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 small_gods wrote:
I don't play MTG, so I have no idea if I'm a timmy/johnny? I play in tournaments, do ok. Play with friends and manage to have fun. Have done for a while.

I'm not comparing the two really. I'm saying if you want to play pure competitive, play with the best list you can put together and don't think about the fluff.

Does it make sense that 3 thousand sons deamon princes, Ahriman and a load of plaguebearers would naturally band together? No of course not. But that's what I see at tournaments.

If you want a Word Bearers fluffy army play with that. They get the cursed crozious and you might save a cultist or two from running away.

I think there's a lot of space between "Equally competitive" and "So bad that it makes us doubt if you even read your own rules." We know that 'equally competitive' is not really achievable. But boy is there plenty of room for a lot of these rules to not be this awful.

Equally competitive isn't even the goal, as it's obviously impossible.

But having entire subfaction that do not even have a niche theoretical use is really bad form.

I still think he has great potential. Though this is of course entirely dependent on points. If he costs the same a daemon prince or less? he will see plenty of table time.

Being a 4++ daemon engine that has healing all around and a "half damage dealt" warlord trait could go a very long way as well as easy access to buffs to a 3++ or a 5+ FNP roll (Tzeentch or a MOP buff in this case)

a 4++ with "half damage" may require a literal army worth of shooting to properly kill. At the very least 50% of which won't do anything and if he is still on the table with even a single wound he will shoot back up rather quickly.

Could he be killed top of 1 if you don't go first? yeah totally, but I generally find thats overblown by most people on about 90% of tables.

Ahriman21 wrote:
I still think he has great potential. Though this is of course entirely dependent on points. If he costs the same a daemon prince or less? he will see plenty of table time.

Being a 4++ daemon engine that has healing all around and a "half damage dealt" warlord trait could go a very long way as well as easy access to buffs to a 3++ or a 5+ FNP roll (Tzeentch or a MOP buff in this case)

a 4++ with "half damage" may require a literal army worth of shooting to properly kill. At the very least 50% of which won't do anything and if he is still on the table with even a single wound he will shoot back up rather quickly.

Could he be killed top of 1 if you don't go first? yeah totally, but I generally find thats overblown by most people on about 90% of tables.

This.

What matters isn't if he can be killed turn 1, what matters is the efficiency of killing him vs killing other units. If he's going to be mandatory for your opponent to shoot, then load him up with all the defenses you can. They spend turn 1 killing him, but at low efficiency, while the rest of your army is shot proportionally less thanks to it. That's still a big upside.

And if you really need that buff, just take 2.

 Galas wrote:
My Chaos army is a mixed warband with a little of everything. A unit of Thousand Sons Rubric Marines called "Azakariel and the Nine Magnifiques", a squad of Iron Warriors with 20 mk3 marines, 2 vindicators and one Warpsmith, etc... all painted in their own legion colours working as mercenaries under the banner of my Khorne Daemon Prince, Brutuss the Big (He was Brutuss the Small when he was an Ultramarine, he was very short by SM standards and had a big Napoleon complex. I like my Chaos characters being petty)

This is cool. I've got a campaign on the go- the chaos faction hasn't started to grow yet, because it's going to start with the rogue psyker from Blackstone and a small bodyguard of cultists. They'll be competing for recruits against a genestealer cult; as long as they remain subtle, they can evade notice by the IG garrison, the Sororitas mission and the Ministorum Penitent legion. Attacking small kill teams of miners has a small, cumulative chance to raise suspicion; raiding to acquire vehicles is a larger increase.

The cult is Slaanesh, so they fight with needle weapons to addict their targets to all manner of unholy combat drugs. Once recruited, they can perform rituals to summon the daemons [ie. bring the daemons of slaanesh faction into the game as opposed to summoning them to the battlefield during a game). The miners will then be instructed to dig by the voices in the rogue psykers head.

That's where they'll find the Daemonforge sealed beneath the crust of the planet. The resultant psychic resonance will draw the chaos marines from near and far.

If they succeed at all of their missions. And if the genestealer cult doesn't grow fast enough to draw the tyranids first.

The third option, of course, is that slaanesh, in his arrogance, assumes that his chaotic gifts could bend the genestealer curse to his service in pursuit of divine procreation and unholy, glorious mutation.

I think the book looks fun. I just wish they let us play test the keyword bloat so that we don’t get the short end of that in the future. I think that this is actually a good time to be a chaos player because the models are awesome, the ammount of releases exceeds the imperium which is like a unicorn, and they bothered to reprint our codes with updated points and interesting rules no one else has yet. Which reprinting codex in the same edition in this manner is fairly unheard of (I explicitly worded that to keep the likes of the 3.5 CSM codex our of this and similar endeavors)

macluvin wrote:
I think the book looks fun. I just wish they let us play test the keyword bloat so that we don’t get the short end of that in the future. I think that this is actually a good time to be a chaos player because the models are awesome, the ammount of releases exceeds the imperium which is like a unicorn, and they bothered to reprint our codes with updated points and interesting rules no one else has yet. Which reprinting codex in the same edition in this manner is fairly unheard of (I explicitly worded that to keep the likes of the 3.5 CSM codex our of this and similar endeavors)

it's not really that unheard of, it seems whenever GW puts out a campaign book with new units they update the codex. see space wolves and tau during 7th ed.

Soulforged pack detachment- warpsmiths and daemon engine units.

Warlord trait- +2 to movement of daemon engines within 6 of the warlord.

Relic-special mechatendrils -1 attack for each enemy within 1 inch of the bearer instead of just +2 attacks.

1CP- doubles wounds characteristic of daemon engine (for brackets)
1CP- Allows a daemon wngine to advance and charge

To those complaining about points costs (for the daemon engine HQ etc.) remember Chapter Approved can save a unit long before a new codex comes out.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Soulforged pack detachment- warpsmiths and daemon engine units.

Warlord trait- +2 to movement of daemon engines within 6 of the warlord.

Relic-special mechatendrils -1 attack for each enemy within 1 inch of the bearer instead of just +2 attacks.

1CP- doubles wounds characteristic of daemon engine (for brackets)
1CP- Allows a daemon wngine to advance and charge

fun fact the Lord Discordant has the Keyword "Warpsmith", he can also heal himself D3 wounds per turn as he is a vehicle, he also reagins 1 wound back per turn as well.

run the LD with a bunch of maulerfiends and the Soulforged pack warlord trait, could also have a jump-pack sorcerer running warptime or the 1CP advance & charge unit etc. for a devatating turn 1 charge.

Problem with all sub-faction traits is that to play true to the lore so some are going to be far more fitting in terms of how the game operates. I think with gak sub-faction rules they should give two gak buffs instead of one etc.

You spend so much time designing, building and painting your force that naturally you want them to be good. Besides that, inaccurate hyperbole and the internet go hand in hand.

Having seen the books, the whole thing greatly exceeds my expectation. I was thinking Shadowspear, Abaddon, maybe some new CSM and a couple sub par detachments. Quite a lot of new stuff and a lot to consider.

One thing I think is really interesting is the idea that you might build an army around the Punishing Volley (shoot with one unit after the enemy moves, if they got the first turn) and World Killers (turn off enemy OBSEC at the start of a battle round) strategems and Dark Apostles that plans for not getting the first turn.

The thing is cultists don't get legion traits any more (its been claimed online, not seen it myself) so changing say the Word Bearer's legion trait to Iyanden's "they can only lose 1 model from morale" would be a meaningful improvement designed to encourage big squads and would still be decidedly meh.

I realise this is a bit of a sob story - prompting "just pick another legion" - but it is kind of annoying. Not least because, as said, several of the renegade abilities seem to be top tier. So unless there is a major issue with relics/warlord traits/stratagems (which are potentially devalued by all options you get in the "not-formations" you can pick) I can't see why you wouldn't do that.

Tyel wrote:
The thing is cultists don't get legion traits any more (its been claimed online, not seen it myself) so changing say the Word Bearer's legion trait to Iyanden's "they can only lose 1 model from morale" would be a meaningful improvement designed to encourage big squads and would still be decidedly meh.

I realise this is a bit of a sob story - prompting "just pick another legion" - but it is kind of annoying. Not least because, as said, several of the renegade abilities seem to be top tier. So unless there is a major issue with relics/warlord traits/stratagems (which are potentially devalued by all options you get in the "not-formations" you can pick) I can't see why you wouldn't do that.

Renegades don't get access to veterans of the long war. Arguably our best stratergem, so they needed some boosts to get played.

With the new Dark Apostle and the WB cursed crozius relic you can make an unbelievable beatstick.

Also summoning is becoming more useable and word bearers have the summoning strat that might make them even more useful.

They've got a rough deal woth legion traits but it's not all bad.

 small_gods wrote:
Renegades don't get access to veterans of the long war. Arguably our best stratergem, so they needed some boosts to get played.

This is a fair point that I hadn't thought about.

Tyel wrote:

 small_gods wrote:
Renegades don't get access to veterans of the long war. Arguably our best stratergem, so they needed some boosts to get played.

This is a fair point that I hadn't thought about.

Except all you do is take a min Red Corsair battalion (I think it's like less than 300 points?) to get +8 CP and then use it on your other detachment of Alpha Legion which DOES get VOTLW. So who cares if the Renegades don't get it? All they are doing is feeding CP to the stuff that does.

That's why it's bullgak. Because it just exacerbates the problem of taking a minimal battalion ONLY for getting bonus CP which you then turn around and use on "the good stuff"

Wayniac wrote:

Tyel wrote:

 small_gods wrote:
Renegades don't get access to veterans of the long war. Arguably our best stratergem, so they needed some boosts to get played.

This is a fair point that I hadn't thought about.

Except all you do is take a min Red Corsair battalion (I think it's like less than 300 points?) to get +8 CP and then use it on your other detachment of Alpha Legion which DOES get VOTLW. So who cares if the Renegades don't get it? All they are doing is feeding CP to the stuff that does.

That's why it's bullgak. Because it just exacerbates the problem of taking a minimal battalion ONLY for getting bonus CP which you then turn around and use on "the good stuff"

There are downsides to this though, and it's from a purely competitive standpoint.

You have 3 squads of csm that don't synergise well with a lot of other stuff in your second detachment. You have to pay for 2 warpsmiths you'll probably never use. 3CP isn't going to break the game.

You could just as easily make a single brigade instead of 2 battalions if you are super starved of CP.

 small_gods wrote:

Wayniac wrote:

Tyel wrote:

 small_gods wrote:
Renegades don't get access to veterans of the long war. Arguably our best stratergem, so they needed some boosts to get played.

This is a fair point that I hadn't thought about.

Except all you do is take a min Red Corsair battalion (I think it's like less than 300 points?) to get +8 CP and then use it on your other detachment of Alpha Legion which DOES get VOTLW. So who cares if the Renegades don't get it? All they are doing is feeding CP to the stuff that does.

That's why it's bullgak. Because it just exacerbates the problem of taking a minimal battalion ONLY for getting bonus CP which you then turn around and use on "the good stuff"

There are downsides to this though, and it's from a purely competitive standpoint.

You have 3 squads of csm that don't synergise well with a lot of other stuff in your second detachment. You have to pay for 2 warpsmiths you'll probably never use. 3CP isn't going to break the game.

You could just as easily make a single brigade instead of 2 battalions if you are super starved of CP.

Sure, if you don't mind paying for Elites, Fast Attack, and Heavy Support.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 small_gods wrote:

Wayniac wrote:

Tyel wrote:

 small_gods wrote:
Renegades don't get access to veterans of the long war. Arguably our best stratergem, so they needed some boosts to get played.

This is a fair point that I hadn't thought about.

Except all you do is take a min Red Corsair battalion (I think it's like less than 300 points?) to get +8 CP and then use it on your other detachment of Alpha Legion which DOES get VOTLW. So who cares if the Renegades don't get it? All they are doing is feeding CP to the stuff that does.

That's why it's bullgak. Because it just exacerbates the problem of taking a minimal battalion ONLY for getting bonus CP which you then turn around and use on "the good stuff"

There are downsides to this though, and it's from a purely competitive standpoint.

You have 3 squads of csm that don't synergise well with a lot of other stuff in your second detachment. You have to pay for 2 warpsmiths you'll probably never use. 3CP isn't going to break the game.

You could just as easily make a single brigade instead of 2 battalions if you are super starved of CP.

Sure, if you don't mind paying for Elites, Fast Attack, and Heavy Support.

Before CA 18 and vigilus I would agree with you but now with new havocks, cheaper helbrutes and spawn, beta bolter for bikes or chosen w/combi bolters, there's not a lot that seems like wasted points to me.

 small_gods wrote:
With the new Dark Apostle and the WB cursed crozius relic you can make an unbelievable beatstick.

The new Dark Apostle doesn't have a Power Maul anymore, he has a new weapon called the Accursed crozius (GW naming originality strike again) now.
So he can't take the Cursed Crozius or the Black Mace or any other weapon relic.

 krakjen wrote:

 small_gods wrote:
With the new Dark Apostle and the WB cursed crozius relic you can make an unbelievable beatstick.

The new Dark Apostle doesn't have a Power Maul anymore, he has a new weapon called the Accursed crozius (GW naming originality strike again) now.
So he can't take the Cursed Crozius or the Black Mace or any other weapon relic.

Ayy, i suspect oversight though, because why should an Dark apostle not get access to the cursed crozius?

Maybe going too far, but I think the "if you have 3 units of CSM, you gain 3 CP" should have applied to everyone.

Tyel wrote:
Maybe going too far, but I think the "if you have 3 units of CSM, you gain 3 CP" should have applied to everyone.

No. Because then everyone would say the same thing and then we'd wind up in the same spot we're in now, but just with Castellans getting more CP.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Tyel wrote:
Maybe going too far, but I think the "if you have 3 units of CSM, you gain 3 CP" should have applied to everyone.

No. Because then everyone would say the same thing and then we'd wind up in the same spot we're in now, but just with Castellans getting more CP.

When was Chaos taking Castellans?

Wayniac wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Tyel wrote:
Maybe going too far, but I think the "if you have 3 units of CSM, you gain 3 CP" should have applied to everyone.

No. Because then everyone would say the same thing and then we'd wind up in the same spot we're in now, but just with Castellans getting more CP.

When was Chaos taking Castellans?

As in "all of chaos has this then Imperium should, too".

 CadianGateTroll wrote:
If you dont like any of the chaos cake, then do what i did and sell your army and or quit.

Or play older editions of the game.

 Strg Alt wrote:

 CadianGateTroll wrote:
If you dont like any of the chaos cake, then do what i did and sell your army and or quit.

Or play older editions of the game.

Playing older editions is tough to do when you don't have a community that's sympathetic to your plight or has the resources to do so.

I can understand the idea of "If you don't like it, why are you even here?" sort of mentality. I wonder that same thing about pretty much every person that frequents this forum. To be honest, GW wouldn't shed a single tear if this, and other dens of toxicity, dried up and all the players here ceased to play the game. Their business strategy is entirely in getting new players in, not keeping old players. That's just how it goes.

That said, we can still endeavor to expect more from this company. They're the biggest, produce the highest quality plastic miniatures at volumes that no other tabletop company produces. They say they're listening to the fans now, so more than ever we need to make sure they hear us.

The problem comes with the age of the Chaos range. This stuff was designed 5 years ago, before Tom Kirby passed the reigns to Roundtree. We need to make sure GW knows our discontent, or else the next update that Chaos gets 3-5 years from now will be more of the same blandness.

drbored wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

 CadianGateTroll wrote:
If you dont like any of the chaos cake, then do what i did and sell your army and or quit.

Or play older editions of the game.

Playing older editions is tough to do when you don't have a community that's sympathetic to your plight or has the resources to do so.

I can understand the idea of "If you don't like it, why are you even here?" sort of mentality. I wonder that same thing about pretty much every person that frequents this forum. To be honest, GW wouldn't shed a single tear if this, and other dens of toxicity, dried up and all the players here ceased to play the game. Their business strategy is entirely in getting new players in, not keeping old players. That's just how it goes.

That said, we can still endeavor to expect more from this company. They're the biggest, produce the highest quality plastic miniatures at volumes that no other tabletop company produces. They say they're listening to the fans now, so more than ever we need to make sure they hear us.

The problem comes with the age of the Chaos range. This stuff was designed 5 years ago, before Tom Kirby passed the reigns to Roundtree. We need to make sure GW knows our discontent, or else the next update that Chaos gets 3-5 years from now will be more of the same blandness.

Bingo! I'd love to be able to play with the old Lost and the Damned lists, but well, I hate the old core rules, 8th is much more fun imo, and no one to play with. Of course we're gonna complain about things.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Wayniac wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Tyel wrote:
Maybe going too far, but I think the "if you have 3 units of CSM, you gain 3 CP" should have applied to everyone.

No. Because then everyone would say the same thing and then we'd wind up in the same spot we're in now, but just with Castellans getting more CP.

When was Chaos taking Castellans?

As in "all of chaos has this then Imperium should, too".

I'd be fine with them doing it for Imperials in the form of tac marines. "If your detachment has 3 units of tactical marines they gain another 3 CPs"
do that for the basic "tactical trooper" for ALL elite armies.

This isn't the first time Chaos has had 2 cakes.

Used to have a piece of scenery, it was an altar made from columns and platforms used for wedding cakes. A friend saw it, he made one too. We called them the Cakes and they made the game nicer to play.

To the OP: people need more time to process what they just got. It's too early to be treating reactions as a serious set of concerns about the range.

There are so many combinations of Legion Traits / Detachments / Relics / Stratagems / CP Implications / HQ Taxes / etc, to absorb that no one can honestly say they know what optimal lists will look like. I spent a few hours working on lists today and the only thing I learned is the Lord Dischordant is a very valuable character.