Poll |
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Are Obliterators worth their new points cost? |
Absolutely, they were undercosted for their firepower, now with mellee OMG, OP now |
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12% |
[ 26 ] |
Balanced all around |
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42% |
[ 93 ] |
Underwhelming |
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35% |
[ 79 ] |
Garbage, won't field them now. |
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11% |
[ 25 ] |
Total Votes : 223 |
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2019/04/02 17:19:46
Subject: Are Obliterators worth their new points cost?
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Nurgle Chosen Marine on a Palanquin
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I'm going to start off with... twice the cost to get -1 ap combat weapons on a slow unit, that isn't likely to see combat...
Its possible I missed something, but at their cost I don't see myself fielding them, unless I'm desperate for deepstriking.
* I did mean to say at 115ppm. I know that the Chaos Codex 2.0 was a typo (thanks for the correction).
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/02 19:01:50
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2019/04/02 17:20:58
Subject: Are Obliterators worth their new points cost?
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Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer
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Not at all. 65 was too cheap but 115 is way too much. should be like 90ish IMHO.
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- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame |
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2019/04/02 17:29:56
Subject: Are Obliterators worth their new points cost?
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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I'd definitely say no, but I also fully believe the units in that box were pre-CA18 etc. I think they'll all see a points drop later this year.
I'd say, despite amazing guns, they're probably 85-95 a model realistically.
Personally I don't care about the new models so I'll be fielding my old Oblits with old stats and points costs.
PS: Yes you did miss something, if you skipped the two additional shots, the bonus toughness, and the bonus wound...it's more than some close combat weapons.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/02 17:30:49
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2019/04/02 17:42:35
Subject: Are Obliterators worth their new points cost?
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Walking Dead Wraithlord
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arent they the same cost but improves stat line ??
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2019/04/02 17:54:41
Subject: Are Obliterators worth their new points cost?
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Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot
On moon miranda.
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They should really be more like 85/90pts at their current stats, not 115. They are really expensive for what they offer.
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IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
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The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts. |
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2019/04/02 17:56:55
Subject: Are Obliterators worth their new points cost?
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Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer
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Yes and no. Shadowspear had them as unit size 1-3 at 115ppm. The CSM Codex 2.0 has what is likely a typo and lists them back at 65ppm with a unit size of 3. RAW, Codex 2.0 is the most recent publication so technically until it's FAQ'd yes, they are the same cost but improved stats and require 3 models in a unit.
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- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame |
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2019/04/02 17:58:48
Subject: Re:Are Obliterators worth their new points cost?
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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Only a couple of internet-RAW blowhards will use that excuse. They're 115 points a model and 1-3 in a unit. The new CSM codex simply copy-pasted the old Obliterator entry, so ignore it.
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2019/04/02 18:02:23
Subject: Re:Are Obliterators worth their new points cost?
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Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer
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Elbows wrote:Only a couple of internet- RAW blowhards will use that excuse. They're 115 points a model and 1-3 in a unit. The new CSM codex simply copy-pasted the old Obliterator entry, so ignore it. Yes, but by RAW GW says the latest publication takes precedence. So they are technically correct (the best kind of correct) and many stores, including my own, are ruling that the Codex takes precedence until FAQ'd for events. So, for example, there is a tournament next weekend. Unless it's FAQ'd beforehand, Obliterators are 65ppm with a unit size of 3 until otherwise stated, because that's RAW.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/02 18:03:02
- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame |
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2019/04/02 18:06:56
Subject: Re:Are Obliterators worth their new points cost?
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Frightnening Fiend of Slaanesh
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Elbows wrote:Only a couple of internet- RAW blowhards will use that excuse. They're 115 points a model and 1-3 in a unit. The new CSM codex simply copy-pasted the old Obliterator entry, so ignore it.
Sorry to argue with you but the datasheet is the new one, the points at the back seem to be out but as it stands obliterators are 65 ppm and 3 in a unit
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2019/04/02 18:13:40
Subject: Are Obliterators worth their new points cost?
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Walking Dead Wraithlord
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Yeah i would argue that some mini book you get with shadowspear is not going to take precedence over the actual codex that was published afterwards.
GW is at it again.... *Sigh*
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2019/04/02 18:17:05
Subject: Re:Are Obliterators worth their new points cost?
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Norn Queen
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Samuhell wrote: Elbows wrote:Only a couple of internet- RAW blowhards will use that excuse. They're 115 points a model and 1-3 in a unit. The new CSM codex simply copy-pasted the old Obliterator entry, so ignore it. Sorry to argue with you but the datasheet is the new one, the points at the back seem to be out but as it stands obliterators are 65 ppm and 3 in a unit
"People who follow the rules are bad." Seems legit. I can only hope GW remember to actually fix this.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/02 18:17:36
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2019/04/02 18:20:03
Subject: Re:Are Obliterators worth their new points cost?
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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Samuhell wrote: Elbows wrote:Only a couple of internet- RAW blowhards will use that excuse. They're 115 points a model and 1-3 in a unit. The new CSM codex simply copy-pasted the old Obliterator entry, so ignore it.
Sorry to argue with you but the datasheet is the new one, the points at the back seem to be out but as it stands obliterators are 65 ppm and 3 in a unit
Sure, and people are welcome to hide behind that excuse as they always do with misprintings in books. It doesn't make them any less of a tool in my opinion.
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2019/04/02 18:29:18
Subject: Are Obliterators worth their new points cost?
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Dakka Veteran
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New Oblits are probably the most OP unit in the game at 65 ppm, but they're overpriced at 115 ppm.
They should probably be around 85-95 ppm with their new profile.
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5500 pts
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2019/04/02 18:29:34
Subject: Re:Are Obliterators worth their new points cost?
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Frightnening Fiend of Slaanesh
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Elbows wrote: Samuhell wrote: Elbows wrote:Only a couple of internet- RAW blowhards will use that excuse. They're 115 points a model and 1-3 in a unit. The new CSM codex simply copy-pasted the old Obliterator entry, so ignore it.
Sorry to argue with you but the datasheet is the new one, the points at the back seem to be out but as it stands obliterators are 65 ppm and 3 in a unit
Sure, and people are welcome to hide behind that excuse as they always do with misprintings in books. It doesn't make them any less of a tool in my opinion.
Wow, so as it stands mate you're going to throw insults for people playing RAW. I'd think about your approach to gaming. I'm using my book not some pamphlet from a box game I haven't bought. Your attitude stinks
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2019/04/02 18:32:48
Subject: Are Obliterators worth their new points cost?
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Dakka Veteran
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Playing RAW when you know it's not RAI and will (or at the very least, should) get errata:ed would make you a TFG in my gaming-circle.
Of course, this being dakka, I expect the RAI-community to be in the minority.
In before "But how do you know that the new RAW-rules aren't RAI? "
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/02 18:33:54
5500 pts
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2019/04/02 18:35:04
Subject: Are Obliterators worth their new points cost?
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Norn Queen
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MinscS2 wrote:Playing RAW when you know it's not RAI and will (or at the very least, should) get errata:ed would make you a TFG in my gaming-circle.
Of course, this being dakka, I expect the RAI-community to be in the minority.
In before "But how do you know that the new RAW-rules aren't RAI? "
But seriously, how do you know? Reductio ad absurdum is no longer applicable to 8th edition, so we have literally no way of knowing what GW is intending.
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2019/04/02 18:36:16
Subject: Re:Are Obliterators worth their new points cost?
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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Elbows wrote: Samuhell wrote: Elbows wrote:Only a couple of internet- RAW blowhards will use that excuse. They're 115 points a model and 1-3 in a unit. The new CSM codex simply copy-pasted the old Obliterator entry, so ignore it.
Sorry to argue with you but the datasheet is the new one, the points at the back seem to be out but as it stands obliterators are 65 ppm and 3 in a unit
Sure, and people are welcome to hide behind that excuse as they always do with misprintings in books. It doesn't make them any less of a tool in my opinion.
Ignoring their very correct sticking to the most recent rules, think of it this way, if a new player buys that codex and plays them at 65pts each with the improved stats, how are you going to tell them that they are doing it wrong, there is no FAQ that supports you yet and its very likely that the FAQ will fix it, not everyone who plays them by what we call RAW is a tool.
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2019/04/02 18:36:40
Subject: Are Obliterators worth their new points cost?
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle
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I'd say that it's probably going to be FAQ'd, but HOPEFULLY to 85-95 points, and NOT 115.
Because at 115... They're not awful. But they're not very good either.
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Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! |
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2019/04/02 18:37:53
Subject: Are Obliterators worth their new points cost?
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Frightnening Fiend of Slaanesh
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MinscS2 wrote:Playing RAW when you know it's not RAI and will (or at the very least, should) get errata:ed would make you a TFG in my gaming-circle.
Of course, this being dakka, I expect the RAI-community to be in the minority.
In before "But how do you know that the new RAW-rules aren't RAI? "
Definitely they are going to be FAQ'd and I don't think their intent is the current pricing being correct however until we get further clarification on what exactly GW intend we have to use the most current rules. I don't personally agree with them nor do I agree with the Shadowspear prices (which appear too high IMHO)
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2019/04/02 18:42:57
Subject: Are Obliterators worth their new points cost?
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle
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Samuhell wrote: MinscS2 wrote:Playing RAW when you know it's not RAI and will (or at the very least, should) get errata:ed would make you a TFG in my gaming-circle.
Of course, this being dakka, I expect the RAI-community to be in the minority.
In before "But how do you know that the new RAW-rules aren't RAI? "
Definitely they are going to be FAQ'd and I don't think their intent is the current pricing being correct however until we get further clarification on what exactly GW intend we have to use the most current rules. I don't personally agree with them nor do I agree with the Shadowspear prices (which appear too high IMHO)
And that's kinda the issue. While it's almost a given that RAI is not 65 PPM, is 115 the RAI either? One's too low, the other's too high.
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Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! |
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2019/04/02 18:45:27
Subject: Are Obliterators worth their new points cost?
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Frightnening Fiend of Slaanesh
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JNAProductions wrote: Samuhell wrote: MinscS2 wrote:Playing RAW when you know it's not RAI and will (or at the very least, should) get errata:ed would make you a TFG in my gaming-circle.
Of course, this being dakka, I expect the RAI-community to be in the minority.
In before "But how do you know that the new RAW-rules aren't RAI? "
Definitely they are going to be FAQ'd and I don't think their intent is the current pricing being correct however until we get further clarification on what exactly GW intend we have to use the most current rules. I don't personally agree with them nor do I agree with the Shadowspear prices (which appear too high IMHO)
And that's kinda the issue. While it's almost a given that RAI is not 65 PPM, is 115 the RAI either? One's too low, the other's too high.
I know, personally I haven't used oblits but the witch hunt attitude is putting me off playing with them to avoid the crap. it's a crying shame as the new models are awesome
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2019/04/02 18:54:46
Subject: Are Obliterators worth their new points cost?
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Omnipotent Necron Overlord
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JNAProductions wrote: Samuhell wrote: MinscS2 wrote:Playing RAW when you know it's not RAI and will (or at the very least, should) get errata:ed would make you a TFG in my gaming-circle.
Of course, this being dakka, I expect the RAI-community to be in the minority.
In before "But how do you know that the new RAW-rules aren't RAI? "
Definitely they are going to be FAQ'd and I don't think their intent is the current pricing being correct however until we get further clarification on what exactly GW intend we have to use the most current rules. I don't personally agree with them nor do I agree with the Shadowspear prices (which appear too high IMHO)
And that's kinda the issue. While it's almost a given that RAI is not 65 PPM, is 115 the RAI either? One's too low, the other's too high.
Cents say hi.
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If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder |
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2019/04/02 18:55:45
Subject: Are Obliterators worth their new points cost?
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle
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Yes, Cents aren't good. Your point?
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Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! |
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2019/04/02 18:58:02
Subject: Re:Are Obliterators worth their new points cost?
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Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter
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I did some comparative math regarding their cost efficiency back when the cost was first previewed.
The short answer is that you're getting a better unit for units of 1 or 3 Obliterators, but it's less efficient to run 2, which happens to be the number in the box.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/02 19:09:11
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! |
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2019/04/02 18:58:09
Subject: Are Obliterators worth their new points cost?
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Dakka Veteran
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When unclear situations like this arise, and there are 2 potential ways to play a unit, my motto is "Play them with the way that is the least powerful" - Better to cheat yourself than your opponent.
It was the same when Necron Command Barges by RAW had a 3++ back in 5th (I think, might have been 6th) due to a piece of wargear. GW quite quickly errata:ed it to only work on the Necron Overlord when he was on foot, but for a short time, Barges with 3++ was a pretty common sight. I (and some others in my gaming-circle) refused to play them with a 3++. Evidently we played it right, but even if we hadn't, it would've only been to our own detriment, and not to that of our opponent.
Now if you want to play with Oblits but are put off by the uncertainty, play them as 115 ppm with a unit-size of 1-3.
At least for until the April-FAQ drops.
No one is gonna dislike you for paying 115 ppm, regardless if they end up costing 115 ppm or 65 ppm in the end, but people will (understandably imo) have issues with you paying 65 ppm if they end up going "back" to 115 ppm.
Afraid of a heated pre-game argument? Don't give your opponent a reason to argue.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/02 18:59:57
5500 pts
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2019/04/02 19:01:17
Subject: Are Obliterators worth their new points cost?
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Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine
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I really don't know what the "final" price of oblits will be (I don't think it will be either 65 or 115). The codex is clearly a holdover/typo and the Shadowspear price is tenuous as many price points of their one off game systems seem to be aimed at internal balance of the box itself and get amended later. I would say 90-100 range is about right for them. Until they get their "final" price tag, I will be running with the Shadowpear price/numbers as that seems to be a bit more in line with the intent. I certainly won't let someone take a single model at 65 though, that's rules min/maxing at it worst picking and choosing rules in an unethical way.
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/04/02 19:07:13
Help me, Rhonda. HA! |
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2019/04/02 19:11:39
Subject: Are Obliterators worth their new points cost?
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Khorne Veteran Marine with Chain-Axe
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Currently they are at 65, and the argument with the "Everyone should know..." "its common knowledge that..." Is straight garbage. By same faulty logic you could say "everyone should know matched play is unbalanced and you really shouldnt be playing it, so play open play until the april FAQ is out."
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/02 19:12:23
6000 World Eaters/Khorne |
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2019/04/02 19:15:33
Subject: Are Obliterators worth their new points cost?
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Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer
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The problem with pointing out RAI, in this case, is that Shadowspear is not something everyone may have. The Codex is. If someone has Obliterators already, and bought the new Codex (let's say they came back to the game) and turns up for a game, what? You tell them they're cheating because a different boxed set that they didn't hear of (that is, as of this writing, temporarily out of stock) changed the points but the codex was reprinted with the old points?
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- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame |
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2019/04/02 19:20:15
Subject: Are Obliterators worth their new points cost?
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Omnipotent Necron Overlord
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Cents aren't actually good. They are good when buffed by a 400 point unit only. Utterly garbage without. A cent with 2 LC has about 1/2 of the firepower of an oblit - with less wounds - no invun - less mobility - no deepstrike. This is also after a points drop in the last CA. Lets also keep in mind 0 stratagem support ether. Oblitz are shooting twice at +1 to wound. The only playable way to use cents is with dakka build - which isn't exactly point and click win like oblitz. 1 shooting basically anything with a decent roll.
Lets get real. Can you honestly tell me you'd rather have a Dev cent with 2 LC and a missile launcher over an oblitz with the new point cost?
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If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder |
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2019/04/02 19:22:08
Subject: Are Obliterators worth their new points cost?
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle
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Xenomancers wrote:
Cents aren't actually good. They are good when buffed by a 400 point unit only. Utterly garbage without. A cent with 2 LC has about 1/2 of the firepower of an oblit - with less wounds - no invun - less mobility - no deepstrike. This is also after a points drop in the last CA. Lets also keep in mind 0 stratagem support ether. Oblitz are shooting twice at +1 to wound. The only playable way to use cents is with dakka build - which isn't exactly point and click win like oblitz. 1 shooting basically anything with a decent roll.
Lets get real. Can you honestly tell me you'd rather have a Dev cent with 2 LC and a missile launcher over an oblitz with the new point cost?
I... I literally said "Cents aren't good."
As in, are not good.
As in, bad.
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Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! |
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