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So I know this was brought up before, but it looks like Vigilus just made this combo easier. Cypher, 2 sorcerers (1 being warlord so still get trait) fulfills Supreme Command detachment and has Imperium keyword. So now I can expend a CP to bring an assassin to chaos quite easily. Has this not been FAQd yet?

You can also use the Fallen to summon daemons in an imperium army, so it's not the only related shenanigans.

no, if you take a sorcerer in the detachment you cant get an assassin in it.

You can only get an assassin in a chaos army by taking a fully fallen detachment (i.e. a patrol with him and some fallen troops), and then making him your warlord (which now gives him a new trait that is quite good).

 Eihnlazer wrote:
no, if you take a sorcerer in the detachment you cant get an assassin in it.

You can only get an assassin in a chaos army by taking a fully fallen detachment (i.e. a patrol with him and some fallen troops), and then making him your warlord (which now gives him a new trait that is quite good).

New book changes the above.
Vigilus detachment allows you to give Fallen keyword to sorcerers and rhinos.

Edited to not sound obnoxious (sorry, responded quickly on phone)

I thought you could only bring Assassins if your WL had the Imperium keyword? So this only works if Cypher is your WL, not one of the Sorcerers

But yeah, Assassins in Chaos armies and Daemons in Imperial armies are possible

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 Eihnlazer wrote:
no, if you take a sorcerer in the detachment you cant get an assassin in it.

You can only get an assassin in a chaos army by taking a fully fallen detachment (i.e. a patrol with him and some fallen troops), and then making him your warlord (which now gives him a new trait that is quite good).

The Assassin is bought via a Stratagem, and isn’t part of any Detachments.

 Galef wrote:
I thought you could only bring Assassins if your WL had the Imperium keyword? So this only works if Cypher is your WL, not one of the Sorcerers

But yeah, Assassins in Chaos armies and Daemons in Imperial armies are possible

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Right, but what's stopping you taking Cypher and 2 Fallen sorcerers, making one of the sorcerers your warlord?

 bullyboy wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I thought you could only bring Assassins if your WL had the Imperium keyword? So this only works if Cypher is your WL, not one of the Sorcerers

But yeah, Assassins in Chaos armies and Daemons in Imperial armies are possible

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Right, but what's stopping you taking Cypher and 2 Fallen sorcerers, making one of the sorcerers your warlord?

Nothing, by the looks of it. It would be an Imperium detachment to unlock the Strats generally and an Imperium warlord to get the Strat to pick an Assassib.

 bullyboy wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I thought you could only bring Assassins if your WL had the Imperium keyword? So this only works if Cypher is your WL, not one of the Sorcerers

But yeah, Assassins in Chaos armies and Daemons in Imperial armies are possible

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Right, but what's stopping you taking Cypher and 2 Fallen sorcerers, making one of the sorcerers your warlord?

Nothing is "stopping" you from do this. However doing that "stops" your ability to take an Assassin.

You can give Sorcerers the "Fallen" Keyword, but they do not have the IMPERIUM keyword (unless they get that too), which is what the Assassin cares about.
I'd also argue that the Detachment isn't an IMPERIUM one either, since only Cypher would have that Keyword, but not the Sorcerers, so you wouldn't even get the Strats to bring in the Assassin

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 Galef wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I thought you could only bring Assassins if your WL had the Imperium keyword? So this only works if Cypher is your WL, not one of the Sorcerers

But yeah, Assassins in Chaos armies and Daemons in Imperial armies are possible

-

Right, but what's stopping you taking Cypher and 2 Fallen sorcerers, making one of the sorcerers your warlord?

Nothing is "stopping" you from do this. However doing that "stops" your ability to take an Assassin.

You can give Sorcerers the "Fallen" Keyword, but they do not have the IMPERIUM keyword (unless they get that too), which is what the Assassin cares about.

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The detachment gives them the IMPERIUM keyword too actually.

 Galef wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I thought you could only bring Assassins if your WL had the Imperium keyword? So this only works if Cypher is your WL, not one of the Sorcerers

But yeah, Assassins in Chaos armies and Daemons in Imperial armies are possible

-

Right, but what's stopping you taking Cypher and 2 Fallen sorcerers, making one of the sorcerers your warlord?

Nothing is "stopping" you from do this. However doing that "stops" your ability to take an Assassin.

You can give Sorcerers the "Fallen" Keyword, but they do not have the IMPERIUM keyword (unless they get that too), which is what the Assassin cares about.

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They get that too.

OK....nothing to see here...carry on.

That is just WEIRD as feth, btw. But I guess it makes sense. IMPREIUM Sorcerers? Rly GW? OK

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 Galef wrote:
OK....nothing to see here...carry on.

That is just WEIRD as feth, btw.

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Grey Knight armies summoning daemons and thousand sons armies fielding culexus assasins... Don't see what is it that you find weird honestly.

 Galef wrote:
You can give Sorcerers the "Fallen" Keyword, but they do not have the IMPERIUM keyword (unless they get that too), which is what the Assassin cares about.

Yeah, and to be fair, I don't see a lot of point in having a Fallen detachment with Sorcerers. In that case you're really only using the offensive powers, because the buffs are all tied to Marks or Heretic Astartes keywords. I think probably the easiest way to accomplish the Fallen > Assassin combo is really just a simple Vanguard detachment. For 290 points you can get Cypher and 3 squads of Fallen, which is probably about as cheap as you can make that.

Edit: I didn't see that it gave them the Imperium keyword, that is very interesting. Although it really doesn't change the point about including Sorcerers.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Galef wrote:
You can give Sorcerers the "Fallen" Keyword, but they do not have the IMPERIUM keyword (unless they get that too), which is what the Assassin cares about.

Yeah, and to be fair, I don't see a lot of point in having a Fallen detachment with Sorcerers. In that case you're really only using the offensive powers, because the buffs are all tied to Marks or Heretic Astartes keywords. I think probably the easiest way to accomplish the Fallen > Assassin combo is really just a simple Vanguard detachment. For 290 points you can get Cypher and 3 squads of Fallen, which is probably about as cheap as you can make that.

Edit: I didn't see that it gave them the Imperium keyword, that is very interesting. Although it really doesn't change the point about including Sorcerers.

Don't see the problem, we can buff the heretic astartes in our other detachments. This is about taking the Fallen into chaos to get access to assassins, not the other thing.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Galef wrote:
You can give Sorcerers the "Fallen" Keyword, but they do not have the IMPERIUM keyword (unless they get that too), which is what the Assassin cares about.

Yeah, and to be fair, I don't see a lot of point in having a Fallen detachment with Sorcerers. In that case you're really only using the offensive powers, because the buffs are all tied to Marks or Heretic Astartes keywords. I think probably the easiest way to accomplish the Fallen > Assassin combo is really just a simple Vanguard detachment. For 290 points you can get Cypher and 3 squads of Fallen, which is probably about as cheap as you can make that.

Edit: I didn't see that it gave them the Imperium keyword, that is very interesting. Although it really doesn't change the point about including Sorcerers.

??? You have the Fallen Detachment as described above and a regular chaos army. You then get the assassin and have regular chaos taking advantage of sorcerer powers.

 bullyboy wrote:
??? You have the Fallen Detachment as described above and a regular chaos army. You then get the assassin and have regular chaos taking advantage of sorcerer powers.

I agree, it's feasible, and potentially more useful than Cypher I guess, although slightly more expensive. Although with 15 Fallen he's shutting down CP regen within 18", which against a typical Guard CP battery will not be that useful, but could still be pretty effective against more mobile CP batteries.

I don't have codex with me, what is points of Cypher and 2 sorcerers with force swords and bps? Should be a fairly cheap detachment + the 85pts for the assassin

 bullyboy wrote:
I don't have codex with me, what is points of Cypher and 2 sorcerers with force swords and bps? Should be a fairly cheap detachment + the 85pts for the assassin

Minned out, it's 276 points, but at that point you're really just including Cypher as a tax since I think the 12" range on his ability is not very useful. At least in a Vanguard with Fallen he might do something other than be a tax, 18" gives you a much better chance for his ability to actually come into play. In that case I'd almost say just get 3 Sorcerers, Nurgle, Tzeentch, Slaanesh and make it your buffing detachment.

You can only bring Sorcerers and Rhinos in a Vanguard detachment, you can't just do a Supreme Command.

Lanlaorn wrote:
You can only bring Sorcerers and Rhinos in a Vanguard detachment, you can't just do a Supreme Command.

Is that another speculation of the Vigilus detachment?

Just found a copy online. Yep, it looks like it must be a vanguard.

 Drachii wrote:
You can also use the Fallen to summon daemons in an imperium army, so it's not the only related shenanigans.

They errated that out of existence with Cypher ages ago.

Page 121 – Cypher, AbilitiesAdd the following ability:‘No-one’s Puppet: Cypher cannot use the Daemonic Ritual ability, even though he has the Chaos and Character keywords.'

 Grimtuff wrote:
They errated that out of existence with Cypher ages ago.

Yes, but not with Fallen Sorcerers.

If you want to get extra fun you can take a Vanguard with Cypher + Sorcerer and a bunch of Fallen then summon a Daemon Prince to assist your Imperial Army in battle. At least from what we know of the rules so far. The DP won't have the Imperium keyword but he doesn't get summoned until after the battle commences so that's not an issue.

Audustum wrote:
If you want to get extra fun you can take a Vanguard with Cypher + Sorcerer and a bunch of Fallen then summon a Daemon Prince to assist your Imperial Army in battle. At least from what we know of the rules so far. The DP won't have the Imperium keyword but he doesn't get summoned until after the battle commences so that's not an issue.

There's a lot of simple stuff you can summon just for minor abilities also. Infernal Enrapturess is 80 points, remarkably, almost the same price as an Assassin and is basically auto-summon. Now you have it's ranged weapon, which isn't bad, but more importantly you have it's psychic debuff, which could be very situationally useful. I'm sure there's some combo there that's actually cool.

Doesn't your WARLORD need to be IMPERIUM to allow you to use the Assassin stratagem and my understanding is that Cypher can't be a warlord under any circumstances?

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
They errated that out of existence with Cypher ages ago.

Yes, but not with Fallen Sorcerers.

And what exactly makes you think they won't close that loophole (or haven't already. The book isn't even out yet, remember?) with them too?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Doesn't your WARLORD need to be IMPERIUM to allow you to use the Assassin stratagem and my understanding is that Cypher can't be a warlord under any circumstances?

Cypher can be your Warlord, but he cannot have a warlord trait.

 Grimtuff wrote:
And what exactly makes you think they won't close that loophole (or haven't already. The book isn't even out yet, remember?) with them too?

Oh, I expect it to get closed, it's more just an interesting thought experiment, although letting it run that way for awhile might be fun just to see all the whacky combos people come up with. Every list I've tried to build with a Fallen detachment just feels like some sort of weird Frankenlist with no cohesive theme/plan/strategy.

Audustum wrote:
If you want to get extra fun you can take a Vanguard with Cypher + Sorcerer and a bunch of Fallen then summon a Daemon Prince to assist your Imperial Army in battle. At least from what we know of the rules so far. The DP won't have the Imperium keyword but he doesn't get summoned until after the battle commences so that's not an issue.

Assuming you can, it's only a Chaos Daemons DP. None of the others have Daemonic Ritual.

 Grimtuff wrote:
Cypher can be your Warlord, but he cannot have a warlord trait.

This is the case currently, they aren't exactly clear in the preview whether his 'Agent of Discord' ability is a Warlord trait, a detachment function, who knows.