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vaklor4 wrote: Its not at all gratifying to have someone talk your ear off about how bad the new Obliterators are, only to beat them with that very unit.
I remember, in 6E, playing my CWE versus a newer player's SM. It was between turn 1 and 2, and some other vet came by and started ragging on how OPCWE was and how that new player might as well not play.
Because everything with Bladestorm and Battle Focus was so OP, there was no way he could enjoy the game.
He should just forfeit and not play the game, as it's pointless. CWE is just so OP.
At that point in the game, the only units I had with those rules were 1 Ranger squad, my Farseer, and a single Banshee Exarch - everything else with both rules was dead (the new player had an *amazing* top-of-T1).
Sure, I had the much more competitive book. But that player's fixation on factions lead him to try to end a game the newer player was enjoying. The newer player kept playing, and it turned out to be a very close game decided on T7.
I still haven't forgotten just how much of a donkey cave people can be about that sort of thing. Or how blind they can be.
Don't fixate on just one aspect of the hobby; you'll dismiss and/or miss out on so much fun that could be have.
Reading this thread, I'm rather grateful that my approach has been to just buy Dark Imperium and build up from there rather than researching the meta and building a list from scratch for tons of money.
"The sword can be anklebiter as well as throatcleaver. We need no new weapons to defeat the sons of the hydra, merely new doctrines."
-Joriah Stendall, second Chapter Master of the Red Grail Crusaders
I'm so glad that I chose to jump into 40k with stuff that looked cool instead of going the competitive route like I initially planned to. My Chaos Marines will never win any tournaments, but they look cool and they'll be fun to play if I ever find time to play a game.
Horst wrote: My standard comment if someone is new looking for an army is:
"Take a look at GW's website, and pick the army you like the look of the least. Keep in mind though, that Space Marines of all varieties and Necrons are both in a rough spot, and are much weaker than other armies. If you're in it mostly for paitning and modeling though, don't worry, you can play both in friendly games".
And people sometimes try to call me a WAACTFG for posting things like that. Feels bad. Just trying to inform a player.
Guessing you meant to say "pick the one you like the look of the most"?
I do think "much weaker" is hyperbolic still without explaining why. Sure, Marines and Necrons aren't lighting up the tournament meta, but that's in an environment where the best of the best are competing. Both are more than capable of winning games. Perhaps it might be better to add on that they'll take more time to learn how to make better use of their units because they're inherently less efficient? Goal here is to warn but not dissuade.
Or perhaps I'm going too far to the other extreme here.
Horst wrote: My standard comment if someone is new looking for an army is:
"Take a look at GW's website, and pick the army you like the look of the least. Keep in mind though, that Space Marines of all varieties and Necrons are both in a rough spot, and are much weaker than other armies. If you're in it mostly for paitning and modeling though, don't worry, you can play both in friendly games".
And people sometimes try to call me a WAACTFG for posting things like that. Feels bad. Just trying to inform a player.
Guessing you meant to say "pick the one you like the look of the most"?
I do think "much weaker" is hyperbolic still without explaining why. Sure, Marines and Necrons aren't lighting up the tournament meta, but that's in an environment where the best of the best are competing. Both are more than capable of winning games. Perhaps it might be better to add on that they'll take more time to learn how to make better use of their units because they're inherently less efficient? Goal here is to warn but not dissuade.
Or perhaps I'm going too far to the other extreme here.
No, I meant least. Let your hate of your own army drive you! Lol... yea I meant most. Marines and Necrons aren't winning tournaments, and that's basically all I play (seriously, I can find like 2-3 tournaments a month within an hour of me, this is great) so I'm probably not a good reference for casual meta.
It's the same problem with every massive multiplayer game. WoW, 40k, Everquest, D&D, even shooter games like CoD.
Every newby goes right for the FoTM widget, and then sucks until he learns to back up and take it slow. When Knights came out I CRINGED audibly whenever my FLGS would sell one to a brand new player, who had no idea what 40k is or how to play. Never even cracked a codex and thought they have just paid their way to victory. Just like the players who bought DW when they first came out. Too advanced for first time players....
Space Marines make top 8 at massive events all the time. That's an army that can be taken to pretty much any height that a new player can reasonably expect to achieve once they sharpen up their skills. It's funny, because the people acting like this army is a terrible choice are doing exactly what we talked about earlier - putting far too much weight into the internet hyperbole of what's "in meta". Space Marines have such a large playerbase that they can be possibly the top army of the game with Gladius, and still see a bunch of people downplaying them as bad - so what did you think it was going to look like when they were just merely midtier/low-midtier, lol.
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
SHUPPET wrote: Space Marines make top 8 at massive events all the time. That's an army that can be taken to pretty much any height that a new player can reasonably expect to achieve once they sharpen up their skills. It's funny, because the people acting like this army is a terrible choice are doing exactly what we talked about earlier - putting far too much weight into the internet hyperbole of what's "in meta". Space Marines have such a large playerbase that they can be possibly the top army of the game with Gladius, and still see a bunch of people downplaying them as bad - so what did you think it was going to look like when they were just merely midtier/low-midtier, lol.
Shuppet, the winning space marine lists bear zero resemblance to the list a newer player is going to make. They're going to take a bunch of Intercessors, maybe the new Shadowspear box, some Aggressors, etc. Not things that are remotely good.
While someone could randomly pick units from the Ork, Eldar, Guard, or Knight codex and cut through them.
A newbie list from CWE would destroy a newbie list of Marines, but a newbie list of CWE will get destroyed by a resonably-competitive list of Marines.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Over the past 3 editions, Tac Marines have faired better than any one troop unit in CWE.
Over the past 3 editions, only the Farseer has endured as a top-tier list component.
Each of the last 3 editions, a CWE netlist required an almost entirely different collection to field.
A newbie picking CWE doesn't mean that, if they turn into a competitive player, their early picks will necessarily be useful for their competitive lists.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/01 21:28:04
SHUPPET wrote: Space Marines make top 8 at massive events all the time. That's an army that can be taken to pretty much any height that a new player can reasonably expect to achieve once they sharpen up their skills. It's funny, because the people acting like this army is a terrible choice are doing exactly what we talked about earlier - putting far too much weight into the internet hyperbole of what's "in meta". Space Marines have such a large playerbase that they can be possibly the top army of the game with Gladius, and still see a bunch of people downplaying them as bad - so what did you think it was going to look like when they were just merely midtier/low-midtier, lol.
Shuppet, the winning space marine lists bear zero resemblance to the list a newer player is going to make. They're going to take a bunch of Intercessors, maybe the new Shadowspear box, some Aggressors, etc. Not things that are remotely good.
While someone could randomly pick units from the Ork, Eldar, Guard, or Knight codex and cut through them.
LOL Yeah space marines bad. Other book is full of OP units I can juts throw a dart at the codex and the list will build itself will it?
On topic - I don't get it... Its a fictional miniatures game that's hugely chance based dice rolling... Surely the first and foremost driving factor would be that you like to look and play(and hopefully paint) with your miniatures? Also the rich background surely must play a factor.
Id say if they have no interest in that aspect they are better off playing computer games or some board games. That's just my opinion of course.
I didint pick playing Eldar because they will win me games. I play them because the aesthetics are on point for weird space elf aliens, wraith constructs look badass and space wizardry is friggin epic!
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
SHUPPET wrote: Space Marines make top 8 at massive events all the time. That's an army that can be taken to pretty much any height that a new player can reasonably expect to achieve once they sharpen up their skills. It's funny, because the people acting like this army is a terrible choice are doing exactly what we talked about earlier - putting far too much weight into the internet hyperbole of what's "in meta". Space Marines have such a large playerbase that they can be possibly the top army of the game with Gladius, and still see a bunch of people downplaying them as bad - so what did you think it was going to look like when they were just merely midtier/low-midtier, lol.
Shuppet, the winning space marine lists bear zero resemblance to the list a newer player is going to make. They're going to take a bunch of Intercessors, maybe the new Shadowspear box, some Aggressors, etc. Not things that are remotely good.
While someone could randomly pick units from the Ork, Eldar, Guard, or Knight codex and cut through them.
LOL Yeah space marines bad. Other book is full of OP units I can juts throw a dart at the codex and the list will build itself will it?
On topic - I don't get it... Its a fictional miniatures game that's hugely chance based dice rolling... Surely the first and foremost driving factor would be that you like to look and play(and hopefully paint) with your miniatures? Also the rich background surely must play a factor.
Id say if they have no interest in that aspect they are better off playing computer games or some board games. That's just my opinion of course.
I didint pick playing Eldar because they will win me games. I play them because the aesthetics are on point for weird space elf aliens, wraith constructs look badass and space wizardry is friggin epic!
Well of course the army you like the look of should impact your choice, but I really doubt someone is going to look at all the armies and think, hmm... .I hate all of these except Necrons!. And even if they do, as long as they go in with both eyes open about what to realistically expect from Necrons then it's fine too. They should just know that they're naturally going to be at a disadvantage if they play the game against most other armies.
Personally I hate the aesthetic of the Eldar, and no matter how strong they are I'd never play them. So there are plenty of other armies out there I do like, I just play them.
SHUPPET wrote: Space Marines make top 8 at massive events all the time. That's an army that can be taken to pretty much any height that a new player can reasonably expect to achieve once they sharpen up their skills. It's funny, because the people acting like this army is a terrible choice are doing exactly what we talked about earlier - putting far too much weight into the internet hyperbole of what's "in meta". Space Marines have such a large playerbase that they can be possibly the top army of the game with Gladius, and still see a bunch of people downplaying them as bad - so what did you think it was going to look like when they were just merely midtier/low-midtier, lol.
Shuppet, the winning space marine lists bear zero resemblance to the list a newer player is going to make. They're going to take a bunch of Intercessors, maybe the new Shadowspear box, some Aggressors, etc. Not things that are remotely good.
While someone could randomly pick units from the Ork, Eldar, Guard, or Knight codex and cut through them.
LOL Yeah space marines bad. Other book is full of OP units I can juts throw a dart at the codex and the list will build itself will it?
On topic - I don't get it... Its a fictional miniatures game that's hugely chance based dice rolling... Surely the first and foremost driving factor would be that you like to look and play(and hopefully paint) with your miniatures? Also the rich background surely must play a factor.
Id say if they have no interest in that aspect they are better off playing computer games or some board games. That's just my opinion of course.
I didint pick playing Eldar because they will win me games. I play them because the aesthetics are on point for weird space elf aliens, wraith constructs look badass and space wizardry is friggin epic!
Well of course the army you like the look of should impact your choice, but I really doubt someone is going to look at all the armies and think, hmm... .I hate all of these except Necrons!. And even if they do, as long as they go in with both eyes open about what to realistically expect from Necrons then it's fine too. They should just know that they're naturally going to be at a disadvantage if they play the game against most other armies.
Personally I hate the aesthetic of the Eldar, and no matter how strong they are I'd never play them. So there are plenty of other armies out there I do like, I just play them.
That is why you attempt to paint an accurate picture with your words; once you've shared all the relevant info, as accurately as possible, the new player can make as informed a choice as possible. Because it really is their choice, so it's best to leave the decision to them.
They may decide they're super-competitive or super-casual or somewhere in the middle. They might like GK's asethetic most, but like Vanilla Marines nearly as much - and decide to go with the sligthly-less-bad army.
SHUPPET wrote: Space Marines make top 8 at massive events all the time. That's an army that can be taken to pretty much any height that a new player can reasonably expect to achieve once they sharpen up their skills. It's funny, because the people acting like this army is a terrible choice are doing exactly what we talked about earlier - putting far too much weight into the internet hyperbole of what's "in meta". Space Marines have such a large playerbase that they can be possibly the top army of the game with Gladius, and still see a bunch of people downplaying them as bad - so what did you think it was going to look like when they were just merely midtier/low-midtier, lol.
Shuppet, the winning space marine lists bear zero resemblance to the list a newer player is going to make. They're going to take a bunch of Intercessors, maybe the new Shadowspear box, some Aggressors, etc. Not things that are remotely good.
While someone could randomly pick units from the Ork, Eldar, Guard, or Knight codex and cut through them.
LOL Yeah space marines bad. Other book is full of OP units I can juts throw a dart at the codex and the list will build itself will it?
On topic - I don't get it... Its a fictional miniatures game that's hugely chance based dice rolling... Surely the first and foremost driving factor would be that you like to look and play(and hopefully paint) with your miniatures? Also the rich background surely must play a factor.
Id say if they have no interest in that aspect they are better off playing computer games or some board games. That's just my opinion of course.
I didint pick playing Eldar because they will win me games. I play them because the aesthetics are on point for weird space elf aliens, wraith constructs look badass and space wizardry is friggin epic!
Well of course the army you like the look of should impact your choice, but I really doubt someone is going to look at all the armies and think, hmm... .I hate all of these except Necrons!. And even if they do, as long as they go in with both eyes open about what to realistically expect from Necrons then it's fine too. They should just know that they're naturally going to be at a disadvantage if they play the game against most other armies.
Personally I hate the aesthetic of the Eldar, and no matter how strong they are I'd never play them. So there are plenty of other armies out there I do like, I just play them.
Yep Just like id never pick up IG or knights and 85% of marines.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: It's the same problem with every massive multiplayer game. WoW, 40k, Everquest, D&D, even shooter games like CoD.
Every newby goes right for the FoTM widget, and then sucks until he learns to back up and take it slow. When Knights came out I CRINGED audibly whenever my FLGS would sell one to a brand new player, who had no idea what 40k is or how to play. Never even cracked a codex and thought they have just paid their way to victory. Just like the players who bought DW when they first came out. Too advanced for first time players....
It reminds me of Dota, people raging at pubbies for picking their favorite carry rather than picking a meta one. I'd always stand in and defend the decision, and explain no [you idiot], he's going to play a million times better with his most comfortable character than he is going to if he has to try make something new work for him right now.
It also gave me a pretty good insight into how disgustingly short sighted and yet stupidly over confident most players are in their own abilities. Knowing how other people play the game, is not the same thing as you knowing how to play the game. Short story: I'm personal friends with the guy who was known at the time, as the best player in game at a specific character. Anyway, while we were chatting, I brought to him an issue I had with the way the character was currently being played, and after discussing it with me he agreed. We developed a new build together based around my suggested change, and then decided to see how it played before making any further decisions. Anyways, we both saw massive improvements to both GPM and win rate. These things aren't super fast to pick up, but within 2 months, my build had became the standard "meta" build.
But during those 2 months? You wouldn't believe the hate I'd get in pubs for doing it. No matter how well I was playing or carrying, there was always some overconfident moron telling me how terrible I am for building a certain way, "nobody does that", I'm doing well with the build because I got lucky, etc.
Anyway, that shot died down once the new meta was established and I was vindicated in my build. I asked my buddy if he got the same feedback but he said nah, though it was probably because of the level he played at.
Anyway, it pretty much cemented for me my long standing belief that the players with the most rigid, unbending ideas on how the game should be played, and also the ones most confident and vocal in telling everyone else how it is, are in fact the ones with the least amount of understanding of the actual game itself, who make up for their poor grasp of game mechanics by blindly following what players better than them say or do, and fooling themselves into thinking that they understand why.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/01 22:05:12
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
SHUPPET wrote: Space Marines make top 8 at massive events all the time. That's an army that can be taken to pretty much any height that a new player can reasonably expect to achieve once they sharpen up their skills. It's funny, because the people acting like this army is a terrible choice are doing exactly what we talked about earlier - putting far too much weight into the internet hyperbole of what's "in meta". Space Marines have such a large playerbase that they can be possibly the top army of the game with Gladius, and still see a bunch of people downplaying them as bad - so what did you think it was going to look like when they were just merely midtier/low-midtier, lol.
Shuppet, the winning space marine lists bear zero resemblance to the list a newer player is going to make. They're going to take a bunch of Intercessors, maybe the new Shadowspear box, some Aggressors, etc. Not things that are remotely good.
While someone could randomly pick units from the Ork, Eldar, Guard, or Knight codex and cut through them.
Lol you are being the definition of what we are talking about in this thread right now.
Ork dex has a ton of bad units. So does Guard. Hell Knights have like the smallest dex in the game and even 80% of that is overpriced, and even if it wasn't, you need a second army just to compete with them.
But no, only Space Marines take any skill to do well with amirite? DAE SPACE MARINES BAD?
Did you somehow miss that this thread was started about an Aeldari player faceplanting hard?
This sort of hyperbole that Space Marines are some terrible army, and that you're a monster for saying its a fine choice for a new player is just a joke. SM can compete at any level of the game, and just like every other dex you need to improve your play and practice with it to get there. That means developing an understanding of which units to avoid, for EVERY dex.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/01 22:19:51
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
No, I meant least. Let your hate of your own army drive you! Lol... yea I meant most. Marines and Necrons aren't winning tournaments, and that's basically all I play (seriously, I can find like 2-3 tournaments a month within an hour of me, this is great) so I'm probably not a good reference for casual meta.
I don't think that hating your own army is very fun or constructive, no matter if you play tournaments or just some games at the store.
On topic - I don't get it... Its a fictional miniatures game that's hugely chance based dice rolling... Surely the first and foremost driving factor would be that you like to look and play(and hopefully paint) with your miniatures? Also the rich background surely must play a factor.
Only who cares about the fluff, if the army doesn't work anything like it on the table? that is like reading about how your country was super awesome 600 years ago, and not a hell hole it is now. Although I must agree that people playing other armies often thrown in stuff about how the army was OP 15 years ago, so not it is time to pay up. Only 15 years ago I was 1 year old and didn't get to enjoy the OP version of my army.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
The thing I love about seeing a Karol post in a thread you are following, is that it's always so unpredictable. You can never tell if it's going to be "Segues Into Grey Knights" or a "Segues Into Poland" post. Looks like we got Poland this time.
P. S. If you read past the first half a line in his post, he quite clearly said he is joking and meant to say pick the army you like the most. I imagine you probably did read this and just wanted to set the stage for an inevitable secondary follow up Segue Into Grey Knights, but just on the off chance that you actually only did read the first 10 words you should probably be aware that you are responding to something Horse was never actually saying.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/01 22:37:42
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
No, I meant least. Let your hate of your own army drive you! Lol... yea I meant most. Marines and Necrons aren't winning tournaments, and that's basically all I play (seriously, I can find like 2-3 tournaments a month within an hour of me, this is great) so I'm probably not a good reference for casual meta.
I don't think that hating your own army is very fun or constructive, no matter if you play tournaments or just some games at the store.
If you read the rest of that sentence, you'll notice that was a joke... he made a typo in his original post.
That mentality has seeped into everything now. I started running a tabletop RPG recently and one player brought a ridiculous min maxed character I know he got off the internet.
You should really take anything said with conviction on the with a grain of salt. Note the thread still on the front page where the OP states that nothing in Shadowspear is worth playing. Should you listen to that and just throw them in the garbage? No. Learn how to evaluate units and use your own objectivity and experience to make those decisions.
For my "back in the day" story, when I started Space Marines had the mathematically best shooting and the best special rules, and the majority of players played them. I've always been a Chaos player at heart, and was losing more than I won to these lists. So I started a secondary Eldar army and it was able to beat the Space Marines every time. They had no answers to it. Then I ran into the local Eldar "main" player who had what looked to me an inferior list, and he just schooled me with it. There is always someone better.
I'd also say that while a new player might be able to stomp the local players with a tournament list, they won't learn the game as well as the would with a weaker list. Any list that you didn't come up with yourself is a crutch at some level.
On the flip side, I do appreciate that it is an expensive hobby and people don't have unlimited disposable cash. Of course you want to buy something that has a chance to win.
Slowroll mentions a pnp rpg player showing up with a character like that. feth that. I am not interested in playing in a party with, or running a game for, people who are trying to "win" a rpg.
Those people are the worst.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
SHUPPET wrote: Space Marines make top 8 at massive events all the time
You mean the Space Marines lists containing just 3 smash captains with loyal 32 actually giving them any offensive power, or Robby gunlines?
Because funny that, I have never seen Salamanders (one of the best SM traits, which is saying something, seeing orks have similar traits only three times as good) or White Scars place on any tournament seeing they lack above crutches. But maybe I am wrong - enlighten me, where they did make it to top 8?
SHUPPET wrote: Space Marines have such a large playerbase that they can be possibly the top army of the game with Gladius, and still see a bunch of people downplaying them as bad - so what did you think it was going to look like when they were just merely midtier/low-midtier, lol.
Except that's completely wrong - while Gladius was good if you faced decurion-less army, if you tried to put it on table against Tau, Eldar, Ynnari, and some Demon/AdMech builds, the only way to win was to hide everything in free transports and hope enemy can't chew through 800+ pts of vehicles before game ends, winning solely on objectives, which should tell you volumes how "good" the units Gladius tried to buff were.
But fine, let's have a laugh - please tell me anything SM had even remotely comparable to aspectwing, scatspam, riptidewing, ridiculous tau/eldar/ynnari buffs, wraith sue, that one stealth formation, etc etc. I won't be holding my breath seeing these armies could fight Gladius and win even without their own detachment buffs (which, to add insult to injury, were also much better than SM detachments, but whatever) but who knows, maybe someone updated Matrix while I was asleep.
Take scatbike for example - it has SM devastator statline and is costed like one, only with vastly better gun, movement only five times faster than assault marine, objective secured, multiple cheap, excellent buffing characters, and whole buckets of Str D shots vomiting from gunline behind them to mop up everything scatspam couldn't scythe with ridiculous ease. Gee, sure sounds like fair match with ""good"" SM
"Vastly better gun": 4x S6 AP6 vs 3-5x S (lolwoundson3sagainstsuperheavies) AP2.
"Buckets of D": 5 from a 5-man Wraithguard squad, or 4 from a superheavy. "Behind a gunline" at 12" or maybe 24"?
This kind of hyperbole kills any reasonable discussion. Eldar were OP, but much of what you say is hyperbole.
Slowroll wrote: That mentality has seeped into everything now. I started running a tabletop RPG recently and one player brought a ridiculous min maxed character
The 70s called, they want their min-maxer back. Your complaint is old enough to have kids going to college.
Slipspace wrote: If I may also be permitted a "back in my day" moment, I've noticed a distinct lack of self-reflection and ability to critique and understand both lists and playing decisions from a lot of younger/newer players.
Moment denied. You just might be wearing the rose-tinted glasses too tightly, which is ironic, given your comment about 'lack of self reflection.' The op is complaining about the same thing I saw people doing when I picked up Magic: the Gathering 25 years ago. There were plenty of kids, or even the older players, who were always chasing the new hotness, going for the cards they heard were 'must have' and always trying to copy the power deck builds from competitions but getting crumped because they had no idea how to actually use them. Warhammer was certainly now different. The only change to know is that the internet lets us kvetch about it further than just our local group.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/02 00:43:55
"-Nonsense, the Inquisitor and his retinue are our hounoured guests, of course we should invite them to celebrate Four-armed Emperor-day with us..." Thought for the Day - Never use the powerfist hand to wipe.
Those that want to forge their own way, and enjoy taking something perceived as bad and turning it into something good. Those are the innovators that come up with bonkers anti meta/don't care about meta lists and smash it or fail.
And there are those that just want to do what everybody else does and expect to win.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/02 00:53:30
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Argive wrote: I think there are two types of people:
Those that want to forge their own way, and enjoy taking something perceived as bad and turning it into something good. Those are the innovators that come up with bonkers anti meta/don't care about meta lists and smash it or fail.
And there are those that just want to do what everybody else does and expect to win.
That's way too binary a division. People have all sorts of styles and reasons for playing. But as long as there have been games that offer choice greater than 'red or black' there have been people who chase the perceived new hotness to their own detriment, and the rest of us watching them do it and rolling our eyes.
"-Nonsense, the Inquisitor and his retinue are our hounoured guests, of course we should invite them to celebrate Four-armed Emperor-day with us..." Thought for the Day - Never use the powerfist hand to wipe.
Eldar- 4436 pts
