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Unless I just missed it in the codex, how are legions organized on the chaos side?

I am trying to plan my Black Legion force and I'm trying to decide if there is any point at all to mirroring a force organization al a space marines, or if I should just treat them as random groups.

 Togusa wrote:
Unless I just missed it in the codex, how are legions organized on the chaos side?

I am trying to plan my Black Legion force and I'm trying to decide if there is any point at all to mirroring a force organization al a space marines, or if I should just treat them as random groups.

Ohhh this is a can of worms that really depends on the legions themselves:

Some like WE and EC are Shattered shadows and mercs:

Others like the BL are organized by mother legion but lead by a trusted leader from abbadaby which will send his personal executioner after you if you conspiere against him or fail.

Others like the WB and IW are heavily organized still.

AL: well we all know the meme but the al works less like a legion anyways and more like a unholly crossover of IRA, IS, Taliban, Partisans and guerillos and some groups might even be closet loyalists.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
Unless I just missed it in the codex, how are legions organized on the chaos side?

I am trying to plan my Black Legion force and I'm trying to decide if there is any point at all to mirroring a force organization al a space marines, or if I should just treat them as random groups.

Ohhh this is a can of worms that really depends on the legions themselves:

Some like WE and EC are Shattered shadows and mercs:

Others like the BL are organized by mother legion but lead by a trusted leader from abbadaby which will send his personal executioner after you if you conspiere against him or fail.

Others like the WB and IW are heavily organized still.

AL: well we all know the meme but the al works less like a legion anyways and more like a unholly crossover of IRA, IS, Taliban, Partisans and guerillos and some groups might even be closet loyalists.

So they do not mark things like:

1st company
2nd company

Etc?

Generally not. The organization of each Warband is ultimately dependent on the Warrior Leading it.

Some might organize themselves similar to a Company. But you'll end up with a mix match of guys where ever they feel like going.

Adhoc in the fullest sense.

 Togusa wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
Unless I just missed it in the codex, how are legions organized on the chaos side?

I am trying to plan my Black Legion force and I'm trying to decide if there is any point at all to mirroring a force organization al a space marines, or if I should just treat them as random groups.

Ohhh this is a can of worms that really depends on the legions themselves:

Some like WE and EC are Shattered shadows and mercs:

Others like the BL are organized by mother legion but lead by a trusted leader from abbadaby which will send his personal executioner after you if you conspiere against him or fail.

Others like the WB and IW are heavily organized still.

AL: well we all know the meme but the al works less like a legion anyways and more like a unholly crossover of IRA, IS, Taliban, Partisans and guerillos and some groups might even be closet loyalists.

So they do not mark things like:

1st company
2nd company

Etc?

Most do not, AL has their host structure nobody knows how that works excactly, WB IW probably field bigger units on average then companies.

Bl works via incorporated and sometimes competing lords with their warbands.

DG have their fleet structure.

So overall no, not really, closest to such structures you might get would be when a order turns completely, but then due to the might makes right situation the company leaders might form warbands etc.

Also red Corsairs are highly organized legion strength, however mostly focused on void fighting so there's that.

yeah well some legions seem to retain some sembalance of order within them, death guard, 1k sons and word bearers for example, by and large order has broken, with the units involved being little more then warbands. A warband might claim to be "the 3rd company of the Night Lords Legion" but there's no greater legion orginization, over time this war band will evolve, as the leader of this third company experiments and changes his structure without any over riding person issuing demands.

the black legion isn't a unified force to begin with, but rather is a host of various scattered warbands that all owe fealty to Abbaddon. one black Legionare warlord could be a Warlord who has read the codex Astartes and thinks "this has some good ideas" and has adapted it to his purposes. Another lord could be a mad tinkerer who is accompanies by a small number of body guard marines but mostly just throws deamon engines of his own creation at the foe. Yet another could be "The great Witch King" and is a chaos sorcrerer who throws hoards of fanatical cultists at his foes augmented by posessed and summoned deamons. etc.

in short it's all up to the whim of the warband leader, Abaddon cares not, so long as you are sucessful

They aren't. Unless someone like Abby comes along, but even then they still aren't organised like a traditional army.. The clue is in the name.

You can justify basically any organization for any Legion.

Even for the EC and WE you can still field hundreds of grunts.

With gay abandon!

Joking aside, it depends on the legion. Iron Warriors for example will be much more adherent to traditional drill and discipline/march and formations, etc, whereas Night Lords would be more interested in psychological and terror tactics, Alpha Legion more focused on guerilla and paramilitary tactics, Emperor's Children and World Eaters probably the least traditionally organised and more just unrstrained and undiscplined, brutal, chaotic slaughter and destruction, etc.

I see. Well I was primarily asking for painting sake, if I needed to treat each set of models as

1st Company, 5th platoon, 9th squad "Garruks Bloody Fist" lead by Aspiring Champion Garruk the Bloody Fist.

 Togusa wrote:
I see. Well I was primarily asking for painting sake, if I needed to treat each set of models as

1st Company, 5th platoon, 9th squad "Garruks Bloody Fist" lead by Aspiring Champion Garruk the Bloody Fist.

Nah there are cases when warbands joined abbadons bl that they f.e.retain original colour helmets or shoulder pads but overall no.

(except you go and make specific subwarbands, that is a whole other story)

 Togusa wrote:
I see. Well I was primarily asking for painting sake, if I needed to treat each set of models as

1st Company, 5th platoon, 9th squad "Garruks Bloody Fist" lead by Aspiring Champion Garruk the Bloody Fist.

You can do what you want, you're only limited by your imagination.

Loosely at best. The Iron Warriors, Word Bearers and Death Guard are the three Legions which are commonly cited as having retained much of their former organisation.

The Black Legion is a collection of warbands of varying size - from a few dozen to a chapter or greater in size - that answers Abaddon's call when required. That's it - other than wearing the black in some form and answering the call, there is rno equired similarity between warbands, so you have total freedom to do what you like.

 Togusa wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
Unless I just missed it in the codex, how are legions organized on the chaos side?

I am trying to plan my Black Legion force and I'm trying to decide if there is any point at all to mirroring a force organization al a space marines, or if I should just treat them as random groups.

Ohhh this is a can of worms that really depends on the legions themselves:

Some like WE and EC are Shattered shadows and mercs:

Others like the BL are organized by mother legion but lead by a trusted leader from abbadaby which will send his personal executioner after you if you conspiere against him or fail.

Others like the WB and IW are heavily organized still.

AL: well we all know the meme but the al works less like a legion anyways and more like a unholly crossover of IRA, IS, Taliban, Partisans and guerillos and some groups might even be closet loyalists.

So they do not mark things like:

1st company
2nd company

Etc?

Night lords are very distinctive when it comes to makring positions , like first claw, third talon, etc. Iron Warriors are rigidly organized into companies that fight among each other. Losers of intercine conflicts often go their own way as raiders, scavengers, mercs, etc.

Other forces are more chaotic. EC tend to go with grand eloquent titles and designations but fracture at the drop of a feather.

In the end I suppose that chaos represents a total Darwinian situation where the forces that do what works survive and others die. Also, those that attract the favor of a chaos power or even a god will have advantages in surviving.

 Marshal Loss wrote:
Loosely at best. The Iron Warriors, Word Bearers and Death Guard are the three Legions which are commonly cited as having retained much of their former organisation.

The Black Legion is a collection of warbands of varying size - from a few dozen to a chapter or greater in size - that answers Abaddon's call when required. That's it - other than wearing the black in some form and answering the call, there is required similarity between warbands, so you have total freedom to do what you like.

So a warband is things like "Iron Warriors/Death Guard/Emperors Children?

 Stormatious wrote:

 Marshal Loss wrote:
Loosely at best. The Iron Warriors, Word Bearers and Death Guard are the three Legions which are commonly cited as having retained much of their former organisation.

The Black Legion is a collection of warbands of varying size - from a few dozen to a chapter or greater in size - that answers Abaddon's call when required. That's it - other than wearing the black in some form and answering the call, there is required similarity between warbands, so you have total freedom to do what you like.

So a warband is things like "Iron Warriors/Death Guard/Emperors Children?

Sorry, I don't quite understand the question - are you asking whether there are warbands of Black Legion who are all completely from one Legion (e.g. a warband of ex-Iron Warriors who have taken the black)? Or if there are warbands of Iron Warriors/Death Guard/Emperor's Children? The answer to both questions would be yes.

Basically, the Iron Warriors Death Guard and Word Bearers have retained much of their old coherence. They still organise themselves to some degree in hosts/companies, have a Legion High Command of some description, etc. They are also still quite large. This doesn't go for every group of Word Bearers in existence, but by and large they're still "Legions" rather than fragmented parts of a greater, lost-whole.

Other lesser Legions (Alpha Legion, Thousand Sons, Night Lords, World Eaters, Emperor's Children) don't have the numbers or organisation to really compare with the three above (in addition to the Black Legion). That doesn't mean they can't unite occasionally, e.g. TS at Fenris, but they are repeatedly cited as no longer possessing their former organisation. Their warbands might be formed out of old companies and still refer to themselves as such, or they might be something completely new led by a charismatic leader. Their members still identify as members of a Legion but they don't operate as one.

The Black Legion, conversely, is made up entirely of various warbands who are all sworn to Abaddon. Some might be all ex-Sons of Horus, some might be a mix of various traitors or renegades who have taken the black.. Some might be ex-Iron Warriors who fight exactly as they used to when they wore silver, now while wearing the black. The only similarities between any of these is their sworn allegiance to Abaddon over that of their old Legion and Primarch. You can essentially take any Legion, paint it black, and use it as BL with a twist. Pretty cool stuff.

There is infinite room for gray areas here; the above are more guidelines than concrete rules. Lords of Silence by Chris Wraight has a great scene where all the Traitor Legions arrive for the assault on Cadia, noting their respective organisation (or lack thereof).

No, they are all Legions.

'Warbands' are a much smaller, much looser organisation of Heretic Astartes who formerly belonged to a Legion.

Sort of, kind of, because at one point the EC were only 200 strong and a warband could, in theory, comprise many thousands of former Legionnaires and Renegades.

think of it this way, and I'm simplifying, massssssivly here.a Legion for chaos marines is much like a legion for loyalists, their heresy era orgin, it dictates who their primarch was, and some of their inclinations. A warband is like a space marine chapter (although a warband is often smaller then a chapter. although it can vary a warband is useally the size of a space marine company or less, but some of the big ones can be REAAALLY big) and yes some space marine chapters, like chaos warbands cleave tight to their heresy era orgins, others of course are divergent, and some simply have no known connection, to any of the original founders

 Techpriestsupport wrote:



Night lords are very distinctive when it comes to makring positions , like first claw, third talon, etc.

Even that is likely to depend on the Warband. We know that the Warband of the Exalted and Warband of Talos worked like that.

In terms of organization the Legions of the Great Crusade had massive logistical support and administration, whereas the Legions of the Long War are scavengers fighting over the scraps left over from the Great Crusade, and bolstering what little they have by bartering with daemons for power or enslaving them.

Aaron Dembski-Bowden's Night Lords are a great example of this, in that the Warband of the Exalted were so poor they couldn't even hunt their slaves for funsies anymore. By contrast Chris Wraight's Death Guard have everything they need provided for by Nurgle should they pay close attention to the numbers and look after each other the way Nurgle intended.

From what reading I've done regarding the IW, they are a partly fractured legion in the aftermath of their civil war. Many of their old companies have either been killed off, or have splintered into smaller warbands that operate independently from their Primarch.

My own warband is that of the Steel Brethren - one of the surviving bands of the IW civil war. They are said to have taken part in the siege of Vraks alongside several other traitor leagions, where they captured a number of relic Valdor Tank Hunters to use for their own devices. After the siege was broken by the loyalist scum, the Steel Brethren and their ship - the Ferrum Invictus - were allegedly sucked into the Warp. That at least is where the lore ends and the story of my warband begins.

From what I know, both lore-wise and game-wise, they're organized similarly to the Space Marine Legions you would see from the Horus Heresy, maybe researching from there will help you, as I'm no expert on traitor legions.

Chaos Space Marine warbands can be any size you want - from a dozen Marines (so roughly a squad) to hundreds (enough to be represented by your entire 40k army). Paint them as you like. Other than their armour being mostly blak, you've got complete freedom when it comes to Black Legion. Gold trim, steel or silver trim, or even black all over if you want. members of other legions and renegades have joined the Black Legion, and original Sons of Horus legionaries have taken up the worship of one or more Chaos gods, so you can have Plague Marines, Berserkers and Noise Marines in the colours of the Black Legion. Perhaps those Plague marines are Death Guard who now follow Abaddon instead of Mortarion, or perhaps they're Sons of Horus who worship Nurgle.

(I would say, doing that might be confusing to your opponent if you've got some units in a Black legion detachment, some in a World Eaters detachment and some in a Death Guard detachment all painted the same, but that's a matter to discuss with your friends, not here)

The Death Guard are also pretty fragmented. There is a large core of the Legion remaining as a single force under the command of Mortarion (although the various formations within the Legion can have a variety of organisations and colour schemes), but there are also other Warbands who operated independently. They may be allies of enemies of Mortarion. Then there are Plague Marines who were never Death Guard legionaries.

Likewise with followers of Khorne and Slaanesh - I'm pretty sure all the World Eaters are now reduced to Berserkers of Khorne, but not every Berserker is a World Eater, and not every follower of Khorne is a Berserker (the Crimson Slaughter, for example, still manage to fight with more organised and varied formations). Amongst the worshippers of the Lord of Excess, some Emperor's Children are Noise Marines, but not all, and there are almost certainly some Noise Marines who once were renegades from other Chapters.

The Thousand Sons are an odd case; all of Magnus' Legionaries are either sorcerors or automata. Even there, some sorcerors have joined Abaddon and painted the armour black, with their undead retinue following suit. There are also more recent renegades who follow Tzeentch, so living Tzeentch-worshipping Chaos Marines are perfectly acceptable.