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Q: say I have a model 3" from an enemy, I declare a charge and wouldn't you know it? I die, I do however have a stratagem allowing me to "fight or shoot", there are a few such stratagems knocking about.

Now I declared a charge, so by my reckoning I can hit the target in a fight phase, obviously however I'm too far away, however the first thing you do in the fight phase is "pile in".

Question, would I be able to pile in? as its part of the fight phase. Obviously need to be within pile in range to do it, otherwise can "pile in" 3", still be too far away, and then die.

Bod in question was a Genestealer Broodlord, sitting 3" away from an enemy that looked like dinner, Tyranid strat allows fighting as if the fight phase or shooting as if the shooting phase, this does suggest pile in and consolidate would be in effect as they are in the fight phase.

thoughts?

leopard wrote:
Q: say I have a model 3" from an enemy, I declare a charge and wouldn't you know it? I die, I do however have a stratagem allowing me to "fight or shoot", there are a few such stratagems knocking about.

Now I declared a charge, so by my reckoning I can hit the target in a fight phase, obviously however I'm too far away, however the first thing you do in the fight phase is "pile in".

Question, would I be able to pile in? as its part of the fight phase. Obviously need to be within pile in range to do it, otherwise can "pile in" 3", still be too far away, and then die.

Bod in question was a Genestealer Broodlord, sitting 3" away from an enemy that looked like dinner, Tyranid strat allows fighting as if the fight phase or shooting as if the shooting phase, this does suggest pile in and consolidate would be in effect as they are in the fight phase.

thoughts?

If you choose to act as if it were the fight phase, you do nothing because you aren't within 1" of an enemy. This is because the first step of the fight phase is seeing if you're within 1" of an enemy unit. The stratagem doesn't let you ignore rules you don't like, you still have to follow all the rules of the fight phase.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

leopard wrote:
Q: say I have a model 3" from an enemy, I declare a charge and wouldn't you know it? I die, I do however have a stratagem allowing me to "fight or shoot", there are a few such stratagems knocking about.

Now I declared a charge, so by my reckoning I can hit the target in a fight phase, obviously however I'm too far away, however the first thing you do in the fight phase is "pile in".

Question, would I be able to pile in? as its part of the fight phase. Obviously need to be within pile in range to do it, otherwise can "pile in" 3", still be too far away, and then die.

Bod in question was a Genestealer Broodlord, sitting 3" away from an enemy that looked like dinner, Tyranid strat allows fighting as if the fight phase or shooting as if the shooting phase, this does suggest pile in and consolidate would be in effect as they are in the fight phase.

thoughts?

If you choose to act as if it were the fight phase, you do nothing because you aren't within 1" of an enemy. This is because the first step of the fight phase is seeing if you're within 1" of an enemy unit. The stratagem doesn't let you ignore rules you don't like, you still have to follow all the rules of the fight phase.

First sentence of the rules for the fight phase

"Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of and enemy unit can be chosen to fight..."

Mr Gribble had charged so he hits that rule squarely, so not seeing a problem - had he not charged there would have been no overwatch - had he been killed in the enemy shooting phase all he could do is shoot - with the ranged weapons he doesn't have.. but in my turn, he has declared a charge so doesn't need to be within 1" as the rules say or.

next step is "pile in", which is the 3" movement, then swinging claws, axes, bits of wood, etc at the enemy, but I'm not seeing why I couldn't go in and actually fight.

leopard wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

leopard wrote:
Q: say I have a model 3" from an enemy, I declare a charge and wouldn't you know it? I die, I do however have a stratagem allowing me to "fight or shoot", there are a few such stratagems knocking about.

Now I declared a charge, so by my reckoning I can hit the target in a fight phase, obviously however I'm too far away, however the first thing you do in the fight phase is "pile in".

Question, would I be able to pile in? as its part of the fight phase. Obviously need to be within pile in range to do it, otherwise can "pile in" 3", still be too far away, and then die.

Bod in question was a Genestealer Broodlord, sitting 3" away from an enemy that looked like dinner, Tyranid strat allows fighting as if the fight phase or shooting as if the shooting phase, this does suggest pile in and consolidate would be in effect as they are in the fight phase.

thoughts?

If you choose to act as if it were the fight phase, you do nothing because you aren't within 1" of an enemy. This is because the first step of the fight phase is seeing if you're within 1" of an enemy unit. The stratagem doesn't let you ignore rules you don't like, you still have to follow all the rules of the fight phase.

First sentence of the rules for the fight phase

"Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of and enemy unit can be chosen to fight..."

Mr Gribble had charged so he hits that rule squarely, so not seeing a problem - had he not charged there would have been no overwatch - had he been killed in the enemy shooting phase all he could do is shoot - with the ranged weapons he doesn't have.. but in my turn, he has declared a charge so doesn't need to be within 1" as the rules say or.

next step is "pile in", which is the 3" movement, then swinging claws, axes, bits of wood, etc at the enemy, but I'm not seeing why I couldn't go in and actually fight.

You didn't successfully make the charge, so you didn't charge.

BRB FAQ wrote:Q: When a unit is chosen to make a charge move and fails the charge, do they still count as having charged? Specifically, can a unit that has failed a charge move be chosen to pile in – and potentially consolidate – towards the enemy?
A: A unit only counts as having charged if they made a charge move. If a charge fails, and no models make a charge move, they do not count as having charged. As such, they cannot be chosen to fight in the Fight phase (and so cannot pile in or consolidate) unless an enemy unit moves within 1" of them.

In fact that FAQ isn't even relevant because Overwatch happens before you make any charge rolls or charge moves.

well I had rolled the charge distance successfully, not sure if that comes first or second.

will take the FAQ ruling though as final

for the record Mr Gribble dropped dead in the game where he stood without moving further than was required to hit the deck he stood on.

this is the sort of reason I asked, given the final ruling bit isn't actually in the book its worth asking how this stuff interacts

You roll for charge after overwatch, so if you die in overwatch you didn't roll at all for charge distance.

can accept that as final, only rolled the distance because they guy I was fighting insisted, he gets overwatch anyway but seems to delight in killing stuff that wouldn't have made it in anyway for some weird reason.

still Mr Gribble died as he should have so sorted

Just remember for next time you must resolve overwatch before rolling for charge distance. This is important and can affect the result, so make sure to do it correctly otherwise someone is going to get upset one day.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Just remember for next time you must resolve overwatch before rolling for charge distance. This is important and can affect the result, so make sure to do it correctly otherwise someone is going to get upset one day.

no issues with that, thinking of making some phase by phase idiot cards specific to the various armies I have (e.g. covering "death to the false emperor" etc.

this game could do with an actual 'sequence of play' appendix, though would require GW to drop the "dice for it" or "phasing player decides" stuff and actually work out what happens in what order for the detailed stuff.

for the basics should be possible and potentially useful though, almost a turn by turn checklist if you will.

There is no need for a sequence of play appendix, its all in the core rules. Every phase has a red box where the sequence is written.

 p5freak wrote:
There is no need for a sequence of play appendix, its all in the core rules. Every phase has a red box where the sequence is written.

problem is the sequences leave situations down to a dice off or "phasing player decides" and also don't take account of the stuff in the various FAQs and errata, nor the weird interactions between rules in the various codexes.

point is a properly defined sequence solves a lot of this, largely by forcing the games designers to actually think about it and the way the rules are phrased - doesn't have to change anything, just makes it all exceedingly clear and critically - all in one place

Overwatch happens during the charge phase.

If the unit dies before making it to the fight phase you cannot fight again, as you were never eligible to fight. The unit didn't successfully charge (it died).

leopard wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
There is no need for a sequence of play appendix, its all in the core rules. Every phase has a red box where the sequence is written.

problem is the sequences leave situations down to a dice off or "phasing player decides" and also don't take account of the stuff in the various FAQs and errata, nor the weird interactions between rules in the various codexes.

point is a properly defined sequence solves a lot of this, largely by forcing the games designers to actually think about it and the way the rules are phrased - doesn't have to change anything, just makes it all exceedingly clear and critically - all in one place

Specific rules need to be able to override core rules otherwise the designers need to think of all the rules for all future units before even releasing the game...

thats why you make a sequence of play an appendix, and update it when a new codex comes out.

also helps if they don't spend half the time thinking of ways to make new units immune to various core rules in similar but not quite the same ways