall)

Well the GK codex doesn't have relics, its chapter tactic may as well not exist and the stratagams are limited to one, you will use and two other that are super specific and situational. Units don't have special rules and gear is the same on multiple units. I don't think it helps GK being better. in fact it kills a ton of options. I mean what is the sense of having a normal NDK, with weaker rules and almost exact same cost as a GM NDK ? Same with termintors and paladins. Strikes and purificators. Purificators and purgators.

I think that if GW cut off all extra rules two things would happen. They wouldnt cut rules from everything, and that stuff would be a tier higher then everything else. And the second thing after 6-12 months they would start puting books with extra rules, and we would have lottery again. Those with good extra rules would have it great, those with bad extra rules would feel bad and those waiting for X years to get extra rules would just hate everyone else.

But maybe it would be better, what is now. I don't know. although I don't think that a full removal of extra rule somehow is a magical fix to w40k.

Speaking as someone with armies that rely on Artefacts for customisation, because basically everything else has been stripped away, you'll forgive me if I'm opposed to this idea.

The way to keep them and balance them would be to release a codex for each klan or faction, and then an unaligned codex for people to make their own minds up. Then you can cost the units accordingly for the chapter trait or whatever which affects them.

It would allow for a much greater level of specialist abilities and wargear, like trukkboys being able to hop out of moving trukks if they're speed freeks (and lose some guys in the process).

Then you can have the main leaders who unite klans like abbaddon and ghazzie as a points-tax to mix and match your units.

Honestly, I think the uhh... was it 5th edition Marine book had the best way, where you picked traits and a flaw for your chapter, with the existing ones having it predetermined.

But yeah I agree there is too much bloat and too many "this has to be different" while not having the correct amount of time put into developing that properly.

Again? "As this 10 options aren't as balanced as they could be, the best thing is to remove everything instead of fixing it."

I can't even... meh.

The only thing I can pseudo agree is to change the chapter/regiment/etc... tactics to be generic.

Change the Ultramarine Chapter Tactic to be "Tactical Experts", and the Salamander one to be "Great Artisans", etc... and then you make suggestion like "Ultramarines armies tend to follow doctrines reflected in the Tactical Experts tactic, and as such, thats the official chapter tactic the Ultramarines follow" (But even then, I would oppen even official chapters with special characters to just chose wichever tactic they want. Is not like GW balances special characters with the Chapter rules of his chapter in mind). Just with that change people would fell much less "oppresed" by rules that they felt don't work with how they think theyr army should play.


One of the reasons I loved Fantasy was because the ammount of customization you could do with things like Magic Items, Magic Banners, and Magic. Relics and 8th magic are a small part of that, and I love them. Strip all of that again and meh. To play Index 40k I would go and play a Mantic game.

And I like the system of chosing your own regimental bonuts or chapter tactics. Of course with that people would find the most powerfull combos and 80% of the players would spam those, but I don't know. The most recent example of that are the Kharadron Overlords Doctrines. You have 6 fixed Doctrines for the biggest Kharadron Ports, that come with one extra 1 use power. But then you can mix and max freely from a couple of tables to make your own customiced code.

Relics is actually a simple fix: they simply need to make them cost points again.

I also do think GW did the right thing with a table of a few generic traits and then a singular Chapter specific trait to help balance out Special Characters and somewhat keeping flavor. However, if the codex has that many different Army Traits to choose from, it should be considered to remove the Chapter specific ones outside for Special Characters, who already get benefits for being snowflakes. Then you can focus on the generic ones to be more powerful as necessary.

 Galas wrote:
Again? "As this 10 options aren't as balanced as they could be, the best thing is to remove everything instead of fixing it."

I can't even... meh.

Yeah, I'm really not a fan of 'these options aren't perfectly balanced so we should scrap them altogether'.

 Galas wrote:

The only thing I can pseudo agree is to change the chapter/regiment/etc... tactics to be generic.

Change the Ultramarine Chapter Tactic to be "Tactical Experts", and the Salamander one to be "Great Artisans", etc... and then you make suggestion like "Ultramarines armies tend to follow doctrines reflected in the Tactical Experts tactic, and as such, thats the official chapter tactic the Ultramarines follow" (But even then, I would oppen even official chapters with special characters to just chose wichever tactic they want. Is not like GW balances special characters with the Chapter rules of his chapter in mind). Just with that change people would fell much less "oppresed" by rules that they felt don't work with how they think theyr army should play.

I'd be fine with that. However, I honestly don't find the current chapter tactic rules to be remotely oppressive.

Then again, maybe it's because I play with people who couldn't care less if an army's paint scheme doesn't match its chapter tactic.

 Galas wrote:

One of the reasons I loved Fantasy was because the ammount of customization you could do with things like Magic Items, Magic Banners, and Magic. Relics and 8th magic are a small part of that, and I love them. Strip all of that again and meh. To play Index 40k I would go and play a Mantic game.

Same. I really miss Fantasy's customisation.

Regarding 40k, one issue is that a great deal of customisation has already been stripped away - with many items of wargear being turned into relics or stratagems, or simply being removed altogether.

IMO, the absolute last thing the game needs right now is even less customisation.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Relics is actually a simple fix: they simply need to make them cost points again.

Completely agree.

drbored wrote:

but with previous editions, you could run a Space Marine Drop Pod army and face a Space Marine Biker army and have a good time. There were no formations, no traits that either side got over each other, it all came down to the strategy that they played.

It feels naive to think that removing all the layers to the game is going to result in better balance or more fun from a GW product. Games Workshop has historically been bad with game balance and 8th has a slight bit of balance only due to GW gutting all the complexity from the game. The launch of 8th with only index armies and that AoS inspired core rulebook created a game that had the depth and flavor of a saucer plate of water. Without slopping on faction tactics and stratagems, 8th is a box of saltines in tabletop gaming form.

Units like terminators have been bad for multiple editions and that is before formations or chapter tactics existed in standard 40k. Looking at 7th they had some formations that actually did help make some "unplayable" units potentially viable but unfortunately when GW was pumping out formations to most armies, they also ended up doing some idiotic things like make Riptide Wing or the entire Craftworld Eldar codex a thing which really screwed up balance and made some of the really flavorful formations ignorable because they can't hold a candle to some of the far more potent formations (the opportunity cost balance issue). I hate how GW has done its rules stacking for 8th but stripping the game down even more without a massive core rules rebuild will just revert the game back to saltine mode. (IMO they should take the core rule depth of 4th through 7th but written in a more clear mechanics focused writing style and keep the focus on actually fixing the rules like they are doing with 8th). Have a solid core foundation with depth, mechanics, and gameplay built in so then when you break out the codexes you can let the core rules give you lots of variety in how the units operate (one of the great things about USRs) while sprinkling in some of that flavor with some codex specific mechanics (see 6th/early 7th edition faction mechanics) and faction tactics, relics, warlord traits, etc without having to resort to garbage like blanket -1 to hit nonsense. The biggest thing is to have the scope of desired impact for faction tactics, warlord traits, relics, etc figured out when writing the core rules of the game so you don't have certain ones bending the game to an almost broken state. 8th suffers from having the core rules being so bare bones and then realizing that they need to have the codex make the game interesting so you end up with stuff that really screws up the game (stacking minus to hit) or is so inconsequential that it doesn't really matter (-1 to leadership as exampled in OP's post).

Yeah, if games workshop made a boxed game where the mechanic was two players flip a coin and whatever player got more heads won, it would cost 900$, come with 6 different rulebooks and 12 FAQs, and one of the coins would have heads on both sides.

Karol wrote:
Well the GK codex doesn't have relics, its chapter tactic may as well not exist and the stratagams are limited to one, you will use and two other that are super specific and situational. Units don't have special rules and gear is the same on multiple units. I don't think it helps GK being better. in fact it kills a ton of options. I mean what is the sense of having a normal NDK, with weaker rules and almost exact same cost as a GM NDK ? Same with termintors and paladins. Strikes and purificators. Purificators and purgators.

I think that if GW cut off all extra rules two things would happen. They wouldnt cut rules from everything, and that stuff would be a tier higher then everything else. And the second thing after 6-12 months they would start puting books with extra rules, and we would have lottery again. Those with good extra rules would have it great, those with bad extra rules would feel bad and those waiting for X years to get extra rules would just hate everyone else.

But maybe it would be better, what is now. I don't know. although I don't think that a full removal of extra rule somehow is a magical fix to w40k.

Grey knights do have relics? They have six of them, a better set of armor, a better hMmer, and a banner. Whether they are great or not is irrelevant. They have them and to say they haven't is a bold faced lie. It's clear you aren't happy with your Grey Knights, you spam every thread with this. Please, please stop. Find yourself a hobby you can enjoy.

Pleasestop wrote:

Karol wrote:
Well the GK codex doesn't have relics, its chapter tactic may as well not exist and the stratagams are limited to one, you will use and two other that are super specific and situational. Units don't have special rules and gear is the same on multiple units. I don't think it helps GK being better. in fact it kills a ton of options. I mean what is the sense of having a normal NDK, with weaker rules and almost exact same cost as a GM NDK ? Same with termintors and paladins. Strikes and purificators. Purificators and purgators.

I think that if GW cut off all extra rules two things would happen. They wouldnt cut rules from everything, and that stuff would be a tier higher then everything else. And the second thing after 6-12 months they would start puting books with extra rules, and we would have lottery again. Those with good extra rules would have it great, those with bad extra rules would feel bad and those waiting for X years to get extra rules would just hate everyone else.

But maybe it would be better, what is now. I don't know. although I don't think that a full removal of extra rule somehow is a magical fix to w40k.

Grey knights do have relics? They have six of them, a better set of armor, a better hMmer, and a banner. Whether they are great or not is irrelevant. They have them and to say they haven't is a bold faced lie. It's clear you aren't happy with your Grey Knights, you spam every thread with this. Please, please stop. Find yourself a hobby you can enjoy.

It is relevant, GK have two HQs. A nemezis GK, who can't take relics and Draigo, who is a special character and can't take relics. And I can't find myself a different hobby, I sunk my money in to GK.

Karol wrote:

Pleasestop wrote:

Karol wrote:
Well the GK codex doesn't have relics, its chapter tactic may as well not exist and the stratagams are limited to one, you will use and two other that are super specific and situational. Units don't have special rules and gear is the same on multiple units. I don't think it helps GK being better. in fact it kills a ton of options. I mean what is the sense of having a normal NDK, with weaker rules and almost exact same cost as a GM NDK ? Same with termintors and paladins. Strikes and purificators. Purificators and purgators.

I think that if GW cut off all extra rules two things would happen. They wouldnt cut rules from everything, and that stuff would be a tier higher then everything else. And the second thing after 6-12 months they would start puting books with extra rules, and we would have lottery again. Those with good extra rules would have it great, those with bad extra rules would feel bad and those waiting for X years to get extra rules would just hate everyone else.

But maybe it would be better, what is now. I don't know. although I don't think that a full removal of extra rule somehow is a magical fix to w40k.

Grey knights do have relics? They have six of them, a better set of armor, a better hMmer, and a banner. Whether they are great or not is irrelevant. They have them and to say they haven't is a bold faced lie. It's clear you aren't happy with your Grey Knights, you spam every thread with this. Please, please stop. Find yourself a hobby you can enjoy.

It is relevant, GK have two HQs. A nemezis GK, who can't take relics and Draigo, who is a special character and can't take relics. And I can't find myself a different hobby, I sunk my money in to GK.

Grey Knights have Brother-Captain, Brotherhood Champion, Nemesis Gk, Grandmaster, Grandmaster Voldus, Kaldor Draigo , librarians, Castellan Crowe, Stern, Chaplain and a techmarine as an HQ. There are more GK HQs then there are Sororitas units!

Do you not read your codex?

Also, save your money and stop spending it on GK if you hate them so much. There are plenty of hobbies that cost no money, as well, so, look into reading, writing, etc. Or just, I dunno, paint your Marines a different color and run them as literally any other army instead of wasting yours and everyone else's time

Do you really think whinging on a forum is going to make you enjoy playing GK any more?

Pleasestop wrote:

Karol wrote:

Pleasestop wrote:

Karol wrote:
Well the GK codex doesn't have relics, its chapter tactic may as well not exist and the stratagams are limited to one, you will use and two other that are super specific and situational. Units don't have special rules and gear is the same on multiple units. I don't think it helps GK being better. in fact it kills a ton of options. I mean what is the sense of having a normal NDK, with weaker rules and almost exact same cost as a GM NDK ? Same with termintors and paladins. Strikes and purificators. Purificators and purgators.

I think that if GW cut off all extra rules two things would happen. They wouldnt cut rules from everything, and that stuff would be a tier higher then everything else. And the second thing after 6-12 months they would start puting books with extra rules, and we would have lottery again. Those with good extra rules would have it great, those with bad extra rules would feel bad and those waiting for X years to get extra rules would just hate everyone else.

But maybe it would be better, what is now. I don't know. although I don't think that a full removal of extra rule somehow is a magical fix to w40k.

Grey knights do have relics? They have six of them, a better set of armor, a better hMmer, and a banner. Whether they are great or not is irrelevant. They have them and to say they haven't is a bold faced lie. It's clear you aren't happy with your Grey Knights, you spam every thread with this. Please, please stop. Find yourself a hobby you can enjoy.

It is relevant, GK have two HQs. A nemezis GK, who can't take relics and Draigo, who is a special character and can't take relics. And I can't find myself a different hobby, I sunk my money in to GK.

Grey Knights have Brother-Captain, Brotherhood Champion, Nemesis Gk, Grandmaster, Grandmaster Voldus, Kaldor Draigo , librarians, Castellan Crowe, Stern, Chaplain and a techmarine as an HQ. There are more GK HQs then there are Sororitas units!

Do you not read your codex?

Also, save your money and stop spending it on GK if you hate them so much. There are plenty of hobbies that cost no money, as well, so, look into reading, writing, etc. Or just, I dunno, paint your Marines a different color and run them as literally any other army instead of wasting yours and everyone else's time

Do you really think whinging on a forum is going to make you enjoy playing GK any more?

I really cant understand people that disreguard HQ choices "because theyre not good" and theyre playing one of the factions with the most HQs, i play admech and we just got our 4th HQ choice. Also at this point we just gotta stop beating the "GK suck" horse and bide our time until 8.5/9th comes out or GW starts updating codexes.

fresus wrote:
The main focus used to be on modelling/building your army.

And I'm pretty sure it still is. We have a "Painting and Modeling" section on DakkaDakka separate from the main forums, if you think that somehow people don't care about their army's modeling and building and painting, I suggest you go tell them that, they'll wonder what the hell you're smoking.

It really sounds like to really get what you want, you'll have to get rid of WYSIWYG. And tournaments aren't going to do that. But why are you looking to tournament players to see if modeling is still popular to begin with?

VladimirHerzog wrote:

Pleasestop wrote:

Karol wrote:

Pleasestop wrote:

Karol wrote:
Well the GK codex doesn't have relics, its chapter tactic may as well not exist and the stratagams are limited to one, you will use and two other that are super specific and situational. Units don't have special rules and gear is the same on multiple units. I don't think it helps GK being better. in fact it kills a ton of options. I mean what is the sense of having a normal NDK, with weaker rules and almost exact same cost as a GM NDK ? Same with termintors and paladins. Strikes and purificators. Purificators and purgators.

I think that if GW cut off all extra rules two things would happen. They wouldnt cut rules from everything, and that stuff would be a tier higher then everything else. And the second thing after 6-12 months they would start puting books with extra rules, and we would have lottery again. Those with good extra rules would have it great, those with bad extra rules would feel bad and those waiting for X years to get extra rules would just hate everyone else.

But maybe it would be better, what is now. I don't know. although I don't think that a full removal of extra rule somehow is a magical fix to w40k.

Grey knights do have relics? They have six of them, a better set of armor, a better hMmer, and a banner. Whether they are great or not is irrelevant. They have them and to say they haven't is a bold faced lie. It's clear you aren't happy with your Grey Knights, you spam every thread with this. Please, please stop. Find yourself a hobby you can enjoy.

It is relevant, GK have two HQs. A nemezis GK, who can't take relics and Draigo, who is a special character and can't take relics. And I can't find myself a different hobby, I sunk my money in to GK.

Grey Knights have Brother-Captain, Brotherhood Champion, Nemesis Gk, Grandmaster, Grandmaster Voldus, Kaldor Draigo , librarians, Castellan Crowe, Stern, Chaplain and a techmarine as an HQ. There are more GK HQs then there are Sororitas units!

Do you not read your codex?

Also, save your money and stop spending it on GK if you hate them so much. There are plenty of hobbies that cost no money, as well, so, look into reading, writing, etc. Or just, I dunno, paint your Marines a different color and run them as literally any other army instead of wasting yours and everyone else's time

Do you really think whinging on a forum is going to make you enjoy playing GK any more?

I really cant understand people that disreguard HQ choices "because theyre not good" and theyre playing one of the factions with the most HQs, i play admech and we just got our 4th HQ choice. Also at this point we just gotta stop beating the "GK suck" horse and bide our time until 8.5/9th comes out or GW starts updating codexes.

And look at how bad that new HQ choice is for AdMech! It may as well not exist at all.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Spoiler:

VladimirHerzog wrote:

Pleasestop wrote:

Karol wrote:

Pleasestop wrote:

Karol wrote:
Well the GK codex doesn't have relics, its chapter tactic may as well not exist and the stratagams are limited to one, you will use and two other that are super specific and situational. Units don't have special rules and gear is the same on multiple units. I don't think it helps GK being better. in fact it kills a ton of options. I mean what is the sense of having a normal NDK, with weaker rules and almost exact same cost as a GM NDK ? Same with termintors and paladins. Strikes and purificators. Purificators and purgators.

I think that if GW cut off all extra rules two things would happen. They wouldnt cut rules from everything, and that stuff would be a tier higher then everything else. And the second thing after 6-12 months they would start puting books with extra rules, and we would have lottery again. Those with good extra rules would have it great, those with bad extra rules would feel bad and those waiting for X years to get extra rules would just hate everyone else.

But maybe it would be better, what is now. I don't know. although I don't think that a full removal of extra rule somehow is a magical fix to w40k.

Grey knights do have relics? They have six of them, a better set of armor, a better hMmer, and a banner. Whether they are great or not is irrelevant. They have them and to say they haven't is a bold faced lie. It's clear you aren't happy with your Grey Knights, you spam every thread with this. Please, please stop. Find yourself a hobby you can enjoy.

It is relevant, GK have two HQs. A nemezis GK, who can't take relics and Draigo, who is a special character and can't take relics. And I can't find myself a different hobby, I sunk my money in to GK.

Grey Knights have Brother-Captain, Brotherhood Champion, Nemesis Gk, Grandmaster, Grandmaster Voldus, Kaldor Draigo , librarians, Castellan Crowe, Stern, Chaplain and a techmarine as an HQ. There are more GK HQs then there are Sororitas units!

Do you not read your codex?

Also, save your money and stop spending it on GK if you hate them so much. There are plenty of hobbies that cost no money, as well, so, look into reading, writing, etc. Or just, I dunno, paint your Marines a different color and run them as literally any other army instead of wasting yours and everyone else's time

Do you really think whinging on a forum is going to make you enjoy playing GK any more?

I really cant understand people that disreguard HQ choices "because theyre not good" and theyre playing one of the factions with the most HQs, i play admech and we just got our 4th HQ choice. Also at this point we just gotta stop beating the "GK suck" horse and bide our time until 8.5/9th comes out or GW starts updating codexes.

And look at how bad that new HQ choice is for AdMech! It may as well not exist at all.

This is the Kill Team guy, right? Haven't seen his rules yet, I don't think, but why do you believe him to be bad?

Customization rules are not the problem. Bad balance of those and other rules is the problem. Giving Space Marines 7 (or 8 or 9 if you include non-Codex sources) does not make them somehow less customizable.

Heck, the most common Chapter Tactic taken is Ultramarines and they don't have the best Chapter Tactic. What they do have is Robute Gilliman, Marneous Calgar, Tigerius, and Sergeant Telion. Well, really just Bobby G is all that really matters

What GW needs to do is a much better job of balancing out the customization rules. IG at least has a more than one contender for best Regimental Doctrine between Cadian and Catachan. Heck, one of the two top placing IG armies at LVO was Valhallan to take advantage of their Regimental Order and morale mitigation.

GW is getting a little better, but not much. Sisters have basically two, at best three, out of six army-wide rules being useful. The solution of "get rid of everything" though wouldn't do Sisters any favor. Sisters have limited customization as it is, and getting rid of what little we DO have will just make every single Sisters army the exact same. Those two or three good rules have actually pushed people to have debates about the best way to play the army, which is the first time we've had that outside of the first week of each new crappy codex or minidex we've gotten since C:WH.

When they first said that everyone is getting subfaction rules, I feared that this is exactly what would happen. One of them will always be the best, so if you're not using that, you're gimping yourself. The problem is that because they don't cost points, they're really tough to balance,

Frankly, I think such traits have too much impact. I think that the 'chapter tactic' style constant bonuses shouldn't exits. Relics, warlord traits and stratagems would be enough. With Stratagems you can adjust the CP cost if it turns out that one is too powerful, and Relics should cost points anyway.