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Exactly. We have decent powers, and pay for them. But only 3 of our models can cast a good power in any one turn.

thanks for the input all
been reading thru all this and found many interesting points

currently ive only been useing a small Greyknight detachment as an allied support to my ultramarines in games over 2000 points
-Brother Captain with hammer
-Voldus
-Apothecary
-Paladin Ancient
- 10x Paladins (1 squad of 10, or 2 squads of 5 depending on my mood)

one observation I have had, I get the feeling that Greyknights are not so much about psychic offensive but more about psychic defensive, ive totally shut down enemy psychic phase with all the deny the witch I have access to, and they all get +1 to deny the witch due to brotherhood of psykers.
I do have some useful psyker powers, but I found its more about denying the enemy the ability to use theirs

I am slowly expanding my GKs to a full 2000+ point list and appreciate all the input you all have given

Well, psychic offensive is not so bad if you have several small units casting ''smite''.
In opposition to other armies, smite is cast constantly on +4.

Maybe GW could split GK psychic powers in to minor ones. Like smite or hammerhand, that could be cast multiple times per turn. And the realy powerful ones that would follow the rule of one.

My suggestion for GK would be to give them ''aegis'' armor which means that they are hit from shooting by subtracting 1.

Karol wrote:
Maybe GW could split GK psychic powers in to minor ones. Like smite or hammerhand, that could be cast multiple times per turn. And the realy powerful ones that would follow the rule of one.

I think it'd be cool to see them get something similar to Thousand Sons, where you have a list dedicated to the Character psykers and a list dedicated to the units.

You could have maybe two powers dedicated to psyker vehicles and 4 powers that scale up in power with the size of the squad casting the power from 1-10.

Something like "Psionic Onslaught, WC5. Pick a visible enemy unit within 18", that unit suffers 1 mortal wound. When attempting to manifest this power, divide the number of models in the unit casting the power by 3, rounding down. Increase the warp charge value and number of mortal wounds dealt by this power by that number."

Psychic Cooperation: On a successful cast of Smite, cause Mortals based on the Models in the casting unit: 1-5: 1, 5-10:2, 10:3

Characters should simply get normal smite.

stormcraft wrote:
Psychic Cooperation: On a successful cast of Smite, cause Mortals based on the Models in the casting unit: 1-5: 1, 5-10:2, 10:3

Characters should simply get normal smite.

I Like the direction you are heading, larger group of brothers = more psychic potential.

That is in deed a very cool idea. And would even require a lot of rewriting or changing of point costs or unit rules. Just the psychic powers could be update, and GW could sell them as a whole new deck.

So hive mind ideas do work out, who would have thought.

Still doing pretty well with this list.

Draigo, gate & hammerhand
10 paladins w/halberds, paragon w/hammer, 4x psycsnnon, hammerhand
3 paladins w/halberds, paragon w/hammer, gate
3 paladins w/halberds, paragon w/hammer, gate
Apothecary w/hammer, WL(FTTF), curicass of sacrifice, sanctuary

Voldus, gate, hammerhand, sanctuary
Venerable Dread, Las & ML, astral aim
Venerable Dread, Las & ML, astral aim
Venerable Dread, Las & ML, astral aim

Tempestor Prime W/power sword
Tempestor Prime W/power sword
5 Scions, tempestor W/power sword
5 Scions, tempestor W/power sword
5 Scions, tempestor W/power sword
5 Scions, tempestor W/power sword

Recently did well against a strong GSC list, would have tabled if we'd played turn 6.

My advice to GW for fixing GK so more list styles are playable would be(I've had several iterations of this concept)

Have a 2nd psychic table which is not affected by psychic focus.

Hammerhand
Psybolt ammo
Sanctuary

Add the following into the main psychic table.

The Shrouding
12 inch range, target unit, 12 inch bubble -1 to hit outside of 18 inches, warp charge 7

The Ageis
12 inch range, target unit, 5+ FNP to psychic mortal wounds, warp charge 6

Passive skill:

True Grit, All Grey Knights can fire storm bolters as pistols in close combat.

There you go, fixed Grey Knights







Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gunrunner1775 wrote:
thanks for the input all
been reading thru all this and found many interesting points

currently ive only been useing a small Greyknight detachment as an allied support to my ultramarines in games over 2000 points
-Brother Captain with hammer
-Voldus
-Apothecary
-Paladin Ancient
- 10x Paladins (1 squad of 10, or 2 squads of 5 depending on my mood)

one observation I have had, I get the feeling that Greyknights are not so much about psychic offensive but more about psychic defensive, ive totally shut down enemy psychic phase with all the deny the witch I have access to, and they all get +1 to deny the witch due to brotherhood of psykers.
I do have some useful psyker powers, but I found its more about denying the enemy the ability to use theirs

I am slowly expanding my GKs to a full 2000+ point list and appreciate all the input you all have given

If you take a cullexus assassin too, it becomes a completely miserable game for any army that uses psychic powers as a lynch pin, -2 to cast on top of +1 to deny is disgusting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jaxler wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

1 extra wound is not worth paying that much extra one unit that is so expensive. You are essentially paying the full premium for pysker and doing almost nothing for it.

Well, I noticed that dishing out 1 extra wound per unit can be quite a lot if you have about 10 units.
My Eldar can do generally much less damage with smite.
Moreover, a series of smite has some psychological effect on your opponent. Do not underestimate this.

What other psychic casts are useful? Astral aim, say for a Dread, if necessary, and Sanctuary for a GMNK.
I preferred to stay out of cc with my Strikes and Interceptors. Here Hammerhand would come in.

Assuming your army is only minimum strike squads, you could not run 20 units in 2000 point games.

You also will not have all of those units within 1 foot.

Also, you need to cast all of those without perils of the warping, which happens 1/18 times, which with that many casts will most likely happen and cost you wounds too.


Also congratulations, sanctuary made you NDGM good. You also made 1 dreadnought sorta better. Problem is you still have another 1600 points of stuff which is paying for spells that either suck or cannot be used. Astral aim is good, gate is good, sanctuary is good, the rest are bad.

Hammerhand is also good, especially used on larger squads of paladins with halberds.

Tempestor Prime W/power sword
Tempestor Prime W/power sword
5 Scions, tempestor W/power sword
5 Scions, tempestor W/power sword
5 Scions, tempestor W/power sword
5 Scions, tempestor W/power sword

Looks like a one-hit wonder, doesn't it?

 wuestenfux wrote:

Tempestor Prime W/power sword
Tempestor Prime W/power sword
5 Scions, tempestor W/power sword
5 Scions, tempestor W/power sword
5 Scions, tempestor W/power sword
5 Scions, tempestor W/power sword

Looks like a one-hit wonder, doesn't it?

Cheap scoring/objective sitters, theres nothing in the GK dex which can score for 49pts

Can deepstrike if required, so can reach back field objectives, you can gate a small squad of paladins or a character to support them or push an enemy objective sitter(rippers/scarabs/min units etc.) off, or wipe them with an astral aim dreadnought and then used orders to put them on the objective with move move move.

They can be used to screen your paladins against deep strikers, you can deep strike them into the best spots to achieve this when suitable. You can even move them into optimal screening positions after deep striking during the shooting phase with orders.

Generates an extra 5 CP for the GK paladin blob.

I'm not using them like you think I am, or I would be using 8 plasma gunners.

Mike712 wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

Tempestor Prime W/power sword
Tempestor Prime W/power sword
5 Scions, tempestor W/power sword
5 Scions, tempestor W/power sword
5 Scions, tempestor W/power sword
5 Scions, tempestor W/power sword

Looks like a one-hit wonder, doesn't it?

Cheap scoring/objective sitters, theres nothing in the GK dex which can score for 49pts

Can deepstrike if required, so can reach back field objectives, you can gate a small squad of paladins or a character to support them or push an enemy objective sitter(rippers/scarabs/min units etc.) off, or wipe them with an astral aim dreadnought and then used orders to put them on the objective with move move move.

They can be used to screen your paladins against deep strikers, you can deep strike them into the best spots to achieve this when suitable. You can even move them into optimal screening positions after deep striking during the shooting phase with orders.

Generates an extra 5 CP for the GK paladin blob.

I'm not using them like you think I am, or I would be using 8 plasma gunners.

Scions give you more tactical flexibility.
But my list has an overwhelming beta strike in round 2 and the enemy can do nothing against it.
Scions could help here but one has to keep in mind that only half (pointwise) of the army can deep strike.

What if they just spread chaff in front in a checkers patern. Last night a guy spread his IG army like that and I couldn't get in to 12" range on any of his tanks or castellan. Plus he was siting with some of the models on objectives. So when turn 2 came, he was already beating me on VP and first blood.

Karol wrote:
What if they just spread chaff in front in a checkers patern. Last night a guy spread his IG army like that and I couldn't get in to 12" range on any of his tanks or castellan. Plus he was siting with some of the models on objectives. So when turn 2 came, he was already beating me on VP and first blood.

Grey Knights are simply not going to win against guard with a castellan.

Since its basically the stongest list, while being super forgiving to play, its no suprise that the overall weakest codex is going to get stomped by this combo.

Your only hope is probably to have your own knight, a House Krast Crusader with The Headsman's Mark is the points & CP efficient way to counter a Castellan.

By the time you've got your guard CP batallion, obligatory Emperor's Wrath Artillery formation you're basically mirror matching, but with a GK detachment rather than some of the more common choices.

Grey Knights are simply not going to win against guard with a castellan.

Which list is going to win against guard with a castellan?
That's not a easy undertaking.

his list wasn't very optimised though. Sure it was IG and castellan, but he didn't have any tanks other then the castellan and his only heavy weapons were mortars, he run bullgryns, with slabs, but he didn't have the priests etc stuff. He told it was a casual list, he is still building up.

Plus I had the same problem with other lists too. The chaos soup player does the checker formation too, when he plays against me. Same with the orc player. Although in his case I suspect him just being an a hole, we have 1 hour to play at the shop and his turns sometimes take 40min. That is if he doesn't go out to smoke.

Karol, I hate to break it to you but you either play in the single most worst meta I've ever hold of or your exaggerating.

Yes Grey Knights are a weaker army but you seem to play at store that has punitive rules (I've never hold of a store charging money for a table or having such strict time limits). Additionally you seem to only have competitive players who are not willing to tone down their list to give you a better game and seem to not have a local gaming group outside your store. I can't imagine a more toxic 40k environment.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Karol, I hate to break it to you but you either play in the single most worst meta I've ever hold of or your exaggerating.

Yes Grey Knights are a weaker army but you seem to play at store that has punitive rules (I've never hold of a store charging money for a table or having such strict time limits). Additionally you seem to only have competitive players who are not willing to tone down their list to give you a better game and seem to not have a local gaming group outside your store. I can't imagine a more toxic 40k environment.

Judging from his story where they destroyed the miniatures of a guy from outside their town for doing well at a tournament... probably both.

 Jidmah wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Karol, I hate to break it to you but you either play in the single most worst meta I've ever hold of or your exaggerating.

Yes Grey Knights are a weaker army but you seem to play at store that has punitive rules (I've never hold of a store charging money for a table or having such strict time limits). Additionally you seem to only have competitive players who are not willing to tone down their list to give you a better game and seem to not have a local gaming group outside your store. I can't imagine a more toxic 40k environment.

Judging from his story where they destroyed the miniatures of a guy from outside their town for doing well at a tournament... probably both.

god, thats infuriating if true. i'd be outraged if someone willingly broke my minis, i'd be seeking compensation for all the money and time spent painting them.

 Jidmah wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Karol, I hate to break it to you but you either play in the single most worst meta I've ever hold of or your exaggerating.

Yes Grey Knights are a weaker army but you seem to play at store that has punitive rules (I've never hold of a store charging money for a table or having such strict time limits). Additionally you seem to only have competitive players who are not willing to tone down their list to give you a better game and seem to not have a local gaming group outside your store. I can't imagine a more toxic 40k environment.

Judging from his story where they destroyed the miniatures of a guy from outside their town for doing well at a tournament... probably both.

Ok I missed that one.

 Jidmah wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Karol, I hate to break it to you but you either play in the single most worst meta I've ever hold of or your exaggerating.

Yes Grey Knights are a weaker army but you seem to play at store that has punitive rules (I've never hold of a store charging money for a table or having such strict time limits). Additionally you seem to only have competitive players who are not willing to tone down their list to give you a better game and seem to not have a local gaming group outside your store. I can't imagine a more toxic 40k environment.

Judging from his story where they destroyed the miniatures of a guy from outside their town for doing well at a tournament... probably both.

It was at a tournament, and it was just one guy, and his opponent wasn't from our town. People don't go around here destroying each others money. Plus they didn't like each other in the first place and there was prize money involved. 400$ in cash makes people think a bit different about things they can or can not do.

Karol wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Karol, I hate to break it to you but you either play in the single most worst meta I've ever hold of or your exaggerating.

Yes Grey Knights are a weaker army but you seem to play at store that has punitive rules (I've never hold of a store charging money for a table or having such strict time limits). Additionally you seem to only have competitive players who are not willing to tone down their list to give you a better game and seem to not have a local gaming group outside your store. I can't imagine a more toxic 40k environment.

Judging from his story where they destroyed the miniatures of a guy from outside their town for doing well at a tournament... probably both.

It was at a tournament, and it was just one guy, and his opponent wasn't from our town. People don't go around here destroying each others money. Plus they didn't like each other in the first place and there was prize money involved. 400$ in cash makes people think a bit different about things they can or can not do.

Doesn't matter if it was one guy or ten. Breaking someone else's stuff because you want to is just bad behaviour - criminal even. There is no way to excuse that behaviour.

Hearing this just tells me you are playing the single-worst meta/environment I've ever heard of. I am just surprised people play 40k at all considering the atmosphere.

well technically he broke the models himself. Our guy was just smart to put his case on the table just as he put puting his off, so this way the models got catapulted when the tabled shifted.
It is hard to prove anything, but considering that the guy from the other city broke the knee of our guys brother, when they were visiting for a interschool football match, it was collectivlly considered that he knew what he was doing.

To me that is rather normal. Cracov for example is divided in to two areas controled by two fighting hooligan groups. There were people losing hands for being from the wrong district. I know that people that came from other cities always have to be on guard when they get asked which team they support, because if they name the wrong one they can get beaten up. And cracov hooligans are one of the few hooligan groups that didn't sign the "no tools" treaty. That is why it is called the city of knifes. Near me, there is bialystok where nationalists make marchs, and attack anyone who they dont think looks polish. They even set fire to a few homes of people that aren't polish. And by polish they mean a very specific person. I for example wouldn't count, because am not catholic.

Yeah, that gak's not normal

I must admit that I am very grateful for not living in a place like Karol. This stuff is... messed up.

Crispy78 wrote:
Yeah, that gak's not normal

Well I have family living in Chicago and New York, and they say it is much worse there. Here people get beaten up or sometimes stabbed, but my uncle always said that where they live people are being killed with guns on a daily basis. It is worse then Ukrain, same with UK, my mothers sister lives in Liverpool, and they are scared to go outside because of all the gangs. Here no one is scared of going out in their own district.

Karol wrote:

Crispy78 wrote:
Yeah, that gak's not normal

Well I have family living in Chicago and New York, and they say it is much worse there. Here people get beaten up or sometimes stabbed, but my uncle always said that where they live people are being killed with guns on a daily basis. It is worse then Ukrain, same with UK, my mothers sister lives in Liverpool, and they are scared to go outside because of all the gangs. Here no one is scared of going out in their own district.

Real life seems like to show some relatedness to 40k.

Karol wrote:

Crispy78 wrote:
Yeah, that gak's not normal

Well I have family living in Chicago and New York, and they say it is much worse there. Here people get beaten up or sometimes stabbed, but my uncle always said that where they live people are being killed with guns on a daily basis. It is worse then Ukrain, same with UK, my mothers sister lives in Liverpool, and they are scared to go outside because of all the gangs. Here no one is scared of going out in their own district.

Liverpool is not like that. It's literally the friendliest city in the UK. Unless you get involved with crime your fine. Even in the rough areas. Also gun violence is extremely rare in the UK. Our society is very safe, you are incredibly misinformed.

Source : Grew up on the docks in Liverpool. All my family still live there.

Source : Grew up on the docks in Liverpool. All my family still live there.

Still alive and kickin'. That's good.
After all, Klopp is also still alive.