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Since 5th edition we've had split firing long fangs, ignore cover long fangs, devastators getting chapter tactics while the rest of the game didn't, skyhammer formation devastators, grav cannon devastators, and magical fething ammo baby, and everyone's just like "meh?"
havocs finally get some kind of something that makes them not just "whatever the loyalist thing is, but with less wargear options and less special rules" and suddenly it's "MUH IMMERSION!"
newsflash: the stats of every single model in the game do not perfectly align with the stats of every other model in the game.
slightly beefy drukhari wracks and weird spindly octopus-frankensteins are T5.
Giant purple incredible hulks with crab claws and sledgehammers are T4
Necrons with slightly bigger shoulderpads are T5.
Giant crisis suits and necron warriors are T4.
Toughness, Wounds and Save are obviously all factored in by GW when it comes to calculating durability and sometimes, you even get some other random rules thrown in there like an invuln save, feel no pain, etc. T4 W2 seems comically flimsy for something as beefy as an Aberrant, but that's because their FNP save also exists to represent their toughness.
T5 vs T4 matters a minuscule amount of the time on a model with Sv3+ and long range weapons. 99% of the time if they get shot, they're getting shot by some kind of long range anti elite weapon that's going to wound them on a 3 regardless.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
No, it would be an ad hominem argument if I was claiming that your opinion had to be wrong because you're bitter and resentful. But that isn't what I've claimed at all. Your opinion is wrong because the changes to Havocs are not the massive net buff you seem to think they are, and because the changes do in fact fit with the unit's fluff description. I merely suggested that some (quite understandable) bitterness about GW's treatment of your army might have coloured your view of the Havoc changes, but that's tangential to the actual argument.
Frankly, given your bizarrely hostile reaction to my attempt to find some common ground over the issue of Ork toughness not being reflected in the rules (a comparison you brought up, BTW), I feel no need to revise my opinion of your emotional state.
And I will point out that it wasn't me who said this:
An Actual Englishman wrote:I think people are always happy to have 'random, arbitrary rules' [read - massive buff] when its their army in question.
If you're going to accuse others of basically being hypocrites and rationalizing buffs to their own army, you don't get to act all righteous when someone suggests you're coming across as a bit hostile.
A little bit of righteous anger now and then is good, actually. Don't trust a person who never gets angry.
Since 5th edition we've had split firing long fangs, ignore cover long fangs, devastators getting chapter tactics while the rest of the game didn't, skyhammer formation devastators, grav cannon devastators, and magical fething ammo baby, and everyone's just like "meh?"
havocs finally get some kind of something that makes them not just "whatever the loyalist thing is, but with less wargear options and less special rules" and suddenly it's "MUH IMMERSION!"
newsflash: the stats of every single model in the game do not perfectly align with the stats of every other model in the game.
slightly beefy drukhari wracks and weird spindly octopus-frankensteins are T5.
Giant purple incredible hulks with crab claws and sledgehammers are T4
Necrons with slightly bigger shoulderpads are T5.
Giant crisis suits and necron warriors are T4.
Toughness, Wounds and Save are obviously all factored in by GW when it comes to calculating durability and sometimes, you even get some other random rules thrown in there like an invuln save, feel no pain, etc. T4 W2 seems comically flimsy for something as beefy as an Aberrant, but that's because their FNP save also exists to represent their toughness.
T5 vs T4 matters a minuscule amount of the time on a model with Sv3+ and long range weapons. 99% of the time if they get shot, they're getting shot by some kind of long range anti elite weapon that's going to wound them on a 3 regardless.
Some days we strongly disagree on things and other days I want to marry you. Today is the latter.
No, it would be an ad hominem argument if I was claiming that your opinion had to be wrong because you're bitter and resentful. But that isn't what I've claimed at all.
Reheheally?
Duskweaver wrote: Yeah, as a Chaos player, I can be accused of bias. But your bitterness as an Ork player is just as obvious a bias. I think you have every right to be annoyed that GW keeps screwing up your army, but that's no excuse for getting huffy that other armies are getting nice things.
Not sure what that is if not the definition of ad hominem.
I haven't got time to debate with people who mislead, lie and argue in bad faith. I have better things to do with my time.
I'm tempted to respond to Scotsman about how 'T5 isn't really that much of a buff, because people only shoot "elite killing weapons" at Havocs apparently. No deep striking units in this game. No sirree.
T4-T5 is literally one of the best buffs in the game. The vast majority of infantry killing weapons are Str4, most infantry designed to be in cqc hits at str 4. Wasting high value shots on Havocs means they earn their points back regardless because I'm not firing at those other, juicier targets that are acting with impunity.
No, it would be an ad hominem argument if I was claiming that your opinion had to be wrong because you're bitter and resentful. But that isn't what I've claimed at all.
Reheheally?
Duskweaver wrote: Yeah, as a Chaos player, I can be accused of bias. But your bitterness as an Ork player is just as obvious a bias. I think you have every right to be annoyed that GW keeps screwing up your army, but that's no excuse for getting huffy that other armies are getting nice things.
Not sure what that is if not the definition of ad hominem.
I haven't got time to debate with people who mislead, lie and argue in bad faith. I have better things to do with my time.
This is 100% Ad Hominem by the way.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/01 13:55:42
Since 5th edition we've had split firing long fangs, ignore cover long fangs, devastators getting chapter tactics while the rest of the game didn't, skyhammer formation devastators, grav cannon devastators, and magical fething ammo baby, and everyone's just like "meh?"
havocs finally get some kind of something that makes them not just "whatever the loyalist thing is, but with less wargear options and less special rules" and suddenly it's "MUH IMMERSION!"
newsflash: the stats of every single model in the game do not perfectly align with the stats of every other model in the game.
slightly beefy drukhari wracks and weird spindly octopus-frankensteins are T5.
Giant purple incredible hulks with crab claws and sledgehammers are T4
Necrons with slightly bigger shoulderpads are T5.
Giant crisis suits and necron warriors are T4.
Toughness, Wounds and Save are obviously all factored in by GW when it comes to calculating durability and sometimes, you even get some other random rules thrown in there like an invuln save, feel no pain, etc. T4 W2 seems comically flimsy for something as beefy as an Aberrant, but that's because their FNP save also exists to represent their toughness.
T5 vs T4 matters a minuscule amount of the time on a model with Sv3+ and long range weapons. 99% of the time if they get shot, they're getting shot by some kind of long range anti elite weapon that's going to wound them on a 3 regardless.
Exactly, look at Eldars rules. They break all the rules in regards to the ridiculous stuff they get for their units and no one cares. A lower tier army gets something and everyone blows their minds.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/01 14:29:21
No, it would be an ad hominem argument if I was claiming that your opinion had to be wrong because you're bitter and resentful. But that isn't what I've claimed at all.
Reheheally?
Duskweaver wrote: Yeah, as a Chaos player, I can be accused of bias. But your bitterness as an Ork player is just as obvious a bias. I think you have every right to be annoyed that GW keeps screwing up your army, but that's no excuse for getting huffy that other armies are getting nice things.
Not sure what that is if not the definition of ad hominem.
I haven't got time to debate with people who mislead, lie and argue in bad faith. I have better things to do with my time.
This is 100% Ad Hominem by the way.
No, I'm stating facts. Facts that can be evidenced in this very thread.
Since 5th edition we've had split firing long fangs, ignore cover long fangs, devastators getting chapter tactics while the rest of the game didn't, skyhammer formation devastators, grav cannon devastators, and magical fething ammo baby, and everyone's just like "meh?"
havocs finally get some kind of something that makes them not just "whatever the loyalist thing is, but with less wargear options and less special rules" and suddenly it's "MUH IMMERSION!"
newsflash: the stats of every single model in the game do not perfectly align with the stats of every other model in the game.
slightly beefy drukhari wracks and weird spindly octopus-frankensteins are T5.
Giant purple incredible hulks with crab claws and sledgehammers are T4
Necrons with slightly bigger shoulderpads are T5.
Giant crisis suits and necron warriors are T4.
Toughness, Wounds and Save are obviously all factored in by GW when it comes to calculating durability and sometimes, you even get some other random rules thrown in there like an invuln save, feel no pain, etc. T4 W2 seems comically flimsy for something as beefy as an Aberrant, but that's because their FNP save also exists to represent their toughness.
T5 vs T4 matters a minuscule amount of the time on a model with Sv3+ and long range weapons. 99% of the time if they get shot, they're getting shot by some kind of long range anti elite weapon that's going to wound them on a 3 regardless.
Exactly, look at Eldars rules. They break all the rules for their units and no one cares. A lower tier army gets something and everyone blows their minds.
Not really? This has nothing to do with the 'tier' of CSM. It's to do with an imbalance of their specialists' rules next to all others.
Most long range elite killing weaponry is Str 8, it now wounds on 3s rather than 2s. That alone is massive.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/01 14:30:33
Exactly, look at Eldars rules. They break all the rules for their units and no one cares. A lower tier army gets something and everyone blows their minds.
It depends on *how* they break the rules.
Scorpions "Break the rules" by having +1 to hit units in Cover. For a unit that's super-specialized on murdering units in cover. Nobody complains about that one.
A big part of it, for me, is that Scorpions aren't "Guardians kitted to chop people with chainswords." That's Storm Guardians. Scorpions are a very different unit focused on doing one thing, to the exclusion of all others.
Aspect Warriors, in general, are specialists in an absurdly-specific way. So, having specialist rules that fit them makes sense.
(That said, complain about Spears being too good, Fire Dragons not needing Assured Destruction, or Dire Avenger Exarchs being free, and I'll complain with you).
The complaints about Havoks for some (myself included) is about Havoks being Devs who drink blood and whatnot. They're Chaos Marines in a unit focused on heavy weapons. So they should have Chaos Marines (T4) with more Heavy Weapon options.
Similarly, if you gave Storm Guardians the Banshee's Acrobatics or the Scorpion's +1-to-hit-cover-units, I'd complain. If you gave my Devastator Marines +1T, I'd complain. It's not "CWE get special rules, Marines don't". It's "differently-skilled/trained/kitted/etc CWE get special rules, same-skilled/trained/etc but different kitted-CWE don't, differently-skilled/trained/kitted/etc Chaos Marines do (Oblits, Posessesd, Cult Troops, etc), and same-skilled/trained/etc but different-kitted Marines shouldn't (CSM, Havoks, Raptors)."
People are moaning that they get T5 and move and fire, I may be biased but I think that's the only way GW are going to actually fix the rules and balance out the armies, units need random arbitrary rules to make them better.
The only way...
Improving Havocs and leaving Devastators as they are is a bit stupid if you ask me.
Devastators have the Cherub and Signum to make them better at camping whereas Havocs are more mobile.
Since 5th edition we've had split firing long fangs, ignore cover long fangs, devastators getting chapter tactics while the rest of the game didn't, skyhammer formation devastators, grav cannon devastators, and magical fething ammo baby, and everyone's just like "meh?"
havocs finally get some kind of something that makes them not just "whatever the loyalist thing is, but with less wargear options and less special rules" and suddenly it's "MUH IMMERSION!"
newsflash: the stats of every single model in the game do not perfectly align with the stats of every other model in the game.
slightly beefy drukhari wracks and weird spindly octopus-frankensteins are T5.
Giant purple incredible hulks with crab claws and sledgehammers are T4
Necrons with slightly bigger shoulderpads are T5.
Giant crisis suits and necron warriors are T4.
Toughness, Wounds and Save are obviously all factored in by GW when it comes to calculating durability and sometimes, you even get some other random rules thrown in there like an invuln save, feel no pain, etc. T4 W2 seems comically flimsy for something as beefy as an Aberrant, but that's because their FNP save also exists to represent their toughness.
T5 vs T4 matters a minuscule amount of the time on a model with Sv3+ and long range weapons. 99% of the time if they get shot, they're getting shot by some kind of long range anti elite weapon that's going to wound them on a 3 regardless.
Exactly, look at Eldars rules. They break all the rules in regards to the ridiculous stuff they get for their units and no one cares. A lower tier army gets something and everyone blows their minds.
Did you read the other thread? We had players complaining because Havocs are more unique now instead of being Loyalist but worse!
Exactly, look at Eldars rules. They break all the rules for their units and no one cares. A lower tier army gets something and everyone blows their minds.
It depends on *how* they break the rules.
Scorpions "Break the rules" by having +1 to hit units in Cover. For a unit that's super-specialized on murdering units in cover. Nobody complains about that one.
A big part of it, for me, is that Scorpions aren't "Guardians kitted to chop people with chainswords." That's Storm Guardians. Scorpions are a very different unit focused on doing one thing, to the exclusion of all others.
Aspect Warriors, in general, are specialists in an absurdly-specific way. So, having specialist rules that fit them makes sense.
(That said, complain about Spears being too good, Fire Dragons not needing Assured Destruction, or Dire Avenger Exarchs being free, and I'll complain with you).
The complaints about Havoks for some (myself included) is about Havoks being Devs who drink blood and whatnot. They're Chaos Marines in a unit focused on heavy weapons. So they should have Chaos Marines (T4) with more Heavy Weapon options.
Similarly, if you gave Storm Guardians the Banshee's Acrobatics or the Scorpion's +1-to-hit-cover-units, I'd complain. If you gave my Devastator Marines +1T, I'd complain. It's not "CWE get special rules, Marines don't". It's "differently-skilled/trained/kitted/etc CWE get special rules, same-skilled/trained/etc but different kitted-CWE don't, differently-skilled/trained/kitted/etc Chaos Marines do (Oblits, Posessesd, Cult Troops, etc), and same-skilled/trained/etc but different-kitted Marines shouldn't (CSM, Havoks, Raptors)."
*That* is the argument I've been making.
Except those Chaos Marines don't get the Signum and Cherub. For reasons. Even though the Signum is free too.
You seriously need to get over it. The differentiation is a blessing.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/01 14:53:36
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Except those Chaos Marines don't get the Signum and Cherub. For reasons. Even though the Signum is free too.
Maybe, just maybe, they either *should*, or they should get something similar/on the same level. Y'know, so that the foil actually mirrors what it foils?
You seriously need to get over it. The differentiation is a blessing.
I'm sure it is a blessing to some, but it's still an invalidation of the core tenant of the SM vs CSM theme. Not everyone wants random rules for units disconnected from the narrative or fluff. Not everyone wants to see one of their favorite narrative devices hewn from the game for "MOAR BETTAR" reasons.
No, it would be an ad hominem argument if I was claiming that your opinion had to be wrong because you're bitter and resentful. But that isn't what I've claimed at all.
Reheheally?
Duskweaver wrote: Yeah, as a Chaos player, I can be accused of bias. But your bitterness as an Ork player is just as obvious a bias. I think you have every right to be annoyed that GW keeps screwing up your army, but that's no excuse for getting huffy that other armies are getting nice things.
Not sure what that is if not the definition of ad hominem.
I haven't got time to debate with people who mislead, lie and argue in bad faith. I have better things to do with my time.
I'm tempted to respond to Scotsman about how 'T5 isn't really that much of a buff, because people only shoot "elite killing weapons" at Havocs apparently. No deep striking units in this game. No sirree.
T4-T5 is literally one of the best buffs in the game. The vast majority of infantry killing weapons are Str4, most infantry designed to be in cqc hits at str 4. Wasting high value shots on Havocs means they earn their points back regardless because I'm not firing at those other, juicier targets that are acting with impunity.
T4-T5 is literally not one of the best buffs in the game, I'm sorry. I pretty regularly play with someone who runs haemonculus covens, and the +1T buff haemonculi give out is one of the worst buff auras in the game - though, admittedly, T4-T5 is the sole shift that does seem to make any kind of difference at all (the T5-T6 and T6-T7 buffs to different units almost never make a difference).
Toughness and Strength in 8th ed are usually worse than AP or Sv when it comes to a defensive/offensive buff, because you only get a die shift in certain situations. From T4-T5, that die shift is only against S4, S5 and S8 weaponry.
In the context of 1W models (who you most likely will not be using S8 weaponry on, at least in my armies S8 or higher tends to come with multiple damage) a point in toughness from 4 to 5 is fairly limited in what it grants you bonuses against.
Sure, some basic weaponry is S4 - orks, marines, CWE and sisters all have S4 basic weaponry. However, most basic weaponry is also AP-, which makes it fairly inefficient to be using against MEQ who will be sitting in cover anyway. And against one of those four armies, Eldar, most of the damage was going to be caused by the rend rolls anyway - the T4-T5 buff only decreases damage from shuriken weaponry by about 8%.
The single best thing about the buff is probably the increase in durability against the disintegrator, which is an extremely common anti-MEQ weapon with a range to reach the havocs.
Compare to the other two types of standard durability buff - a 6++ FNP, or an increase in Sv, on single wound MEQs the durability increase from those is nearly always a full 17% die shift.
As to the advantages vs melee units, I can't say it really makes a big difference to me. If I'm playing against havocs and I get any kind of deep striker into combat with them, they are 1A MEQs with only shooting weapons...they're out of the game. it doesn't matter that I'll be killing 1/6 less of them if I do happen to have a S4 melee attacker (with no rend, because models with a rend rule won't give a crap anyway).
T4-T5 is definitely one of the three toughness shifts in the game that isn't entirely meaningless. (the others being T3-T4 and T7-T8). But it's still not anywhere near "the best" durability buff that regularly gets thrown around.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
the_scotsman wrote: Toughness and Strength in 8th ed are usually worse than AP or Sv when it comes to a defensive/offensive buff, because you only get a die shift in certain situations. From T4-T5, that die shift is only against S4, S5 and S8 weaponry.
You forgot S9, which is very important (Lascannons). Also, AP actually gets worse the higher it gets. AP -1 and -2 are probably the best AP in the game. Toughness 5 is the best threshold for toughness.
damage was going to be caused by the rend rolls anyway - the T4-T5 buff only decreases damage from shuriken weaponry by about 8%.
More like 30%.
I'm not saying that this is the best thing since sliced bread, but going from T4 to T5 for havocs is a *huge* buff and one I wholeheartedly welcome. Shifting these guys from their cover will be a nightmare for most armies, especially as Alpha Legion.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/01 16:23:12
1 - Move and Fire: Cool
2 - New Gun: Cool
3 - T5: Meh? I'd rather not.
4 - Forced to take 4 heavies: Lame
5 - Loss of extra bodies + access to specials: My Big Beef.
I much preferred a big mob of guys in a bunker or ruin, or the mob of guys loaded with specials going aggressively in. Old Havocs were more Siege oriented, imo, while the new guys are a glass cannon.
I'm not saying that this is the best thing since sliced bread, but going from T4 to T5 for havocs is a *huge* buff and one I wholeheartedly welcome. Shifting these guys from their cover will be a nightmare for most armies, especially as Alpha Legion.
Non-overcharged plasma (since they only have 1 wound) will kill them at exactly the same rate. Lasguns will kill them at exactly the same rate. And since they can't take more bodies to soak wounds, even at T5 the unit will die faster, overall. Effectiveness of the unit will drop much faster per wound.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/01 17:51:55
the_scotsman wrote: Toughness and Strength in 8th ed are usually worse than AP or Sv when it comes to a defensive/offensive buff, because you only get a die shift in certain situations. From T4-T5, that die shift is only against S4, S5 and S8 weaponry.
You forgot S9, which is very important (Lascannons). Also, AP actually gets worse the higher it gets. AP -1 and -2 are probably the best AP in the game. Toughness 5 is the best threshold for toughness.
damage was going to be caused by the rend rolls anyway - the T4-T5 buff only decreases damage from shuriken weaponry by about 8%.
More like 30%.
I'm not saying that this is the best thing since sliced bread, but going from T4 to T5 for havocs is a *huge* buff and one I wholeheartedly welcome. Shifting these guys from their cover will be a nightmare for most armies, especially as Alpha Legion.
I did goof the math - thought Bladestorm was AP-4 and not Ap-3 - but assuming (as you also seem to be) that they are sitting in cover, the difference between T5 and T4 against shuriken weaponry seems to be a 16% increase, not 30%. 20 shots gives 2.25 unsaved wounds at T4 and 1.84 unsaved wounds at T5.
Also, the fact that you mention Lascannons highlights my overall point here: When you talk about firing any full on anti-tank weapons that would shift from 2s to 3s OR any low-AP small arms that would go from 4s to 5s at a long range MEQ unit in cover, you're already looking at incredible levels of inefficiency for those guns. Nobody talks about how the T7 to T8 shift in land raiders is really huge because it means boltguns go from wounding on 5s to 6s because you don't fire that gun at that target anyway. Everyone fires lascannons at land raiders, meaning they don't get any value out of the T7-T8 shift vs the most common weaponry set against them.
Most weapons that are highly efficient at MEQ killing are S6-S7, high AP, and low damage. The weapons that are most relevant with this change are reaper launchers and disintegrators, but overall the loss of ablative wounds will make it at best a wash anyway.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
I would argue that T4-T5 is in fact the best toughness shift in the game. Most high damage weapons are now wounding on 3s instead of 2s, most small arms are now wounding on 4s or 5s.
Its huge.
In comparison the shift from T7-T8 seems amazing (and indeed it isn't bad) until you realise that many weapons used against these targets are s8 or higher. Str 9, 10 and above is often used against these targets which all wound on 3s. Str 14+ is incredibly rare outside of stacked buffs.
I hope this makes Havocs playable. I also hope GW take a slice of this buff pie and give it to other heavy support choices that are lamenting currently, rather than just give it to their favourite new models. And no, I'm not talking about Ork Lootas.
E - the thing is you sometimes DO have to fire those weapons inefficiently at poor targets. In an actual game sometimes you have no option but to fire at a poor target, for whatever reason. Havocs make me loathe those shots. It will take an inordinate amount of fire from my particular army to deal with them effectively. So they will likely be left, unless they sit on an objective or come to me with those horrible chainguns.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/01 19:19:54
An Actual Englishman wrote: I would argue that T4-T5 is in fact the best toughness shift in the game. Most high damage weapons are now wounding on 3s instead of 2s, most small arms are now wounding on 4s or 5s.
Its huge.
In comparison the shift from T7-T8 seems amazing (and indeed it isn't bad) until you realise that many weapons used against these targets are s8 or higher. Str 9, 10 and above is often used against these targets which all wound on 3s. Str 14+ is incredibly rare outside of stacked buffs.
I hope this makes Havocs playable. I also hope GW take a slice of this buff pie and give it to other heavy support choices that are lamenting currently, rather than just give it to their favourite new models.
It's definitely one of the three useful ones. T3-T4 is almost certainly better on lighter infantry, but tends to bring with it a huge price jump (compare an ork boy to a guardsman/whatever other pure chaff thing).
I guess for me I just go "oh, neat, they gave a bad unit something to make it maybe worth looking at instead of releasing a brand new kit and leaving the rules as super duper crap (I'm looking at you, Terminators!)
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
I find T3-T4 obviously better when I've been playing Aspect warriors a lot lately. I find T4-T5 obviously better when I've been playing Marines a lot lately. I find T7-T8 obviously better when I've been playing Mechdar a lot lately.
It's really hard to be objective about which is better, because they manifest so very differently depending on the matchups.
I guess for me I just go "oh, neat, they gave a bad unit something to make it maybe worth looking at instead of releasing a brand new kit and leaving the rules as super duper crap (I'm looking at you, Terminators!)
This is fair.
Again, let's just hope they buff other units that also need it.
Terminators aren't bad. Their cheapest load out is unreal and they put out an ungodly amount of shots with quality durability for their price.
Except those Chaos Marines don't get the Signum and Cherub. For reasons. Even though the Signum is free too.
Maybe, just maybe, they either *should*, or they should get something similar/on the same level. Y'know, so that the foil actually mirrors what it foils?
You seriously need to get over it. The differentiation is a blessing.
I'm sure it is a blessing to some, but it's still an invalidation of the core tenant of the SM vs CSM theme. Not everyone wants random rules for units disconnected from the narrative or fluff. Not everyone wants to see one of their favorite narrative devices hewn from the game for "MOAR BETTAR" reasons.
1. They WERE always worse. The introduction of the Cherub merely cemented it.
2. CSM aren't just supposed to be some mirror foil or whatever. They're supposed to be an antagonist. They SHOULD be ultimately different, and "worse and can take special weapons" was always dumb to begin with.
3. You keep bringing up mirroring as the core theme when it really isn't. It's simply lazy design.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
the_scotsman wrote: Also, the fact that you mention Lascannons highlights my overall point here: When you talk about firing any full on anti-tank weapons that would shift from 2s to 3s OR any low-AP small arms that would go from 4s to 5s at a long range MEQ unit in cover, you're already looking at incredible levels of inefficiency for those guns. Nobody talks about how the T7 to T8 shift in land raiders is really huge because it means boltguns go from wounding on 5s to 6s because you don't fire that gun at that target anyway. Everyone fires lascannons at land raiders, meaning they don't get any value out of the T7-T8 shift vs the most common weaponry set against them.
Most weapons that are highly efficient at MEQ killing are S6-S7, high AP, and low damage. The weapons that are most relevant with this change are reaper launchers and disintegrators, but overall the loss of ablative wounds will make it at best a wash anyway.
Its about points efficiency.
If the guy is carrying a lascannon or the Reaper Chaincannon he's 39 or 34 points for a T5 3+ wound. Even with a -1 to hit and a cover save, they are not that tough - and so expensive, and that yes, shooting lascannons at the unit isn't that inefficient. Sure he's a lot tougher than a devestator - but that doesn't mean much when devs are fragile to the point of not obviously being viable except for saying carrying one heavy bolter or missile launcher and using the mortal wound stratagem+cherub. Its like comparing most vehicles to a quad-las Pred - suddenly everything's efficient.
As you seem to have been arguing - shoot a regular T4 marine, and shoot a T5 marine with a bolt gun. The T5 marine suffers 2/3rds the casualties. Thats nice - but not if he costs 2.5-3 times as much. Its Alpha Legion and cover which is doing the heavy lifting.
Except those Chaos Marines don't get the Signum and Cherub. For reasons. Even though the Signum is free too.
Maybe, just maybe, they either *should*, or they should get something similar/on the same level. Y'know, so that the foil actually mirrors what it foils?
You seriously need to get over it. The differentiation is a blessing.
I'm sure it is a blessing to some, but it's still an invalidation of the core tenant of the SM vs CSM theme. Not everyone wants random rules for units disconnected from the narrative or fluff. Not everyone wants to see one of their favorite narrative devices hewn from the game for "MOAR BETTAR" reasons.
1. They WERE always worse. The introduction of the Cherub merely cemented it.
Depends on exactly when we're talking about, but yes, the Signum did make Devs marginally better. Not sure why you think that's being debated.
2. CSM aren't just supposed to be some mirror foil or whatever. They're supposed to be an antagonist. They SHOULD be ultimately different, and "worse and can take special weapons" was always dumb to begin with.
Completely agree.
First, they're supposed to be the one *MAJOR* foil. They're Marines who differend from the Space Nazi dogma. They're Marines that didn't walk the Straight and Narrow. You can see what your precious Marines would be up to, if they stopped drinking the Koolaid, and started drinking blood.
As for being different? CSM forces *WERE* different. You can't run Possessed as Loyalists. Or Oblits. Mutas. DPs. Cultists. And so forth. And you can run all that alongside Marines that didn't drink the Koolaid, but haven't gone totally off the deepend yet. Having the foil for basic Marines, but each army have very different other units, made a very interesting and compelling foil, both for comparision and for contrasting.
"Worse" wasn't ideal; they should have been the same.
"And can take Special Weapons" was a little odd, but (a) so could Command Squads or other such Loyalist squads, and (b) was an *option* - meaning you could run a 10-man Havok squad with 4 heavies, or you could run a Specialist-heavy squad. In other words, the rules allowed running Havoks which were blood-drinking Devs, or Havoks which were something else. The updated rules allow you to run Havoks which are something else, but not "just" blood-drinking Devs.
Where we disagree is that, since you see no value in a foil for the primary protaganists of the setting, you believe it should be removed; where I see value in it, I do not believe it should be removed; your preference destroys my options and enjoyment, my preference leaves your options and enjoyment intact.
3. You keep bringing up mirroring as the core theme when it really isn't. It's simply lazy design.
You should go tell Shakespere, Whedon, and Tolkein that foils are lazy design, that they should feel bad, and that they should remove them from their work. Obviously, they're terrible writers.
1. They WERE always worse. The introduction of the Cherub merely cemented it.
Having greater customize-ability throughout the editions allowed them to be more tailored to the army's needs, and they've had some pretty great builds over the years. All Special Weapons, T5, Fearless and True Grit for Death Guard in 4th Ed. was pretty sweet.
Isn't this right after you saying "Chaos Marines have ALWAYS been more elite?"
1. They WERE always worse. The introduction of the Cherub merely cemented it.
Having greater customize-ability throughout the editions allowed them to be more tailored to the army's needs, and they've had some pretty great builds over the years. All Special Weapons, T5, Fearless and True Grit for Death Guard in 4th Ed. was pretty sweet.
Isn't this right after you saying "Chaos Marines have ALWAYS been more elite?"
That customization was already brought for Chosen in terms of special weapons. Therefore, the design philosophy behind Havocs was super lazy.
And yeah they're always supposed to be more elite. That doesn't mean it was tackled correctly.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
1. They WERE always worse. The introduction of the Cherub merely cemented it.
Having greater customize-ability throughout the editions allowed them to be more tailored to the army's needs, and they've had some pretty great builds over the years. All Special Weapons, T5, Fearless and True Grit for Death Guard in 4th Ed. was pretty sweet.
Isn't this right after you saying "Chaos Marines have ALWAYS been more elite?"
That customization was already brought for Chosen in terms of special weapons. Therefore, the design philosophy behind Havocs was super lazy.
And yeah they're always supposed to be more elite. That doesn't mean it was tackled correctly.
In that case, when a Chapter starts openly dealing with demons, and not just a wink and a nudge here and there (as in, Marks or Demons or Sorcs in-chapter), what becomes of their Devs? Yesterday, they were Devs - Marines carrying heavy weapons. Today, they're the same guys, same kit, same training, same role - but they need to be different guys (T5), different kit (all Heavies), different training (no penalty on move), with a different role (all of the above)?
1. They WERE always worse. The introduction of the Cherub merely cemented it.
Having greater customize-ability throughout the editions allowed them to be more tailored to the army's needs, and they've had some pretty great builds over the years. All Special Weapons, T5, Fearless and True Grit for Death Guard in 4th Ed. was pretty sweet.
Isn't this right after you saying "Chaos Marines have ALWAYS been more elite?"
That customization was already brought for Chosen in terms of special weapons. Therefore, the design philosophy behind Havocs was super lazy.
And yeah they're always supposed to be more elite. That doesn't mean it was tackled correctly.
In that case, when a Chapter starts openly dealing with demons, and not just a wink and a nudge here and there (as in, Marks or Demons or Sorcs in-chapter), what becomes of their Devs? Yesterday, they were Devs - Marines carrying heavy weapons. Today, they're the same guys, same kit, same training, same role - but they need to be different guys (T5), different kit (all Heavies), different training (no penalty on move), with a different role (all of the above)?
I've already explained why Renegade Chapters should be handled in the Vanilla codex. Anyone fallen that far would've been purely absorbed into a Legion and used as a meatshield (let's not pretend most of the Renegade Chapters are important in terms of combat prowess anyway), and they're likely not going to be so different in combat doctrines due to how they would've recently fought. As is, a newly Renegade Chapter can get oodles of Plague Marines and Daemon Engines but lost their Assault Cannons all the sudden and replaced them with Autocannons. It's inconsistent and they need to be separated entirely.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
1. They WERE always worse. The introduction of the Cherub merely cemented it.
Having greater customize-ability throughout the editions allowed them to be more tailored to the army's needs, and they've had some pretty great builds over the years. All Special Weapons, T5, Fearless and True Grit for Death Guard in 4th Ed. was pretty sweet.
Isn't this right after you saying "Chaos Marines have ALWAYS been more elite?"
That customization was already brought for Chosen in terms of special weapons. Therefore, the design philosophy behind Havocs was super lazy.
Chaos Codex: pg. 62 "There is little uniformity between squads, much of the organization and structure of the force's former Legion or Chapter falls by the wayside as they turn to the path of Chaos."
More options is more appropriate. Your "design rules" are arbitrary, and your accusation of lazy design is lazy. The new Havocs have the strange distinction of being MORE restrictive than their loyalist Devastator counterparts.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: And yeah they're always supposed to be more elite. That doesn't mean it was tackled correctly.
Chaos Codex, pg.7 "...some never grow beyond this point and remain bloodthirsty renegades and pirates for the rest of their long lives."
They become less disciplined and more savage, but not necessarily more "elite".
1. They WERE always worse. The introduction of the Cherub merely cemented it.
Having greater customize-ability throughout the editions allowed them to be more tailored to the army's needs, and they've had some pretty great builds over the years. All Special Weapons, T5, Fearless and True Grit for Death Guard in 4th Ed. was pretty sweet.
Isn't this right after you saying "Chaos Marines have ALWAYS been more elite?"
That customization was already brought for Chosen in terms of special weapons. Therefore, the design philosophy behind Havocs was super lazy.
And yeah they're always supposed to be more elite. That doesn't mean it was tackled correctly.
In that case, when a Chapter starts openly dealing with demons, and not just a wink and a nudge here and there (as in, Marks or Demons or Sorcs in-chapter), what becomes of their Devs? Yesterday, they were Devs - Marines carrying heavy weapons. Today, they're the same guys, same kit, same training, same role - but they need to be different guys (T5), different kit (all Heavies), different training (no penalty on move), with a different role (all of the above)?
I've already explained why Renegade Chapters should be handled in the Vanilla codex.
So I can use the Vanilla codex to have a Chaos Sorc in my detatchment? Or a Demon Engine? DP? Marked units? Oblits/Mutas/Possessed? I never knew I could do that.
Not all recently-Traitor warbands are Renegades who simply aren't loyal anymore - many include aspects that are *far* off the deepend.
You have previously suggested that we use Renegade Chapters for anything but the Legions, but that hasn't reasonably answered how to handle many gaps in that implementation.
(let's not pretend most of the Renegade Chapters are important in terms of combat prowess anyway)
If by Renegade, you mean "Any non-Legion Warband", then why are so many stories about non-Legion Warbands? We hear more about the Legions, much like how we hear more about the same handful of Chapters, but that's not because other successor chapters are *weaker*.
, and they're likely not going to be so different in combat doctrines due to how they would've recently fought. As is, a newly Renegade Chapter can get oodles of Plague Marines and Daemon Engines but lost their Assault Cannons all the sudden and replaced them with Autocannons. It's inconsistent and they need to be separated entirely.
I agree that Renegades should have access to almost everything the Vanilla book has, from a fluff perspective. But which makes more sense: that a Chapter that fell to the lies of Tzeench lead by a Libby-turned Sorc has no Sorcs in their chapter, or has no Grav in their chapter? Both are wrong, but the lack of at least one Sorc in that scenario is much more impactful.
1. They WERE always worse. The introduction of the Cherub merely cemented it.
Having greater customize-ability throughout the editions allowed them to be more tailored to the army's needs, and they've had some pretty great builds over the years. All Special Weapons, T5, Fearless and True Grit for Death Guard in 4th Ed. was pretty sweet.
Isn't this right after you saying "Chaos Marines have ALWAYS been more elite?"
That customization was already brought for Chosen in terms of special weapons. Therefore, the design philosophy behind Havocs was super lazy.
Chaos Codex: pg. 62 "There is little uniformity between squads, much of the organization and structure of the force's former Legion or Chapter falls by the wayside as they turn to the path of Chaos."
More options is more appropriate. Your "design rules" are arbitrary, and your accusation of lazy design is lazy. The new Havocs have the strange distinction of being MORE restrictive than their loyalist Devastator counterparts.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: And yeah they're always supposed to be more elite. That doesn't mean it was tackled correctly.
Chaos Codex, pg.7 "...some never grow beyond this point and remain bloodthirsty renegades and pirates for the rest of their long lives."
They become less disciplined and more savage, but not necessarily more "elite".
The new Havocs also fall in line with more on how they used to fight. Also, "options" has nothing to do with design. Distinction does. New Havocs are distinguished instead of being the same entry as Devastators but worse.
Also how are they more restricted? In terms of Heavy Weapons total maybe. They've never had Plasma Cannons after all.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
14000
15000
4000 
Deffskullz desert scavengers
Thousand Sons 
