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What do we all think of the new priests and prayers rules?

What we know:
At the beginning of a battle round.
Roll to take effect.
In effect until end of battle round.
Some prayers are inherent to the priest, other are selected from a list.
CSM Dark Apostles will be priests that know 1 inherent and 1 selected prayer, can cast 1 per battle round.

Some people have pointed out that prayers don't specifically work when embarked/reserved which defeats a primary tactic for dark apostles. This could be a major downside to the rule type. However, I think that's within the realm of being FAQ'd in either direction and that the viability of this new rule type could hinge on it.

On the other hand, this is a major breath of fresh air for some potential recipients! I'm thinking T'au Ethereals for starters, invoking elements at the start of the battle round rather than your movement phase means going 2nd doesn't deny you a turn of 6+++. Death guard comes to mind as they have lots of defensive powers that can make going 1st or 2nd a significant deal. That might mean re-purposing some psykers and auras to priests which could cause a ruckus but maybe it could be worthwhile.

What do you think, will this new style be good for the game if it catches on? What does it need to succeed? Who will be getting it in the future? I think chaplains are the obvious choice.

One other thing about marketing. Does anyone agree with me that instead of releasing new genres of rules to one faction at a time through supplemental hardcover fluff filled books, that GW should instead do expansion books like in killteam? That way all players would buy all the non-codex books and have all the rules at their fingertips (and a huge pile of dead tree to lug around). For example, starting from index we could get a light book that introduces all of the sub faction traits then a few months later all of the relics and WL traits for those factions, then a few months later a set of stratagems for faction and sub-faction, and then later still a book with specialist detachments for everyone at once. I'm tired of free goodies being unevenly distributed for long periods of time (yeah yeah it's been worse in the past and i should go through every hardship you ever did and be happy about it uh huh). Anyways it could be years before ethereals get prayers, months for chaplains, all for what?

"So, we have these special powers used by certain models. They need you to roll 2 dice, can sometimes hurt you and can potentially be blocked by certain models."

"Interesting. We should give this model a special power that needs only 1 dice and cannot be blocked and has no downside."

"Brilliant!"

Prayers and AoF are basically now unblockable strictly better psychic powers.

All we need is for all character auras to only function on a 3+, and for only one of each type to be available per battle round. BRILLIANT!

StarHunter25 wrote:
All we need is for all character auras to only function on a 3+, and for only one of each type to be available per battle round. BRILLIANT!

Better solution: Remove auras or change them

No more bubbles!

Good points. These do seem to be strictly better than psychic powers and worse than passive auras.

Do you think there is design space such abilities that are more reliable but weaker than psy? Or that aura's aren't sufficiently versatile? Come to think of it the ones listed don't seem weaker than dark herticus powers, creepy.

I'm not a fan of things that are unlikely to fail, but could just to get in the way of a plan. OtOH I do like getting buffs up before getting shot at.

ROLL DICE TO SEE HOW MANY DICE YOU GET TO ROLL.

Why have strategy and good game design and interesting player choices when you can just roll to see if you get a buff? Who needs skill, just let the dice decide what happens!

 Peregrine wrote:
ROLL DICE TO SEE HOW MANY DICE YOU GET TO ROLL.

Why have strategy and good game design and interesting player choices when you can just roll to see if you get a buff? Who needs skill, just let the dice decide what happens!

I feel like if rolling dice upsets you this much you might want to try another game? We roll a very large number of dice in 40k. I played Blood Rage the other day and had a lot of fun with it, the luck factor in that game is very small with no dice and hands of cards that are selected through a draft.

 Peregrine wrote:
ROLL DICE TO SEE HOW MANY DICE YOU GET TO ROLL.

Why have strategy and good game design and interesting player choices when you can just roll to see if you get a buff? Who needs skill, just let the dice decide what happens!

You need to find another game. Warhammer clearly isn't for you.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
"So, we have these special powers used by certain models. They need you to roll 2 dice, can sometimes hurt you and can potentially be blocked by certain models."

"Interesting. We should give this model a special power that needs only 1 dice and cannot be blocked and has no downside."

"Brilliant!"

Prayers and AoF are basically now unblockable strictly better psychic powers.

So like canticles of Adeptus Mechanicus (but with limited range on some prayers and done by specific models instead of just being able to do it globally)?
I'm ok with more factions getting this.

Shas'O'Ceris wrote:
What do we all think of the new priests and prayers rules?

GW - "Dark Apostles now get the chaplain special rule"
Players - "Cool... wait didn't they already... ?"
GW - "Two thirds of the time"

40k by its nature is a game of dice but i've never been a fan of adding extra steps of randomness. It's enough already that a model can fluff its attacks or wound rolls, it doesn't need more rolls on top adding additional chances to fall flat.
Each extra layer of random rolls just reduces any level of strategy the game has.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Prayers and AoF are basically now unblockable strictly better psychic powers.

A 3" move on one unit per turn, that fails to work a third of the time and consumes finite resources, is strictly better than psychic powers?

Just sounds like they took the AoS prayer system and introduced it to 40k. I'm fine with that, especially if they were to introduce the "on a natural 1 suffer 1d3 mortal wounds" to the template.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
"So, we have these special powers used by certain models. They need you to roll 2 dice, can sometimes hurt you and can potentially be blocked by certain models."

"Interesting. We should give this model a special power that needs only 1 dice and cannot be blocked and has no downside."

"Brilliant!"

Prayers and AoF are basically now unblockable strictly better psychic powers.

AoF are way worse, and the prayer system existed in 6th and 7th, so...nothing new?

 Sir Heckington wrote:

StarHunter25 wrote:
All we need is for all character auras to only function on a 3+, and for only one of each type to be available per battle round. BRILLIANT!

Better solution: Remove auras or change them

No more bubbles!

Start of 8th: auras are amazing!!!

Now: auras are the worst....

As an avid World Eaters player, I hate the new rules for the Apostle. They're no longer auto takes, and reduced to 'maybe if I have points left over'.

Prayers have potential to be the new AoF system, because sisters players overwhelmingly hated beta dex AoF, so GW is committing to redesign it for the release.

And I think that could work. There are interesting dynamics at play- some factions having access to faith only, some having access to psychic only, and other factions having access to both.

PenitentJake wrote:
Prayers have potential to be the new AoF system, because sisters players overwhelmingly hated beta dex AoF, so GW is committing to redesign it for the release

Yes, this does seem to have a lot in common with all the things sisters players hated about the new AoF system.

Naw- prayers are way better than current AoF.

1) There doesn't seem to be "Faith Points"- you just get to try and use each power that your army possesses one per turn.
2) The prayers themselves are way better than the AoF

Granted, they only previewed 2 prayers, but both of them are better than any of the AoF.

Ergo, if they used Prayers to replace AoF, it would be an improvement over what sisters have right now. Characters would know one dedicated prayer and they would be able to choose one from a selection of 4-6 other prayers. In addition, there would be one prayer that was specific to each order.

Sister squads, on the other hand, would only know one prayer. It could either be a specific prayer based on unit type, or maybe they get the order prayer. It would be way cooler IMO to allow each squad to choose its known prayer. That would really personalize the units and give them each a unique role and identity.

I will say that World Eater players are quite happy with the ability to get buff's to their army now.

Most were taking the Dark apostle as an HQ already so no loss there.

 chimeara wrote:
As an avid World Eaters player, I hate the new rules for the Apostle. They're no longer auto takes, and reduced to 'maybe if I have points left over'.

As a World Eater-player myself, the Dark Apostle went from a "why would I ever take this?" to a "I might take this actually."

I feel that the Dark Apostle lost his role in 8th when Chaos Lords and Daemon Princes got their reroll 1's-aura.
Granted, theirs only worked on 1's, but it worked on shooting as well, and the CL/DP could be kitted out to be both deadlier and faster, unlike the Apostle who was stuck on foot with his crappy power maul.

Now the Apostle feels unique, and adds something new to the army. He no longer feels like a gimped Chaos Lord.

 MinscS2 wrote:

 chimeara wrote:
As an avid World Eaters player, I hate the new rules for the Apostle. They're no longer auto takes, and reduced to 'maybe if I have points left over'.

As a World Eater-player myself, the Dark Apostle went from a "why would I ever take this?" to a "I might take this actually."

I feel that the Dark Apostle lost his role in 8th when Chaos Lords and Daemon Princes got their reroll 1's-aura.
Granted, theirs only worked on 1's, but it worked on shooting as well, and the CL/DP could be kitted out to be both deadlier and faster, unlike the Apostle who was stuck on foot with his crappy power maul.

Now the Apostle feels unique, and adds something new to the army. He no longer feels like a gimped Chaos Lord.

His aura is currently something that works automatically. So he can ride in a transport with the berzerkers. But the new rules, he can't ride in a transport and he has to take little dudes to make it work better. My usual competition list includes Dark Apostle and Exalted Champion for full reroll in combat. My gonna have to rethink my competitive lists now...

I like the idea of prayers being a method to give CSM units IG-like orders. Being Chaos, and having been a CSM player for a bit, I don't have an issue with prayers having a risk of failure or even a penalty for attempting and rolling poorly. Asking for Chaotic divine intervention seems like a recipe for ruin to me. That is kinda the Chaos rules I am used to though. However, with risk should come reward. Prayers should have effects worth adding a Dark Apostle and/or that Dark Apostle making an armor save, taking a mortal wound or even being removed outright for said effects.

I am sure some players will not like the random nature this, but unlike the previous edition's Chaos boon's, this can be easily avoided by just not taking the Dark Apostle or not using the riskier prayers. Which seems fine by me.