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2019/04/03 21:11:13
Subject: Painting as one chapter/legion using rules of another?
For me, it's when you add Chapter-specific iconograpy and models that it becomes "must play as" in a Tournament situation.
Blue Scars? No problem! They're just blue, without any of the Codex Ultramarine Chapter / Company / Squad / Veteran markings, so that's fine. No problem.
It's when I can instantly, clearly tell that this is Codex Ultramarines Chapter 4th Company, 2nd Squad led by a Veteran Sergeant based on the paint job and markings, then that is what I'm going to expect it to play as under Tournament conditions.
If it's not Tournament play, I don't really care.
In just about any tournament I've been to (outside of GW where they have your house rule, so everyone would be complying anyway) I think you'd get 0'd for sportsmanship for this kind of attitude and rightfully so. Under the vast majority of tournament conditions, these expectations of the colour matching the rules just don't exist, as far as I can tell - being a regular tournament player who follows the ones I don't play in. I don't play with 'confusing' models, because all my models are purple eldar of various factions and that isn't anyone's colours, but I regularly play against armies with different chapter tactics to their paint scheme and I really don't see any problem with it in a tournament setting as they are obviously making the choice for rules reasons (and that is the 'correct' thing to do in a tournament). For casual pick up games, I don't care either, the only place I think I would is a narrative campaign and for that, I'd offer to supply the models if it bothered me that much.
Your attitude comes off as simply trying to find a reason to dock someone sportsmanship/painting votes to 'game' the tournament, I'm not saying that is your motivation, just what it looks like and that strikes me as incredibly rude. I suppose this is because I doubt you both have the mental capacity to play in a tournament, yet lack the ability to remember "This is a <CHAPTER> list", so claiming it's confusing is untrue. Claiming its cheating is also just flat wrong unless you are at a tournament that has that rule, in which case call a judge, don't try to enforce the rule yourself.
On the contrary, the issue is that you fail to understand the entire point of WYSIWYG and Tournament play. In Tournament play, 100% of the onus is on the player to ensure that the army that they field presents no confusion to the opponent. There should be ZERO burden on the opponent to remember that X is actually Y. It is the ultimate in toolbaggishness to require your opponent to remember that WYSI *not* WYG. Any other stance is incompatible with good sportsmanship and good play in a competitive environment. To present an army that looks exactly like Ultramarines but actually plays as something else (Chaos Renegades, to bring the point home) is confusing to the opponent. That *is* cheating, simple is that.
Cheating involves breaking rules. In a tournament where this is a rule its cheating. Call a judge. In a tournament where its not a rule you're just making one up. There is no requirement to present 0 confusion. There is usually some requirement for modeling. You follow the specific guidelines and you're fine. The onus is on each player to play within the rules pack given. If that's too hard for you, it's not your opponents fault. If it's not too hard for you but you pull this anyway there is a poor sport in that game. I'll leave who that is a an exercise für the reader.
2019/04/03 21:12:03
Subject: Painting as one chapter/legion using rules of another?
The people that give a rat's butt what color you painted your marines are just being judgey and obnoxious. Who gives a flying fart what color things are? The successor chapters give you leeway to paint whatever chapter whatever color. And GW fluff is both so expansive and so ridiculous that you can get away with almost anything.
I mean, I picked my color scheme based on lore and paint to match. I play Biel-tan... which has a terribad Craftworld ability. Am I ever going to stop painting my space elves green? Nope. It did mean I abandoned all pretenses of painting to "official" GW fluff when I started my Harlequins and Corsair Eldar armies though.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/03 21:39:27
~ Craftworlders ~ Harlequins ~ Coterie of the Last Breath Corsairs ~
2019/04/03 22:10:22
Subject: Painting as one chapter/legion using rules of another?
FWIW, I'd really like it if Chapter Tactics were changed to something like Force Tactics instead. Then, in the chapter profiles it could list something like Preferred Force Tactic to keep the flavor in line, but not tie rules to paint schemes.
2019/04/03 23:17:29
Subject: Painting as one chapter/legion using rules of another?
The rules are not, in any way, tied to paint schemes though and anyone who insists they are ought to be introduced, swiftly and sharply, to a dreadsock.
I don't have issue with color schemes unless you're using more than one chapter in the same army and at least using the correct faction. IMO Grey Knights, Deathwatch, etc shouldn't be used as chapter Marines (or Chaos as Loyalist or vice versa without significant kitbashing).
If those 3 scout units are Black Templar, those bikes are White Scars, those Devastators are Raven Guard, and those 4 units of Intercessors are 2 each of White Scars and Raven Guard, and they are all painted as Salamanders... Then that game is going to suck.
Sometimes, you just gotta take something cause the model is freakin cool...
2019/04/04 10:43:30
Subject: Painting as one chapter/legion using rules of another?
Assuming we're just talking about colour scheme (so all weapons are correct, all Assault Marines are Assault Marines, etc) I have no problem whatsoever. Remembering which sub-faction an army represents is something you already have to do for a lot of armies anyway and remembering the army you're up against is Imperial Fists is hardly a taxing mental feat. Where I would have a problem is if all the models are painted in the same colour scheme but some of them are Imperial Fists and some are White Scars, for example.
2019/04/04 12:35:23
Subject: Painting as one chapter/legion using rules of another?
LunarSol wrote: FWIW, I'd really like it if Chapter Tactics were changed to something like Force Tactics instead. Then, in the chapter profiles it could list something like Preferred Force Tactic to keep the flavor in line, but not tie rules to paint schemes.
This is exactly how it should be. Didn't the... 5th? Edition SM codex do this? There was one where you picked like traits and flaws for your chapter, with the established ones having them pre-set already so if you did a successor you could see what your parent chapter had and adjust accordingly.
- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame
2019/04/04 12:59:30
Subject: Painting as one chapter/legion using rules of another?
Slipspace wrote: Where I would have a problem is if all the models are painted in the same colour scheme but some of them are Imperial Fists and some are White Scars, for example.
Is your issue with that scenario marine specific? Would a cohesively painted force for a different faction which mixes subfaction battalions be an issue? Isn't that more the norm than the exception?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/04 13:00:31
2019/04/04 13:03:57
Subject: Painting as one chapter/legion using rules of another?
Slipspace wrote: Where I would have a problem is if all the models are painted in the same colour scheme but some of them are Imperial Fists and some are White Scars, for example.
Is your issue with that scenario marine specific? Would a cohesively painted force for a different faction which mixes subfaction battalions be an issue? Isn't that more the norm than the exception?
Not the original guy that posted this, but noooooo. I hate when people do that. If your army contains no differentiation at all between which infantry squads are going to be hitting as hard as orks in close combat and which infantry squads are going to be immune to morale...I'm not going to play against that army.
Units must be meaningfully disintguished in a visible manner.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2019/04/04 13:13:51
Subject: Painting as one chapter/legion using rules of another?
Slipspace wrote: Where I would have a problem is if all the models are painted in the same colour scheme but some of them are Imperial Fists and some are White Scars, for example.
Is your issue with that scenario marine specific? Would a cohesively painted force for a different faction which mixes subfaction battalions be an issue? Isn't that more the norm than the exception?
Not SM specific, no. If your army includes different sub-factions drawn from the same Codex I'd except them to be visually differentiated somehow and not all one uniform colour scheme. It's really just to avoid confusion and as a courtesy to your opponent. Some exceptions may apply with, for example Dark Eldar, whose units are locked into different sub-factions, which can then have sub-sub-factions applied.
Craftworlders ~ 
Harlequins ~ 
Coterie of the Last Breath Corsairs ~ 