Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Not much to explain, but in combat, which was the superior super soldier in your opinion? Mine goes to the Astartes because of their patience and coordination.

Though one could argue the agressive nature of the Thunder Warriors made them superior.

I think what little fluff that exists on this topic is clear.

Thunder Warriors are superior warriors to Astartes, but more unstable and unsuited for the long campaign and defending of the Imperium that the Emperor had planned.

 Ordana wrote:
I think what little fluff that exists on this topic is clear.

Thunder Warriors are superior warriors to Astartes, but more unstable and unsuited for the long campaign and defending of the Imperium that the Emperor had planned.

I've heard of them being replaced by the Astartes before due to their genetic disorders, but never knew how they were better warriors.

Is there an explanation to why they were superior warriors to their replacements?

The Space Marine is superior. That's why they replaced the Thunder Warriors, which were an inferior prototype. Anything suggesting otherwise is a result of usual BL brainfarts.

Over long term the standard space marine is better.

In terms of only combat, Thunderwarriors were far more capable. Just as smart, faster, tougher, stronger. Some sources say that they are even more capable than Custodies, before equipment is factored in.

Also, apparently, though they don't have them on their own, they can use salvaged Prognoid glads to extend their lives, and stave off the effects of their degeneration, so some are still around, though mostly as renegades.

 Jazzylee wrote:
Not much to explain, but in combat, which was the superior super soldier in your opinion?

Keyword here is "in combat".

The Space Marine is the better soldier overall, much better, but in combat, the Thunder Warrior is better due to being stronger and faster.

Perhaps the best way to sum up was the thunder warriors, the marines better soldiers...

1 for 1, in a straight up fight, a Thunder Warrior beats the everloving snot out of a Space Marine, no contest.

A Space Marine however is much easier to make, is dramatically more long lasting and stable, and generally is a much better tool for galactic conquest.

If you want to ask whats better in combat, one will really need to define what that combat entails and the scale of the engagement. They're different tools meant for different tasks and employed at different scales.

In just combat it's undeniably the Thunder Warrior. One Thunder Warrior will tear through Astartes. They're like Custodes - much better at fighting but worse for fighting a war.

The Emperor wouldn't have created the Astartes if the Thunder Warriors were better at the job than marines. Thunder Warriors are bigger and stronger, big whoop doesn't mean they are better in combat.

Thunder warrior without a doubt.

Space marines were easier to mass produce and worked better in large formations, and were far more stable in terms of biology.

But thunder warriors were designed to deal with monstrosities, mutants and sorcerers common on pre unity terra.

Thunder Warriors were known to be physically stronger and more brutal and potent in combat than Astartes. The reason they were eventually replaced was that they burned out faster- shorter lifespans, mental instability, and overall less discipline.

They were a short-term tool for kickstarting the Great Crusade, a fire and forget weapon intended to absolutely wreck face in the most vicious way possible. In one-on-one combat with your average space marine, I'd give it to the Thunder Warrior.

 Drakzilla wrote:
Thunder Warriors were known to be physically stronger and more brutal and potent in combat than Astartes. The reason they were eventually replaced was that they burned out faster- shorter lifespans, mental instability, and overall less discipline.

They were a short-term tool for kickstarting the Great Crusade, a fire and forget weapon intended to absolutely wreck face in the most vicious way possible. In one-on-one combat with your average space marine, I'd give it to the Thunder Warrior.

No they were made to have a short lifespan because the Emperor didn't want them as a permanent army. In outcast dead the surviving warriors sought to undo the short lifespan.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

hobojebus wrote:
Thunder warrior without a doubt.

Space marines were easier to mass produce and worked better in large formations, and were far more stable in terms of biology.

But thunder warriors were designed to deal with monstrosities, mutants and sorcerers common on pre unity terra.

Do you have a source for them being easier to mass produce?

Who was better in combat? Thunder Warrior, no debate. The downside was the Thunder Warriors were intentionally flawed and short lived, in order to smash Terra into submission and then purged by the Custodes. The Astartes Legions were created to help conquer the galaxy for a few centuries, then intentionally used one half to cull the other, followed by the rest being culled by the Custodes. The Custodes would then act as the bulwark to protect the empire.

That sounds completely wrong. Intentionally starting a civil war is stupid as heck and Custodes take thousands of children to produce one.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Who was better in combat? Thunder Warrior, no debate. The downside was the Thunder Warriors were intentionally flawed and short lived, in order to smash Terra into submission and then purged by the Custodes. The Astartes Legions were created to help conquer the galaxy for a few centuries, then intentionally used one half to cull the other, followed by the rest being culled by the Custodes. The Custodes would then act as the bulwark to protect the empire.

That's nonsense. They were not made to cull the rest. The only thing we know about their time after the crusade is from daemons, stating that they would become statesmen etc. while humans ruled the Imperium. I mean what do they do with the other half, have half of them cull the rest and then half of them to cull the rest of them' doesn't make sense. I think they'd realise that 'you know If we cull them I think maybe that we might get culled by the half next time.'

I remember a bunch of Ultramarines talking about how Guilliman was trying to steer his marines to take on leadership positions for after the Crusade at the start of the Mark of Calth novel.

I have certainly never heard about a plot by the Emperor to have a Horus Heresy and the Custodes to take over, makes no sense when their number would be UTTERLY insufficient to protect the size of the Imperium.

 Ordana wrote:
I remember a bunch of Ultramarines talking about how Guilliman was trying to steer his marines to take on leadership positions for after the Crusade at the start of the Mark of Calth novel.

I have certainly never heard about a plot by the Emperor to have a Horus Heresy and the Custodes to take over, makes no sense when their number would be UTTERLY insufficient to protect the size of the Imperium.

I've heard of that rumor before on one of my other posts, frankly I kinda find it stupid to begin with, why would the Emperor get rid of legions of super soldiers like the Space Marines, just to replace them with the harder to make Custodes, who have barely any battlefield experience?

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
The Emperor wouldn't have created the Astartes if the Thunder Warriors were better at the job than marines. Thunder Warriors are bigger and stronger, big whoop doesn't mean they are better in combat.

Nah that is not how war works. Cost efficiency is important, but a leader can easily want to get rid of a great general or great army, if he thinks they are getting too indenpended or hard to control. History is full of stories like that, and very few dudes mange to somehow survive such a purge like Zhukov. Most end like Belisarius and his men.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jazzylee wrote:

I've heard of that rumor before on one of my other posts, frankly I kinda find it stupid to begin with, why would the Emperor get rid of legions of super soldiers like the Space Marines, just to replace them with the harder to make Custodes, who have barely any battlefield experience?

A question of control and loyality. first you don't want to win a war and then end up with a lot of trained men coming back alive, they only cause trouble. Second if their officers or leaders are really efficient and beloved by the troops they form a risk, or at least they are going to create a co existing system which your goverment officials won't like. Third is loyality, if you cant garente it when they come back from a war, then it is better for them to win and then die out. History has ton of examples of it.

Well, there're several stages of ret-con to go through.


Original Thunder Warriors were described as being created from grown adults through muscle crafting, etc.. physically stronger than Astartes but short-lived and mentally unstable.

Original Custodes were just an Imperial Guard regiment that didn't like shirts and were stationed on Terra.


New-8th-ret-con Custodes are in no small part based on old school Art of Thunder Warriors, so Custodes now partly occupy that space, both aesthetically and in some aspects of the fluff as being a prior, individually superior to Astartes creation of the Emperor (but not in others, e.g. mentally unstable, etc.., etc..).

Original Thunder Warriors


Original Custodes

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Drakzilla wrote:
Thunder Warriors were known to be physically stronger and more brutal and potent in combat than Astartes. The reason they were eventually replaced was that they burned out faster- shorter lifespans, mental instability, and overall less discipline.

They were a short-term tool for kickstarting the Great Crusade, a fire and forget weapon intended to absolutely wreck face in the most vicious way possible. In one-on-one combat with your average space marine, I'd give it to the Thunder Warrior.

No they were made to have a short lifespan because the Emperor didn't want them as a permanent army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

hobojebus wrote:
Thunder warrior without a doubt.

Space marines were easier to mass produce and worked better in large formations, and were far more stable in terms of biology.

But thunder warriors were designed to deal with monstrosities, mutants and sorcerers common on pre unity terra.

Do you have a source for them being easier to mass produce?

It's either mentioned in the story about the astropath whose name I can't remember of it was in the short story about the thunder warriors surviving on terra as gladiators.

Either way it's hard to deny there were more space marines than thunder warriors produced over all.

 Ordana wrote:
I remember a bunch of Ultramarines talking about how Guilliman was trying to steer his marines to take on leadership positions for after the Crusade at the start of the Mark of Calth novel.

Yes there is certainly a lot of 'what comes after' with different primarks having different views. The reality is though with a conquered galaxy what need is there for large standing armies? Worse, what need is there for the more extreme chapters. What none of them realized is the Emperor (and I love the theory he is a left over weapon from the dark age of technology) was doing all of this for humanity. Not post-humans like marines. The galaxy would be conquered, the warp stilled and then then bypassed and humanity could safely evolve into a physic race like the Eldar. Space Marines ruling the rest was not part of the plan.

hobojebus wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Drakzilla wrote:
Thunder Warriors were known to be physically stronger and more brutal and potent in combat than Astartes. The reason they were eventually replaced was that they burned out faster- shorter lifespans, mental instability, and overall less discipline.

They were a short-term tool for kickstarting the Great Crusade, a fire and forget weapon intended to absolutely wreck face in the most vicious way possible. In one-on-one combat with your average space marine, I'd give it to the Thunder Warrior.

No they were made to have a short lifespan because the Emperor didn't want them as a permanent army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

hobojebus wrote:
Thunder warrior without a doubt.

Space marines were easier to mass produce and worked better in large formations, and were far more stable in terms of biology.

But thunder warriors were designed to deal with monstrosities, mutants and sorcerers common on pre unity terra.

Do you have a source for them being easier to mass produce?

It's either mentioned in the story about the astropath whose name I can't remember of it was in the short story about the thunder warriors surviving on terra as gladiators.

Either way it's hard to deny there were more space marines than thunder warriors produced over all.

Its the outcast dead and it doesn't mention anything about marines being easier to mass produce. They weren't gladiators either, the surviving thunder warriors were in a hive gang.

There were more Astartes because Thunder warriors were only made for the unification wars, they wouldn't need nearly the same numbers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
The Emperor wouldn't have created the Astartes if the Thunder Warriors were better at the job than marines. Thunder Warriors are bigger and stronger, big whoop doesn't mean they are better in combat.

Nah that is not how war works. Cost efficiency is important, but a leader can easily want to get rid of a great general or great army, if he thinks they are getting too indenpended or hard to control. History is full of stories like that, and very few dudes mange to somehow survive such a purge like Zhukov. Most end like Belisarius and his men.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jazzylee wrote:

I've heard of that rumor before on one of my other posts, frankly I kinda find it stupid to begin with, why would the Emperor get rid of legions of super soldiers like the Space Marines, just to replace them with the harder to make Custodes, who have barely any battlefield experience?

A question of control and loyality. first you don't want to win a war and then end up with a lot of trained men coming back alive, they only cause trouble. Second if their officers or leaders are really efficient and beloved by the troops they form a risk, or at least they are going to create a co existing system which your goverment officials won't like. Third is loyality, if you cant garente it when they come back from a war, then it is better for them to win and then die out. History has ton of examples of it.

You'd have to show me evidence of Astartes being easier and less costly to mass produce. They were specifically designed because they were better all round warriors, they weren't just brute force.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here is a useful quote on who was better:

"‘No matter,’ replied Babu Dhakal. ‘They were but failed experiments. Tell me of these “Space
Marines”. What are they like?’
Ghota sneered and squared his shoulders, though he had no right to do so. ‘They are not our equal,
but they are warriors fit to bear the eagle.’
‘And so they should be,’said Babu Dhakal. ‘They stand on our shoulders to achieve greatness.
Without us, they would not exist.’
‘They are but pale shadows of what we were,’said Ghota.
‘No, they are the next step in the evolution of the superwarrior, it is we who are pale shadows of
what they are. Yes, we are stronger and hardier than them, but our genetic legacy was never meant to
last. Old Night may be over, but for us a new night is falling. We were not built to live beyond Unity,
did you know that?’
‘No, my subedar.’
‘Our genes were always flawed but I cannot decide whether that was deliberate or simply
ignorance. I hope for the latter, but I suspect the former. This world’s master is careless with his
creations, and I wonder if his primarchs know that when their task is done they will be cast aside in
favour of the mortals in whose name they fight. Like the angels of old, I fear they will not take the idea
of such rejection well.’
Ghota said nothing, the reference to the ancient text lost on him.
‘How many warriors did you face?’ asked Babu Dhakal.
‘Seven, but two of them are now dead, my subedar,’said Ghota. ‘Only five remain.’
‘You killed those two yourself?’
‘One of them, the other was dying anyway"

Its the outcast dead and it doesn't mention anything about marines being easier to mass produce. They weren't gladiators either, the surviving thunder warriors were in a hive gang.

There were more Astartes because Thunder warriors were only made for the unification wars, they wouldn't need nearly the same numbers.

It is a question of how well something is made and how long it stays that way. A thunder warrior outclasses the space marine, in some ways he is comperable to a custodes. The marine on the other hand lasts longer. There is a time break when, if you have to replace and retrain thunder warriors too often, then even if in battle they are more efficient, the production of space marines does become cheaper, because the "factories" can pump them out like Russians t34s. A space marine is the good enough option. He ain't a nuke, he isn't an exquisit hunting rifle, he is an ak47 that is going to work after years of use.

Plus the loyality thing was a real problem. Indoctrination of a 12 year old can be done, it is much harder to do on someone past 25years, practicly impossible without a brain surgery.

Karol wrote:

Its the outcast dead and it doesn't mention anything about marines being easier to mass produce. They weren't gladiators either, the surviving thunder warriors were in a hive gang.

There were more Astartes because Thunder warriors were only made for the unification wars, they wouldn't need nearly the same numbers.

It is a question of how well something is made and how long it stays that way. A thunder warrior outclasses the space marine, in some ways he is comperable to a custodes. The marine on the other hand lasts longer. There is a time break when, if you have to replace and retrain thunder warriors too often, then even if in battle they are more efficient, the production of space marines does become cheaper, because the "factories" can pump them out like Russians t34s. A space marine is the good enough option. He ain't a nuke, he isn't an exquisit hunting rifle, he is an ak47 that is going to work after years of use.

Plus the loyality thing was a real problem. Indoctrination of a 12 year old can be done, it is much harder to do on someone past 25years, practicly impossible without a brain surgery.

No, that was not what you were saying you were specifically saying that they were easier to mass-produce. Secondly marines were 'designed to last longer' Thunder warriors were designed to 'not last' so their shelf life has nothing to do with their efficiency as warriors.

No they can't go through the gene implanting and growth process after 12 years (in most cases) indoctrination has nothing to do with that. Plus they can be indoctrinated, the Space Wolves whole 13th company were adults before becoming Space Marines.

No there's a short story where there are thunder warriors who fight as gladiators against a chronogladiator.

Separate from the novel.

hobojebus wrote:
No there's a short story where there are thunder warriors who fight as gladiators against a chronogladiator.

Separate from the novel.

Do you know what novel it was in, was it a short story or a novel, sounds interesting?

Dreams of unity I just bought it digital don't know what collection it's in.

Yeah, in terms of combat ability the thunder warriors would beat the space marines without a doubt, even with their rubbish power armour.

However barring casualties, you can expect that space marine to still be combat capable 500 years later. That thunder warriors wouldn't last a tenth as long. Heck, from what I understand you might have to write off the thunder warrior in under a decade.

hobojebus wrote:
Dreams of unity I just bought it digital don't know what collection it's in.

Cheers dude!