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 Danielle Rae wrote:
Reading this thread, I'm rather grateful that my approach has been to just buy Dark Imperium and build up from there rather than researching the meta and building a list from scratch for tons of money.

Good gak.

To be honest, the time it takes to buy (responsibly), build, and paint a 2000pt army is long enough that the competitive meta is going to shift anyway by the time you're done. My rules to live by would be:

1) if it's a weird, rules ambiguous combo, or a unit loadout that isn't supported in the model range but only through some strange Forgeworld (or nowadays Index) loophole/technicality...don't spend any money on it. If you want a jump pack space marine captain with a thunder hammer right now, I'd say probably keep the rest of the Vanguard Veteran squad in the wings somewhere, just in case the model gets unsupported in the next rules release. Also, don't be "Guard Summoning Daemons" guy or "Tau Allied with Eldar" guy. Weird interactions like that tend not to stick around long.

2) If it's a hyper-specialised unit that's really really good right now, get one unit. Or maybe mix up the hyper-specialization a tiny bit. For example, take Deathwatch squads. right now, Storm bolter/storm shield on every guy is, admittedly, super good. Combi-plasma, frag cannons, and a few other options that are - critically - actually in the plastic kit, are not as good, but still pretty good. I'd rather see a new person build their deathwach squad with 2 storm shield guys, a frag cannon, a combi-plasma sergeant and maybe just a regular boltgun than see him go on ebay and fork twice as much money to get the full storm shield/storm bolter meta hotness.

3) Forgotten units that are just terrible and always have been kind of terrible...they do tend to stay that way, especially if they have standard equpment shared with other models in the game tying them down. Don't buy in to stuff that's been super duper junk for multiple editions that are old models unlikely to be updated soon, I would say that they're the worst kinds of bets. Shiny new kits, like primaris marines, I'd bet you any money will continue to receive buffs until at least someone successfully brings them to a tournament. Whirlwinds, Thunderfire cannons, Land Speeders, ironclad dreads? Those I wouldn't put my money on.

I just want to thank Irbis for putting an outstanding amount of effort into proving my point for me. You really worked extra hard on that, I actually thought it was deliberate satire at first until I realised you were serious.

Every army gets hyped and every army has a hyped unit.

Afaic, pick an army you kinda like or feel an certain connection to and play it.

But don't believe the codex hype about how powerful an army is. In its codex every army is all powerful and unbeatable.

If you chase the present, you will never catch the future.

I think that it cannot be underestimated how much people forget that meta's change, and how quickly. How many meta shifts has 8th Edition had? Every new codex release? Every new Chapter Approved? Every new Big FAQ?

the_scotsman wrote:

 Danielle Rae wrote:
Reading this thread, I'm rather grateful that my approach has been to just buy Dark Imperium and build up from there rather than researching the meta and building a list from scratch for tons of money.

Good gak.

To be honest, the time it takes to buy (responsibly), build, and paint a 2000pt army is long enough that the competitive meta is going to shift anyway by the time you're done. My rules to live by would be:

1) if it's a weird, rules ambiguous combo, or a unit loadout that isn't supported in the model range but only through some strange Forgeworld (or nowadays Index) loophole/technicality...don't spend any money on it. If you want a jump pack space marine captain with a thunder hammer right now, I'd say probably keep the rest of the Vanguard Veteran squad in the wings somewhere, just in case the model gets unsupported in the next rules release. Also, don't be "Guard Summoning Daemons" guy or "Tau Allied with Eldar" guy. Weird interactions like that tend not to stick around long.

2) If it's a hyper-specialised unit that's really really good right now, get one unit. Or maybe mix up the hyper-specialization a tiny bit. For example, take Deathwatch squads. right now, Storm bolter/storm shield on every guy is, admittedly, super good. Combi-plasma, frag cannons, and a few other options that are - critically - actually in the plastic kit, are not as good, but still pretty good. I'd rather see a new person build their deathwach squad with 2 storm shield guys, a frag cannon, a combi-plasma sergeant and maybe just a regular boltgun than see him go on ebay and fork twice as much money to get the full storm shield/storm bolter meta hotness.

3) Forgotten units that are just terrible and always have been kind of terrible...they do tend to stay that way, especially if they have standard equpment shared with other models in the game tying them down. Don't buy in to stuff that's been super duper junk for multiple editions that are old models unlikely to be updated soon, I would say that they're the worst kinds of bets. Shiny new kits, like primaris marines, I'd bet you any money will continue to receive buffs until at least someone successfully brings them to a tournament. Whirlwinds, Thunderfire cannons, Land Speeders, ironclad dreads? Those I wouldn't put my money on.

Great points, but I would like to point out that it's unlikely a new player would be aware enough about the game to make that judgment call on your third one. Veterans to the game supplying information to newbies should follow it, certainly - but it isn't like the newbie will have the knowledge to know.

Then you make another kind of funny comment. You suggest that there's only value in a choice if someone successfully brings them to a tournament. I think the continued obsession over tournament results from everyone, not just new players looking to enter the meta, is the truly worst thing about the community. It's what breeds this false dichotomy that a unit is either garbage or tournament worthy and therefore acceptable.

The problem is that perfectly viable units at most levels of the game aren't tournament worthy.

And I'll tell you something crazy - that's okay

Lemondish wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Danielle Rae wrote:
Reading this thread, I'm rather grateful that my approach has been to just buy Dark Imperium and build up from there rather than researching the meta and building a list from scratch for tons of money.

Good gak.

To be honest, the time it takes to buy (responsibly), build, and paint a 2000pt army is long enough that the competitive meta is going to shift anyway by the time you're done. My rules to live by would be:

1) if it's a weird, rules ambiguous combo, or a unit loadout that isn't supported in the model range but only through some strange Forgeworld (or nowadays Index) loophole/technicality...don't spend any money on it. If you want a jump pack space marine captain with a thunder hammer right now, I'd say probably keep the rest of the Vanguard Veteran squad in the wings somewhere, just in case the model gets unsupported in the next rules release. Also, don't be "Guard Summoning Daemons" guy or "Tau Allied with Eldar" guy. Weird interactions like that tend not to stick around long.

2) If it's a hyper-specialised unit that's really really good right now, get one unit. Or maybe mix up the hyper-specialization a tiny bit. For example, take Deathwatch squads. right now, Storm bolter/storm shield on every guy is, admittedly, super good. Combi-plasma, frag cannons, and a few other options that are - critically - actually in the plastic kit, are not as good, but still pretty good. I'd rather see a new person build their deathwach squad with 2 storm shield guys, a frag cannon, a combi-plasma sergeant and maybe just a regular boltgun than see him go on ebay and fork twice as much money to get the full storm shield/storm bolter meta hotness.

3) Forgotten units that are just terrible and always have been kind of terrible...they do tend to stay that way, especially if they have standard equpment shared with other models in the game tying them down. Don't buy in to stuff that's been super duper junk for multiple editions that are old models unlikely to be updated soon, I would say that they're the worst kinds of bets. Shiny new kits, like primaris marines, I'd bet you any money will continue to receive buffs until at least someone successfully brings them to a tournament. Whirlwinds, Thunderfire cannons, Land Speeders, ironclad dreads? Those I wouldn't put my money on.

Great points, but I would like to point out that it's unlikely a new player would be aware enough about the game to make that judgment call on your third one. Veterans to the game supplying information to newbies should follow it, certainly - but it isn't like the newbie will have the knowledge to know.

Then you make another kind of funny comment. You suggest that there's only value in a choice if someone successfully brings them to a tournament. I think the continued obsession over tournament results from everyone, not just new players looking to enter the meta, is the truly worst thing about the community. It's what breeds this false dichotomy that a unit is either garbage or tournament worthy and therefore acceptable.

The problem is that perfectly viable units at most levels of the game aren't tournament worthy.

And I'll tell you something crazy - that's okay

You misread my statement. I said that games workshop will most likely continue to buff Primaris Marine units UNTIL someone brings them in a tournament. They're the new hotness models that GW has been desperately trying to pimp since the start of the edition. If you buy something Primaris Marine themed, it is very likely to have extra attention paid to it when balancing is concerned (see: the half dozen odd buffs GW has put out to Primaris Marines since the start of the edition). However, if the unit you're looking at is a very old kit, then GW is much less likely to be paying attention to it.

There are obvious exceptions to this rule, but for every Dark Reaper and Shining Spear there's a dozen Banshees, Scorpions, Pheonix lords, vypers, falcons, Storm Guardians, etc that were weird old bad kits and stayed weird old and bad.

All the third rule is, is basically "if something is a newer kit, it's probably a safer buy."

Is it just me, or is page 3 of this thread full of insightful, reasonable, and nuanced posts?

I mean, we even see disagreement between rational posters right above this - and it seems entirely levelheaded.

+1 to ... almost every post on this page.

Its a sign of the end times! RUN FOR YOUR LIIIVES!

Bharring wrote:
Is it just me, or is page 3 of this thread full of insightful, reasonable, and nuanced posts?

I mean, we even see disagreement between rational posters right above this - and it seems entirely levelheaded.

+1 to ... almost every post on this page.

Actually that happens quite often when a couple of well known hyperactive posters don't show up for two or three pages. But it also usually means, that they'll soon return and spoil the fun of mature discussion

nou wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Is it just me, or is page 3 of this thread full of insightful, reasonable, and nuanced posts?

I mean, we even see disagreement between rational posters right above this - and it seems entirely levelheaded.

+1 to ... almost every post on this page.

Actually that happens quite often when a couple of well known hyperactive posters don't show up for two or three pages. But it also usually means, that they'll soon return and spoil the fun of mature discussion

I still stand by my Cabin in the Woods analogy. I think the Dakka mods might be the people in lab coats standing around making sure every discussion ends in the same place with the help of drugs and scifi technology.

New Mod: "But this thread isn't even about Orks, Grey Knights or how Eldar and Guard are OP!"

Alpharius: "...Not yet." *pulls lever*

Bharring wrote:
Is it just me, or is page 3 of this thread full of insightful, reasonable, and nuanced posts?

I mean, we even see disagreement between rational posters right above this - and it seems entirely levelheaded.

+1 to ... almost every post on this page.

It was Adepticon all weekend. I would surmise that a lot of the... Trolls were there and too busy playing their Guard/Knight armies...

the_scotsman wrote:

nou wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Is it just me, or is page 3 of this thread full of insightful, reasonable, and nuanced posts?

I mean, we even see disagreement between rational posters right above this - and it seems entirely levelheaded.

+1 to ... almost every post on this page.

Actually that happens quite often when a couple of well known hyperactive posters don't show up for two or three pages. But it also usually means, that they'll soon return and spoil the fun of mature discussion

I still stand by my Cabin in the Woods analogy. I think the Dakka mods might be the people in lab coats standing around making sure every discussion ends in the same place with the help of drugs and scifi technology.

New Mod: "But this thread isn't even about Orks, Grey Knights or how Eldar and Guard are OP!"

Alpharius: "...Not yet." *pulls lever*

i still love that comparison
"theyre getting close to the fence - release the GK players! "

the_scotsman wrote:

You misread my statement. I said that games workshop will most likely continue to buff Primaris Marine units UNTIL someone brings them in a tournament. They're the new hotness models that GW has been desperately trying to pimp since the start of the edition. If you buy something Primaris Marine themed, it is very likely to have extra attention paid to it when balancing is concerned (see: the half dozen odd buffs GW has put out to Primaris Marines since the start of the edition). However, if the unit you're looking at is a very old kit, then GW is much less likely to be paying attention to it.

There are obvious exceptions to this rule, but for every Dark Reaper and Shining Spear there's a dozen Banshees, Scorpions, Pheonix lords, vypers, falcons, Storm Guardians, etc that were weird old bad kits and stayed weird old and bad.

All the third rule is, is basically "if something is a newer kit, it's probably a safer buy."

Apologies, I did misread. Now that you've clarified, I think you're likely right.

Given how regularly rules and point-costs are changed and tweaked in 8th, chasing the meta is kind of pointless unless you're aiming to win the next tournament.
8th has been out for less than 2 years but the meta has shifted more times than I can count.

I'm so glad I play in a mostly casual group where we don't care about the meta anyway and just play what we feel like.
But then we've all been into this hobby for +15 years. Once we'd care about the meta but now...meh.
Maybe it's something that comes with age. After a certain point you no longer care that much about being the best. *shrug*

 vaklor4 wrote:
Its not at all gratifying to have someone talk your ear off about how bad the new Obliterators are, only to beat them with that very unit.

I would find that exceptionally gratifying.

I think this is the best recent topic.

I did 0 research when i selected my army and that was my biggest mistake. If i did i should have started with primaris, because they are in every release so you can get them for relatively cheap. Their models are new and plastic, not many sharp edges that make them easier to paint and transport. At my level is more important not to forget to use stuff and to positioning your models properly than the tournament ITC metta that use different rules.

CFW is one of the worst armies to start with, to many metal or resin models. The starter kit should be renamed to upgrade kit, since it don`t have infantry in it.
On the tabletop the eldar are squashy and mistakes coast you the games. It`s like playing with tower of cards, if you make mistake and you lost central piece your army crumble.
2 times i lost my farseer and two time i felt like i`m out of juice. Units like DR and SS are hard to manage and their positioning is super important, mistakes are easily punished and they are not good on certain terrains and missions. Maybe that is one of the reason flyers are so popular, they are good without any combos and good against most armies and in most citations.

Lemondish wrote:


Great points, but I would like to point out that it's unlikely a new player would be aware enough about the game to make that judgment call on your third one. Veterans to the game supplying information to newbies should follow it, certainly - but it isn't like the newbie will have the knowledge to know.

Then you make another kind of funny comment. You suggest that there's only value in a choice if someone successfully brings them to a tournament. I think the continued obsession over tournament results from everyone, not just new players looking to enter the meta, is the truly worst thing about the community. It's what breeds this false dichotomy that a unit is either garbage or tournament worthy and therefore acceptable.

The problem is that perfectly viable units at most levels of the game aren't tournament worthy.

And I'll tell you something crazy - that's okay

I would just like to add to that the crazy obsession with top table results at tournaments. Not just the general run of the mill results that the normal players are getting but the very top tables. Only the few players on those tables have any reason to care about that and it has zero relevance to a newbie.

What might be relevant is what is happening at small local tournaments and on the middle tables on larger tournaments. Maybe that newbie does want to go to tournaments and wants to have a decent time - aiming for the middle tables in your first few big tournaments is perfectly sensible. Aiming for a 3-2 or a 2-3 sort of result at the end of that first big weekend tournament is going to make you happier than thinking you have some sort of entitlement to win. Part of the problem is looking at the wrong part of the tournaments and from that drawing all the wrong lessons.

I can look at the codexes I have and say with confidence that 80% of what is in there is viable at local tournaments or on nearly all the tables at a larger tournament. Maybe some of that stuff will fail to pull its weight on the top few tables of a really big tournament, is that really relevant in any way to a typical newbie?

If someone is asking me advice about what units to play then they are already not a candidate for the top tables so giving them top table advice is not appropriate. By the time they have learned the skills to be anywhere approaching a top table player the meta will have moved on anyway so anything I said today would be outdated by the time it matters. So I will just give advice towards learning the game well, picking a faction that they might enjoy painting and playing and which has enough variety of decent options and play styles that they can learn what works for them as they go.

I do tend to steer new players away from certain parts of the internet - it just messes with their minds and stops them learning properly.

Marin wrote:
I think this is the best recent topic.

I did 0 research when i selected my army and that was my biggest mistake. If i did i should have started with primaris, because they are in every release so you can get them for relatively cheap. Their models are new and plastic, not many sharp edges that make them easier to paint and transport. At my level is more important not to forget to use stuff and to positioning your models properly than the tournament ITC metta that use different rules.

CFW is one of the worst armies to start with, to many metal or resin models. The starter kit should be renamed to upgrade kit, since it don`t have infantry in it.
On the tabletop the eldar are squashy and mistakes coast you the games. It`s like playing with tower of cards, if you make mistake and you lost central piece your army crumble.
2 times i lost my farseer and two time i felt like i`m out of juice. Units like DR and SS are hard to manage and their positioning is super important, mistakes are easily punished and they are not good on certain terrains and missions. Maybe that is one of the reason flyers are so popular, they are good without any combos and good against most armies and in most citations.

I'm an Eldar player at heart. I very, very nearly started as Eldar. I started as Marines.

I'm very glad I started as Marines.

It gave me a much better understanding of and respect for the game, and all the limitations units can have. And it let me start with a much more forgiving and lower skill floor army.

There's no reason the army you start with has to be the army you always play. And, historically, Marines have been a great entrypoint, which let you see every part of the game.

I'm working slowly but surely into getting into the game a good bit more than I have in the past (as I've been a hobbyist for the vast majority of the time).

The Fracture of Biel-Tan brought me so much excitement. Being able to combine all, at that time, Eldar factions into a single army... to take the best looking and playing units from each of, at that time, four different armies was such a great idea. There were so many things I liked about each army (except maybe the Harlequins because of their high painting difficulty as well as very small number of models available, but I still love the look and idea of the Corsairs).

So, I started buying up Eldar models, Dark Eldar models, some Harlequin models, and even had decided to buy some additional Eldar models had they not been completely out of stock both in store and online for a long period of time.

Unfortunately, life happened, I moved on to another army, possibly shifted to AoS, or just got burned out on painting and the models went on the back burner. Very recently, all of them resurfaced. I decided that since the Ynnari were doing so well in tournaments, I might as well get them all painted and ready to go.

BUT, then one of the YouTubers I watch (Almost Pro Gaming) mentioned that he though that Ynnari probably had the highest skill floor as well as skill ceiling. Seeing that I'm married with a three year old stepson, by the time I learned the Ynnari, we'd probably be on 9th edition... and by that time, things would have changed completely again. So, i took the advice of the people on this forum. I'm going to learn Craftworlds first. Once I get my brain wrapped around them, I can add maybe The Visarch, Yvraine, or the Yncarne as my HQ and play as a mono-Craftworlds army with a Ynnari HQ. Or, maybe learn Drukhari, then make it a Craftworlds and Drukhari army with an Ynnari HQ. Just move slowly so that I can learn properly rather than just slinging all the models out on the table and losing each game.

Just my $0.02

SG