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BrianDavion wrote:all those examples mind you are a single Custodes. so we can't say for sure if all custodes have changed or this one is just a partiucalrly notable prick
Agreed, but seeing as we don't really see any other Custodes from 40k, this is the only depiction we have of how Custodes behave in 40k instead of 30k.
Maybe it's the case that Custodes are actually diverse and aren't just "they're all respectful and tactful/they're all arrogant" - which is what I'd hope. However, it was necessary to point out that not all Custodes are pleasant company, and that gap seems to be between 30k and 40k.
Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Crazyterran wrote: Give me an actual example then rather than 'lol ultramarines are arrogant, no you biased'.
"Guilliman turns the stylus in his hand, thoughtful. It takes discipline to die in such numbers. It is one
of the reasons that a bladed T’Vanti cordulus hangs on his compartment wall. He believes he has the
most disciplined military force in the Imperium, and given the quality of the other Legions, that is
quite a claim. Still, he is not sure even his Ultramarines would display such a deep degree of
discipline, such a T’Vanti degree."
There is one for example. The Ultramarines aren't arrogant, give me a break.
The quote where he literally says himself that the Ultramarines aren't as disciplined as a xenos race is supposed to show his arrogance? What?
Plus, I don't think Guilliman's claim is far wrong. Most disciplined Legion? That's not saying his are the best Legion, and it's not hard to think his are the most disciplined anyways? Imperial Fists, Emperor's Children, Iron Hands, Dark Angels? Maybe, but are they more disciplined than the Ultramarines? Those five are certainly the most disciplined, so it's not hard to see where Guilliman's coming from. Sure, Custodes, but are they a military force in the same way the Legions are?
It's not like he's standing up to the Grey Knights and Inquisition (Space Wolves), or for murdering Administratum officials who come to check on your geneseed tithes (Astral Claws). He's simply saying "my guys are the most disciplined military force, but these xenos are better".
Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Not so, no other legion or army has more stringent training.
What? What on earth does this have to do with the Custodes we see in newer 40k books being arrogant?
Yeah, Custodes are awesome, but they ain't all humble and nice like you seem to be making out.
Give us an example of the Custodes in Dark Imperium being arrogant then?
Ask, and ye shall receive:
Plague War wrote:‘We are done here.’ The primarch’s rage turned off. The heat left the room. He seemed smaller again.
‘Watch your step, priest,’ said Colquan. ‘The Lord Guilliman might not move against you, but there is nothing stopping me.’
‘Colquan,’ said Guilliman. ‘Enough.’
Colquan pointed at Mathieu. ‘I am watching you.’
‘Colquan!’ Guilliman went to the door.
As we see, a clear lack of tact, and actually requires Guilliman to shut him up.
Dark Imperium wrote:‘And Tribune Maldovar Colquan of the Heiratokoi leads this delegation from the Adeptus Custodes.’
Calgar bowed. ‘It is an honour to stand before someone who personally serves the Emperor.’
‘I serve whether I am away from the Imperial Palace or within it,’ said the tribune, a retort to an insult that had not been delivered. His voice was unfriendly through his voxmitter.
Complete lack of any kind of political politeness or tact.
Plague War wrote:‘Let him come. I’ll happily show him my skill with a blade,’ said the Custodian, Colquan.
Cute line, but considering that at this moment, he's in a war council with Guilliman, Sicarius, Felix, and Sisters of Silence, and HE'S the one who goes for the whole "I'm gonna stab him" line, it's completely out of character for the 30k Custodians.
I'd like to hope this gives you cause to reconsider. Again, this doesn't take away from the 30k Custodes - it's only to show that even the Custodes, over 10,000 years, have changed too.
Delvarus Centurion wrote:When they breathe.
Bit hyperbolic there. Come on, give us some sources.
All your quotes just proved what I said, they have no consideration for tact, you need a quote that shows that with context like the author saying 'as the custodes thinks he's better than...' All you have shown is they have no tact and are abrupt. Master of Mankind explains why that is.
Seriously? You can't tell from those descriptions and simply how that Custodian is talking that he doesn't care about anyone else in the room bar himself. He derails a tactical meeting to make a quippy remark, he tries to make a comeback retort against Calgar who doesn't even insult him, and outright says that he's unfriendly (which is far from what I'd expect from the Custodians from MoM), threatens a priest who has literally been screamed at, and almost killed by Guilliman, and then keeps threatening him despite Guilliman making very clear that it's not necessary, and generally not behaving with the same kind of "living to serve and serve alone" attitude they have in the HH. Which is fine, and doesn't detract from their HH portrayals at all. All I'm saying is that either there's a shift in attitudes between 30k and 40k Custodes (which doesn't affect your "30k Custodes are great!" opinion), or that Custodes have more personality than just "they're all totally not arrogant and live to serve nobly".
It's totally possible to have arrogant Custodes, like you can have arrogant anybodys.
BrianDavion wrote:all those examples mind you are a single Custodes. so we can't say for sure if all custodes have changed or this one is just a partiucalrly notable prick
Agreed, but seeing as we don't really see any other Custodes from 40k, this is the only depiction we have of how Custodes behave in 40k instead of 30k.
Maybe it's the case that Custodes are actually diverse and aren't just "they're all respectful and tactful/they're all arrogant" - which is what I'd hope. However, it was necessary to point out that not all Custodes are pleasant company, and that gap seems to be between 30k and 40k.
Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Crazyterran wrote: Give me an actual example then rather than 'lol ultramarines are arrogant, no you biased'.
"Guilliman turns the stylus in his hand, thoughtful. It takes discipline to die in such numbers. It is one
of the reasons that a bladed T’Vanti cordulus hangs on his compartment wall. He believes he has the
most disciplined military force in the Imperium, and given the quality of the other Legions, that is
quite a claim. Still, he is not sure even his Ultramarines would display such a deep degree of
discipline, such a T’Vanti degree."
There is one for example. The Ultramarines aren't arrogant, give me a break.
The quote where he literally says himself that the Ultramarines aren't as disciplined as a xenos race is supposed to show his arrogance? What?
Plus, I don't think Guilliman's claim is far wrong. Most disciplined Legion? That's not saying his are the best Legion, and it's not hard to think his are the most disciplined anyways? Imperial Fists, Emperor's Children, Iron Hands, Dark Angels? Maybe, but are they more disciplined than the Ultramarines? Those five are certainly the most disciplined, so it's not hard to see where Guilliman's coming from. Sure, Custodes, but are they a military force in the same way the Legions are?
It's not like he's standing up to the Grey Knights and Inquisition (Space Wolves), or for murdering Administratum officials who come to check on your geneseed tithes (Astral Claws). He's simply saying "my guys are the most disciplined military force, but these xenos are better".
Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Not so, no other legion or army has more stringent training.
What? What on earth does this have to do with the Custodes we see in newer 40k books being arrogant?
Yeah, Custodes are awesome, but they ain't all humble and nice like you seem to be making out.
Give us an example of the Custodes in Dark Imperium being arrogant then?
Ask, and ye shall receive:
Plague War wrote:‘We are done here.’ The primarch’s rage turned off. The heat left the room. He seemed smaller again.
‘Watch your step, priest,’ said Colquan. ‘The Lord Guilliman might not move against you, but there is nothing stopping me.’
‘Colquan,’ said Guilliman. ‘Enough.’
Colquan pointed at Mathieu. ‘I am watching you.’
‘Colquan!’ Guilliman went to the door.
As we see, a clear lack of tact, and actually requires Guilliman to shut him up.
Dark Imperium wrote:‘And Tribune Maldovar Colquan of the Heiratokoi leads this delegation from the Adeptus Custodes.’
Calgar bowed. ‘It is an honour to stand before someone who personally serves the Emperor.’
‘I serve whether I am away from the Imperial Palace or within it,’ said the tribune, a retort to an insult that had not been delivered. His voice was unfriendly through his voxmitter.
Complete lack of any kind of political politeness or tact.
Plague War wrote:‘Let him come. I’ll happily show him my skill with a blade,’ said the Custodian, Colquan.
Cute line, but considering that at this moment, he's in a war council with Guilliman, Sicarius, Felix, and Sisters of Silence, and HE'S the one who goes for the whole "I'm gonna stab him" line, it's completely out of character for the 30k Custodians.
I'd like to hope this gives you cause to reconsider. Again, this doesn't take away from the 30k Custodes - it's only to show that even the Custodes, over 10,000 years, have changed too.
Delvarus Centurion wrote:When they breathe.
Bit hyperbolic there. Come on, give us some sources.
All your quotes just proved what I said, they have no consideration for tact, you need a quote that shows that with context like the author saying 'as the custodes thinks he's better than...' All you have shown is they have no tact and are abrupt. Master of Mankind explains why that is.
Seriously? You can't tell from those descriptions and simply how that Custodian is talking that he doesn't care about anyone else in the room bar himself. He derails a tactical meeting to make a quippy remark, he tries to make a comeback retort against Calgar who doesn't even insult him, and outright says that he's unfriendly (which is far from what I'd expect from the Custodians from MoM), threatens a priest who has literally been screamed at, and almost killed by Guilliman, and then keeps threatening him despite Guilliman making very clear that it's not necessary, and generally not behaving with the same kind of "living to serve and serve alone" attitude they have in the HH. Which is fine, and doesn't detract from their HH portrayals at all. All I'm saying is that either there's a shift in attitudes between 30k and 40k Custodes (which doesn't affect your "30k Custodes are great!" opinion), or that Custodes have more personality than just "they're all totally not arrogant and live to serve nobly".
It's totally possible to have arrogant Custodes, like you can have arrogant anybodys.
And if those are the only instances than you can't come to any other conclusion about their behaviour than that of Emperor of Mankind. If you give an instance where the writer says 'they no longer act like that and are arrogant etc.' then I would have to concede.
He believes they are the most disciplined over any other legion or army in the whole imperium, its pretty arrogant, especially considering Dorn's sons.
No, the Custodes only answer to the Emperor, even a Primarch has no authority over them. Nor should he care about anyone in the room other than his duty. Again their behaviour is explained in Master of Mankind, without that explanation then yes it would seem insanely arrogant. The Emperor loved the Custodes above all else because they served, they didn't seek glory etc. I mean they stand still for a century guarding over the Emperor, they aren't like Astartes, they are kind of like servitors in a way in their duty. They can probably be prone to arrogance on an individual level, as an arrogant person would enjoy their abrupt duty first way. But I wouldn't agree that 'they' are arrogant. I mean their army is based on serving.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2019/03/31 22:56:31
Delvarus Centurion wrote: And if those are the only instances than you can't come to any other conclusion about their behaviour than that of Emperor of Mankind. If you give an instance where the writer says 'they no longer act like that and are arrogant etc.' then I would have to concede.
Do you literally need verbatim proof from the author to confirm it? It literally outright says that he's unfriendly, and responds to an insult that never gets issued. That should be more than enough proof that Colquan is arrogant and feels himself to be self-important over the others.
In that same respect, do you have a verbatim quote from an author saying "the Ultramarines are the most arrogant Space Marines"?
He believes they are the most disciplined over any other legion or army in the whole imperium, its pretty arrogant, especially considering Dorn's sons.
But look at quotes from other Legions. The Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus make several jokes about characters who act in very disciplined ways (like Loken) as being more like Ultramarines than Sons of Horus. The Imperial Fists, on the other hand, are seen more as dour and just lacking in humour - not extremely disciplined. That's not to say they're not, but considering it's the Ultramarines who are noted for it by other Legions, it's hard to deny that the other Legions also don't see the UM as the most disciplined. The only ones I can really see knocking the UM from that crown would be the EC or DA.
No, the Custodes only answer to the Emperor, even a Primarch has no authority over them. Nor should he care about anyone in the room other than his duty. Again their behaviour is explained in Master of Mankind, without that explanation then yes it would seem insanely arrogant. The Emperor loved the Custodes above all else because they served, they didn't seek glory etc. I mean they stand still for a century guarding over the Emperor, they aren't like Astartes, they are kind of like servitors in a way in their duty.
>didn't seek glory Colquan literally makes boast about his swordplay in an official military briefing, and also threatens a priest who has already been dressed down aggressively by Guilliman. Maybe Colquan isn't indicative of all Custodes, but he proves that not all Custodes are like how they're described in MoM. They can be just as arrogant and self-superior as the most haughty Ultramarine or truculent Space Wolf. Sorry to disappoint.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/31 23:01:22
Delvarus Centurion wrote: And if those are the only instances than you can't come to any other conclusion about their behaviour than that of Emperor of Mankind. If you give an instance where the writer says 'they no longer act like that and are arrogant etc.' then I would have to concede.
Do you literally need verbatim proof from the author to confirm it? It literally outright says that he's unfriendly, and responds to an insult that never gets issued. That should be more than enough proof that Colquan is arrogant and feels himself to be self-important over the others.
In that same respect, do you have a verbatim quote from an author saying "the Ultramarines are the most arrogant Space Marines"?
He believes they are the most disciplined over any other legion or army in the whole imperium, its pretty arrogant, especially considering Dorn's sons.
But look at quotes from other Legions. The Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus make several jokes about characters who act in very disciplined ways (like Loken) as being more like Ultramarines than Sons of Horus. The Imperial Fists, on the other hand, are seen more as dour and just lacking in humour - not extremely disciplined. That's not to say they're not, but considering it's the Ultramarines who are noted for it by other Legions, it's hard to deny that the other Legions also don't see the UM as the most disciplined. The only ones I can really see knocking the UM from that crown would be the EC or DA.
No, the Custodes only answer to the Emperor, even a Primarch has no authority over them. Nor should he care about anyone in the room other than his duty. Again their behaviour is explained in Master of Mankind, without that explanation then yes it would seem insanely arrogant. The Emperor loved the Custodes above all else because they served, they didn't seek glory etc. I mean they stand still for a century guarding over the Emperor, they aren't like Astartes, they are kind of like servitors in a way in their duty.
>didn't seek glory
Colquan literally makes boast about his swordplay in an official military briefing, and also threatens a priest who has already been dressed down aggressively by Guilliman. Maybe Colquan isn't indicative of all Custodes, but he proves that not all Custodes are like how they're described in MoM. They can be just as arrogant and self-superior as the most haughty Ultramarine or truculent Space Wolf. Sorry to disappoint.
regarding custodes in 40k, we actually see others in Watchers on the Throne, one of whom didn't strike me as excessivly arrogant.
Even Colquan I'd say is using his arrogance as a shield against feelings of inadaquacy. his retort to Calgar, his agressive "yeah I'll kill em" styled statement. His joining down in the dogpiling of the preist, I think what we're actually seeing in insecurity. the Custodes have spent the last ten thousand years doing well... nothing. I think some of them, feel a little ashamed about it, Colquan is using arrogance to mask and compensate for a sense of insecuity that they did effectively let the IoM down. this is why he was so fast to point out to Calgar that "I'M SERVING! ALWAYS HAVE BEEN! I'VE NOTHING TO BE ASHAMED ABOUT!"
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Crazyterran wrote: Give me an actual example then rather than 'lol ultramarines are arrogant, no you biased'.
"Guilliman turns the stylus in his hand, thoughtful. It takes discipline to die in such numbers. It is one
of the reasons that a bladed T’Vanti cordulus hangs on his compartment wall. He believes he has the
most disciplined military force in the Imperium, and given the quality of the other Legions, that is
quite a claim. Still, he is not sure even his Ultramarines would display such a deep degree of
discipline, such a T’Vanti degree."
There is one for example, also Matt Ward. The Ultramarines aren't arrogant, give me a break.
Crazyterran wrote: Give me an actual example then rather than 'lol ultramarines are arrogant, no you biased'.
"Guilliman turns the stylus in his hand, thoughtful. It takes discipline to die in such numbers. It is one
of the reasons that a bladed T’Vanti cordulus hangs on his compartment wall. He believes he has the
most disciplined military force in the Imperium, and given the quality of the other Legions, that is
quite a claim. Still, he is not sure even his Ultramarines would display such a deep degree of
discipline, such a T’Vanti degree."
There is one for example, also Matt Ward. The Ultramarines aren't arrogant, give me a break.
That's not arrogant, that's an observation.
if you want an example of ARROGANT legions, I'd argue the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus are a better bet
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Both Watchers of the Throne and Auric Gods portray 40k-era Custodes who are emphatically not arrogant douchebags.
I think BrianDavion is dead right about Colquan using arrogance to cover his feelings of inadequacy. But in addition to the general shame all Custodes feel for letting the Emperor get seven shades kicked out of him by Horus, and for sitting and sulking on Terra for ten millennia, Colquan also bears the personal shame of being sent away. Custodes measure their personal worth by proximity to the Emperor. The best of the best guard the Throne Room. The second best guard the Palace. For ten thousand years, only those who were too old or slow to be trusted guarding Terra any longer got sent out into the wider Imperium. It will take the Custodes some time to get used to the idea that being sent away from Terra isn't a mark of failure.
A little bit of righteous anger now and then is good, actually. Don't trust a person who never gets angry.
Are there any Custodes left from the Crusading era's? One has to wonder, with their martial prowess and lack of of field engagements and prolonged tours of campaign in relation to the Space Marines, there's bound to be at least a few 10,000 year old Custodes left, right? Unless Custodes can age of course.
I will forever remain humble because I know I could have less.
I will always be grateful because I remember I've had less.
What on earth does this have to do with the Custodes we see in newer 
